Melee Magicka Attacks still bypassing Roll Dodge

DDuke

All of them are still hitting targets who are trying to roll dodge to avoid damage.

• Teleport Strike
• Concealed Weapon
• Lava Whip (both morphs)

These skills also instantly break your cloak if you're a NB.


Any ETA on when these are getting fixed, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?

They've been broken for months now and make PvP a frustrating experience to say the least.

RoyJade

If I remember, it's intended, dodge roll shouldn't avoid everything. I can have misunderstanding, of course.

DDuke

RoyJade wrote: »

If I remember, it's intended, dodge roll shouldn't avoid everything. I can have misunderstanding, of course.

It doesn't avoid everything, channeled spells (Radiant Destruction & Soul Assault for instance), Meteor, Biting Jabs get a couple hits in guaranteed (even if the target is spamming roll dodge, there is a 0,5~ second time of vulnerability between them), Curse & Detonation go through roll dodge as well.

The thing is, by making hard hitting single target abilities completely unavoidable, you make Magicka NB/DK vs Stamina Build fights terribly one-sided.

You can basicly just hold block & spam one button, which negates every defense available to a stamina DPS (even cloak, if you're a NB).

This only reinforces the "instagib or die" meta currently in place, since you have no way of surviving should you fail to do so (e.g. target is blocking or has tons of health and shields up).

Yakidafi

There is a 0.5 sec invulnerability? Never worked for me, well it does once every 500 roll. I thought it were latency problems with said skills made them hit, because alot of times, most times, even light attacks hit crit charge etc while in roll, well any attack really.

DDuke

Yakidafi wrote: »

There is a 0.5 sec invulnerability? Never worked for me, well it does once every 500 roll. I thought it were latency problems with said skills made them hit, because alot of times, most times, even light attacks hit crit charge etc while in roll, well any attack really.

I made this educational video shortly before Update 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y0lKt3qAbk


It still works, if you time your attacks correctly (take a short break from that DPS rotation and make sure you land those hits at the correct time. It's not easy, but definitely doable (I get kills thanks to that every day).

Yakidafi

DDuke wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

There is a 0.5 sec invulnerability? Never worked for me, well it does once every 500 roll. I thought it were latency problems with said skills made them hit, because alot of times, most times, even light attacks hit crit charge etc while in roll, well any attack really.

I made this educational video shortly before Update 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y0lKt3qAbk


It still works, if you time your attacks correctly (take a short break from that DPS rotation and make sure you land those hits at the correct time. It's not easy, but definitely doable (I get kills thanks to that every day).

I meant enemies hitting me while I am rolling, not attacking and rolling same time.

DDuke

Yakidafi wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

There is a 0.5 sec invulnerability? Never worked for me, well it does once every 500 roll. I thought it were latency problems with said skills made them hit, because alot of times, most times, even light attacks hit crit charge etc while in roll, well any attack really.

I made this educational video shortly before Update 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y0lKt3qAbk


It still works, if you time your attacks correctly (take a short break from that DPS rotation and make sure you land those hits at the correct time. It's not easy, but definitely doable (I get kills thanks to that every day).

I meant enemies hitting me while I am rolling, not attacking and rolling same time.

That'd be the melee magicka based abilities. You cannot avoid them by any means (even cloak gets removed if opponent is spamming them).

I've been hit by Crit Charge as well several times while roll dodging, but I'm not 100% sure about that (could use some testing).

Garion

Working as intended. Stamina builds and permanent dodge rolling, twinned with nirn, is already ridiculously out of hand. I'd consider this being reviewed after a nirn fix, but in the mean time this is a good thing.

Yakidafi

DDuke wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

There is a 0.5 sec invulnerability? Never worked for me, well it does once every 500 roll. I thought it were latency problems with said skills made them hit, because alot of times, most times, even light attacks hit crit charge etc while in roll, well any attack really.

I made this educational video shortly before Update 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y0lKt3qAbk


It still works, if you time your attacks correctly (take a short break from that DPS rotation and make sure you land those hits at the correct time. It's not easy, but definitely doable (I get kills thanks to that every day).

I meant enemies hitting me while I am rolling, not attacking and rolling same time.

That'd be the melee magicka based abilities. You cannot avoid them by any means (even cloak gets removed if opponent is spamming them).

I've been hit by Crit Charge as well several times while roll dodging, but I'm not 100% sure about that (could use some testing).

I have been trying to time m attacks when someone is rolldodging away and I chase, with charge and ambush. But it happen so rarely I get a hit and almost anyone can hit me dodging I figured it to be latency, most 1v1 not even I get hit if good ping ^^
Except by listed magicka attacks.

Yakidafi

@DDuke you tested puncturing sweep?

DDuke

Yakidafi wrote: »

@DDuke you tested puncturing sweep?

No, not yet.

Haven't really noticed it hitting me in PvP while dodge rolling, but it's possible.
Atleast you can avoid it by dodge rolling behind the opponent, or to the side so the cone doesn't hit you.

glak

DDuke wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

If I remember, it's intended, dodge roll shouldn't avoid everything. I can have misunderstanding, of course.

It doesn't avoid everything, channeled spells (Radiant Destruction & Soul Assault for instance), Meteor, Biting Jabs get a couple hits in guaranteed (even if the target is spamming roll dodge, there is a 0,5~ second time of vulnerability between them), Curse & Detonation go through roll dodge as well.

The thing is, by making hard hitting single target abilities completely unavoidable, you make Magicka NB/DK vs Stamina Build fights terribly one-sided.

You can basicly just hold block & spam one button, which negates every defense available to a stamina DPS (even cloak, if you're a NB).

This only reinforces the "instagib or die" meta currently in place, since you have no way of surviving should you fail to do so (e.g. target is blocking or has tons of health and shields up).

But NB can use Fear against magicka users. Fear goes through block.

Ffastyl

Stamina users have another defense besides dodge roll: block.

Each mechanic, each ability, needs a counter to it. These unavoidable attacks bring a counter to dodge rolling.
So don't put all your eggs in one basket.

DDuke

Ffastyl wrote: »

Stamina users have another defense besides dodge roll: block.

Each mechanic, each ability, needs a counter to it. These unavoidable attacks bring a counter to dodge rolling.
So don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Good luck blocking as a stamina DPS (not tank), against someone who has built around permablocking.

A stamina DPS isn't built around blocking, and it is used only reactively in certain situations. It isn't your main, only form of defense, not in any fight (if it was, you'd be using Heavy Armour to reduce the cost of blocking).

I do agree that each mechanic should have counters to it in a game without cooldowns, but we can do that without bugged abilities granting an unfair advantage to certain builds.

As mentioned above, there are existing, fair counters to dodge roll such as the 0,5 second vulnerability period, channeled spells, velocious curse etc (ironically, none of these are viable to use for stamina builds, except the natural vulnerability period that comes after dodge roll).

The only thing bugs like these do is frustrate players (same with the cloak bugs).

glak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

If I remember, it's intended, dodge roll shouldn't avoid everything. I can have misunderstanding, of course.

It doesn't avoid everything, channeled spells (Radiant Destruction & Soul Assault for instance), Meteor, Biting Jabs get a couple hits in guaranteed (even if the target is spamming roll dodge, there is a 0,5~ second time of vulnerability between them), Curse & Detonation go through roll dodge as well.

The thing is, by making hard hitting single target abilities completely unavoidable, you make Magicka NB/DK vs Stamina Build fights terribly one-sided.

You can basicly just hold block & spam one button, which negates every defense available to a stamina DPS (even cloak, if you're a NB).

This only reinforces the "instagib or die" meta currently in place, since you have no way of surviving should you fail to do so (e.g. target is blocking or has tons of health and shields up).

But NB can use Fear against magicka users. Fear goes through block.

And magicka user can use Break Free to break Fear before any damage is made. Your point being?

Vanzen

Are you joking ?!!
Ten of us couldnt put a dent in a rolling clown even with whip and so on. Nirn+infinite dodge + rally+ vigor.
And now you want invulnerability from everything ?
Go play skyrim with cheat engine if you want god mode.

DDuke

Vanzen wrote: »

Are you joking ?!!
Ten of us couldnt put a dent in a rolling clown even with whip and so on. Nirn+infinite dodge + rally+ vigor.
And know you want invulnerability from everything ?
Go play skyrim with cheat engine if you want god mode.

Well, could the ten of you have played better? Just one person using any of the dozen of non-bugged or bugged counters to dodge roll could've killed the "rolling clown". Even as a stamina build, I can kill anyone dodge rolling around just by timing attacks right.


Nirnhoned is a separate issue, not everyone is using it (especially knowing it's going to get nerfed soon).


Dodge roll is far from "invulnerability" (which is fine by the way), you'd know this if you had played a stamina build.

What is not fine is someone holding right mouse button, becoming practically immune to your attacks & whipping you to death by ignoring every single viable defensive mechanism you have (dodge roll & cloak in case of NB). This is not fine, because there is nothing you can do to counter/prevent it (except instagibbing him from stealth before the fight even begins).

Dositheus

The near invulnerable snb dks are definitely on the return swing, which is fine imo. I have definitely come accross a couple of them that I couldn't kill, but they really couldn't kill me unless I stayed in melee and let them whip the poo out of me while blocking either. It was basically a stand off, which either ended with us parting ways, or their reinforcements arriving and killing me. (Yeah, I stayed around too long a few times). I agree getting whipped to death while they block is not too much fun, but it also just means I avoid those guys now. I'll sit back from range and throw crap at them, and let them run around blocking, dropping standards and whipping at anyone stupid enough to get close.

Ffastyl

DDuke wrote: »

What is not fine is someone holding right mouse button, becoming practically immune to your attacks & whipping you to death by ignoring every single viable defensive mechanism you have (dodge roll & cloak in case of NB). This is not fine, because there is nothing you can do to counter/prevent it (except instagibbing him from stealth before the fight even begins).

You seem to have forgotten about fear and other unblockable attacks. Even if an unblockable attack is not accessible to you, focus your efforts on damaging the blocker's Stamina pool. As a Templar, I use Biting Jabs to deplete my opponent's Stamina. You don't have to hit hard, just hit a lot in short period of time. Animation cancelling is another means to launching swift attacks. Dual Wield has Flurry, which is a 7-hit attack. The Stamina pool is not infinite (save for Werewolf Bosmer Nightblades in 7/7 Medium Armor and 3/3 Cost Reduction +X CP into Moon Calf / Warlord).

I have dueled such a Dragonknight and we were evenly matched in close quarters. There were adjustments made to both bars after we concluded a draw, but not enough time to go at it again.

DDuke wrote: »

A stamina DPS isn't built around blocking, and it is used only reactively in certain situations. It isn't your main, only form of defense, not in any fight (if it was, you'd be using Heavy Armour to reduce the cost of blocking).

I apply full Heavy Armor and do not block while my Resistances are buffed. I do not need to dodge roll, nor turtle to stay alive. I can take hits that may kill another, regenerate, and continue the fight. Which makes me unqualified for commenting on full Medium Armor Stamina play. However, I can and will comment on Stamina play where it falls under my experience.

DDuke

Ffastyl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What is not fine is someone holding right mouse button, becoming practically immune to your attacks & whipping you to death by ignoring every single viable defensive mechanism you have (dodge roll & cloak in case of NB). This is not fine, because there is nothing you can do to counter/prevent it (except instagibbing him from stealth before the fight even begins).

You seem to have forgotten about fear and other unblockable attacks. Even if an unblockable attack is not accessible to you, focus your efforts on damaging the blocker's Stamina pool. As a Templar, I use Biting Jabs to deplete my opponent's Stamina. You don't have to hit hard, just hit a lot in short period of time. Animation cancelling is another means to launching swift attacks. Dual Wield has Flurry, which is a 7-hit attack. The Stamina pool is not infinite (save for Werewolf Bosmer Nightblades in 7/7 Medium Armor and 3/3 Cost Reduction +X CP into Moon Calf / Warlord).

I have dueled such a Dragonknight and we were evenly matched in close quarters. There were adjustments made to both bars after we concluded a draw, but not enough time to go at it again.

DDuke wrote: »

A stamina DPS isn't built around blocking, and it is used only reactively in certain situations. It isn't your main, only form of defense, not in any fight (if it was, you'd be using Heavy Armour to reduce the cost of blocking).

I apply full Heavy Armor and do not block while my Resistances are buffed. I do not need to dodge roll, nor turtle to stay alive. I can take hits that may kill another, regenerate, and continue the fight. Which makes me unqualified for commenting on full Medium Armor Stamina play. However, I can and will comment on Stamina play where it falls under my experience.

As a Templar, you're likely using Blazing Shield, correct? Especially considering you're using heavy armour (buffing up your health pool). This means you have another line of defense, where it actually even makes sense not to block or dodge roll (you want maximum dmg output from the shield & blocking doesn't reduce dmg taken by the shield).

This "luxury" is not available to other classes playing stamina builds, such as NB or Sorc, leaving you with cloak (broken instantly by the same skills which bypass dodge roll) in case of NB & BoL in case of Sorc.

The fact is, you can't stand there taking hits (around 3-4k incoming DPS from whip alone, when not abusing nirn 50% resistance), while dealing 400-500 DPS to your opponent who likely has higher sustain than you as well (since he's built around that).

Contrary to the popular belief, there are permablockers with infinite stamina pool (unless they're blocking 5+ targets), and you can't just run away from them either when you get spammed by shield charge & snared by the Ardent Flame abilities when fighting a DK, or Teleport Strike spammed when fighting a magicka NB.

A heavy armour templar plays very, very differently from the usual medium armour stamina NB, so you might not be aware how broken the game currently is, both the insane burst dmg output of these builds, and the absolute helplessness when faced by certain opponents (players with atleast semi-competent reaction times who know how to break CC instantly).