Champion points in non-vet Overpowered

c0rp

halfbadger wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

No one has close to 700 CP. CP is not even the problem. The problem was ZoS allowing PC folk to transfer those toons over at LAUNCH instead of a few months down the road.

Plenty of people have over 700 CPs.
People with high CPs are extremely powerful in the non-vet campaigns on the PC.

Lol no they don't .... Maybe 400 no where close to 700...

If we are going to make up numbers then some people actually have over 5500 CPs right now

You are the one making up numbers lol

Rune_Relic

nooneonboard wrote: »

I thought CP arent applied on non vet char (Lv 1-50) but VR1-14?

Only Vet players can earn CP.
Any and all level ALTs can use all those CP.

TequilaFire

Trust me my Night's Silence/Hunding's Rage crafted purple sets plus food do far more for my noob NBs stamina pool/ weapon damage and sustain than my paltry CPs.

I guess that I have a vet crafter that can make these sets for my non-vet is also unfair by purist's terms.

Cernow

TequilaFire wrote: »

Trust me my Night's Silence/Hunding's Rage crafted purple sets plus food do far more for my noob NBs stamina pool/ weapon damage and sustain than my paltry CPs.

I guess that I have a vet crafter that can make these sets for my non-vet is also unfair by purist's terms.

You do realise that the quality of armour doesn't matter in non-vet? So crafting purples is a waste. You'll get the same stats from the battle leveling system with white crafted gear as from purple crafted gear.

Armour enchants also don't matter, the battle leveling system over-writes those. You'll get the same stamina, magicka and health pools with un-enchanted gear as wearing gear with top enchants.

What does matter are traits and set bonuses, at least those that work in non-vet, not all do.

Some of the 6-trait set bonuses do make a big difference and are out of new players reach (Hundings, Willows etc). There are some easy to obtain options for newer players though, 2 and 3 trait sets like Nights Silence and Seducer.

Hexos

I have very few CP, probably around 25 and i have them hap hazzardly spread out. I have no 10 point passives. This weekend I took my lvl 40 Sorc into blackwater and absolutely wrecked face. I never lost a 1v1, or a 1v2. versus 3 or 4 i could stay alive and usually escape or lead them into help.

Here's my point, Im not an amazing PvPer. Im only Rank 5. But I had a solid build, crafted "green" gear set and a year of general ESO exerience behind my belt. That made the difference....not CP.

As i read you post i can't help but think, I wonder if all those guys i defeat thought "That guy must have 700 CP" thats why i lost. When it was more likely that you lost because you dropped a Blood Altar at the beginning of the fight.

TequilaFire

Cernow wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Trust me my Night's Silence/Hunding's Rage crafted purple sets plus food do far more for my noob NBs stamina pool/ weapon damage and sustain than my paltry CPs.

I guess that I have a vet crafter that can make these sets for my non-vet is also unfair by purist's terms.

You do realise that the quality of armour doesn't matter in non-vet? So crafting purples is a waste. You'll get the same stats from the battle leveling system with white crafted gear as from purple crafted gear.

Armour enchants also don't matter, the battle leveling system over-writes those. You'll get the same stamina, magicka and health pools with un-enchanted gear as wearing gear with top enchants.

What does matter are traits and set bonuses, at least those that work in non-vet, not all do.

Some of the 6-trait set bonuses do make a big difference and are out of new players reach (Hundings, Willows etc). There are some easy to obtain options for newer players though, 2 and 3 trait sets like Nights Silence and Seducer.

I don't only play in non vet, so I craft for all modes I play.

BuggeX

France Player, known to have the most Cp Eu - this was some weaks ago.

drogon1

Personally I prefer the inequality in PvP. (Disclaimer - I have 90 CP, and got to 90 for the extra crit - and I also mainly PvP non-vet.) Those more dedicated to the game should get small advantages in PvP, that can make the diff in an otherwise completely equal fight. It's a matter of balance to ensure that those advantages are comparatively small, and not game-breaking.

12% extra crit is borderline game-breaking imho, but not quite game-breaking.

The important thing is that PvP skill can negate the CP difference, and that fights still need to played well by high CP skilled players to be won. CP that leads to faceroll will damage the game. Decreasing returns on CP is designed to prevent this.

Think of it this way: isn't it fun to find and defeat higher CP players with skill alone? So for me the issue is to ensure that CP advantages are viable but not faceroll.

halfbadger

drogon1 wrote: »

Personally I prefer the inequality in PvP. (Disclaimer - I have 90 CP, and got to 90 for the extra crit - and I also mainly PvP non-vet.) Those more dedicated to the game should get small advantages in PvP, that can make the diff in an otherwise completely equal fight. It's a matter of balance to ensure that those advantages are comparatively small, and not game-breaking.

12% extra crit is borderline game-breaking imho, but not quite game-breaking.

The important thing is that PvP skill can negate the CP difference, and that fights still need to played well by high CP skilled players to be won. CP that leads to faceroll will damage the game. Decreasing returns on CP is designed to prevent this.

Think of it this way: isn't it fun to find and defeat higher CP players with skill alone? So for me the issue is to ensure that CP advantages are viable but not faceroll.

Defeating a player that has double your effective health and deals double the damage you do and doesn't run out of resources is not possible.

WarlordWoody22

You know my first character just hit VR, I can honestly say, in non veteran campaign I never had a problem with this and did very well for myself as a 36 NB, never had any problems untill I hit a veteran campaign

Paradox

Anyone defending the use of champion points on the nonvet server clearly cares nothing for the game or its success, ad nonvet is the first introduction to pvp for new players. You want to roll dodge infinitely? You want to destroy people with spell pen? Go to vet. Nonetheless is for new players, and old players who want to feel the game like is was before they ruined it with the currently fubar cp system.

Remove cp from Blackwater or we're just gonna see more total imbalance and a loss of players... This time not even due to a lack of new content. Just a lack of intelligence to remove Champion Points from a server in which most have none.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Cernow wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Trust me my Night's Silence/Hunding's Rage crafted purple sets plus food do far more for my noob NBs stamina pool/ weapon damage and sustain than my paltry CPs.

I guess that I have a vet crafter that can make these sets for my non-vet is also unfair by purist's terms.

You do realise that the quality of armour doesn't matter in non-vet? So crafting purples is a waste. You'll get the same stats from the battle leveling system with white crafted gear as from purple crafted gear.

Armour enchants also don't matter, the battle leveling system over-writes those. You'll get the same stamina, magicka and health pools with un-enchanted gear as wearing gear with top enchants.

What does matter are traits and set bonuses, at least those that work in non-vet, not all do.

Some of the 6-trait set bonuses do make a big difference and are out of new players reach (Hundings, Willows etc). There are some easy to obtain options for newer players though, 2 and 3 trait sets like Nights Silence and Seducer.

Get youreself 5 pieces of blue divines Hundings Rage and the Warrior mundus. When you upgrade it to purple you'll see your weapon damage increase, so it does matter.

Or look at weapons, I'm pretty sure my sharpened legendary masters greatsword will do more damage than any blue crafted sword.

mcurley

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Or look at weapons, I'm pretty sure my sharpened legendary masters greatsword will do more damage than any blue crafted sword.

The only thing making the difference is the trait. The legendary masters sword will only penetrate 4% more than any blue sword with the same trait. The damage is the same besides that. So if you can afford it, then go ahead and use all golden gear for the traits... but for most players it is not worth the investment.

As far as the hundings goes... 5pc bonues still work, so the higher quality items will still give more weapon damage from hundings. Still though... how much gold is that extra weapon power worth?

KatzMainTank

Comes to complain about CP being OP...

6 months later...

Comes to complain about CP being useless and underpowered...

Cathexis

Gotta reward those long term, grind happy players with severely imbalanced reward, otherwise how will the game discriminate against casuals and new players?

KatzMainTank

Cathexis wrote: »

Gotta reward those long term, grind happy players with severely imbalanced reward, otherwise how will the game discriminate against casuals and new players?

Maybe the Destiny model would be better? The guy on the bottom of the scoreboard gets all teh lootz n powerz?

...mmmm, nope.

Joy_Division

Cernow wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Trust me my Night's Silence/Hunding's Rage crafted purple sets plus food do far more for my noob NBs stamina pool/ weapon damage and sustain than my paltry CPs.

I guess that I have a vet crafter that can make these sets for my non-vet is also unfair by purist's terms.

You do realise that the quality of armour doesn't matter in non-vet? So crafting purples is a waste. You'll get the same stats from the battle leveling system with white crafted gear as from purple crafted gear.

This is not true. Those cheese-stacking nirn derive more benefit.

k2blader

Hi, yep, some people called this before 1.6 and were laughed at. It's just common sense CPs in nonvet is a bad idea. Not sure why Zeni thought/thinks it's ok? If the max-levels-since-a-year-ago want to play nonvet, they still have the advantage of experience and resources without CPs. Nonvet should be a place where newer players can enjoy and learn at the same-- not a place where CP-twinked max-levels can ruin their fun. If people want to do that, man up and do it in vet. Doing that in nonvet is like a 10 year-old stealing a toddler's toys-- it's not "skill" in any way.

[edit]
Yeah, and even at lamers who claim "CPs don't matter cuz it's gear sets": Duh. You think newer players reached the point they can craft as uber gear as you? Please grow a brainstem. :-)

bowmanz607

here is the thing. there will not be new players forever. there was a new influx of players which will start to die down. pretty soon there really wont be any new players, but old players starting new characters. this means everyone will have champion points and will benefit from them.

sadownik

bowmanz607 wrote: »

here is the thing. there will not be new players forever. there was a new influx of players which will start to die down. pretty soon there really wont be any new players, but old players starting new characters. this means everyone will have champion points and will benefit from them.

There is thread right now - a player claiming to have 1000 cp points. If and thats a big if, so if its true that player compared to someone like me with 48 cp points is unreachable. But we will ee how it playes out (badly im afraid).

Emma_Overload

sadownik wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

here is the thing. there will not be new players forever. there was a new influx of players which will start to die down. pretty soon there really wont be any new players, but old players starting new characters. this means everyone will have champion points and will benefit from them.

There is thread right now - a player claiming to have 1000 cp points. If and thats a big if, so if its true that player compared to someone like me with 48 cp points is unreachable. But we will ee how it playes out (badly im afraid).

LOL @ "unreachable"!

This is such faulty logic. That guy with 1000 CP could quit tomorrow for all you know. I don't quite have 300, yet, but I'm not giving up just because some guy somewhere has more. Britney Spears even made a SONG about this:

You wanna live fancy? Live in a big mansion? Party in France? You better WORK B**CH!

https://youtu.be/pt8VYOfr8To

Stop WHINING and start GRINDING.

bowmanz607

well remember that champ points have a diminishing return(although a gap like that is still big). the point being that as you level it is easier to close the gap then for it to be widened. Also, the majority of players will stick around the same number of points. moreover, i have battled many people with many more champ points then me. the thing is player skill and outsmarting your opponent play a huge role in winning a fight. where champ points makes the difference is two very evenly matched players. over time in a battle between these -players champ points may prove to give the edge.

my point here, however, is that eventually everyone is going to have champ points they are going to want to utilize. once you hit vet pvp you have no choice but to fight those players. non-vet pvp will reach a point where there will be no new players, but all old players. having a campaign where players cannot use the champ points they earned will not be appealing and old players rolling new toons will not have a campaign to fight in to lvl their alliance rank. although i do concede that as of right now and more so earlier on that it does cause some issues for new players. But i have a feeling that by the time ZOS gets around to adjusting this the new player phase will be over. That said, I would like to see a non-vet campaign for champ points and a non-vet campaign for no champ points. perhaps testing this scenario out would be useful.

sadownik

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

here is the thing. there will not be new players forever. there was a new influx of players which will start to die down. pretty soon there really wont be any new players, but old players starting new characters. this means everyone will have champion points and will benefit from them.

There is thread right now - a player claiming to have 1000 cp points. If and thats a big if, so if its true that player compared to someone like me with 48 cp points is unreachable. But we will ee how it playes out (badly im afraid).

LOL @ "unreachable"!

This is such faulty logic. That guy with 1000 CP could quit tomorrow for all you know. I don't quite have 300, yet, but I'm not giving up just because some guy somewhere has more. Britney Spears even made a SONG about this:

You wanna live fancy? Live in a big mansion? Party in France? You better WORK B**CH!

https://youtu.be/pt8VYOfr8To

Stop WHINING and start GRINDING.

Such an eloquency just to say "l2p noob". While it is possible that the player will quit, its also possible that i will stop logging in at all. Granted not a big loss, especially to such skilled players as you. Good luck in Cyrodil though.

sadownik

bowmanz607 wrote: »

well remember that champ points have a diminishing return(although a gap like that is still big). the point being that as you level it is easier to close the gap then for it to be widened. Also, the majority of players will stick around the same number of points. moreover, i have battled many people with many more champ points then me. the thing is player skill and outsmarting your opponent play a huge role in winning a fight. where champ points makes the difference is two very evenly matched players. over time in a battle between these -players champ points may prove to give the edge.

my point here, however, is that eventually everyone is going to have champ points they are going to want to utilize. once you hit vet pvp you have no choice but to fight those players. non-vet pvp will reach a point where there will be no new players, but all old players. having a campaign where players cannot use the champ points they earned will not be appealing and old players rolling new toons will not have a campaign to fight in to lvl their alliance rank. although i do concede that as of right now and more so earlier on that it does cause some issues for new players. But i have a feeling that by the time ZOS gets around to adjusting this the new player phase will be over. That said, I would like to see a non-vet campaign for champ points and a non-vet campaign for no champ points. perhaps testing this scenario out would be useful.

That issue was discussed so often that i am surprised you still play diminishing returns card. Please search this forum for threads that deal with myth of diminishing returns in well argumenetd manner and see by yourself.

bowmanz607

i mean i am not saying it is a HUGE difference only that closing the gap is easier than widening the gap. that is simply just fact. 1% for first champ point .2% for 10th. (obviously not exact). i mean no matter how you shake it diminishing returns is actively present.

sadownik

bowmanz607 wrote: »

i mean i am not saying it is a HUGE difference only that closing the gap is easier than widening the gap. that is simply just fact. 1% for first champ point .2% for 10th. (obviously not exact). i mean no matter how you shake it diminishing returns is actively present.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/181187/lets-have-a-little-discussion-about-cp

Pleae tell me what you think about it. Especially i would like to point this:

"as I keep repeating: the CP power-balance is fine for very low CP players (say 10 CP versus 50 CP) and equally fine for extremely high CP players (say 1200 vs 3600).
it's the middle part of the system were the power differences granted by CP are too strong. Compare what a 1000 CP player can do to what a 350 CP player can do.... And unfortunately, for the next half year - and for every new player daring to actually start with ESO - it's that middle part of the system which is relevant"

k2blader

drogon1 wrote: »

Personally I prefer the inequality in PvP. (Disclaimer - I have 90 CP, and got to 90 for the extra crit - and I also mainly PvP non-vet.) Those more dedicated to the game should get small advantages in PvP, that can make the diff in an otherwise completely equal fight. It's a matter of balance to ensure that those advantages are comparatively small, and not game-breaking.

12% extra crit is borderline game-breaking imho, but not quite game-breaking.

The important thing is that PvP skill can negate the CP difference, and that fights still need to played well by high CP skilled players to be won. CP that leads to faceroll will damage the game. Decreasing returns on CP is designed to prevent this.

Think of it this way: isn't it fun to find and defeat higher CP players with skill alone? So for me the issue is to ensure that CP advantages are viable but not faceroll.

"More dedicated to the game." I guess I disagree. If someone is "less dedicated to the game" but still beats me, (s)he has still beaten me, and it's fine. When you search out opponents in nonvet, do you only pick ones with higher CPs? I will always believe skill comes much more into play in vet campaigns, not nonvet.

Also, the advantage of CPs is generally linear, so it's not just a small advantage as the CP differential increases.

drogon1

k2blader wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

Personally I prefer the inequality in PvP. (Disclaimer - I have 90 CP, and got to 90 for the extra crit - and I also mainly PvP non-vet.) Those more dedicated to the game should get small advantages in PvP, that can make the diff in an otherwise completely equal fight. It's a matter of balance to ensure that those advantages are comparatively small, and not game-breaking.

12% extra crit is borderline game-breaking imho, but not quite game-breaking.

The important thing is that PvP skill can negate the CP difference, and that fights still need to played well by high CP skilled players to be won. CP that leads to faceroll will damage the game. Decreasing returns on CP is designed to prevent this.

Think of it this way: isn't it fun to find and defeat higher CP players with skill alone? So for me the issue is to ensure that CP advantages are viable but not faceroll.

"More dedicated to the game." I guess I disagree. If someone is "less dedicated to the game" but still beats me, (s)he has still beaten me, and it's fine. When you search out opponents in nonvet, do you only pick ones with higher CPs? I will always believe skill comes much more into play in vet campaigns, not nonvet.

Also, the advantage of CPs is generally linear, so it's not just a small advantage as the CP differential increases.

Heyas Shae:)

What I was trying to say is that differences in baseline power are fine to me in PvP, because I believe in some form of PvP progression (I wish champ points were only gotten in PvP - including non-vet PvP - same as AP). I like the DAOC system, where a high ranked PvP player (usually reflecting "dedication" to the game - time played + pvp success) was much harder to take down than a low-ranked PvP player due to the baseline power and ability differences the two would have (PvP ranks could only be obtained from PvP in DAOC, not PvE).

Having said that, I have not done the math, so I do now know exactly how much baseline difference champ points can make to players. If differences between players can be driven up to such extremes such as to significantly impair PvP skill, then this would damage the game. Killing hordes of mooks in PvE should give little PvP advantages to players imo, if any.

TheElementalPlatypus

Heromofo wrote: »

Also i am happy they affect alts it makes the regrind easier of sliver and gold.
For the pvp complainers why not learn to group up and attack as a group as no one is god like........ Or is it their skill?.



To Quote Hircine
"Only the strong will survive as the weak perish beneath them"

Zerg mentality.

Zsymon

Maybe easiest would be to just disable the CP bonuses for that non vet char while it is in the non vet campaign.