Zergballs are still the problem

Mayrael

Even we have now magica detonation, and more powerful sieges, zergballs/bomb groups or whatever you call them are still the most efective type of group play. I dont blame ppl that they make some use of their game mechanics knowledge (some of them have taken zergballing to another dimension of gaming and created very organised bomb groups that are almost invincible). But... I think its not the way we want it. I dont see anything entertaining in blind following the leader (stack on the crown, stack on the crown, move north, stack stack stack) and pressing 2-3 buttons. Organised pvp? Hell yeah! Bomb grouping? Frak no! There was many ideas how to fix it, and between them there was something like friendly fire. Its hard to give any exact numbers without testing it but this could work for aoe skills. Damage of this skills could be slightly increased in pvp to still be useful but you would have to care when you are spamming some aoe cause you can do even more harm to your own mates. This would also prevent from zergballing cuase they would simply kill their self rather than someone else. Single target and sieges wouldnt be affected by this change (or maybe they should, im not sure on that). You could still create well organised team that can be very efective, but no zergballs! Large scale battles are awesome in eso, till the lag comes or zergballing group that can be stopped only by other zerg group.

Less drastic change that could work would be removing purge or make it to dont work with sieges (bc it is very important skill for pve).

Its not easy to balance it, but something has to be done with zergballs...

GaldorP

A lightning skill that deals increased damage for each player that is close-by would solve the problem ^^

If 1 player is on his/her own-> no damage
If 2 players are close together -> low amount of damage
If 10 players are all standing on the exact same spot -> all 10 die

Problem solved ^^

I'm actually being serious here. First person shooter MMOGs have all kinds of explosives to deal with this kind of problem. ESO has nothing that can effectively destroy these zergballs except for larger zergballs (siege weapons do not work). The lightning skill I suggested alone could prevent those zergballs from happening and it would be a weak skill for all other uses, not creating any balancing problems.

Sausage

Theres not much you can do to zerg, of course one solution is to add collision between players, but its not gonna happen here. ESO's solution to zerging was to make it 3 faction game. If zerg grows too big, two weaker faction attack the strong one and of course walls are one way to fight it.

Well, Ive been thinking somekind of flying monsters and faction could summon it to help the faction. Imagine if some big Dragon appeared and started to tear down the zerg, but not sure how to balance it though.

Korah_Eaglecry

Zergballing is one of those tactics that are not only hard for the player to deal with but for the Dev to deal with as well. The most difficult thing to do is to find a way to defeat a Zergball through balance in a manner that doesnt make any one thing, class or ability OP.

Cously

It's better now. Before U6 my death recap would read Fire Ring Fire Ring Bat Swarm Fire Ring Bat Swarm. Now my death recap reads 5 different skills. The impulse vampire monkeys are no more! Stack and move is a great tactic for taking keeps, but in open fields I see group of players well spreaded now, they still attack in the linear formation but it's much better than the stacking and spamming. Does PVP needs to improve? YES!

Beesting

i have been playing in a AD bombgroup on EU for the last 7 weeks and we often try to defend keeps with 16-20 people against 50 sieging outside. The good thing about a bombgroup is you can at least try to defend a keep when a zerg shows up to take it.
Pugs or "free zone people " as we call them normally dont stand a chance.

i will tell you now that it is not always sure we will win or even succeed in defending, like someone else said the party with the bigger numbers (EP anyone?) usually wins.... (siegeweapons or meteor spam works wonders against bombgroup according to my death recaps)

Another thing altogether that DC uses a lot is a bombgroup farming pugs by using tactics that have nothing to do with winning campains or sieging. They normally take a resource, then pretend to run away or be driven back, only to come back and "bomb" the zerg that follows them. Normally this goes on between roeback and nikel for an hour or more.

So bombgroups and zergs deserve each other, in my opinion every individual player decides what works best for him/her, as many solo gankers (the lowest of the low in eso pvp haha) would agree.

Sharee

All that is needed is making Detonation damage scale with the number of targets it hits. Low single target damage, decent damage against 3-4 players caught in the radius, and when it blows in the middle of a 20+ man zerg... well, don't make 20 man zergs.

TheBull

#NerfPurge

psufan5

Easy - when you put detonation on someone and it hits more than 3 players, they all die. This will promote spreading out. This will only work near keeps btw.

Cously

Sharee wrote: »

All that is needed is making Detonation damage scale with the number of targets it hits. Low single target damage, decent damage against 3-4 players caught in the radius, and when it blows in the middle of a 20+ man zerg... well, don't make 20 man zergs.

Genius. I believe would be a simple tweak in the code. Would make it fair by having the advantage of "numbers" but the disvantage of being hit harder.

psufan5

or when you get hit with siege weapons, you actually die

Mayrael

GaldorP wrote: »

A lightning skill that deals increased damage for each player that is close-by would solve the problem ^^

If 1 player is on his/her own-> no damage
If 2 players are close together -> low amount of damage
If 10 players are all standing on the exact same spot -> all 10 die

Problem solved ^^

I'm actually being serious here. First person shooter MMOGs have all kinds of explosives to deal with this kind of problem. ESO has nothing that can effectively destroy these zergballs except for larger zergballs (siege weapons do not work). The lightning skill I suggested alone could prevent those zergballs from happening and it would be a weak skill for all other uses, not creating any balancing problems.

This seems to be awesome idea, but we need to remember that we dont want situation when one person can kill 20 with just one skill. But if we had something like siege weapon that can do something like this it would be awesome. TBH even now if not the purge siege weapons would do the trick. 3 well timed fire balistas + some oil if couldnt be purged would be quite dificult to survive.

coolermh

I still thinking being able to assist targets would break up large groups...example:

Group of 5 snipers running behind the zerg....all snipe 1 guy same time...dead
Next target...dead
etc...

The problem it is it is to hard to assist another players target

Xsorus

Take a page from Rift

http://rift.magelo.com/en/ability/1006296471/Mass-Betrayal

eliisra

coolermh wrote: »

I still thinking being able to assist targets would break up large groups...example:

Group of 5 snipers running behind the zerg....all snipe 1 guy same time...dead
Next target...dead
etc...

The problem it is it is to hard to assist another players target

Actually yes. If this game had a proper targeting system, there wouldn't be any massive zergballs. There would be only be massive zergs.

If you could properly aim your skills, both offensive and defensive, there be more benefits to spreading out.

Than again, we would also be playing a different game, requires re-designed ESO combat completely and I doubt it works on console. More action oriented MMO's such as ESO, needs aiming which often fails so everyone mash AoE. Unlike school of WoW, where you tab target and lock on name frames and mash instead. Not saying one is better or worse, it's just different types of combat.

Also feel that target assist/forward target is a bit well...brain dead. Everyone use cast on target's target (being crown) and mash one button. So we replace current zombie behaviour of zerg-balling, with something equally mindless. Not so sure.

BigTone

GaldorP wrote: »

A lightning skill that deals increased damage for each player that is close-by would solve the problem ^^

If 1 player is on his/her own-> no damage
If 2 players are close together -> low amount of damage
If 10 players are all standing on the exact same spot -> all 10 die

Problem solved ^^

I'm actually being serious here. First person shooter MMOGs have all kinds of explosives to deal with this kind of problem. ESO has nothing that can effectively destroy these zergballs except for larger zergballs (siege weapons do not work). The lightning skill I suggested alone could prevent those zergballs from happening and it would be a weak skill for all other uses, not creating any balancing problems.

How about making the lightning treb work this way instead of it being useless?

Merlin13KAGL

Mayrael wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

A lightning skill that deals increased damage for each player that is close-by would solve the problem ^^

If 1 player is on his/her own-> no damage
If 2 players are close together -> low amount of damage
If 10 players are all standing on the exact same spot -> all 10 die

Problem solved ^^

I'm actually being serious here. First person shooter MMOGs have all kinds of explosives to deal with this kind of problem. ESO has nothing that can effectively destroy these zergballs except for larger zergballs (siege weapons do not work). The lightning skill I suggested alone could prevent those zergballs from happening and it would be a weak skill for all other uses, not creating any balancing problems.

This seems to be awesome idea, but we need to remember that we dont want situation when one person can kill 20 with just one skill. But if we had something like siege weapon that can do something like this it would be awesome. TBH even now if not the purge siege weapons would do the trick. 3 well timed fire balistas + some oil if couldnt be purged would be quite dificult to survive.

This could easily be remedied with Synergy that can be used by more than one individual.

The more people that are present and press 'X,' the harder the skill hits.

xylena

most abilitiy mechanics reward and/or require stacking... why spread out and die when you can zerg and win? until we introduce un-purgeable siege effects or damage that amplifies the more targets it hits... zergballing will continue to be the most efficient, lowest risk, and highest reward style of play in pvp

much like the fear mechanic, it's counter to any sense of "immersion" ...force the enemy into a choke point where they don't even have space to swing their weapons without chopping off each other's ears, and they somehow become STRONGER?

manny254

Bomb groups and zergballs are not the same thing. A bomb group is about 10-12 ppl, and at the very most 16. They will consist of mostly of dps and fight 2-3 times there numbers constantly.

Baconlad

ZERGBALLING IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE META FOR CYRODIL. I will say that it is not in fact mindless, although I do feel sorry for the poor lonely non night blade that wonders into our stealth blob and reveals the team...just because the game allows so many people to be in a group/ fort/ server, there will be zergballing. If you REALLY want organized group pvp with objectives that are ran by the developers instead of the players, we need a battleground system of 10v10v10 or around that number. I know alot of people would rather have battlegrounds, they could definetly tie in battlegrounds into cyrodils major objectives. And cook at the loss of players from the main cyrodil zone by cutting servers down. But yeah...zergballing will never go away and nor should it, they SHOULD however give an alternative system to those that do not wish to play in a blob like arenas battlegrounds

ToRelax

Sharee wrote: »

All that is needed is making Detonation damage scale with the number of targets it hits. Low single target damage, decent damage against 3-4 players caught in the radius, and when it blows in the middle of a 20+ man zerg... well, don't make 20 man zergs.

Exactly what needs to happen.

And friendly fire is a bad idea.
You could not properly attack a zergball other than with siege, but they could still spam healing springs.

cozmon3c_ESO

i see inevitable detonation using the more people it hits the more damage it does, but the proxi detonation will just be abused to much as it doesnt really give the person on the recieving end a chance to escape the blast radius. And proxi detonation is being used by zergballs right now as well because it promotes zergballing which it should be the complete opposite of its intention imo.

to make it the zerg buster it was meant to be the damage for hitting one target needs to be cut in half. this will make it a zerg buster and not an added delayed burst against one person. then damage doubles for each person caught in the radius.

proxi det needs a rework imo.

Mayrael

Baconlad wrote: »

ZERGBALLING IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE META FOR CYRODIL. I will say that it is not in fact mindless, although I do feel sorry for the poor lonely non night blade that wonders into our stealth blob and reveals the team...just because the game allows so many people to be in a group/ fort/ server, there will be zergballing. If you REALLY want organized group pvp with objectives that are ran by the developers instead of the players, we need a battleground system of 10v10v10 or around that number. I know alot of people would rather have battlegrounds, they could definetly tie in battlegrounds into cyrodils major objectives. And cook at the loss of players from the main cyrodil zone by cutting servers down. But yeah...zergballing will never go away and nor should it, they SHOULD however give an alternative system to those that do not wish to play in a blob like arenas battlegrounds

Nope... Just nope... Zergballs arent something that majority wants... Ive played in zergballs and this was awful. No freedom, no thinking, just following the leader and pressing 2-3 keys, without even thinking who am i fighting with? Doesnt matter, he will die anyway. If not ts i could listen to audiobook it was so "demanding". Zergballs are destroying all large scale pvp. Its not about well organised groups, its about abusing game mechanics. Zergballs even well organised are nothing more than just zombie players. Yes its efective, but it shouldnt be like this.

manny254 wrote: »

Bomb groups and zergballs are not the same thing. A bomb group is about 10-12 ppl, and at the very most 16. They will consist of mostly of dps and fight 2-3 times there numbers constantly.

Ive been playing in zergballs that were made of 2 full large groups so it was almost 50 players... And this wasnt something unusual...

Francescolg

@Mayrael
Î fully agree that this game's pvp can't be just about zerging. The main problem is that small-team-playing/solo is not rewarding enough. I can not stand guilds running around with 2 or 3 groups, as they basically are just windhounds after a rabbit, as you describe, much worse than "real zerg". The biggest incentive not to join the zerg has to be the points, so that it is no longer rewarding for players if they are more than 24. This is where they should start.

As long as players are able to farm 50-100k PvP-points per hour for basically just running after their leader, nothing will draw them away from zerg balling, as no other way to do pvp offers that amount of PvP-XP/CP. So zerg = MUCH more $$ and that is not genuine for the game/PvP.

CP points for randoms/casual players in PvP are still not enough / not interesting enough.
PvP-XP for zerg balls is too high: as you still can farm a 250k purple vr 14 pvp weapon in an evening = 100k $$ per run. You just have to get into such a group. I can only speak for the EU-servers and here everybody and their grandma is zerg-balling, but, as soon as they face a "real" opponent, such groups get simply defeated by better groups. Actually you can not say, which groups are the best, as they a) have become too big or b) there are no alternative groups to the zerg-balls, basically all pvp is about them.

And what disturbs me too, that is that this groups are perfectly aware of them being the primary lag-source, nonetheless they seldomly try to devide but they keep sticking up, instead of separating their full raids, so that they don't have to run together all the time.

I disagree that nothing can't be done, I am able to fight alone vs. such zerg, as they don't touch at all any opponents, if they do not stand in the walking direction of their leader, so, it is really easy to cut the "end of the tail" of most zerg-raids, not just if you are a Mage. It's pretty easy to build some oil-catapults and to aim at the end of the zerg/raid.
This option is one of a lot, which are not being used in pvp, even if everybody has access to siege weapons and anybody can use 2 or 3 of them. If you focus 2, 3 oil catapults at zergs, they can be defeated easily, especially the less well off zerg leaders can wipe whole groups to coordinated siege. you just have to use it -> I do not understand people not using them vs. zergs/organized groups, as if they don't know how pvp works

Bouvin

Nerf zerg AP gains.

Problem solved.

Jitterbug

psufan5 wrote: »

or when you get hit with siege weapons, you actually die

hey, i die like ALL the time, man :P

Fatalyis

Xsorus wrote: »

Take a page from Rift

http://rift.magelo.com/en/ability/1006296471/Mass-Betrayal

I miss playing my Dominator....this was so much fun

Domander

Zergs go down easy enough, I think blobs are ruining pvp. (a blob is a large organized group that follows the crown)

Pvp is much more fun when everyone is spread out, on both sides. Unfortunately the only way to fight a blob (not get run over) is with a blob, or siege, and this is when the server starts to lag.

Sublime

The problem with "the more players are stacked on a Point the more damage they take" abilities is that they can also be used on ungrouped players stacking on a flag, which would make taking keeps extremely counter-intuitive. Resulting in many players getting very fustrated

Domander

Sublime wrote: »

The problem with "the more players are stacked on a Point the more damage they take" abilities is that they can also be used on ungrouped players stacking on a flag, which would make taking keeps extremely counter-intuitive. Resulting in many players getting very fustrated

perhaps this could be changed, maybe they should put many flags within a keep, especially the large keeps. If there were more than the 2 main flags, players would have to spread out fully take a keep.

Xsorus

Zerg Balling is a product of Months of AOE caps followed by leaving some abilities that are heals or heal liked uncapped

Oh..and terrible players thinking 24 people is just a small group