Are you ever gonna bother balancing races?

Vandril

Feidam wrote: »

I like the current racial system with one caveat. Each race should have one main stat racial and one regen racial.

Actually, I'd argue that no races should have attribute or regen bonuses. At all.

I like the idea of racials that give flavor or are more interesting than just "u has moar stam!"

Things like the fire damage from Dunmer, the potion bonus from Argonian, and the Sneak Attack damage multiplier bonus from Bosmer... Those are the types of things I'd like to see more of for racial skills, instead of attribute bonuses altogether.

pecheckler

I made an imperial templar long ago to tank. After hitting VR7 I realized that I can never tank as efficiently as a dragon knight, so I want to go full light armor/staff build. Unfortunately I'm an imperial, so i'm not effective enough.

I shouldn't be forced to re-roll to play on-par with other race templars.


ZOS should sell us race changes in crown store to compensate for the poor design. I'd rather drop $20 on a race change then deal with re-rolling another race templar.

Fizzlewizzle

pecheckler wrote: »

I made an imperial templar long ago to tank. After hitting VR7 I realized that I can never tank as efficiently as a dragon knight, so I want to go full light armor/staff build. Unfortunately I'm an imperial, so i'm not effective enough.

I shouldn't be forced to re-roll to play on-par with other race templars.


ZOS should sell us race changes in crown store to compensate for the poor design. I'd rather drop $20 on a race change then deal with re-rolling another race templar.

You picking the wrong race has nothing to do with poor design. The Imperial is the best choice for a Tank, Templar or otherwise. You could drop the Staff and go for a melee build, which would work pretty good with a Imperial.

This whole topic is about having races that are far inferior passives compared to other races.
That you picked the wrong race for your type of build is your own problem. There are races out there that have nothing for any type of build (Argonians for example). Those things need addressing, and something like a Race change isn't an option for that. With that you only evade the problem, not deal with it.

Locke_ESO

They should just do a proper review of racial passives before they get into offering race changes etc. It wasn't too bad before because of the limitations on cap stats but with the removal of soft caps in 1.6 it's become way too beneficial to pick certain races types/builds. I'd seriously have to think hard about not changing to an Altmer on my Sorcerer if they added a race swap option. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with racial bonuses being more homogenized if it meant more diverse racial choices being made.

Soulac

Beeing Imperial instead of Khajiit is like having additional bufffood while I got 6% crit and some crappy sneak dmg buff.
Give Khajiit 10% Stamina Buff, Crit, Health Reg

Xsorus

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

I made an imperial templar long ago to tank. After hitting VR7 I realized that I can never tank as efficiently as a dragon knight, so I want to go full light armor/staff build. Unfortunately I'm an imperial, so i'm not effective enough.

I shouldn't be forced to re-roll to play on-par with other race templars.


ZOS should sell us race changes in crown store to compensate for the poor design. I'd rather drop $20 on a race change then deal with re-rolling another race templar.

You picking the wrong race has nothing to do with poor design. The Imperial is the best choice for a Tank, Templar or otherwise. You could drop the Staff and go for a melee build, which would work pretty good with a Imperial.

This whole topic is about having races that are far inferior passives compared to other races.
That you picked the wrong race for your type of build is your own problem. There are races out there that have nothing for any type of build (Argonians for example). Those things need addressing, and something like a Race change isn't an option for that. With that you only evade the problem, not deal with it.

I didn't pick the wrong race for my Nightblade (Argonian) i picked the race I wanted...because it synergized with my class....Then ZOS came along and just completely removed that.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

@Crescent Motto of the day: Just say NO to uniformity.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I didn't pick the wrong race for my Nightblade (Argonian) i picked the race I wanted...because it synergized with my class....Then ZOS came along and just completely removed that.

Well no, they didn't completely remove it, I wouldn't disagree that they change they made was unreasonable and completely not needed but I'd hardly say they completely nerfed the Argonian racials to the point of 'removing' them.

jonathanonmarsnrb18_ESO

Check out my forum post
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160642/implementation-of-a-system-to-change-races-in-after-character-creation#latest

I think it's important that they allow players to change between races given that some races may be more suited to the build that they want to make, especially since ZOS is constantly changing the meta of races and various builds.

timothynrwb17_ESO

I really don't feel the races need to be balanced. You make the choice with full knowledge of what is available. Ultimately race is a flavour choice. If you want to min/max pick an optimal race for what you're min/maxing for. Otherwise all races can do all the content adequately.

I personally don't like games where everything is metrically balanced. I play as an Argonian btw. It's not as good as the others but I'm not min/maxing. And it has its perks.

The older the game gets the more I'd like to see a race change facility so that you can adapt with changing gaming priorities. Though I don't think it should be available until at least level 50.

Fizzlewizzle

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

I made an imperial templar long ago to tank. After hitting VR7 I realized that I can never tank as efficiently as a dragon knight, so I want to go full light armor/staff build. Unfortunately I'm an imperial, so i'm not effective enough.

I shouldn't be forced to re-roll to play on-par with other race templars.


ZOS should sell us race changes in crown store to compensate for the poor design. I'd rather drop $20 on a race change then deal with re-rolling another race templar.

You picking the wrong race has nothing to do with poor design. The Imperial is the best choice for a Tank, Templar or otherwise. You could drop the Staff and go for a melee build, which would work pretty good with a Imperial.

This whole topic is about having races that are far inferior passives compared to other races.
That you picked the wrong race for your type of build is your own problem. There are races out there that have nothing for any type of build (Argonians for example). Those things need addressing, and something like a Race change isn't an option for that. With that you only evade the problem, not deal with it.

I didn't pick the wrong race for my Nightblade (Argonian) i picked the race I wanted...because it synergized with my class....Then ZOS came along and just completely removed that.

That post was never meant for you, but for the guy that picked a race that didn't change yet still complaints because ZOS screwed him over.

Varicite

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

@Crescent Motto of the day: Just say NO to uniformity.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I didn't pick the wrong race for my Nightblade (Argonian) i picked the race I wanted...because it synergized with my class....Then ZOS came along and just completely removed that.

Well no, they didn't completely remove it, I wouldn't disagree that they change they made was unreasonable and completely not needed but I'd hardly say they completely nerfed the Argonian racials to the point of 'removing' them.

They completely nerfed potions themselves AND the Argonian racial to the point where they should have just removed it entirely.

You can't look at the Argonian racial change in a vacuum, because it was actually 3 separate nerfs. Potions cooldown raised by 50%. NB Catalyst passive changed entirely. Argonian racial changed drastically.

= Argonian racial pretty much worthless now.

It would be like them taking the Khajit Carnage passive, and then nerfing crit damage down to nothing, making crit chance irrelevant, and then giving everybody a free magelight. Sure, Carnage is still the same, but it wouldn't be worth rolling a kitty cat for anymore.

Varicite

timothynrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I really don't feel the races need to be balanced. You make the choice with full knowledge of what is available.

AT THE TIME. You make that choice w/ knowledge of what's available at the time.

There is absolutely nothing stopping ZOS from coming back a year later and completely gutting the reason you picked your race, and then walking away leaving you completely inferior to everyone else. Don't tell me they don't do things like that, because they just did.

If you don't want to min/max, that's totally fine. However, the endgame for ESO is leaderboards, timed trials, PvP leaderboards, etc. All of these activities are skewed toward min/maxers.

It's completely fine if you don't care about those things or ever want to be competitive, but you can't possibly be mad at players playing the game exactly the way that ZOS designed it, and that is to min/max.

I highly doubt that anyone minds that races are different and have their own flavor; I certainly don't. But they don't want that flavor to automatically put people at a disadvantage from day one. I'd say ~5% is probably an acceptable margin.

The problem is that we have a situation where there are "normal races", and then there are "good races" which are probably about 10% better than normal races due to a main stat bonus. And then there is the paid race, which is 10% above THAT, putting all of the "normal" races even further at a disadvantage.

And then you take that situation of unequal races and you put them in a scenario where they need to compete against one another for the best gear and most prestige, drawing further attention to the glaring differences in balance.

The races need to be looked at and rebalanced. No, they don't need to be the same, but the gap can't stay as wide as it is.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

However, the endgame for ESO is leaderboards, timed trials, PvP leaderboards, etc. All of these activities are skewed toward min/maxers.

That paints a hugely depressing picture of this game for many (most?) PVE players and many PVPers too I expect.

Deliverance

AssaultLemming wrote: »

I think they should do away with racial bonuses entirely and replace them with back story choices you make during character creation. Racial bonuses is an outdated concept and doesn't sit well with the whole play your way theme. I would see back story choices look something like this:

Racial bonuses are an integral part of the Elder Scrolls games and have been so since Arena back in 1994. You find them outdated, I find them the important to my Elder Scrolls experience and see no reason to get rid of them just because the series has now gone MMORPG.

As for it being an outdated concept, your suggestion of replacing them with back story choices has an even longer history in computer gaming, either simple one-step variants such as you suggest, or more complicated multi-step variants such as 1985's Ultima 4, which incidentally I consider a slightly more interesting approach than just handing out a bunch of points to the player and allowing him to allocate as he will as in modern point-buy systems.

Back story systems can also supplement racial bonuses well, as seen in e.g. ADOM, but replacing racial bonuses in a game universe where the the back story as well as 20 years worth of Elder Scrolls' games establish races as being distinctly better at some skills than others? No thanks.

Jar_Ek

The problem that distinctly better at some skills is not what ESO has done... it has made some races distinctly lacking in all skills.

Mumnoch

Don't balance the races! My Naz...errr Imperial race is superior for a reason right Zenimax? Hail Hit...err Zenimax! /wink

/sarcasm


I love games that support the superior race concept /sigh

Varicite

Mumnoch wrote: »

Don't balance the races! My Naz...errr Imperial race is superior for a reason right Zenimax? Hail Hit...err Zenimax! /wink

/sarcasm


I love games that support the superior race concept /sigh

I still think it's funny that they turned the crappy race that was good at Speechcraft into ESO's "master race".

Seriously? Imps were pretty much good for nothing outside of making cash and persuasion.

Bfish22090

I roll a khajiit sorcerer and slay kids in PVP

Fayaburn

Is there an official statement from ZOS somewhere about the racial balance? Or did they ignore all the threads up to now?

Varicite

Fayaburn wrote: »

Is there an official statement from ZOS somewhere about the racial balance? Or did they ignore all the threads up to now?

There was mention prior to 1.6 in one of the podcasts that they wanted to look at racials again in the future, but I believe that's all that's been said on the matter.

Jules

I have to agree. Races are profoundly unbalanced. I have a dunmer dk and an altmer sorc and they are both very powerful (the dk moreso bc... she's a dk). Had I rolled say an Orc dk and an argonian sorc (for the once upon a time pot build) - I would be in a very different place today. The classes with base stat % increases are amazing to play. So are the ones with dmg increases. In comparison, races like nord, argonian, orc, these people are extremely gimped in comparison. They will never be able to touch the dps numbers or the proficiency that the other races can and its unfair.

Jules

Oh, PS: idk much about the lore, this prob wouldn't work w that. But aside from that, someone said to me the other day that a game they played gave like 20-25 passives and people could choose their 3 or 4 that worked best with their build. You could test them out, and just like a respec, change them as you see fit. I thought that was a pretty awesome idea.

AssaultLemming

Deliverance wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

I think they should do away with racial bonuses entirely and replace them with back story choices you make during character creation. Racial bonuses is an outdated concept and doesn't sit well with the whole play your way theme. I would see back story choices look something like this:

Racial bonuses are an integral part of the Elder Scrolls games and have been so since Arena back in 1994. You find them outdated, I find them the important to my Elder Scrolls experience and see no reason to get rid of them just because the series has now gone MMORPG.

As for it being an outdated concept, your suggestion of replacing them with back story choices has an even longer history in computer gaming, either simple one-step variants such as you suggest, or more complicated multi-step variants such as 1985's Ultima 4, which incidentally I consider a slightly more interesting approach than just handing out a bunch of points to the player and allowing him to allocate as he will as in modern point-buy systems.

Back story systems can also supplement racial bonuses well, as seen in e.g. ADOM, but replacing racial bonuses in a game universe where the the back story as well as 20 years worth of Elder Scrolls' games establish races as being distinctly better at some skills than others? No thanks.

Sorry but I have to totally disagree with you. The fact that something has been done this way in other elder scrolls games is a very poor argument, we aren't playing those games, we are playing this one.

Basically racial passives result in a system where a race is always a best choice mathematically for a certain class or role, and this limits the players choice when creating that class.

It is a much better experience for the player if they can choose any race to play any class and select their passives based on their characters individual story. It creates diversity in the game.

If I want an argonian who traveled as a child to study under the altmer and comes from a rich merchant family then great, I now have an argonian with improved magicka and reduced npc gold costs.

Varicite wrote: »

If you don't want to min/max, that's totally fine. However, the endgame for ESO is leaderboards, timed trials, PvP leaderboards, etc. All of these activities are skewed toward min/maxers.

The problem is that we have a situation where there are "normal races", and then there are "good races" which are probably about 10% better than normal races due to a main stat bonus. And then there is the paid race, which is 10% above THAT, putting all of the "normal" races even further at a disadvantage.

And then you take that situation of unequal races and you put them in a scenario where they need to compete against one another for the best gear and most prestige, drawing further attention to the glaring differences in balance.

Varicite makes the excellent point here that eso end game is all about min max and competition, and that is the exact reason why racial passives don't work in a multi player game where they might have worked in single player games in the eso franchise.

If something is broken it needs to change, simply saying it's always been this way in elder scrolls is not a reason for us to put up with broken crap in this game.

Crescent

Feidam wrote: »

I like the current racial system with one caveat. Each race should have one main stat racial and one regen racial. The racial differences are a breath of fresh air from everything has to be perfectly equal. A not optimal race still has the ability to complete all content in this game.

The problem comes from those that think min maxing is the only way a person should play and then they exclude someone because they only did 100 dps above the minimum req compared the high elf that did 115 dps more than the required minimum. Granted even this is only a problem if you have to run in the top progression groups.

I like that the racials give choices between min maxing and flavor. Choices that matter based on your mindset.

It's cute that you think current racials only make for a 100 dps difference. If you think 10% mainstant and 5% regen of a resource proc or 4% more lightning damage is 100 dps, you need to work on your math skills.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Honestly they should of made it so in the beginning when picking race, you pick the race you want and then pick the type of character you want to play.

Example. You pick Bosmer. You can then choose whether you want your Bosmer to focus on Mage, Warrior, or Healer. There could be mixed passives as well. Their could be a focus that maybe gives both health and stamina, or one with magicka damage and health. Nightblade, Templar, Dragon Knight, Sorcerer would still be the over all classes, but you would be able to pick from different sets of pre-made passives kind of like sub classes. This makes it even so any race can be anything they want to be. Although every elder scrolls game has given specific race bonuses, it's not outside of lore that a Breton is a warrior carrying a sword and shield and not just a caster. I've seen Nords in Skyrim being healers. So why do the races HAVE to be stuck to such basic choices?

I like customization. This is an MMO and it's 2015. Let's get with the picture.

cwp303b14_ESO

Little piece of trivia: Argonians have the only racial directly nerfed just for entering cyrodiil(Quick to Mend) while all races with a health bonus are actually buffed. Scaling is funny like that huh?