Why all the hate for perma dodgers?

bowmanz607

Although I have a gear setup for perma dodging, i rarley use it cause it is boring and has low damage output. In fact it is best for pve content imo. Just because people can dodge like crazy does not mean they can kill you. In fact, they just dodge and are more of a distraction from the real fight. These are players that have to kill you quick or not at all. This is no different then a templar that block heals and puts out no damage. also, no different from a sorc blinking away forever. There are ways around these players such as CCs. Learn how to adapt to killing them thats all. What about players with an endless pool of magika? should they be nerfed too? I guess i am not following the logic behind singling these players out so much.

Ffastyl

It is a kill or be killed mentality prevalent in more instanced PvP where the fight does not end until one person dies. Look to the hate against Bolt Escaping Sorcerers and uber-tank Dragonknights/Templars. It is the same rage of being unable to kill something, especially when you offensively/defensively outclass the target, and the mark getting away. There are rewards for killing someone, not driving them off. This is where the rage against perma-dodgers is coming from.

And like Bolt Escapers, considerable offense is still possible for perma-dodgers.

LegacyDM

Ffastyl wrote: »

It is a kill or be killed mentality prevalent in more instanced PvP where the fight does not end until one person dies. Look to the hate against Bolt Escaping Sorcerers and uber-tank Dragonknights/Templars. It is the same rage of being unable to kill something, especially when you offensively/defensively outclass the target, and the mark getting away. There are rewards for killing someone, not driving them off. This is where the rage against perma-dodgers is coming from.

And like Bolt Escapers, considerable offense is still possible for perma-dodgers.

So I agree with mostly what you are saying. However, everyone is an uber-tank DK/Templar and everyone is an uber BE/hardened ward sorcerer. So how can one perform considerable offense in this game unless the enemy is on horseback?

cozmon3c_ESO

i can do roll dodge for some decent dps about 12k a second with heavy attack, poison arrow, then roll. or to finish someone off with heavy attack, executioner, roll, heavy attack, executioner, roll. you can be dangerous if you are a pro at rolling and doing instant damage.

doing these moves you will dodge most things, i say most because ill be damned by how many damn charge moves hit you while rolling.

bowmanz607

Ya but you can do that rotation without having a permanent dodge setup. Most ppl who can dodge forever without ever having to stop have so many stats into regen that they have a low damage output.

danno8

Because it is bad game design.

The same bad game design as perma-shields and perma-blocking. It's what happens when the combat design team fails to foresee the best combination of gear/traits/cp's/skills and how crazy effective it can be.

bowmanz607

Although u see your point I would have to disagree. Think about it all play styles have different ways to defend themselves which keeps everyone on the same lvl. For instance, h3avy armor perma-blocks, medium perma-dodges, light permanent-sh3uld. ZoS said from the beginning they would not try stay away from nerfing a llaystyle but bring the rest up. The key is understanding your opponent and what they are doIng. they key is timing. Eventually, a perma-blockers attacks to raise uly (also fear is great if a nb). A perma dodger will eventually have to attack. A perma shield eventually drops, has to be rebuffed which means no dps and less in resource pool, they also can be cc. The key is patience. I think these 3 tactics are vulnerable and makes for more of a chess game between players rather than checkers. Again I do see your point this is just my opinion.

Germtrocity

Out of the three tactics (perma-shielder, perma-blocker, and perma-dodger) that you have listed, the perma dodging is by far the most powerful.

Let us take these three for a moment and analyze what perma-shielding and perma-blocking have that is different from perma-dodging : they are actually taking damage, and there is only so much damage they can take.

Perma-dodge roll builds are on a level of their own because they don't mitigate damage, they ignore (most) damage entirely for the duration of the dodge roll.


This sets them completely aside from all other forms of damage mitigation, as well as giving them an added bonus over other forms of mitigation.
Dodge rollers are able to weave in skills and light/heavy attacks in between dodge rolling while still ignoring damage.

Sorcerers have to recast shields, taking away from their damage. Tanks have to hold block, taking away from their mobility and damage.
Roll dodge has set bonuses that increase offensive power while the wearer is ignoring damage, and roll dodging gives increased mobility over blockers and shielders.

Perma-blockers and perma-shielders can only take so much damage before they go down and their defenses are not able to best their opponents offenses. Roll dodging can mitigate a theoretical infinite amount of damage due to the fact that it is evading and not absorbing damage.


Roll dodge as a form of damage mitigation is on a playing field of its own, it is ridiculous how powerful it is, and really needs to be toned down because of the ridiculous amount of survivability it grants.

xaraan

It's just a playstyle, although it is an annoying one, just like bolt escape or shadow cloak. Some players use it pretty well to actually make it part of their fight style, most just run in an annoy people and then run away - so you can't be surprised a ton of players are annoyed by it when that's all most players do with those abilities.

jelliedsoup

Ffastyl wrote: »

It is a kill or be killed mentality prevalent in more instanced PvP where the fight does not end until one person dies. Look to the hate against Bolt Escaping Sorcerers and uber-tank Dragonknights/Templars. It is the same rage of being unable to kill something, especially when you offensively/defensively outclass the target, and the mark getting away. There are rewards for killing someone, not driving them off. This is where the rage against perma-dodgers is coming from.

And like Bolt Escapers, considerable offense is still possible for perma-dodgers.

It's interesting that people put the perma dodge builds on par with the invasion > talons DK or the Bolt > Frag Sorcs.
To me the Dk and sorc are far superior to the Nb and Temp. And the roll dodge is oftwn the Nb domain. I really dont know if sone people are playing the same game as me. Perhapd they've convinced themselves that they're crazy skilled and it has noyhinh to with their build and rotation.

bowmanz607

Germtrocity wrote: »

Out of the three tactics (perma-shielder, perma-blocker, and perma-dodger) that you have listed, the perma dodging is by far the most powerful.

Let us take these three for a moment and analyze what perma-shielding and perma-blocking have that is different from perma-dodging : they are actually taking damage, and there is only so much damage they can take.

Perma-dodge roll builds are on a level of their own because they don't mitigate damage, they ignore (most) damage entirely for the duration of the dodge roll.


This sets them completely aside from all other forms of damage mitigation, as well as giving them an added bonus over other forms of mitigation.
Dodge rollers are able to weave in skills and light/heavy attacks in between dodge rolling while still ignoring damage.

Sorcerers have to recast shields, taking away from their damage. Tanks have to hold block, taking away from their mobility and damage.
Roll dodge has set bonuses that increase offensive power while the wearer is ignoring damage, and roll dodging gives increased mobility over blockers and shielders.

Perma-blockers and perma-shielders can only take so much damage before they go down and their defenses are not able to best their opponents offenses. Roll dodging can mitigate a theoretical infinite amount of damage due to the fact that it is evading and not absorbing damage.


Roll dodge as a form of damage mitigation is on a playing field of its own, it is ridiculous how powerful it is, and really needs to be toned down because of the ridiculous amount of survivability it grants.

look at it another way. perma-blocker can still cast instant skills and put out damage. perma-sheild comes has more sustained dps in between sheilds so are able to put out more damage with draw back being rebuffing. perma-blocker can only attack between rolls and the gear used usually goes to regen not power so not only are those attacks weak but the amount of time between shots is higher than that of a perma-sheild. so perma-dodge is generally going to put out less damage than perma-sheild while the attack damage of a perma-dodge is usually low enough and so far between that an opponet has time to recover. Lastly, the perma-dodge puts equal if not only slightly more damage than a perma-blocker with a perma-blocker being able to attack while blocking and a perma dodge gear not being set for damage and more time between shots. moreover, most perm-blockers are temps and DK's which means they have self heals to recover from the inbetween shots while still blocking.

Sharee

Germtrocity wrote: »

Out of the three tactics (perma-shielder, perma-blocker, and perma-dodger) that you have listed, the perma dodging is by far the most powerful.

Let us take these three for a moment and analyze what perma-shielding and perma-blocking have that is different from perma-dodging : they are actually taking damage, and there is only so much damage they can take.

Perma-dodge roll builds are on a level of their own because they don't mitigate damage, they ignore (most) damage entirely for the duration of the dodge roll.

1, while roll competely avoids damage, there are damage sources that a roll can not protect from. Barring environmental damage, there is no source of damage that a shield would not protect from.

2, unlike a shield, a roll in progress prevents the protected player from doing anything else. The roller can only act once the roll completes - but then he is no longer protected. This enables his attacker to time his attacks so that the roller either takes full damage, or does no damage himself.

Joy_Division

Germtrocity summed up well. You don't seem to get the dodging is by far the best for of mitigation.

• If I am blocking and I get hit with an attack, I take damage and lose stamina
• If I have a shield up and get hit with an attack, I suffer from CC effects and I could take a *lot* of damage if the attack exceeds my shield strength
• If I am dodging and someone tries to hit me with an attack, I will avoid the damage and CC effects completely at the cost of a little stamina (for most attacks).

I can't speak for others, but another reason I dislike perma dodge-rolling is because it makes it a mindless spam when a dodge should be specific form of defense used intelligently and strategically. Of course, perma blocking falls into the same category, but at least the perma dodging will run out of health or stam if they just sit there holding block so they are not quite as annoying.

olsborg

You have to slot specificly for permdodgers, once you have, its much easier, still, its annoying that its spammable to the extent currently possible.

cozmon3c_ESO

The only class with a problem with roll dodgers is pretty much Magicka Sorcerer. If this is what you are then there is a reason you have trouble with dodge rollers. It's because you have no intant cast melee damage abilities like the other three classes. It's not that dodge is OP, its that Magicka sorc has no tool to fight against it except ultimates that go through dodge.

olsborg

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

The only class with a problem with roll dodgers is pretty much Magicka Sorcerer. If this is what you are then there is a reason you have trouble with dodge rollers. It's because you have no intant cast melee damage abilities like the other three classes. It's not that dodge is OP, its that Magicka sorc has no tool to fight against it except ultimates that go through dodge.

Im a magicka sorc, and what you say is true, to an extent, my main damage ability (CF) is basicly always dodged, same with Endless Fury (and crushing shock) , but my curse, streak and heavy lightning attack is not dodgeable, neither is my ulty (dawnbreaker of smiting) wich I have slotted specificly for dodgers.

So if you slot things that will hit dodgers, youll be ok, if you dont, then prepare to be annoyed.

bowmanz607

olsborg wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

The only class with a problem with roll dodgers is pretty much Magicka Sorcerer. If this is what you are then there is a reason you have trouble with dodge rollers. It's because you have no intant cast melee damage abilities like the other three classes. It's not that dodge is OP, its that Magicka sorc has no tool to fight against it except ultimates that go through dodge.

Im a magicka sorc, and what you say is true, to an extent, my main damage ability (CF) is basicly always dodged, same with Endless Fury (and crushing shock) , but my curse, streak and heavy lightning attack is not dodgeable, neither is my ulty (dawnbreaker of smiting) wich I have slotted specificly for dodgers.

So if you slot things that will hit dodgers, youll be ok, if you dont, then prepare to be annoyed.

kinda goes to my point. you will always have a strength and will always have a weakness.

Snowballer23

perma roll dodger + nirno. Said it all.

olsborg

Snowballer23 wrote: »

perma roll dodger + nirno. Said it all.

Yea, magicka sorc pretty much just have to ignore these and move on to another target. Pretty stupid, you can do less to these ppl then you can vs a tankspecced permblocker.

OdinForge

olsborg wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

The only class with a problem with roll dodgers is pretty much Magicka Sorcerer. If this is what you are then there is a reason you have trouble with dodge rollers. It's because you have no intant cast melee damage abilities like the other three classes. It's not that dodge is OP, its that Magicka sorc has no tool to fight against it except ultimates that go through dodge.

Im a magicka sorc, and what you say is true, to an extent, my main damage ability (CF) is basicly always dodged, same with Endless Fury (and crushing shock) , but my curse, streak and heavy lightning attack is not dodgeable, neither is my ulty (dawnbreaker of smiting) wich I have slotted specificly for dodgers.

So if you slot things that will hit dodgers, youll be ok, if you dont, then prepare to be annoyed.

Curse is really all you need, against a roly poly that isn't in nirn they won't last too long. Protected in your daedric mines casting detonation.

Francescolg

danno8 wrote: »

Because it is bad game design.

The same bad game design as perma-shields and perma-blocking. It's what happens when the combat design team fails to foresee the best combination of gear/traits/cp's/skills and how crazy effective it can be.

Bump! They even did not register that DK / Sorc can more easily stack up ultimates.. it took them a year to discover that. Or skills like Reflective Scales, which even a 5year old in the sandbox would recognize as op, as well as chain-porting, which still is (again) possible. or having one superstrong AoE which can not be blocked in the newest patches. Etc. etc., let's not waste time repeating

Mr_Nobody

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

The only class with a problem with roll dodgers is pretty much Magicka Sorcerer. If this is what you are then there is a reason you have trouble with dodge rollers. It's because you have no intant cast melee damage abilities like the other three classes. It's not that dodge is OP, its that Magicka sorc has no tool to fight against it except ultimates that go through dodge.

Templar doesnt have any single target melee damaging abilities either. Unless you count jabs as such, but those are actually a channeled spell and are easily avoided by anyone with 2 hands if not CCd.

on topic ~ I dont have a single problem with dodge rollers. i just click jesus beam and watch them suffer!

cozmon3c_ESO

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

The only class with a problem with roll dodgers is pretty much Magicka Sorcerer. If this is what you are then there is a reason you have trouble with dodge rollers. It's because you have no intant cast melee damage abilities like the other three classes. It's not that dodge is OP, its that Magicka sorc has no tool to fight against it except ultimates that go through dodge.

Templar doesnt have any single target melee damaging abilities either. Unless you count jabs as such, but those are actually a channeled spell and are easily avoided by anyone with 2 hands if not CCd.

on topic ~ I dont have a single problem with dodge rollers. i just click jesus beam and watch them suffer!

Stamina
Spear charge goes through dodge roll, 100% of the time, on me anyway.
Jabs will hit with the knock back when the target comes out of the roll.
Close range Spear shards will give you a better chance to hit the Dodge roller because of faster animation when casted closer to yourself.

Magicka
Jesus beam spam, what else do you need over that lol.

Mr_Nobody

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

The only class with a problem with roll dodgers is pretty much Magicka Sorcerer. If this is what you are then there is a reason you have trouble with dodge rollers. It's because you have no intant cast melee damage abilities like the other three classes. It's not that dodge is OP, its that Magicka sorc has no tool to fight against it except ultimates that go through dodge.

Templar doesnt have any single target melee damaging abilities either. Unless you count jabs as such, but those are actually a channeled spell and are easily avoided by anyone with 2 hands if not CCd.

on topic ~ I dont have a single problem with dodge rollers. i just click jesus beam and watch them suffer!

Stamina
Spear charge goes through dodge roll, 100% of the time, on me anyway.
Jabs will hit with the knock back when the target comes out of the roll.
Close range Spear shards will give you a better chance to hit the Dodge roller because of faster animation when casted closer to yourself.

Magicka
Jesus beam spam, what else do you need over that lol.

~ Spear charge only applies damage while dodge rolling, and has to be magicka user to deal more than 1k to a non-nirnhorned target. Since it deals up to 3-4kish with magicka dps builds.
~ Jabs, as I mentioned before, are easily avoidable, ESPECIALLY by dodge rollers, since every dodge puts them out of range and stamina templar has to charge in and *TRY* again to land the entire and/or last Jabs hit, just to knock the person for 0.4 seconds and give them a full CC immunity duration as if it was a 4 second stun.
~ Spear Shards are nearly impossible to hit on a moving target due to their travel time.

Either way, no stamina templars use charge/spear shards.


~ So no, stamina templar doesnt have much to offer to counter dodge rolling, same as stamina Sorcs. However, Gina mentioned that Sorcs will receive some stamina morphs soon or something while templars remain forgotten as always ~

bowmanz607

again it comes down to timing and patients. there is always a time between roles to get the dodger. again they cant damage you while dodge rolling so wait for them to attack you and counter then. every class has their drawbacks. not evey class can have everything. temps/dk has self heal. nb/sorc have escape abilities. nb has great stdps. temp has great heals and a great execution etc. if you want more single target attacks then play a different class (with all do respect). I mean typically someone who picks a temp is going to be a heal/tank not a stdps. Although you can "play as you want" that does not mean that you will be the best at the alternative methods. this is where weapon skills come into play not class skills.

bowmanz607

additionally, u claim a temp stam build has no answer for a dodger then dont fight them. (again i still think comes down to timing). As a vamp i am going to avoid a DK that is spamming lava whip. As a light armor build i will probably avoid a 2H player.etc. everthing has a weakness and a strength. it is your job to figure that out on the battle field. When i see a DK spam flappy wings i dont use my bow (except bombard).

cozmon3c_ESO

Spear charge goes through dodge roll and knocks down target leaving them open to damage. If you not using it against dodgers then you are just gimp in yourself.

Snit

Many people seem unwilling or unable to adjust their skillbars and playstyle to attack dodgers, shielders and permablockers. They all have weaknesses that can be exploited, if you are willing to change your approach to them.

Dodgerolling may be a bit much, especially when "Tactician" is unlocked. I don't know what I think yet. I'm playing a bosmer werewolf nightblade alt now, in part to see how to kill them.

caeliusstarbreaker

Other than just human nature to be angry at things that get the better of them, there is much hatred for dodge rolling cause it's on the higher end of effective damage mitigation while not drawing away too much from damage output.

Yes I am a dk, a more perma than not block, flame lash spamming, dot applying, valkyn wearing who wears 1 piece of nirn, vamp, so before we go any further you can make a circle of salt around your feet, hang garlic in the windows, or smear lambs blood over your door frame, or whatever you guys door when we enter a forum........

But among the glaring problems we as pvp'ers face in this world.... There has to be some measure of counters available for everyone. Each class has abilities to go through block, I haven't played sorc in a while but I think all have something to go through dodge roll to an extent, and I think it's safe to say stamina has the burst ability to get through shields. Granted the TTK is quite low in the current meta... But that's not gonna change unless we literally removed all abilities and reduce the game to solely light and heavy attack based combat system. If your insatiable bloodlust makes you chase a perma dodge roller or sorc to oblivion and back expending your resources and playing right into their strong suit... You should probably be killed. Every class and build is going to have a problem or issue with some build out there.... For the most part and sadly that is the only bizarre form of balance we have. Do some have an easier going and tools that gel better yes...

You can play this game however you want, that doesn't mean your way is going to be the most effective. There are some players that have come up with unique ways to make their tools work for them... Specifically citing @jackdaniels and @leftylucy (to name a couple off the too of my head) as players that have taken their seemingly out of the box thinking and abilities and being effective. It's a little absurd that dodge roll counters are being removed... But just like everything else, I'm sure, to quote Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic park "life.. Uh... Finds a way" and give it like 2 weeks and I'm sure we will all complain about something else and there will be another measurable counter found.

TL:DR People get beat by dodge rollers, perma blockers, shield stackers... And don't like it.. Nerf everything.. Increase health by 30k in cyrodiil.. Institute only light and heavy attack/ 30dmg orchestra conductor themed magick attacks like morrowind, amulet of shadows 80 pts chameleon OP

Edited for line breaks

Awe

compairing dodge, that can be ignored by some(many) skills , by timing... with block and shieds, rediculous.
today i met 1 DK, 15k crit 1st arrow, 2nd arrow was blocked and gave 700 damage....
once was sniping( w/o stealth, debuffs) a sorc with shields, i never was able to give any damage behind shields.(around 3k attack with bow)
roll dodgers get full damage, and have lower armor cause use medium sets.
in all 3 cases target dies in 2 hits, if they forget to block/shield/dodge
but dodge , even if used, can be ignored.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Cause it's another broken mechanic that players are clearly abusing but ZoS isn't doing anything to do to change it just cause they think it is a good idea just like shield stacking and block casting.

They are not good ideas ZoS it may have sound good on paper but in action they are horrible mechanics of the game that are driving many away from PvP and you guys just need to straight up remove them. Shields need a 5k damage max skills need to be greyed out when blocking and you should only be able to dodge atleast pfft say 7 times in a row and of course animation canclelation just needs removed.