How to balance NBs

ToRelax

NBs are clearly the most dominate class in PvP. Wether you judge off playing the game, popular opinion, leaderboards, etc; their dominance is indisputable and this post is not here to debate about it. This post is in regards to reasonable way to tone down the class while keeping them viable.

The biggest thing that feels different when I play a NBiis that they don't really have a main weakness. Other classes seem to be missing something (Templar is missing some CC, DKs missing an escape skill, Sorc missing stamina management/support skills etc). NBs have great Offense with things like Swallow Soul, Veiled Strike, Crippling Grasp. Great defense with Cloak and Shadow Image. And great mobility with Shadow Image. There class abilities also synergies with each other really well with things Cloak+Veiled Strike.

One of the major balancing points of any game is to make sure a character or class cannot perform all 3 of these aspects at once. Take League of Legends for example. If a character is mobile, then it's is penalized with lower HP and defenses. Likewise, if a character is has a lot of offense/defense, then it typically isn't mobile. Every other class in this game follows this rule too:

DK:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Yes: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
No: No?

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence


Do you see the problem? No other class has anything close to what NBs have in mobility, yet NBs are not penalized in any kind of way for it. Stealth is way too strong and Cloak can be spammed way too much without soft caps. This is why 1.6 benefitted NBs so much. Every other class has to balance out either stamina or magika with health, but cloak alone make health irrelevant for NB. You can keep stacking magika and gain more offense, defense, and mobility. Either cloak or shadow image need to go completely, or they both need to be toned down. Considering SI is unique to NBs it makes sense to leave that be, meaning the best course of action would be to adjust cloak. My top changes Zenimax could make to tone down NBs are as follows:

1. Make cloak duration scale off health.
2. Add a small cast time to cloak so it can't be spammed as easily and there is counterplay to it (interrupting)
3. Add increasing mana cost per cloak if cast within x amount of seconds (think Kassadin)

Thoughts?

PS: That other thread for reference, one of the nerf sorc ones

PPS: Sarcasm detector is broken again

PPPS: To make that clear, this thread is supposed for the people with common sense, to find a reasonable way to tone down NBs. You can't seriously argue wether NBs are OP or not anymore, there are sooo many qq threads.

Edit: didn't replaced class in some instances, fixed now

ToRelax

Oh ***, I wanted to make it as "nerf templar" thread at first, but they are sooo bad, I just didnt find anything to fill the gaps.
So yeah, wrong title .

Ah I found the option to change title, so nvm .

Cinnamon_Spider

I killed a vet 1 NB on my level 19 templar in a 1v1 twice last night. Nerf templar/buff NB?

Chikenuget

Swallow Soul, veiled strike, and crippling grasp are some of the weakest abilities in the game.

Swallow Soul is a DoT that can be blocked, the heal is dependent on the damage done. (Returns can be very insignificant)

Veiled strike does not crit through stealth, and does not do a lot of damage. (average 4-7k with magicka, 3-5k stamina)

Crippling grasp is not much different than shards besides doing less damage....


I'm not really sure you thought your post through at all... You mention sorcs have mobility + damage and then say no class comes close to NB in those terms.

Also sorcs have no defense? Sorcs are considerably hard to kill with some ward stacking, BoL, and Storm.

Sorry stamina management is not a part of class discussion, that would be stamina vs magicka. Likewise you are acting like an NB can spam cloak, only a magicka based build can do that. Even then, the counters to cloak are heavy (Detect pots last for very long and have high detection ranges while also allowing your teammates to see others as well, mark target doesnt always purge on the first try and lasts some 27-30s) and cloak along with its bugs has long been considered an underpowered escape.


Shadow image is not necessarily "great mobility" either. It has to be used with skill and rewards properly. (ie using terrain to prevent LoS after a swap, kiting your opponent away from the shadow, timing and casting etc)



To put perspective on my post I believe templars are underpowered and regen needs soft caps.

ToRelax

Chikenuget wrote: »

Swallow Soul, veiled strike, and crippling grasp are some of the weakest abilities in the game.

Swallow Soul is a DoT that can be blocked, the heal is dependent on the damage done. (Returns can be very insignificant)

Veiled strike does not crit through stealth, and does not do a lot of damage. (average 4-7k with magicka, 3-5k stamina)

Crippling grasp is not much different than shards besides doing less damage....


I'm not really sure you thought your post through at all... You mention sorcs have mobility + damage and then say no class comes close to NB in those terms.

Also sorcs have no defense? Sorcs are considerably hard to kill with some ward stacking, BoL, and Storm.

Sorry stamina management is not a part of class discussion, that would be stamina vs magicka. Likewise you are acting like an NB can spam cloak, only a magicka based build can do that. Even then, the counters to cloak are heavy (Detect pots last for very long and have high detection ranges while also allowing your teammates to see others as well, mark target doesnt always purge on the first try and lasts some 27-30s) and cloak along with its bugs has long been considered an underpowered escape.


Shadow image is not necessarily "great mobility" either. It has to be used with skill and rewards properly. (ie using terrain to prevent LoS after a swap, kiting your opponent away from the shadow, timing and casting etc)



To put perspective on my post I believe templars are underpowered and regen needs soft caps.

I did indeed make false claims about Sorcs here in the first place, I fixed that now and claim the same things about NBs!
Also, this thread is not to argue about wether NBs are OP but what we can do about it!

But thank you, this is exactly the kind of post i was waiting for!

Teargrants

Now we need a thread about how to balance forum warriors.

Chikenuget

Sorry I forgot about the stam and magicka morphs, concealed and veiled will do 4-7k depending on magicka /stam

Bouvin

ToRelax wrote: »

NBs are clearly the most dominate class in PvP. Wether you judge off playing the game, popular opinion, leaderboards, etc; their dominance is indisputable and this post is not here to debate about it. This post is in regards to reasonable way to tone down the class while keeping them viable.

The biggest thing that feels different when I play a NBiis that they don't really have a main weakness. Other classes seem to be missing something (Templar is missing some CC, DKs missing an escape skill, Sorc missing stamina management/support skills etc). NBs have great Offense with things like Swallow Soul, Veiled Strike, Crippling Grasp. Great defense with Cloak and Shadow Image. And great mobility with Shadow Image. There class abilities also synergies with each other really well with things Cloak+Veiled Strike.

One of the major balancing points of any game is to make sure a character or class cannot perform all 3 of these aspects at once. Take League of Legends for example. If a character is mobile, then it's is penalized with lower HP and defenses. Likewise, if a character is has a lot of offense/defense, then it typically isn't mobile. Every other class in this game follows this rule too:

DK:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Yes: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
No: No?

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence


Do you see the problem? No other class has anything close to what NBs have in mobility, yet NBs are not penalized in any kind of way for it. Stealth is way too strong and Cloak can be spammed way too much without soft caps. This is why 1.6 benefitted NBs so much. Every other class has to balance out either stamina or magika with health, but cloak alone make health irrelevant for NB. You can keep stacking magika and gain more offense, defense, and mobility. Either cloak or shadow image need to go completely, or they both need to be toned down. Considering SI is unique to NBs it makes sense to leave that be, meaning the best course of action would be to adjust cloak. My top changes Zenimax could make to tone down NBs are as follows:

1. Make cloak duration scale off health.
2. Add a small cast time to cloak so it can't be spammed as easily and there is counterplay to it (interrupting)
3. Add increasing mana cost per cloak if cast within x amount of seconds (think Kassadin)

Thoughts?

PS: That other thread for reference, one of the nerf sorc ones

PPS: Sarcasm detector is broken again

PPPS: To make that clear, this thread is supposed for the people with common sense, to find a reasonable way to tone down NBs. You can't seriously argue wether NBs are OP or not anymore, there are sooo many qq threads.

Edit: didn't replaced class in some instances, fixed now

This is hilarious coming from a Sorc player as Sorc is also dominating PvP right now.

TheBull

What I can't figure out is why NBs are worth so little AP

Draehl

ToRelax wrote: »

NBs have great Offense with things like Swallow Soul, Concealed Weapon, Crippling Grasp

Aaaand you don't have a damned clue what you're talking about. It seems to me you got dropped by a stamina NB and decided to go to a build calculator and pull some random skills that sounded strong simply to make a point. Magicka NB is mediocre at best right now and the only build making any real progress is sypher's Destro Staff build that is largely successful simply due to the combination of Destro Staff + Shadow Cloak + Picking his battles well. Concealed weapon helps for the stun, but is largely redundant. Hint: Swallow Soul/Funnel Health hit like a wet noodle and Crippling Grasp isn't much better. The main use for this skill is the immobilize/speed boost.

If you're going to cry on the forums at least do a little homework about what you're crying about, my god. Stamina NB is broken but you're complaining about skills that have little/nothing to do with it's success.

Xsorus

i don't consider shadow image to be mobility. It's a great ability and all, but I don't know if I'd compare it to
Things like bolt escape

Pirhana7_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

NBs are clearly the most dominate class in PvP. Wether you judge off playing the game, popular opinion, leaderboards, etc; their dominance is indisputable and this post is not here to debate about it. This post is in regards to reasonable way to tone down the class while keeping them viable.

The biggest thing that feels different when I play a NBiis that they don't really have a main weakness. Other classes seem to be missing something (Templar is missing some CC, DKs missing an escape skill, Sorc missing stamina management/support skills etc). NBs have great Offense with things like Swallow Soul, Veiled Strike, Crippling Grasp. Great defense with Cloak and Shadow Image. And great mobility with Shadow Image. There class abilities also synergies with each other really well with things Cloak+Veiled Strike.

One of the major balancing points of any game is to make sure a character or class cannot perform all 3 of these aspects at once. Take League of Legends for example. If a character is mobile, then it's is penalized with lower HP and defenses. Likewise, if a character is has a lot of offense/defense, then it typically isn't mobile. Every other class in this game follows this rule too:

DK:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Yes: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
No: No?

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence


Do you see the problem? No other class has anything close to what NBs have in mobility, yet NBs are not penalized in any kind of way for it. Stealth is way too strong and Cloak can be spammed way too much without soft caps. This is why 1.6 benefitted NBs so much. Every other class has to balance out either stamina or magika with health, but cloak alone make health irrelevant for NB. You can keep stacking magika and gain more offense, defense, and mobility. Either cloak or shadow image need to go completely, or they both need to be toned down. Considering SI is unique to NBs it makes sense to leave that be, meaning the best course of action would be to adjust cloak. My top changes Zenimax could make to tone down NBs are as follows:

1. Make cloak duration scale off health.
2. Add a small cast time to cloak so it can't be spammed as easily and there is counterplay to it (interrupting)
3. Add increasing mana cost per cloak if cast within x amount of seconds (think Kassadin)

Thoughts?

PS: That other thread for reference, one of the nerf sorc ones

PPS: Sarcasm detector is broken again

PPPS: To make that clear, this thread is supposed for the people with common sense, to find a reasonable way to tone down NBs. You can't seriously argue wether NBs are OP or not anymore, there are sooo many qq threads.

Edit: didn't replaced class in some instances, fixed now

The thing i find funny is that you have Sorcs with "No" defence when they actually have the strongest defense out of all 4 classes. With their high magila build that puts their damage shield threw the roof and teh ability to always instantly throw it up they currently can take more damage than any other class, and that goes with their high dps and best mobility in teh game.

Sorc is hands down the strongest class right now, DK is second, NB 3rd and Temp a close 4th.

Cody

NBs are missing a class based self heal and class based damage shield.... your ignorance of that topic alone makes me want to stop reading at that very spot and move on, but I will be fair and read the rest; perhaps you will make some sort of point, we will see.

Cody

sorcs have twice the mobility NBs do. AKA bolt escape.

Cody

if you up the mana cost for cloak, then i will not be able to use cloak for my stamina NB. I can barely use it for my stamina NB now.

it lasts 2.5 seconds and can be broken by things such as flares, magelight, the 41 second duration 20-30 meter radius detection potions, and other things i have not mentioned.

make cloak scale off of health?? why?? in that case, I want all damage shields scaling off of health, and all roll dodges scaling off of health. in fact. lets make blocks scale off of health as well. ALL defensive techniques will now scale off of health. balance must be attained, as close to it as we can get. you nerf one defensive play style, you must nerf the rest down to equality. what you do to one side, you do to the other.

same with your "make cloak interruptable" idea. if that happens, I want all templar heals(excluding the ultimate, ill be lenient there) interruptable, I want dragon bllood interruptable, and i want bolt escape interruptable. you want to gut my escape/survivability? then do so for everyone else, keep the balance.

NBs have no reliable class based self heals or damage shields, our defense IS our 2.5 second duration easily breakable cloak, and our stealth(btw, every other class can sneak just as well as a NB, NBs just have better openers and sneak damage and a cloak that can be copied by a potion)

and how is shadow image OP?

Chikenuget

ToRelax wrote: »

I did indeed make false claims about Sorcs here in the first place, I fixed that now and claim the same things about NBs!
Also, this thread is not to argue about wether NBs are OP but what we can do about it!

But thank you, this is exactly the kind of post i was waiting for!

So you're not going to refute any of my points? I'm countering yours and I suppose you are accepting them.

@Draehl Has a point, it sounds like you only understand your class and essentially this is a "L2P" matter.

Cody

So what I have read is a post by someone who has no idea what they are talking about. you claim NBs are OP, yet the only evidence you have provided is false claims, exaggerations taking the actual effectiveness of cloak WAY out of turn, and claiming other classes do not have things that they, in fact, do have(sorcs for example, which I have already discussed in a previous comment) I will admit, I am biased, as my mains have all been NBs since beta, but I did read your post thru, and your post is filled with illogical banter and lies trying to pass themselves off as truths.

you just took the common misconceptions about NBs, put them in a "nerf X class" thread, and attempted to put it in your own words and convince everyone of the NBs "OPness".

your post is unoriginal, it is a copy and paste version of all the complaining done about NBs nowadays, and your proposed solutions would utterly destroy the NBs survivalbility and mobility, and make the class as worthless as it was the first few months of the game.

Next time, do some actual research and come up with something that is NOT a copy and paste of what has already been preached for the past month.

i know I was harsh here, normally I am not, but I cannot stand it when someone has absolutely no idea what they are talking about, and tries to act like everyone else who thinks differently is utterly wrong.

research the class, play it, do SOMETHING to get the knowledge you need for a post like this. If you do so, I will read it with an open mind.

until then everything you post about NBs being OP is not worth reading.

akray21

ToRelax wrote: »

NBs are clearly the most dominate class in PvP. Wether you judge off playing the game, popular opinion, leaderboards, etc; their dominance is indisputable and this post is not here to debate about it. This post is in regards to reasonable way to tone down the class while keeping them viable.

The biggest thing that feels different when I play a NBiis that they don't really have a main weakness. Other classes seem to be missing something (Templar is missing some CC, DKs missing an escape skill, Sorc missing stamina management/support skills etc). NBs have great Offense with things like Swallow Soul, Veiled Strike, Crippling Grasp. Great defense with Cloak and Shadow Image. And great mobility with Shadow Image. There class abilities also synergies with each other really well with things Cloak+Veiled Strike.

One of the major balancing points of any game is to make sure a character or class cannot perform all 3 of these aspects at once. Take League of Legends for example. If a character is mobile, then it's is penalized with lower HP and defenses. Likewise, if a character is has a lot of offense/defense, then it typically isn't mobile. Every other class in this game follows this rule too:

DK:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Yes: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
No: No?

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence


Do you see the problem? No other class has anything close to what NBs have in mobility, yet NBs are not penalized in any kind of way for it. Stealth is way too strong and Cloak can be spammed way too much without soft caps. This is why 1.6 benefitted NBs so much. Every other class has to balance out either stamina or magika with health, but cloak alone make health irrelevant for NB. You can keep stacking magika and gain more offense, defense, and mobility. Either cloak or shadow image need to go completely, or they both need to be toned down. Considering SI is unique to NBs it makes sense to leave that be, meaning the best course of action would be to adjust cloak. My top changes Zenimax could make to tone down NBs are as follows:

1. Make cloak duration scale off health.
2. Add a small cast time to cloak so it can't be spammed as easily and there is counterplay to it (interrupting)
3. Add increasing mana cost per cloak if cast within x amount of seconds (think Kassadin)

Thoughts?

PS: That other thread for reference, one of the nerf sorc ones

PPS: Sarcasm detector is broken again

PPPS: To make that clear, this thread is supposed for the people with common sense, to find a reasonable way to tone down NBs. You can't seriously argue wether NBs are OP or not anymore, there are sooo many qq threads.

Edit: didn't replaced class in some instances, fixed now

You are OP nerf you!

TheBucket

Lol troll

Teargrants

So it seems lots of impulsive forum warriors missed that this was a parody thread. Here's a useful diagram to help explain.

jelliedsoup

I can't take this thread seriously. That is indisputable.

RoamingRiverElk

See the first post here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165541/how-to-balance-sorcs/p1

Navaya

NBs are not the strongest class in pvp, Sorcs are the number 1 atm hands down. DKs come in second.

Soris

ToRelax wrote: »

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence

Lol no. You did quite good with the rest of your post and I agree nightblades are lack of trade-offs for being such good.
But this quote above is big fail. Shield stacking is best defence in game after roll dodge

ToRelax

Wow. I didn't expect THAT ^^.
At least you see the first post was not very constructive after all, right? At least I hope so...

So, after reading all the comments...

Cody wrote: »

if you up the mana cost for cloak, then i will not be able to use cloak for my stamina NB. I can barely use it for my stamina NB now.

it lasts 2.5 seconds and can be broken by things such as flares, magelight, the 41 second duration 20-30 meter radius detection potions, and other things i have not mentioned.

make cloak scale off of health?? why?? in that case, I want all damage shields scaling off of health, and all roll dodges scaling off of health. in fact. lets make blocks scale off of health as well. ALL defensive techniques will now scale off of health. balance must be attained, as close to it as we can get. you nerf one defensive play style, you must nerf the rest down to equality. what you do to one side, you do to the other.

same with your "make cloak interruptable" idea. if that happens, I want all templar heals(excluding the ultimate, ill be lenient there) interruptable, I want dragon bllood interruptable, and i want bolt escape interruptable. you want to gut my escape/survivability? then do so for everyone else, keep the balance.

NBs have no reliable class based self heals or damage shields, our defense IS our 2.5 second duration easily breakable cloak, and our stealth(btw, every other class can sneak just as well as a NB, NBs just have better openers and sneak damage and a cloak that can be copied by a potion)

and how is shadow image OP?

^This one is my favourite. Just need to change back all the skills and we have an argument .

Cody wrote: »

[...]
your post is unoriginal, it is a copy and paste version of all the complaining done about NBs nowadays, and your proposed solutions would utterly destroy the NBs survivalbility and mobility, and make the class as worthless as it was the first few months of the game.

Next time, do some actual research and come up with something that is NOT a copy and paste of what has already been preached for the past month.

[...]

You are SO close, man... >_>

Soris wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence

Lol no. You did quite good with the rest of your post and I agree nightblades are lack of trade-offs for being such good.
But this quote above is big fail. Shield stacking is best defence in game after roll dodge

IKR, but what else to say, I couldn't possibly claim Sorcs had some kind of defense, the other guy didn't claim that about NBs either .

Wreuntzylla

One troll. So many trolled.

Soulac

*grabs milk *

Seth_Black

ToRelax wrote: »

DK:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Yes: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
No: No?

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence

Sorc - no def ...LOL'd
Have you seen all other posts on forum claiming sorc is most def OP class in the game?

DK & Templar - they DON'T NEED mobility! They can stand in one place and just take the damage.
If you lack skills to play you will die - OBVIOUSLY.

NB - requires really mastering some moves & combos to play it right in PvP.
It's not that easy as you may think

As conclusion: with countless possibilities of gear/skills mixture and level of player's skill there's NO WAY to balance anything more than it already is. Game is NOT broken
There's no such thing as OP class. One claims sorc is OP (he gets killed by them a lot) another will say NB is OP (he gets ganked a lot), and some DK will say everything other than DK is OP ...just bcs he sucks in PvP totallly
People in ZoS are QUALIFIED to asses balancing way more than majority of the players ...and they get PAID to do it
...so from my point of view they're doing best they possibly can to give us great tools to develop our own unique characters in a way we will enjoy them
...just think about it

'If game evolves in right direction, get on that train and enjoy the trip. Complaining all the way will make you miss the view'
~Someone Smart

Tankqull

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

i don't consider shadow image to be mobility. It's a great ability and all, but I don't know if I'd compare it to
Things like bolt escape

well it does not respect los, gets you out of any charge range(28m porting range for the win instead of 15 ) if used properly and gives you 100% escapability if synergized with cloak and double take.

but the only thing in need to be brought down is the nb stamina reg values wich does not force them to make decisions.

ToRelax

Seth_Black wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DK:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Yes: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
No: No?

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence

Sorc - no def ...LOL'd
Have you seen all other posts on forum claiming sorc is most def OP class in the game?

DK & Templar - they DON'T NEED mobility! They can stand in one place and just take the damage.
If you lack skills to play you will die - OBVIOUSLY.

NB - requires really mastering some moves & combos to play it right in PvP.
It's not that easy as you may think

As conclusion: with countless possibilities of gear/skills mixture and level of player's skill there's NO WAY to balance anything more than it already is. Game is NOT broken
There's no such thing as OP class. One claims sorc is OP (he gets killed by them a lot) another will say NB is OP (he gets ganked a lot), and some DK will say everything other than DK is OP ...just bcs he sucks in PvP totallly
People in ZoS are QUALIFIED to asses balancing way more than majority of the players ...and they get PAID to do it
...so from my point of view they're doing best they possibly can to give us great tools to develop our own unique characters in a way we will enjoy them
...just think about it

'If game evolves in right direction, get on that train and enjoy the trip. Complaining all the way will make you miss the view'
~Someone Smart

That list of *mine* is pretty smallminded imo - it just doesn't nearly cover all the important things, it does not let different kinds of defense exist, and it ignores all possible ways for a player to complement his playstyle with non class abilities.

Seth_Black

That list of *mine* is pretty smallminded imo - it just doesn't nearly cover all the important things, it does not let different kinds of defense exist, and it ignores all possible ways for a player to complement his playstyle with non class abilities.

I can play ANY race and any class ...and develop ways to make it good, even deadly.
Every class skill line, weapon skill line and armor skill line contains something you can use to avoid/reduce/outheal damage.
There's simply no way to stop anyone from making his character powerful (if he's smart enough).