A Skill to stop Zergs...But what happens when zergs use it?

LazyLewis

So I remember being in a ZoS meeting many many months ago and Eric Wrobel was describing this new skill to us in the Assault Skill line that would help 'split up the zergs' because of concentrated damage. This skill is Proximity Detonation. So the idea of the skill was awesome because there were huge zerging issues on all sides and sometimes these zergs were unbreakable. Sp of course ZoS Dev's mash their heads together )with the right intentions of course) to come up with a skill that can help split up zergs......But what happens when zergs start using it?

It has become the 'norm' to now try and 'out proxy det' each other. It has become the norm to run into a group and cast Proxy Det then if it fails to kill them a second time they retreat and re try. PvP with organised groups is almost completely revolving around Proxy Det and is dominating the PvP world.

As I said the concept is great but the results are negative.

Bouvin

Reduce AP gains to almost nill for large groups and watch the zerg blogs dissipate.

The problem is they keep trying to "Combat Zergs" instead of figuring out what drives zerg behaviour. And right now.. the fastest way to gain AP is by zerg blobbing, which greatly incentivizes the behaviour.

MisterBigglesworth

I know they can't add player collision, but maybe they could simulate some realistic consequences of trying to move as a big group by having you move 1% slower for each ally within 5 meters (or 0.5% slower per ally within 10 meters).

They could also slightly increase everyone's detection radius while stealthed based on how many people are stacked up.

Getting set off balance or knocked down should, naturally, off-balance or knock down anyone else within 1 meter of you.

LazyLewis

This was an almost full raid using it. Our groups use it aswell in our full groups because we are forced to do so

smtdbplus

it is easy to fix the zerg problem.

Whenever your ally within 4m is taking damage, you take 200% of the damage your ally is taking.

That means the whole 40 man zerg train can be one shot.

This is cruel, but will promote tactical play to spread out.

umagon

If you want to break those blobs up manifestation of terror does a better job than detonation because it actuality forces them apart. Terror fears all targets not just 3 like other morph plus it rustles jimmies.

PKMN12

There is no way to make zergs not the best way, not unless you simply want to scrap the entire cyrodiil PVP/war aspect.

ToRelax

PKMN12 wrote: »

There is no way to make zergs not the best way, not unless you simply want to scrap the entire cyrodiil PVP/war aspect.

But there are ways to make zergballing an easy way to suicide.

manny254

LazyLewis wrote: »

This was an almost full raid using it. Our groups use it aswell in our full groups because we are forced to do so

Why don't you take the advice ZoS gave you. Just use spear shards or piercing javelin to even the odds.

Rohaus

Maybe the problem does not lie with ZOS but the players themselves. Use your brain and the tools given to you to devise a method for victory against said Zerg. As they say, where there is a will, there is a way.

Poxheart

manny254 wrote: »

LazyLewis wrote: »

This was an almost full raid using it. Our groups use it aswell in our full groups because we are forced to do so

Why don't you take the advice ZoS gave you. Just use spear shards or piercing javelin to even the odds.

Potions. The solution to the OPs problem is to brew more potions.

PKMN12

ToRelax wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

There is no way to make zergs not the best way, not unless you simply want to scrap the entire cyrodiil PVP/war aspect.

But there are ways to make zergballing an easy way to suicide.

not really, numbers>>>>>>>anything else, in this kind of pvp

Arvendir

sorry if i ask something that may be obvious but:

why they can not add the Character collision?

It would make the PvP more realistic and would be epic to see a wall of tanks in front of the destroyed walls/gates

btw i think one solution could be to improve the AP gain of the small groups and to remove the Purge effect on the siege weapons dots

The AP points gained in small group should be incredibly high and they could make longer the way to rank up

LazyLewis

PKMN12 wrote: »

There is no way to make zergs not the best way, not unless you simply want to scrap the entire cyrodiil PVP/war aspect.

Its not about getting rid of zergs. Its about Zergs you anti zerg tactics aga

Rohaus wrote: »

Maybe the problem does not lie with ZOS but the players themselves. Use your brain and the tools given to you to devise a method for victory against said Zerg. As they say, where there is a will, there is a way.

Oh there are ways to beat it. Just last week our guild posted this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/173305/decibel-vs-vehemence-video-2-fights/p1

Our full group vs 40+ EP (x2 organised groups) and some pugs. They pushed into us with 15+ proxys and we beat them over and over. BUT its more to do with the fact that everyone using it and organised PvP is kinda revolving around it. I Know ZoS nerfed immovable because everyone used it and play styles revolved around it. I think the same should be done for proxy. I hate that PvP revolves around it.

Imdrefan

Arvendir wrote: »

sorry if i ask something that may be obvious but:

why they can not add the Character collision?

It would make the PvP more realistic and would be epic to see a wall of tanks in front of the destroyed walls/gates

btw i think one solution could be to improve the AP gain of the small groups and to remove the Purge effect on the siege weapons dots

The AP points gained in small group should be incredibly high and they could make longer the way to rank up

For the love of everything holy, please,PLEASE, don't add player collision. The griefing would be brought to a whole new level and this player base (on all three factions) clearly showed they can't be civil when troll camps were in their hay day.

Fizzlewizzle

Imdrefan wrote: »

Arvendir wrote: »

sorry if i ask something that may be obvious but:

why they can not add the Character collision?

It would make the PvP more realistic and would be epic to see a wall of tanks in front of the destroyed walls/gates

btw i think one solution could be to improve the AP gain of the small groups and to remove the Purge effect on the siege weapons dots

The AP points gained in small group should be incredibly high and they could make longer the way to rank up

For the love of everything holy, please,PLEASE, don't add player collision. The griefing would be brought to a whole new level and this player base (on all three factions) clearly showed they can't be civil when troll camps were in their hay day.

I don't see the problem, as long as it's only in cyrodiil you won't have many problems with it.
Doors aren't the only way out of keeps, if you might think that there will be people blocking doors.

In the normal world (PvE zones) i would see a problem with it, as you wouldn't be able to reach certain spots (banks in crowded cities) or areas because of potential griefers or just random crowds.

Farsh

Arvendir wrote: »

sorry if i ask something that may be obvious but:

why they can not add the Character collision?

It would make the PvP more realistic and would be epic to see a wall of tanks in front of the destroyed walls/gates

Yes please, this would be awesome

cjthibs

I'd personally love to see character collision.
Let my group shield wall a zerg as they try run us over.

A lot of fights revolve around positioning and this would change the dynamic. But I think it's a computational nightmare for the servers. The technology might not be up to it just yet.

ToRelax

PKMN12 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

There is no way to make zergs not the best way, not unless you simply want to scrap the entire cyrodiil PVP/war aspect.

But there are ways to make zergballing an easy way to suicide.

not really, numbers>>>>>>>anything else, in this kind of pvp

If there was an AoE skill scaling with targets hit and everyone stacks up, numbers will get you killed.
That is just the easiest example. How can you not see this possibility?

Sensesfail13

manny254 wrote: »

LazyLewis wrote: »

This was an almost full raid using it. Our groups use it aswell in our full groups because we are forced to do so

Why don't you take the advice ZoS gave you. Just use spear shards or piercing javelin to even the odds.

Because its all purged away or they have retreating maneuver on so fears, stuns, and all other cc's dont touch the zergs, dont believe me try it out.

I tried fear spamming in the middle of a zerg last night repeatedly just to break them up and it didnt touch even one person in the zerg. Either it was purged away or they had a cc immunity skill on.
Either way... gluck with that.

Sensesfail13

Im still a proponent of purging purge from the game, its what allows these groups to take 0 damage while running in a blob. Take it from them and make them rely on heals because they are more resource intensive.

rfennell_ESO

The solution was inevitable detonation, they included proximity detonation but made it hit harder....

In theory, inevitable could still be the solution. It needs to do more damage, have a reduced cast time... Perhaps make it trigger other inevitable detonations when it goes off and increase their damage. Or even give inevitable detonation a debuff that can't be purged that increases AE damage for x seconds.

Fact is that inevitable detonation doesn't really "break zergs" which was exactly what it was intended for. It pales in the "we have to include a melee version" comparison with proximity.

If they really really want to break zergs... make inevitable detonation act as a silence based on how many targets it hits. I'd say from a very brief silence on one target to a 5 second on 20 or more.

Just throwing things out there... but the main issue is inevitable detonation ended up not being the solution and it's melee-centric morph turned into the new hotness.

anton_tatarov

Well ye, i am also bored of this blub pvp fights and lag fests cause of that. Well i can see only 1 solution how u could fix blobbing and zerging - punishing players when some one using aoe spells like purge. If purge has cleaning effect that means for example., that purge must clean ALL effects like food, buffs, long buffs (mage light etc, so u need to recast them), mundus stones etc, also easy as it is - turn on friendly fire, well lets say make it like 20% dmg from ur spells goes to ur party members or just ppl from ur alliance around you, also they must reduce aoe heal, to do so they must implement "wave" system instead of just aoe circle, so 1 person will get 100% of the heal, second one 90% etc until it goes to 0%, it wont solve aoe heal spam but at least party wont get same amount of heal from 1 spell to all members around.

Well there are plenty of good ideas out there, the problem is that devs dont care about that, cause they wont lose money cause of the ppl who leaving because they are not satisfied with pvp lags and boringness in cyro. They still got ppl who do pve, so they will just add more dungeons, pets, stupid drops from trials etc. fixing of pvp is the last priority for them.

DanTeales_Inferno

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The solution was inevitable detonation, they included proximity detonation but made it hit harder....

In theory, inevitable could still be the solution. It needs to do more damage, have a reduced cast time... Perhaps make it trigger other inevitable detonations when it goes off and increase their damage. Or even give inevitable detonation a debuff that can't be purged that increases AE damage for x seconds.

Fact is that inevitable detonation doesn't really "break zergs" which was exactly what it was intended for. It pales in the "we have to include a melee version" comparison with proximity.

If they really really want to break zergs... make inevitable detonation act as a silence based on how many targets it hits. I'd say from a very brief silence on one target to a 5 second on 20 or more.

Just throwing things out there... but the main issue is inevitable detonation ended up not being the solution and it's melee-centric morph turned into the new hotness.

This is an amazing idea ! It still requires a degree of coordination to the player opposing the zerg. One of the big issues people have at the minute is that any player, no matter how skilled, can jump on some siege equipment and kill half a dozen players. If Detonation was as simple as cast it on a big zerg and wipe them all, then the same issue would arise. The way you suggest eradicates this but also places a reasonable amount of responsibility on the opposing side. Now, if only ZoS listened to us, such a shame.

Rune_Relic

At the end of the day using a zerg buster that's "based on damage" will always be amplified by the numbers involved.

Many have suggested CD to force people apart... many have slated it for griefing.
But the griefing aspect doenst have to be full time.

DEATHSWIND can blow people apart and create a temporary CD with stun and cooldown and should flush their "outgoing" dots/hots.
No damage is involved, the zerg is defenceless when stunned.
It only works on people within a radius so hits blobs hard.
Easy picking for a ganking.
Lag is reduced as there is no outgoing combat calcs with stunned people.
[nb nothing should remove this stun.]

The trick is not to increase damage to a zerg/blob as that by default increases the damage from the zerg/blob.
The trick is to make them vulnerable to the damage they mitigate effortlessly.

CAN A BLOB REALLY STAND IN SIEGE HEALING/PURGING.....WHEN STUNNED AND DEFENCELESS ?

themdogesbite

Although proximity detonation also helps a *** ton against lager group forces too.. Damage scaleing based on tagets hit should be the solution.

Joy_Division

In every RPG I have ever played, it was a disadvantage to blob together and that was something you'd hope your opponents would do. ZoS only needs to look at an old Dungeons and Dragons book to find spells and abilities like cloudkill, confusion, fireball, wall of force, chain lightning, etc., that would spell death to zergs.

Instead of giving players tools like this to combat zergs, they gave the zergs tools like purge, barrier, and healing springs to sustain themselves.

Fizzlewizzle

Something i posted in another myself, because of those Zergs.
(Main Topic)

The biggest pain in PvP are those pesky Zerks. For this i have a suggestion, coming in two forms.
An "Assault" Active and a "Support" Passive skill.

Lets begin with the Active:
"Pressure Field"
A ground targeted AOE attack which counts your enemies.
If more than 10 enemies are within the skill's area at the same time the skill will be triggered, dealing damage to all players inside.
Range: 28M
Radius: 15M
Duration: 5 minutes
Damage dealt: (100% Weapon damage + 100% spell damage) multiplied by The amount of players within the targeted area.

You can safely walk with up to 10 players over this AOE, once player 11 enters it it will trigger.
It possibly won't kill the complete zerg, but at least it will thin it out.

Morphs:
"Rearming Field"
The basic mechanic works the same. If more than 10 people enter the area it will trigger the damage.
Added features:
- Duration 10 minutes.
- Once activated it will take 15 seconds for it to re-arm itself (only happens once).

"Venus Flytrap"
The basic mechanic works the same; If more than 10 people enter the area the skill will trigger, doing the following:
- All enemies within the area will be drained from their Magicka and Stamina, which will be kept at 0 (potions and regen won't work).
- All enemies within the area are rooted for a duration of 15 seconds.
- Any new enemies that enter the area will get the above two effects applied to them.
- After the 15 seconds the damage effect will occur, on everyone trapped inside the "Venus Flytrap".
(Damage will be: (100% Weapon damage + 100% spell damage) multiplied by The amount of players within the targeted area.)

The Passive skill:
"Allied counter".
Comes with the "While in Cyrodiil" prefix.
Tier 1: This skill will count and display (among the buffs), how many players are within a 15M radius of you.
Tier 2: It will display a secondary buff, which tells you how many players are within a 25M radius of you.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Well the easiest and most realistic fix would be to buff single target i.e. damage, CCs and other effects so that they do more the AoEs Surprise Attack and Steel Tornado does the same damage one is single target the other it an AoE.

Alternatively upping the cost of AoEs would fix this for all of Human history Wars were fought 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 3 in extreme Wars not 1 vs 10 if you can hit 24 people with the same damage and cost of powers that hit only one person why not hit 24? Fixing Zergs by adding powers that hits a lot of people from range was a complete flop cause it was solo. Making it that single target fighting is effective as a group spamming AoEs is the only to fix this so long as AoEs are king no reason to not have ball up Cleanse + Healing Springs + Barrier + Breathe of Life + Combat Prayer going in rotation as you Zerg

Bazeric

Having just morphed to the Inevitable Detonation I'm a little disappointed with it. TB hasn't been the Zergfest it was, granted, but after reading some ideas I think have a easy solution that won't take tons of new coding and won't add crazy strain on the server.

Solution:
If the Inevitable Detonation morph had the knock down effect of the craftable armor set Death's Wind, presto!
The mechanism already exists in the game so it should be an easy tweek. Reduce damage if you must to compensate, but this is a realistic idea that ZOS should consider.

How do we (ESO players) feel about this? Realistically, you should consider that ZOS isn't going to invest heavily in PVP tweeks and others solutions would only strain the servers more.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
(Don't know that tagging makes a difference but I think this is one of my better ideas...)

Warraxx

make jesus beam an AOE...




(seriously don't)