The post 1.6 Templar: Thoughts and Suggestions

ThatHappyCat

So 1.6 brought in some pretty sweeping buffs to Templar skills across the board (with a few weird exceptions), the primary aim of which seems to be to improve Templar magicka (and to some extent stamina) DPS. While I do appreciate the buffs, I feel that overall Templars are still behind when it comes to magicka DPS; and some changes brought on by 1.6 simply don't make sense.

So, to follow are my thoughts and suggestions for Templar skills and passives...



Aedric Spear

Radial Sweep

Radius of direct hit and aura increased from 5m to 8m.

Because 5m was deceptively short given how big the animation is, and frequently fails to minor differences in elevation. Also the description is misleading, it doesn't apply a DoT... it gives yourself a pulsing damage aura.



Puncturing Strikes

Duration of CC immunity automatically granted to knockbacked enemies reduced from 5s to 2s.

So 1.6 brought in some much appreciated changes to make Puncturing Strikes a viable source of DPS, but then ZOS took two steps back by making it grant enemies free CC immunity. Given that Puncturing Strikes (and all knockback skills) doesn't actually CC enemies for any significant period of time, making it give them the full CC immunity makes Templars wish it didn't do any knockback at all.



Puncturing Sweep

Renamed to Restoring Strikes.

The name is a relic from when the morph increased the AoE cone angle. It no longer makes sense.



Piercing Javelin

Duration of CC immunity automatically granted to knockbacked enemies reduced from 5s to 2s. Now also interrupts casting targets, setting them off-balance for 5s.

Same deal as with Puncturing Strikes. The skill itself is also pretty useless given its cost, and I think Focused Charge's interrupt works better here. If you were wondering what's the point of adding an interrupt when knockback already interrupts, it allows it to work through CC immunity.



Aurora Javelin

Now also increases range from 20m to 28m. Maximum damage bonus with distance increased from 40% to 80%.

The mediocre range meant that the damage bonus dropped off really quickly, so I thought that needed to be extended. It also dealt pretty pitiful damage even at maximum range given the high cost of the spell.



Binding Javelin

No longer uses or scales off stamina. No longer stuns target. Now Immobilises target for 4s.

Changing this to use stamina was the most pointless Templar change in 1.6, no one used it for damage (if they used it at all) so no one cares what it scaled off of; and a stamina Templar would much rather use their magicka pool for CC anyway. The stun was also a bit pointless because the spell costs too much and in PvP (which is the only place this skill would see any regular use) people either CC break immediately or die, so having a reasonable stun time isn't a great selling point. Oh and it's pretty much inferior to Fire Clench in almost every way. On the other hand Templars are the only class without inherent access to Immobilise, and IMO this is a great skill to add it to.



Focused Charge

No longer interrupts casting targets.

Reason this is here is because I suggested it be moved to Piercing Javelin instead. No one uses this for the interrupt specifically anyway, it's at most a nice minor bonus; especially since you can take Toppling Charge for a guaranteed stun.



Luminous Shards

No longer increases stamina and magicka restored over time when synergised. Now also restores 25% of the synergiser's maximum magicka when synergised.

People synergise Shards mainly for the instant 25% maximum stamina restore, the restore over time isn't all that significant. Overall I feel Luminous Shards gave too small a benefit compared to Blazing Spear's DPS increase with Burning Light.



Radiant Ward

No longer reduces magicka cost. No longer increases shield strength bonus gained per enemy hit. Now increases shield strength from 33% of your maximum health to 40%. Duration increased from 6s to 12s.

The old bonus was laughable and the magicka cost "decrease" didn't help at all. Needs to actually be a better shield to be comparable to Blazing Shield's DPS.

Dawn's Wrath

Sun Fire

No longer applies Major Prophecy on cast. Now inflicts Minor Breach on enemies for 5s. Projectile speed increased by 50%.

Other magicka Templars may disagree with me on this, but I find that Inner Light's 7% increase to your maximum magicka is too good to pass up for magicka DPS; which makes Sun Fire's Major Prophecy wasted. Minor Breach IMO fits well here. Also the projectile is too damn slow.



Vampire's Bane

Duration of DoT, snare and Minor Breach increased from 7s to 9s.

It's basically a single extra tick of the DoT, which was pretty meh considering Reflective Light multiplied the bolt by 3. Two extra ticks would be more like it.



Solar Flare

CAST TIME???

Okay, I don't really know about this one. I feel like it should be perfectly fine as it is assuming it actually worked as advertised, which I suspect it doesn't: a cast time of 1.1s should allow me to fit about 5 Flares between Backlash casts, but in practice Backlash procs right after I fire off the 3rd Flare. And given that my Flares hit for ~11,000 damage non-crit and ~17,000 crit on a 42% crit chance I should be easily breaking 10,000 DPS, but I'm not. Can ZOS please look into this?



Solar Barrage

No longer removes cast time. No longer reduces damage. Disorients all affected enemies for 2s on hit.

It overlaps far too much with Spear Shards, and I think in general Blazing Spear is a much better AoE spam skill. For anyone who says they like this skill as it is: try Blazing Spear instead. The idea of this change is instead of a spammable AoE as with Impulse, you now have a slow but hard-hitting AoE that also functions as an AoE CC, which Templars lack.



Eclipse

No longer subject to CC immunity. Casting again within 8 seconds increases the spell's magicka cost by 100%.

There was almost no reason to use Eclipse instead of an actual stun, since your opponent's reaction is to CC break immediately either way; in which case I'd much rather lock them down with a stun. And if your opponent can't CC break then a stun would secure you a kill far more reliably (keyword here is reliably) than Eclipse will. To prevent abuse (although it can still be cleansed so it's far from being 100% reliable... looking at you Reflective Scales) give it the Bolt Escape treatment, except twice as harsh because... well, because it can actually be used to kill people.



Total Dark

No longer heals caster per spell reflected. Now applies Minor Maim to target for 6s when effect ends or is cleansed.

Making Total Dark heal was weird and pointless (it's not like Templars are starving for heals), and they didn't even change the name to reflect the change. The old effect of reducing spell damage was nice, so let's bring it back in a more useful form.



Unstable Core

Now also applies Minor Mangle for 15s to target and nearby enemies when effect ends or is cleansed.

The damage was pretty negligible, needed something more to go with it.

Restoring Light

Rite of Passage

Now heals every 0.5s instead of every 1s. Healing per tick reduced by 50%.

Rite of Passage received some nice buffs to its AoE and cost, then ZOS completely ruined the skill by doubling the time between healing ticks. This made is far less effective at healing large groups and it's much, much easier for people (or yourself) to die during the channel, which kind of defeats the point of a healing Ultimate. It has to be reverted.



Honour the Dead

Now uses and scales off stamina. Refunds stamina cost when healing targets below 50% health.

No healer, or even magicka DPS, will choose Honour the Dead over Breath of Life; it's the core of Templar healing. Instead of trying to buff Honour the Dead to match it (which can cause its own problems), giving it over to stamina builds ensures there's no overlap with Breath of Life and possibly opens a unique stamina healer, or at least off-healer, playstyle.



Healing Ritual

Cast time reduced from 2s to 1s. Healing reduced by 50%. Magicka cost reduced by 50%. Radius increased from 10m to 12m. No longer heals caster for an increased amount.

With a cast time of 2s ZOS can make it always fully heal every group member in the area and it would still be useless. Players in ESO die within a second in both PvP and PvE, there's no time to wait for 2s for a burst heal that will either be wasted or completely ineffective. If ZOS wants this to see any use without completely changing the skill then it needs to be much less clunky. Also the radius was reduced from 12m to 10m at release, apparently ZOS balances the game based on complete noobs doing low level dungeons.



Radiant Aura

No longer increases aura radius. Now increases maximum health and stamina by 3.5% for 15s to all allies on cast.

A useless morph effect, and with 1.6 the base skill is useless too. Desperately needs something to make it worth using again.



Repentance

Now scales off either maximum magicka or stamina, whichever is higher.

I don't see a good reason why stamina builds: the ones that actually benefit from this skill: can't use it effectively.



Restoring Focus

Now grants Major Vitality instead of Minor Vitality when near the rune.

8% was nothing and not at all worth taking over Channelled Focus. And no, everyone uses magicka to some degree, if you don't your build is gimped.



Light Weaver

No longer increases Restoring Aura's duration. No longer grants Ultimate to allies with Healing Ritual. Now increases your armour and spell resistance when casting or channelling any skill.

Casting here meaning skills with a cast time. Light Weaver was a trash passive, it affects three skills and all three are useless in 1.6. Given that Templars have so many casted and channelled skills I think this would be an apt bonus: not necessarily on the level of Rite of Passage's old Light Weaver bonus, but something.



Master Ritualist

Chance of filling an empty soul gem on resurrection increased from 25%/50% to 50%/100%.

Yeah, the description is misleading: instead of giving you a new soul gem it just fills an empty one in your inventory, otherwise it does nothing. Should be 100% if that's intended.

Soris

tldr: Give me this

david.haypreub18_ESO

I agree with much of what you said. The Templar needs an AoE CC (I would suggest making Biting Jabs root rather than changing Javelin, though Javelin needs help too). Our damage shield also got an indirect nerf in PvP when ZOS realized shield stacking in PvP would be too powerful.

Overall, I think that Templars are different, but still very close to where they were before the attempts to rebalance: that is, at the bottom of the heap for PvP. This can no longer be justified with claims that the Templars are the best healers-- they are, but the gap between them and the other classes has been significantly narrowed, while the gap between Templars and other classes in the other categories has not.

timidobserver

I would be okay with more of your ideas. I'll note the few that I don't care for.
1. Minor Breach and Concentration(from light armor tree) do not stack. Leave vampires bane as prophecy or have it to grant major beserk/minor(+damage), minor force(+crit damage), or major force(+crit damage).
2. Solar flare is in no way fine other than maybe in PvP. It deals bad dps for PVE and the heal debuff is useless in pve content.
3. Radiant Aura should grant major intellect on use given that the passive version of it grants minor intellect.
4. Aurora Javelin should have the cost reduced significantly and damage adjusted as well. I'd like to see this ability given the potential to fill the role of a primary dps ability like crushing shock, wrecking blow, biting jabs, lava whip, funnel health, ect.
5. I am tired of seeing the cast time of healing ritual lowered by like .1 seconds like that will make it less useless. Delete this garbage and put something else there.

glak

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be okay with most of your ideas. I'll note the few that I don't care for.
1. Minor Breach and Concentration(from light armor tree) do not stack. Leave vampires bane as prophecy or have it to grant major beserk/minor(+damage), minor force(+crit damage), or major force(+crit damage).
2. Solar flare is in no way fine other than maybe in PvP. It deals bad dps for PVE and the heal debuff is useless in pve content.
3. Radiant Aura should grant major intellect on use given that the passive version of it grants minor intellect.
4. Aurora Javelin should have the cost reduced significantly and damage adjusted as well. I'd like to see this ability given the potential to fill the role of a primary dps ability like crushing shock, wrecking blow, biting jabs, lava whip, funnel health, ect.
5. I am tired of seeing the cast time of healing ritual lowered by like .1 seconds like that will make it less useless. Delete this garbage and put something else there.

Great response.
When you have time, let us know what that something else in place of healing ritual should be.

timidobserver

glak wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be okay with most of your ideas. I'll note the few that I don't care for.
1. Minor Breach and Concentration(from light armor tree) do not stack. Leave vampires bane as prophecy or have it to grant major beserk/minor(+damage), minor force(+crit damage), or major force(+crit damage).
2. Solar flare is in no way fine other than maybe in PvP. It deals bad dps for PVE and the heal debuff is useless in pve content.
3. Radiant Aura should grant major intellect on use given that the passive version of it grants minor intellect.
4. Aurora Javelin should have the cost reduced significantly and damage adjusted as well. I'd like to see this ability given the potential to fill the role of a primary dps ability like crushing shock, wrecking blow, biting jabs, lava whip, funnel health, ect.
5. I am tired of seeing the cast time of healing ritual lowered by like .1 seconds like that will make it less useless. Delete this garbage and put something else there.

Great response.
When you have time, let us know what that something else in place of healing ritual should be.

Some kind of HoT or some kind of green dragon blood like self heal for tanks. Anything without a cast time.

likewow777

timidobserver wrote: »

glak wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be okay with most of your ideas. I'll note the few that I don't care for.
1. Minor Breach and Concentration(from light armor tree) do not stack. Leave vampires bane as prophecy or have it to grant major beserk/minor(+damage), minor force(+crit damage), or major force(+crit damage).
2. Solar flare is in no way fine other than maybe in PvP. It deals bad dps for PVE and the heal debuff is useless in pve content.
3. Radiant Aura should grant major intellect on use given that the passive version of it grants minor intellect.
4. Aurora Javelin should have the cost reduced significantly and damage adjusted as well. I'd like to see this ability given the potential to fill the role of a primary dps ability like crushing shock, wrecking blow, biting jabs, lava whip, funnel health, ect.
5. I am tired of seeing the cast time of healing ritual lowered by like .1 seconds like that will make it less useless. Delete this garbage and put something else there.

Great response.
When you have time, let us know what that something else in place of healing ritual should be.

Some kind of HoT or some kind of green dragon blood like self heal for tanks. Anything without a cast time.

Was thinking the same thing for Healing Ritual. Basically, a non-resto staff version of Rapid Regen, but to allies in the area, keeping the same radius it currently has. It gives the notion of, "Stay close to the healer" more meaning. Hell, it would even be good for tanks.

As for the other changes in the original post:

Radiant Ward - You'll have to beat me to death and pry Blazing Shield from my cold dead fingers before I give it up. Your proposal is a great idea, but I kind of wish it scaled off of magicka instead of health.

Radiant Aura - This thing desperately needs a change, perhaps along the lines of what you're proposing. The only trouble I'm seeing is that 3.5% doesn't really give much. For my stats, it's like 400 stamina and 800 health. I'd still take the Repentance morph. I've said previously that I wanted this to give the caster a buff similar to the original skill, and it can continue to give allies the lesser 30% it currently does.

Sun Fire - Gina did say recently that they're looking to speed up the projectile. Hopefully they stick to that and deliver, but time will tell.

I'd also like the Restoring Spirit passive to actually restore something. Reducing costs, especially with the Champion System out, makes this such a waste. Give me something like DK's Battle Roar, or the Red Diamond Imperial passive, with it having 10% chance to restore some X amount of magicka and stamina. Something that, once and for all, gives Templars better sustain just for being a Templar, rather than slotting Radiant Aura or casting Channeled Focus.

ThatHappyCat

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be okay with more of your ideas. I'll note the few that I don't care for.
1. Minor Breach and Concentration(from light armor tree) do not stack. Leave vampires bane as prophecy or have it to grant major beserk/minor(+damage), minor force(+crit damage), or major force(+crit damage).
2. Solar flare is in no way fine other than maybe in PvP. It deals bad dps for PVE and the heal debuff is useless in pve content.
3. Radiant Aura should grant major intellect on use given that the passive version of it grants minor intellect.
4. Aurora Javelin should have the cost reduced significantly and damage adjusted as well. I'd like to see this ability given the potential to fill the role of a primary dps ability like crushing shock, wrecking blow, biting jabs, lava whip, funnel health, ect.
5. I am tired of seeing the cast time of healing ritual lowered by like .1 seconds like that will make it less useless. Delete this garbage and put something else there.

Concentration is a unique debuff, it isn't Minor Breach. Therefore it does stack.

I didn't say Solar Flare was fine, but in theory if it actually worked like its tooltip suggests it should be (12k non-crit and 17k crit on a 1.1s cast time should be great DPS). It doesn't, so I suspect the tooltip is wrong.

Radiant Aura giving Major Intellect wouldn't make any difference (most people probably have the relevant Major buff on anyway with potions).

Well, I suggested Healing Ritual's cast time be lowed by 10x what you said there. I don't think Healing Ritual should be a HoT or anything that can stack with Breath of Life, because that would bring Templar healing up and I don't think ZOS wants that.

likewow777 wrote: »

Radiant Aura - This thing desperately needs a change, perhaps along the lines of what you're proposing. The only trouble I'm seeing is that 3.5% doesn't really give much. For my stats, it's like 400 stamina and 800 health. I'd still take the Repentance morph. I've said previously that I wanted this to give the caster a buff similar to the original skill, and it can continue to give allies the lesser 30% it currently does.

I'd also like the Restoring Spirit passive to actually restore something. Reducing costs, especially with the Champion System out, makes this such a waste. Give me something like DK's Battle Roar, or the Red Diamond Imperial passive, with it having 10% chance to restore some X amount of magicka and stamina. Something that, once and for all, gives Templars better sustain just for being a Templar, rather than slotting Radiant Aura or casting Channeled Focus.

The main draw of the maximum stamina boost is it increases stamina DPS. I'm hesitant to make it a bigger number or people will demand Templars use it.

I don't think Restoring Spirit is a waste at all, it's a great passive as it is with or without the Champion system (the "it only takes X Champion points to replicate this" is a fallacy when Champion points suffer from severe diminishing returns while passives do not). Sure the old Restoring Spirit passive was nice, but I don't think anyone can deny it was also ridiculously overpowered.

likewow777

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

likewow777 wrote: »

Radiant Aura - This thing desperately needs a change, perhaps along the lines of what you're proposing. The only trouble I'm seeing is that 3.5% doesn't really give much. For my stats, it's like 400 stamina and 800 health. I'd still take the Repentance morph. I've said previously that I wanted this to give the caster a buff similar to the original skill, and it can continue to give allies the lesser 30% it currently does.

I'd also like the Restoring Spirit passive to actually restore something. Reducing costs, especially with the Champion System out, makes this such a waste. Give me something like DK's Battle Roar, or the Red Diamond Imperial passive, with it having 10% chance to restore some X amount of magicka and stamina. Something that, once and for all, gives Templars better sustain just for being a Templar, rather than slotting Radiant Aura or casting Channeled Focus.

The main draw of the maximum stamina boost is it increases stamina DPS. I'm hesitant to make it a bigger number or people will demand Templars use it.

I don't think Restoring Spirit is a waste at all, it's a great passive as it is with or without the Champion system (the "it only takes X Champion points to replicate this" is a fallacy when Champion points suffer from severe diminishing returns while passives do not). Sure the old Restoring Spirit passive was nice, but I don't think anyone can deny it was also ridiculously overpowered.

Your reasoning for not having a massive stamina boost makes sense. A bigger number is not going to be the best idea, but I'm not 100% sure on the suggested change. Maybe I'll come around.

As for Restoring Spirit, saying it's a waste might have been a bit harsh. But, I would say (the below is a bit of a rant, sorry):

Correct if I'm wrong, but the diminishing returns to CPs only applies to the number of CPs required to achieve a certain percentage (each subsequent CP gives less back than the previous one). However, once one has accepted the Point cost, and has invested to obtain that desired magicka/stamina reduction, said reduction acts in the same way as any class passive. A 4% reduction from CPs is the same 4% as that from Restoring Spirit.

I don't know the exact number, but something like 10 Champion Points gives roughly the 4% that the passive gives. It's also currently accepted that people are grinding CPs, and I myself can get 2/3/4/5 points in a single night just from questing (depends on Enlightenment, how fast I'm questing, etc). Both my stamina DK and stamina NB have points in stamina reduction, totalling to 5-6% for each of them, effectively giving them the part of Restoring Spirit that I'm really interested in. It might just be me, but that just makes the Templar passive lackluster.

Granted, the ultimate reduction is something that you can't get from CPs. That said, I've never once been on my NB, for example, staring at my ultimate pool and said to myself, "God, I really wish I had Restoring Spirit. That 4% would be amazing right now." Not to mention, Sorcs get a much stronger ultimate reduction passive.

My main complaint is, the concept of a class passive giving back resources is something all the other classes have, and it's a normal and acceptable thing to exist. A flat 4% decrease doesn't give the sustain that a resource return passive would give, and that's what I think Restoring Spirit should be. I'm not saying it should be what it was in beta, but I think they've gone too far the other way by changing it to what it is now. The argument I made about CPs mimicking the passive is just an added piece to my point.

TL;DR: Restoring Spirit isn't a catastrophe, but I really want it, or another class passive, to be one that gives back resources based on damage or kills, or something. Anyway, just my opinion.

EDIT: Messed up quotations on initial post.

Alcast

Stam Temp in PvE already top.
Magicka Temp in PvE kindish ok but could be better
And both in PvP kinda crap

Aedric spear passives are fine. They could make Balanced Warrior scale of higher stat so that you get either higher Spelldmg or Weap dmg.

Dawns Wrath is utterly bullcrap. No offensive passives. Prism and Illuminati are really crap, they offer bonuses, but no real passive bonuses for templar. They could add some more stats to those 2. Maybe smth like inc Magic dmg by xy.

Restoring light no clue tbh.

Empowering sweep - Did I EVER hit somebody with this? 5m lolrange
Blazing Spear - they could make it so it scales of the higher stat like Burning light.
Blazing Shield - Make it scale of Stam/Mag like sorcerer *** shield.

Sunfire - too slow, easy to dodgeroll
Darkflare - too slow, easy to dodgeroll


all we would need for Dawns wrath is a passive like Kindling from DK but instead of inc fire dmg lets inc magic dmg.

ThatHappyCat

likewow777 wrote: »

snip

The 4% reduction from Restoring Spirit (and also other cost reduction passives like Breton's 3%) are valuable because that 4% is basically free without contributing to the diminishing returns of the Champion passive.

For example, let's say you put 50 points into cost reduction for 10% reduced costs, with Restoring Spirit that's a total of 14%. To achieve 14% without Restoring Spirit, you will need another say 35 points in the passive... but if you had Restoring Spirit, you can invest those 35 points in something else (which can be say 10% extra damage: in which case you can think of Restoring Spirit as giving you that 10% damage because of the points you saved).

I'm not sure how I can explain this any clearer. A way to think about is is that Restoring Spirit is added to the end of the Champion passive, rather than being a "beginning" that the Champion passive builds on, and because Champion passives have severe diminishing returns being at the "end" instead of the "beginning" means it's value increases exponentially as you invest points into the passive.

Therefore the more heavily you invest in the cost reduction passive, the more valuable Restoring Spirit becomes at an accelerating rate. The only situation where "Restoring Spirit is useless because I can put 10 points in the Champion passive and get the same effect" holds somewhat true is if you don't plan on investing in the passive at all.

I hope that clears things up a bit, though it probably didn't with the way I explained it.

Alcast wrote: »

Stam Temp in PvE already top.
Magicka Temp in PvE kindish ok but could be better
And both in PvP kinda crap

Aedric spear passives are fine. They could make Balanced Warrior scale of higher stat so that you get either higher Spelldmg or Weap dmg.

Dawns Wrath is utterly bullcrap. No offensive passives. Prism and Illuminati are really crap, they offer bonuses, but no real passive bonuses for templar. They could add some more stats to those 2. Maybe smth like inc Magic dmg by xy.

Restoring light no clue tbh.

Empowering sweep - Did I EVER hit somebody with this? 5m lolrange
Blazing Spear - they could make it so it scales of the higher stat like Burning light.
Blazing Shield - Make it scale of Stam/Mag like sorcerer *** shield.

Sunfire - too slow, easy to dodgeroll
Darkflare - too slow, easy to dodgeroll


all we would need for Dawns wrath is a passive like Kindling from DK but instead of inc fire dmg lets inc magic dmg.

Prism is the same as DK's Ulti gain passive. Apparently ZOS hates Ulti gain now. Illuminate is great, it boosts you and your allies' spell damage by 5% plus there's equivalent passives for other minor buffs in other classes.

I mentioned increasing Radial Sweep's radius so I definitely agree with you there. I don't think Blazing Spear needs to scale off stamina if it's higher, there's plenty of good stamina AoE DPS options (Steel Tornado blows most magicka AoEs out of the water). I'm fine with Blazing Shield scaling off health personally, someone mentioned Radiant Ward could scale off magicka and I'd be fine with that too.

ZOS mentioned Sun Fire should be getting a speed buff. Solar Flare isn't really useable in PvP IMO outside of a 1vX situation where you are part of the X, it's far too easy to interrupt and unlike Puncturing Strikes or Radiant Destruction you gain absolutely nothing if it gets interrupted. I just want to see it become viable for PvE DPS.

timidobserver

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be okay with more of your ideas. I'll note the few that I don't care for.
1. Minor Breach and Concentration(from light armor tree) do not stack. Leave vampires bane as prophecy or have it to grant major beserk/minor(+damage), minor force(+crit damage), or major force(+crit damage).
2. Solar flare is in no way fine other than maybe in PvP. It deals bad dps for PVE and the heal debuff is useless in pve content.
3. Radiant Aura should grant major intellect on use given that the passive version of it grants minor intellect.
4. Aurora Javelin should have the cost reduced significantly and damage adjusted as well. I'd like to see this ability given the potential to fill the role of a primary dps ability like crushing shock, wrecking blow, biting jabs, lava whip, funnel health, ect.
5. I am tired of seeing the cast time of healing ritual lowered by like .1 seconds like that will make it less useless. Delete this garbage and put something else there.

Concentration is a unique debuff, it isn't Minor Breach. Therefore it does stack.

I didn't say Solar Flare was fine, but in theory if it actually worked like its tooltip suggests it should be (12k non-crit and 17k crit on a 1.1s cast time should be great DPS). It doesn't, so I suspect the tooltip is wrong.

Radiant Aura giving Major Intellect wouldn't make any difference (most people probably have the relevant Major buff on anyway with potions).

Well, I suggested Healing Ritual's cast time be lowed by 10x what you said there. I don't think Healing Ritual should be a HoT or anything that can stack with Breath of Life, because that would bring Templar healing up and I don't think ZOS wants that.

When I said it is in no way fine, I was referring to this line from your post " I feel like it should be perfectly fine as it is assuming it actually worked as advertised." Even if it "worked as advertised" it would be garbage. Sitting there casting Darkflare is like a Sorc sitting there hard casting crystal fragments.

Radiant Aura has been primarily used by tanks. Getting major intellect from the skill would be useful to them given that they usually don't pop triple pots on cooldown but as needed. There is no reason for it not to give major intellect.

Your response to what suggested for healing is why I am usually reluctant to give a specific description of what I think it should be changed to, because that kinds of gets away from my actual point about healing ritual. It just ends up being a "this is why your idea is bad." My suggestions was just a shot in the dark as something they could change it to that would be more useful because someone requested a suggestion. However, the actual point is that healing ritual so bad that I would be fine with it being removed and nothing put in it's place. Every time I group with a healer that uses it, it's always an unpleasant group. I don't care what they put there as long as healing ritual isn't there anymore. I would take a dps buff, something to buff tanks, run speed, mitigation, something to buff healers, or anything other than healing ritual.

ThatHappyCat

timidobserver wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be okay with more of your ideas. I'll note the few that I don't care for.
1. Minor Breach and Concentration(from light armor tree) do not stack. Leave vampires bane as prophecy or have it to grant major beserk/minor(+damage), minor force(+crit damage), or major force(+crit damage).
2. Solar flare is in no way fine other than maybe in PvP. It deals bad dps for PVE and the heal debuff is useless in pve content.
3. Radiant Aura should grant major intellect on use given that the passive version of it grants minor intellect.
4. Aurora Javelin should have the cost reduced significantly and damage adjusted as well. I'd like to see this ability given the potential to fill the role of a primary dps ability like crushing shock, wrecking blow, biting jabs, lava whip, funnel health, ect.
5. I am tired of seeing the cast time of healing ritual lowered by like .1 seconds like that will make it less useless. Delete this garbage and put something else there.

Concentration is a unique debuff, it isn't Minor Breach. Therefore it does stack.

I didn't say Solar Flare was fine, but in theory if it actually worked like its tooltip suggests it should be (12k non-crit and 17k crit on a 1.1s cast time should be great DPS). It doesn't, so I suspect the tooltip is wrong.

Radiant Aura giving Major Intellect wouldn't make any difference (most people probably have the relevant Major buff on anyway with potions).

Well, I suggested Healing Ritual's cast time be lowed by 10x what you said there. I don't think Healing Ritual should be a HoT or anything that can stack with Breath of Life, because that would bring Templar healing up and I don't think ZOS wants that.

When I said it is in no way fine, I was referring to this line from your post " I feel like it should be perfectly fine as it is assuming it actually worked as advertised." Even if it "worked as advertised" it would be garbage. Sitting there hard cast Darkflare is like a Sorc sitting there hard casting crystal fragments.

You're thinking in terms of PvP here. In PvE boss fights you can use skills with cast times just fine, the only real downside is it can't be blockcast but then again if you're weaving you wouldn't be blockcasting anyway. If you need to move out of an AoE you can cancel the cast to move faster, might lose a bit of DPS compared to weaving instant skills but in most fights (that matter) that doesn't happen often enough to have a significant impact.

IMO it's fine for a skill to be useless in either PvP or PvE, lots of skills are like that. I don't mind that Solar Flare isn't usable in PvP as long as it produces good DPS (which it should if the numbers are correct) in PvE.

timidobserver

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be okay with more of your ideas. I'll note the few that I don't care for.
1. Minor Breach and Concentration(from light armor tree) do not stack. Leave vampires bane as prophecy or have it to grant major beserk/minor(+damage), minor force(+crit damage), or major force(+crit damage).
2. Solar flare is in no way fine other than maybe in PvP. It deals bad dps for PVE and the heal debuff is useless in pve content.
3. Radiant Aura should grant major intellect on use given that the passive version of it grants minor intellect.
4. Aurora Javelin should have the cost reduced significantly and damage adjusted as well. I'd like to see this ability given the potential to fill the role of a primary dps ability like crushing shock, wrecking blow, biting jabs, lava whip, funnel health, ect.
5. I am tired of seeing the cast time of healing ritual lowered by like .1 seconds like that will make it less useless. Delete this garbage and put something else there.

Concentration is a unique debuff, it isn't Minor Breach. Therefore it does stack.

I didn't say Solar Flare was fine, but in theory if it actually worked like its tooltip suggests it should be (12k non-crit and 17k crit on a 1.1s cast time should be great DPS). It doesn't, so I suspect the tooltip is wrong.

Radiant Aura giving Major Intellect wouldn't make any difference (most people probably have the relevant Major buff on anyway with potions).

Well, I suggested Healing Ritual's cast time be lowed by 10x what you said there. I don't think Healing Ritual should be a HoT or anything that can stack with Breath of Life, because that would bring Templar healing up and I don't think ZOS wants that.

When I said it is in no way fine, I was referring to this line from your post " I feel like it should be perfectly fine as it is assuming it actually worked as advertised." Even if it "worked as advertised" it would be garbage. Sitting there hard cast Darkflare is like a Sorc sitting there hard casting crystal fragments.

You're thinking in terms of PvP here. In PvE boss fights you can use skills with cast times just fine, the only real downside is it can't be blockcast but then again if you're weaving you wouldn't be blockcasting anyway. If you need to move out of an AoE you can cancel the cast to move faster, might lose a bit of DPS compared to weaving instant skills but it most fights (that matter) that doesn't happen often enough to have a significant impact.

IMO it's fine for a skill to be useless in either PvP or PvE, lots of skills are like that. I don't mind that Solar Flare isn't usable in PvP as long as it produces good DPS (which it should if the numbers are correct) in PvE.

Nothing I said is in terms of PvP. I am talking purely about PVE. Darkflare is horrible for PVE in general. Mediocre dps and limited mobility. You are going to underperform in Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA if you use Darkflare as your primary dps, which means that you are going to fail at the highest endgame content currently in the game.

ThatHappyCat

timidobserver wrote: »

Nothing I said is in terms of PvP. I am talking purely about PVE. Darkflare is horrible for PVE in general. Mediocre dps and limited mobility. You are going to underperform in Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA if you use Darkflare as your primary dps, which means that you are going to fail at the highest endgame content currently in the game.

Which goes back to what I said before, if the numbers were actually correct it should be perfectly fine DPS. The numbers I mentioned (~1.1k non-crit, ~1.7k crit, 42% crit chance) is against trial bosses, on a 1.1s cooldown that should equate to an average DPS of ~1.2k, which is pretty good. But it isn't, which means the time between casts must be longer than 1.1s.

The limited mobility is no problem as I mentioned. Against the Mantikora you basically stand still for the popcorn phases unless a popcorn spawns on you, which shouldn't be too common an occurence; and during the portal phase you have plenty of time to stand still and DPS between spears. Against the Serpent it's even easier as unless you're on the Lamia group you won't be moving at all except to grab pink bubbles or move away from a totem.

timidobserver

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nothing I said is in terms of PvP. I am talking purely about PVE. Darkflare is horrible for PVE in general. Mediocre dps and limited mobility. You are going to underperform in Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA if you use Darkflare as your primary dps, which means that you are going to fail at the highest endgame content currently in the game.

Which goes back to what I said before, if the numbers were actually correct it should be perfectly fine DPS. The numbers I mentioned (~1.1k non-crit, ~1.7k crit, 42% crit chance) is against trial bosses, on a 1.1s cooldown that should equate to an average DPS of ~1.35k, which is pretty good. But it isn't, which means the time between casts must be longer than 1.1s.

The limited mobility is no problem as I mentioned. Against the Mantikora you basically stand still for the popcorn phases unless a popcorn spawns on you, which shouldn't be too common an occurence; and during the portal phase you have plenty of time to stand still and DPS between spears. Against the Serpent it's even easier as unless you're on the Lamia group you won't be moving at all except to grab pink bubbles.

The numbers are correct when you take boss mitigations into consideration. The cast time just doesn't tell you the whole story. It takes 1.1 seconds to cast and then another 1-3 seconds to impact depending on how far away you are and lag.

Correct, it would cause you the most trouble against the Mantikora. However, you probably don't want to be using something with a cast time for your dps against Ra Kotu(Hel Ra), Yokeda Kai(Hel Ra), Whispmother(AA), Stonebreaker(SO), the Warrior(Hel Ra), boss 3,4,5 of vet COA, or anywhere in Vet DSA. Sure, you can force it to work on those bosses if you are a masochist and like doing things the hard way, but you'd end up having better dps and an easier time in general by using other skills for dps. IMO, it would only be worth it if you gained more dps for the trouble of using it(Like wrecking blow.)

EDIT: You probably don't want to use it in any hard mode trial either.

ThatHappyCat

timidobserver wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nothing I said is in terms of PvP. I am talking purely about PVE. Darkflare is horrible for PVE in general. Mediocre dps and limited mobility. You are going to underperform in Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA if you use Darkflare as your primary dps, which means that you are going to fail at the highest endgame content currently in the game.

Which goes back to what I said before, if the numbers were actually correct it should be perfectly fine DPS. The numbers I mentioned (~1.1k non-crit, ~1.7k crit, 42% crit chance) is against trial bosses, on a 1.1s cooldown that should equate to an average DPS of ~1.35k, which is pretty good. But it isn't, which means the time between casts must be longer than 1.1s.

The limited mobility is no problem as I mentioned. Against the Mantikora you basically stand still for the popcorn phases unless a popcorn spawns on you, which shouldn't be too common an occurence; and during the portal phase you have plenty of time to stand still and DPS between spears. Against the Serpent it's even easier as unless you're on the Lamia group you won't be moving at all except to grab pink bubbles.

The numbers are correct when you take boss mitigations into consideration. The cast time just doesn't tell you the whole story. It takes 1.1 seconds to cast and then another 1-3 seconds to impact depending on how far away you are and lag.

Correct, it would cause you the most trouble against the Mantikora. However, you probably don't want to be using something with a cast time for your dps against Ra Kotu(Hel Ra), Yokeda Kai(Hel Ra), Whispmother(AA), Stonebreaker(SO), the Warrior(Hel Ra), boss 3,4,5 of vet COA, or anywhere in Vet DSA. Sure, you can force it to work on those bosses if you are a masochist and like doing things the hard way, but you'd end up having better dps and an easier time in general by using other skills for dps. IMO, it would only be worth it if you gained more dps for the trouble of using it(Like wrecking blow.)

Considering you can start casting the next Flare right after the previous one is released, and not after the previous one hits, projectile travel time means absolutely nothing...

I'd be perfectly happy using Solar Flare for most of the bosses you mentioned. Ra Kotu is the only one that jumps out at me (because of tornadoes chasing people), the rest mostly have AoEs that you can walk or dodge out of which you can do perfectly fine while casting Solar Flare (dodging ends the cast immediately, you're not trapped or anything). As I already mentioned it is a slight DPS loss compared to weaving but in most cases isn't all that significant, and while it is a bit more troublesome than weaving it has advantages too (very economical magicka expenditure, and Major Defile for bosses that can heal).

(Oh and no repetitive strain injury to your index finger).

Roselle

I agree with most your suggestions, except for the repentance idea. I am extremely against it.

Some people use repentance strictly to get stamina back. I would much rather see Restoring Aura offer morphs to get health/stamina or health/magicka (lower the cost per body perhaps since having 2 templars running both morphs might make sustain very strong in PVP when killing a lot of opponents)...

ThatHappyCat

Roselle wrote: »

I agree with most your suggestions, except for the repentance idea. I am extremely against it.

Some people use repentance strictly to get stamina back. I would much rather see Restoring Aura offer morphs to get health/stamina or health/magicka (lower the cost per body perhaps since having 2 templars running both morphs might make sustain very strong in PVP when killing a lot of opponents)...

The amount of health and stamina Repentance restores is currently based on your maximum magicka. I'm asking for it to be based on your maximum stamina instead if that is higher, so that stamina builds don't get less health and stamina from Repentance than magicka builds.

Roselle

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Roselle wrote: »

I agree with most your suggestions, except for the repentance idea. I am extremely against it.

Some people use repentance strictly to get stamina back. I would much rather see Restoring Aura offer morphs to get health/stamina or health/magicka (lower the cost per body perhaps since having 2 templars running both morphs might make sustain very strong in PVP when killing a lot of opponents)...

The amount of health and stamina Repentance restores is currently based on your maximum magicka. I'm asking for it to be based on your maximum stamina instead if that is higher, so that stamina builds don't get less health and stamina from Repentance than magicka builds.

I see. That could be a decent tweak to Repentance.

I still find my suggestion to the Restoring Aura morphs interesting, though. Or at least worth being looked into.

ThatHappyCat

While a Repentance morph for magicka would be nice, that means the base Restoring Aura skill disappears no matter how you morph it, which is bad (although with the base skill being so useless in 1.6 they could probably just make it work like Repentance does, perhaps for health only with the morphs adding stamina or magicka restore). You could make Repentance restore all three resources but I feel that would be too powerful.

This is also the reason why I didn't suggest adding Major Intellect to Restoring Aura's active, because it seems weird if Repentance then does nothing for magicka.

Roselle

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

While a Repentance morph for magicka would be nice, that means the base Restoring Aura skill disappears no matter how you morph it, which is bad (although with the base skill being so useless in 1.6 they could probably just make it work like Repentance does, perhaps for health only with the morphs adding stamina or magicka restore). You could make Repentance restore all three resources but I feel that would be too powerful.

This is also the reason why I didn't suggest adding Major Intellect to Restoring Aura's active, because it seems weird if Repentance then does nothing for magicka.

I would like templars to be able to do some form of group magicka return. Before 1.6, Negate was able to make up for it, but now I feel sometimes magicka recovery is lacking when I can fill my stamina pool up instantly with Repentance if enough bodies are around.

Perhaps an adjustment to Channeled Focus if Repentance must remain health/stamina.

Fuxo

I would suggest adding a stamina heal/hot into Restoring Light tree. Either as a morph or replacing Healing Ritual with a stamina based skill.

timidobserver

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nothing I said is in terms of PvP. I am talking purely about PVE. Darkflare is horrible for PVE in general. Mediocre dps and limited mobility. You are going to underperform in Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA if you use Darkflare as your primary dps, which means that you are going to fail at the highest endgame content currently in the game.

Which goes back to what I said before, if the numbers were actually correct it should be perfectly fine DPS. The numbers I mentioned (~1.1k non-crit, ~1.7k crit, 42% crit chance) is against trial bosses, on a 1.1s cooldown that should equate to an average DPS of ~1.35k, which is pretty good. But it isn't, which means the time between casts must be longer than 1.1s.

The limited mobility is no problem as I mentioned. Against the Mantikora you basically stand still for the popcorn phases unless a popcorn spawns on you, which shouldn't be too common an occurence; and during the portal phase you have plenty of time to stand still and DPS between spears. Against the Serpent it's even easier as unless you're on the Lamia group you won't be moving at all except to grab pink bubbles.

The numbers are correct when you take boss mitigations into consideration. The cast time just doesn't tell you the whole story. It takes 1.1 seconds to cast and then another 1-3 seconds to impact depending on how far away you are and lag.

Correct, it would cause you the most trouble against the Mantikora. However, you probably don't want to be using something with a cast time for your dps against Ra Kotu(Hel Ra), Yokeda Kai(Hel Ra), Whispmother(AA), Stonebreaker(SO), the Warrior(Hel Ra), boss 3,4,5 of vet COA, or anywhere in Vet DSA. Sure, you can force it to work on those bosses if you are a masochist and like doing things the hard way, but you'd end up having better dps and an easier time in general by using other skills for dps. IMO, it would only be worth it if you gained more dps for the trouble of using it(Like wrecking blow.)

Considering you can start casting the next Flare right after the previous one is released, and not after the previous one hits, projectile travel time means absolutely nothing...

I'd be perfectly happy using Solar Flare for most of the bosses you mentioned. Ra Kotu is the only one that jumps out at me (because of tornadoes chasing people), the rest mostly have AoEs that you can walk or dodge out of which you can do perfectly fine while casting Solar Flare (dodging ends the cast immediately, you're not trapped or anything). As I already mentioned it is a slight DPS loss compared to weaving but in most cases isn't all that significant, and while it is a bit more troublesome than weaving it has advantages too (very economical magicka expenditure, and Major Defile for bosses that can heal).

(Oh and no repetitive strain injury to your index finger).

I was going to do a huge response, but it isn't worth it. I can't imagine how anyone that regularly obtains top scores/times in trials, hard mode trials, and vet dsa could possibly think that Dark Flare is viable or even nearly worth using for dps. You work harder to get less dps, but it isn't worth debating for 3 pages so I am done lol.

Alcast

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

likewow777 wrote: »

snip

The 4% reduction from Restoring Spirit (and also other cost reduction passives like Breton's 3%) are valuable because that 4% is basically free without contributing to the diminishing returns of the Champion passive.

For example, let's say you put 50 points into cost reduction for 10% reduced costs, with Restoring Spirit that's a total of 14%. To achieve 14% without Restoring Spirit, you will need another say 35 points in the passive... but if you had Restoring Spirit, you can invest those 35 points in something else (which can be say 10% extra damage: in which case you can think of Restoring Spirit as giving you that 10% damage because of the points you saved).

I'm not sure how I can explain this any clearer. A way to think about is is that Restoring Spirit is added to the end of the Champion passive, rather than being a "beginning" that the Champion passive builds on, and because Champion passives have severe diminishing returns being at the "end" instead of the "beginning" means it's value increases exponentially as you invest points into the passive.

Therefore the more heavily you invest in the cost reduction passive, the more valuable Restoring Spirit becomes at an accelerating rate. The only situation where "Restoring Spirit is useless because I can put 10 points in the Champion passive and get the same effect" holds somewhat true is if you don't plan on investing in the passive at all.

I hope that clears things up a bit, though it probably didn't with the way I explained it.

Alcast wrote: »

Stam Temp in PvE already top.
Magicka Temp in PvE kindish ok but could be better
And both in PvP kinda crap

Aedric spear passives are fine. They could make Balanced Warrior scale of higher stat so that you get either higher Spelldmg or Weap dmg.

Dawns Wrath is utterly bullcrap. No offensive passives. Prism and Illuminati are really crap, they offer bonuses, but no real passive bonuses for templar. They could add some more stats to those 2. Maybe smth like inc Magic dmg by xy.

Restoring light no clue tbh.

Empowering sweep - Did I EVER hit somebody with this? 5m lolrange
Blazing Spear - they could make it so it scales of the higher stat like Burning light.
Blazing Shield - Make it scale of Stam/Mag like sorcerer *** shield.

Sunfire - too slow, easy to dodgeroll
Darkflare - too slow, easy to dodgeroll


all we would need for Dawns wrath is a passive like Kindling from DK but instead of inc fire dmg lets inc magic dmg.

Prism is the same as DK's Ulti gain passive. Apparently ZOS hates Ulti gain now. Illuminate is great, it boosts you and your allies' spell damage by 5% plus there's equivalent passives for other minor buffs in other classes.

I mentioned increasing Radial Sweep's radius so I definitely agree with you there. I don't think Blazing Spear needs to scale off stamina if it's higher, there's plenty of good stamina AoE DPS options (Steel Tornado blows most magicka AoEs out of the water). I'm fine with Blazing Shield scaling off health personally, someone mentioned Radiant Ward could scale off magicka and I'd be fine with that too.

ZOS mentioned Sun Fire should be getting a speed buff. Solar Flare isn't really useable in PvP IMO outside of a 1vX situation where you are part of the X, it's far too easy to interrupt and unlike Puncturing Strikes or Radiant Destruction you gain absolutely nothing if it gets interrupted. I just want to see it become viable for PvE DPS.

Magicka temp for PvE already has good damage, could be better if we had not so bullcrap dawns wrath passives but here 2 pretty good builds:

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/aedrics-warrior-magicka-build-templar-dd/
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-lightbringer/

ThatHappyCat

timidobserver wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nothing I said is in terms of PvP. I am talking purely about PVE. Darkflare is horrible for PVE in general. Mediocre dps and limited mobility. You are going to underperform in Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA if you use Darkflare as your primary dps, which means that you are going to fail at the highest endgame content currently in the game.

Which goes back to what I said before, if the numbers were actually correct it should be perfectly fine DPS. The numbers I mentioned (~1.1k non-crit, ~1.7k crit, 42% crit chance) is against trial bosses, on a 1.1s cooldown that should equate to an average DPS of ~1.35k, which is pretty good. But it isn't, which means the time between casts must be longer than 1.1s.

The limited mobility is no problem as I mentioned. Against the Mantikora you basically stand still for the popcorn phases unless a popcorn spawns on you, which shouldn't be too common an occurence; and during the portal phase you have plenty of time to stand still and DPS between spears. Against the Serpent it's even easier as unless you're on the Lamia group you won't be moving at all except to grab pink bubbles.

The numbers are correct when you take boss mitigations into consideration. The cast time just doesn't tell you the whole story. It takes 1.1 seconds to cast and then another 1-3 seconds to impact depending on how far away you are and lag.

Correct, it would cause you the most trouble against the Mantikora. However, you probably don't want to be using something with a cast time for your dps against Ra Kotu(Hel Ra), Yokeda Kai(Hel Ra), Whispmother(AA), Stonebreaker(SO), the Warrior(Hel Ra), boss 3,4,5 of vet COA, or anywhere in Vet DSA. Sure, you can force it to work on those bosses if you are a masochist and like doing things the hard way, but you'd end up having better dps and an easier time in general by using other skills for dps. IMO, it would only be worth it if you gained more dps for the trouble of using it(Like wrecking blow.)

Considering you can start casting the next Flare right after the previous one is released, and not after the previous one hits, projectile travel time means absolutely nothing...

I'd be perfectly happy using Solar Flare for most of the bosses you mentioned. Ra Kotu is the only one that jumps out at me (because of tornadoes chasing people), the rest mostly have AoEs that you can walk or dodge out of which you can do perfectly fine while casting Solar Flare (dodging ends the cast immediately, you're not trapped or anything). As I already mentioned it is a slight DPS loss compared to weaving but in most cases isn't all that significant, and while it is a bit more troublesome than weaving it has advantages too (very economical magicka expenditure, and Major Defile for bosses that can heal).

(Oh and no repetitive strain injury to your index finger).

I was going to do a huge response, but it isn't worth it. I can't imagine how anyone that regularly obtains top scores/times in trials, hard mode trials, and vet dsa could possibly think that Dark Flare is viable or even nearly worth using for dps. You work harder to get less dps, but it isn't worth debating for 3 pages so I am done lol.

Given that my argument isn't "it's fine DPS currently as it is", you don't really have a point. My point is it should be fine for DPS if it actually worked, which it obviously doesn't, which means I don't think it's fine DPS, which means I don't use it for DPS except when testing it. Hope that's cleared things up for you.

And really, given how many mistakes you made in this discussion (thinking the numbers aren't good in theory; thinking projectile travel time makes any difference in PvE; thinking that cast time is a problem in difficult boss fights: Serpent, the most difficult, requires almost no movement as a DPS, and it isn't a problem against Hiath either)... well, I think they speak for themselves.

danno8

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nothing I said is in terms of PvP. I am talking purely about PVE. Darkflare is horrible for PVE in general. Mediocre dps and limited mobility. You are going to underperform in Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA if you use Darkflare as your primary dps, which means that you are going to fail at the highest endgame content currently in the game.

Which goes back to what I said before, if the numbers were actually correct it should be perfectly fine DPS. The numbers I mentioned (~1.1k non-crit, ~1.7k crit, 42% crit chance) is against trial bosses, on a 1.1s cooldown that should equate to an average DPS of ~1.35k, which is pretty good. But it isn't, which means the time between casts must be longer than 1.1s.

The limited mobility is no problem as I mentioned. Against the Mantikora you basically stand still for the popcorn phases unless a popcorn spawns on you, which shouldn't be too common an occurence; and during the portal phase you have plenty of time to stand still and DPS between spears. Against the Serpent it's even easier as unless you're on the Lamia group you won't be moving at all except to grab pink bubbles.

The numbers are correct when you take boss mitigations into consideration. The cast time just doesn't tell you the whole story. It takes 1.1 seconds to cast and then another 1-3 seconds to impact depending on how far away you are and lag.

Correct, it would cause you the most trouble against the Mantikora. However, you probably don't want to be using something with a cast time for your dps against Ra Kotu(Hel Ra), Yokeda Kai(Hel Ra), Whispmother(AA), Stonebreaker(SO), the Warrior(Hel Ra), boss 3,4,5 of vet COA, or anywhere in Vet DSA. Sure, you can force it to work on those bosses if you are a masochist and like doing things the hard way, but you'd end up having better dps and an easier time in general by using other skills for dps. IMO, it would only be worth it if you gained more dps for the trouble of using it(Like wrecking blow.)

Considering you can start casting the next Flare right after the previous one is released, and not after the previous one hits, projectile travel time means absolutely nothing...

I'd be perfectly happy using Solar Flare for most of the bosses you mentioned. Ra Kotu is the only one that jumps out at me (because of tornadoes chasing people), the rest mostly have AoEs that you can walk or dodge out of which you can do perfectly fine while casting Solar Flare (dodging ends the cast immediately, you're not trapped or anything). As I already mentioned it is a slight DPS loss compared to weaving but in most cases isn't all that significant, and while it is a bit more troublesome than weaving it has advantages too (very economical magicka expenditure, and Major Defile for bosses that can heal).

(Oh and no repetitive strain injury to your index finger).

ZoS considers the cast time to be correct, from beginning of cast to when the projectile leaves your fingers. But there is a delay in animation from when you can recast. That is why doing the math will never line up with the practical experience.

ThatHappyCat

danno816_ESO wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nothing I said is in terms of PvP. I am talking purely about PVE. Darkflare is horrible for PVE in general. Mediocre dps and limited mobility. You are going to underperform in Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA if you use Darkflare as your primary dps, which means that you are going to fail at the highest endgame content currently in the game.

Which goes back to what I said before, if the numbers were actually correct it should be perfectly fine DPS. The numbers I mentioned (~1.1k non-crit, ~1.7k crit, 42% crit chance) is against trial bosses, on a 1.1s cooldown that should equate to an average DPS of ~1.35k, which is pretty good. But it isn't, which means the time between casts must be longer than 1.1s.

The limited mobility is no problem as I mentioned. Against the Mantikora you basically stand still for the popcorn phases unless a popcorn spawns on you, which shouldn't be too common an occurence; and during the portal phase you have plenty of time to stand still and DPS between spears. Against the Serpent it's even easier as unless you're on the Lamia group you won't be moving at all except to grab pink bubbles.

The numbers are correct when you take boss mitigations into consideration. The cast time just doesn't tell you the whole story. It takes 1.1 seconds to cast and then another 1-3 seconds to impact depending on how far away you are and lag.

Correct, it would cause you the most trouble against the Mantikora. However, you probably don't want to be using something with a cast time for your dps against Ra Kotu(Hel Ra), Yokeda Kai(Hel Ra), Whispmother(AA), Stonebreaker(SO), the Warrior(Hel Ra), boss 3,4,5 of vet COA, or anywhere in Vet DSA. Sure, you can force it to work on those bosses if you are a masochist and like doing things the hard way, but you'd end up having better dps and an easier time in general by using other skills for dps. IMO, it would only be worth it if you gained more dps for the trouble of using it(Like wrecking blow.)

Considering you can start casting the next Flare right after the previous one is released, and not after the previous one hits, projectile travel time means absolutely nothing...

I'd be perfectly happy using Solar Flare for most of the bosses you mentioned. Ra Kotu is the only one that jumps out at me (because of tornadoes chasing people), the rest mostly have AoEs that you can walk or dodge out of which you can do perfectly fine while casting Solar Flare (dodging ends the cast immediately, you're not trapped or anything). As I already mentioned it is a slight DPS loss compared to weaving but in most cases isn't all that significant, and while it is a bit more troublesome than weaving it has advantages too (very economical magicka expenditure, and Major Defile for bosses that can heal).

(Oh and no repetitive strain injury to your index finger).

ZoS considers the cast time to be correct, from beginning of cast to when the projectile leaves your fingers. But there is a delay in animation from when you can recast. That is why doing the math will never line up with the practical experience.

Yeah I know there's an aftercast of some sort, that's why I'm hoping ZOS will look into it. If they balance around the assumption that it actually casts every 1.1 seconds then they may have to eliminate the weird extra time or reduce the cast time further.

Renaissance

Lol . I think u wish that we start talking about nerfed DK skills , how they should CC(engufling would be nice AoE stun), from what scale (obsidian shield for example), why than not stun blockcasting targets (deepbreath) or spamming casters (templars with jabs) ?

tplink3r1

Renaissance wrote: »

Lol . I think u wish that we start talking about nerfed DK skills , how they should CC(engufling would be nice AoE stun), from what scale (obsidian shield for example), why than not stun blockcasting targets (deepbreath) or spamming casters (templars with jabs) ?

You are getting killed by jabs in PvP? L2P.

Anhedonie

Disagree on allmost everything except for rite of passage and shards. They really need some tweaking.