Impenetrable Calculations

Crown

Hello PvPers!

There have been a good few discussions regarding the best traits for PvP gear, so in order to assure that I'm making the best decision, I've put together a sheet of calculations to show how much mitigation Impenetrable and The Steed / Resistant (the champion points option for mitigating crit damage) will actually do, and how much damage you will take overall based on enemy crit ratings.

I'm sure that the sheet is not perfect, and I'm probably missing something important in there, so if you're interested in the math behind crit / impen then please take a look at Crown's Calculations and let me know if there's anything wrong / what you think / how this can be improved.

I'm currently working on an equivalent sheet for armour / spell resist and the Reinforced / Nirn traits.

Thanks!
Crown

Morozov

first....but i dont know what that will get me

Jujujitsu

Thanks for the time and effort put into that. And excuse my noobness on this matter, but how is crit damage calculated to begin with? I mean is it based off the original damage or the damage after the targets armor mitigation?

Crown

Jujujitsu wrote: »

Thanks for the time and effort put into that. And excuse my noobness on this matter, but how is crit damage calculated to begin with? I mean is it based off the original damage or the damage after the targets armor mitigation?

I believe that armour and spell resist affect the incoming damage first (reduce it), then the final determination of damage has the crit roll applied to it, and damage multiplier assigned based on my calculations.

DeLindsay

Very nice calcs, BM'd for future ref.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Thanks for those numbers!

WRX

After I quick look the overall numbers look right, and has a lot of good info in there. Curious to see if you came up with the same thing as me with Spell/Armor resist.

Ludoviko

Very well done Crown! Thank you.

Jahosefat

Thank you for this, it was very helpful

Rylana

Crown wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

Thanks for the time and effort put into that. And excuse my noobness on this matter, but how is crit damage calculated to begin with? I mean is it based off the original damage or the damage after the targets armor mitigation?

I believe that armour and spell resist affect the incoming damage first (reduce it), then the final determination of damage has the crit roll applied to it, and damage multiplier assigned based on my calculations.

From testing 1v1 with different gear combinations and abilities, using known "static" damage numbers like tooltip references and so on. The order of mitigation is as follows as far as I can tell.

Active damage reduction (Misform, damage shields), Passive damage reduction (champion point damage reduction passives vs specific types, etc), Armor mitigation, Block, Impen

Made up numbers incoming for easy simple math to show what I mean

Player 1 is standing on ground effect giving 20 percent damage redux, has 10 percent damage redux from his weapon line vs physical, has enough armor to reach 40% mitigation level, is blocking with no addtional bonus to blocked damage such as footman set, and has 400 impen stacked. he is also using a 2k damage shield (conventional wisdom says you cant crit a damage shield. this is true, but if your roll completely negates the shield, the damage that bled through counts as a crit of the same base damage before you bled the shield off, this is why I was able to one-two shot shield stack sorcs, because my damage was high enough to bleed past the shields and deliver my crit damage in FULL to them)

Player 2 will hit player 1 for 15000 crit. Of this crit 5000 is mitigatable by impenetrable (because this single attack completely burns down the shield on player 1, that 5000 will fully count towards every further calculation, a lot of people dont know this).

Calculation as follows.

15000 - 2000 (damage shield) = 13000

13000 * .8 (active damage mitigation) = 10,400

10400 * .9 (passive vs physical attack) = 9360

9360 * .6 (armor) = 5616

5616/2 (block) - 2808 (with 936 of this still part of the original crit damage, and thus subject to impen)

2808 - 400 (impen value because this was a crit) = 2408 total damage taken.


For a non crit the damage flows as follows. 10000, 8000, 6400, 5760, 3456, 1728 (with 1728 being unadjusted by impen)

From what I have tested and seen the armor vs impen calculation and decision making basically comes down to "do I have enough armor to mitigate more damage than impen would give me on the final stage of the crit calculation". Crunching numbers tells me that once you pass ~15000 armor rating, the answer is no. The benefit of additional armor no longer surpasses the benefit of reducing incoming crits. Especially with crit rates in the 40% or higher range. If full seven piece suits are used heavy armor should always be impen, medium armor should have at least 4 impen, and light armor should always be reinforced if used at all.

It further shows how unbelievably useless crit actually is most of the time (except vs full light users). Even if you stack crit damage and chance through the roof, armor and passives (and block) mitigates so much of it that by the time you get to the impen roll your entire crit stack has been reduced to almost negligible. Its a really good example of why lethal arrow is no longer "deadly" as it used to be. Armor = serious business (until 15000 armor). It also illustrates why light armor is suicide. Without that massive reduction from heavy or medium armor, you are going to take a massive damage spike from an attack like this if you arent stacking at least enough shields to absorb half of it, and impen if any of it gets through. However, reinforced light armor actually gives you more protection even from a crit because armor mitigates at such a higher rate now.

The main reason wrecking blow does so much damage is because blocking it drains stam to zero in one or two hits. Without stam block doesnt work. Most bow attacks are shot at a "fresh target" at range, whereas wreckers typically have been beating on the guy for a fair bit first. First WB usually around 5k, second is like 14k for this reason (double damage pretty much because no stam to block it with)

DannyLV702

Hmmmmmmmmm

leepalmer95

Rylana wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

Thanks for the time and effort put into that. And excuse my noobness on this matter, but how is crit damage calculated to begin with? I mean is it based off the original damage or the damage after the targets armor mitigation?

I believe that armour and spell resist affect the incoming damage first (reduce it), then the final determination of damage has the crit roll applied to it, and damage multiplier assigned based on my calculations.

From testing 1v1 with different gear combinations and abilities, using known "static" damage numbers like tooltip references and so on. The order of mitigation is as follows as far as I can tell.

Active damage reduction (Misform, damage shields), Passive damage reduction (champion point damage reduction passives vs specific types, etc), Armor mitigation, Block, Impen

Made up numbers incoming for easy simple math to show what I mean

Player 1 is standing on ground effect giving 20 percent damage redux, has 10 percent damage redux from his weapon line vs physical, has enough armor to reach 40% mitigation level, is blocking with no addtional bonus to blocked damage such as footman set, and has 400 impen stacked. he is also using a 2k damage shield (conventional wisdom says you cant crit a damage shield. this is true, but if your roll completely negates the shield, the damage that bled through counts as a crit of the same base damage before you bled the shield off, this is why I was able to one-two shot shield stack sorcs, because my damage was high enough to bleed past the shields and deliver my crit damage in FULL to them)

Player 2 will hit player 1 for 15000 crit. Of this crit 5000 is mitigatable by impenetrable (because this single attack completely burns down the shield on player 1, that 5000 will fully count towards every further calculation, a lot of people dont know this).

Calculation as follows.

15000 - 2000 (damage shield) = 13000

13000 * .8 (active damage mitigation) = 10,400

10400 * .9 (passive vs physical attack) = 9360

9360 * .6 (armor) = 5616

5616/2 (block) - 2808 (with 936 of this still part of the original crit damage, and thus subject to impen)

2808 - 400 (impen value because this was a crit) = 2408 total damage taken.


For a non crit the damage flows as follows. 10000, 8000, 6400, 5760, 3456, 1728 (with 1728 being unadjusted by impen)

From what I have tested and seen the armor vs impen calculation and decision making basically comes down to "do I have enough armor to mitigate more damage than impen would give me on the final stage of the crit calculation". Crunching numbers tells me that once you pass ~15000 armor rating, the answer is no. The benefit of additional armor no longer surpasses the benefit of reducing incoming crits. Especially with crit rates in the 40% or higher range. If full seven piece suits are used heavy armor should always be impen, medium armor should have at least 4 impen, and light armor should always be reinforced if used at all.

It further shows how unbelievably useless crit actually is most of the time (except vs full light users). Even if you stack crit damage and chance through the roof, armor and passives (and block) mitigates so much of it that by the time you get to the impen roll your entire crit stack has been reduced to almost negligible. Its a really good example of why lethal arrow is no longer "deadly" as it used to be. Armor = serious business (until 15000 armor). It also illustrates why light armor is suicide. Without that massive reduction from heavy or medium armor, you are going to take a massive damage spike from an attack like this if you arent stacking at least enough shields to absorb half of it, and impen if any of it gets through. However, reinforced light armor actually gives you more protection even from a crit because armor mitigates at such a higher rate now.

The main reason wrecking blow does so much damage is because blocking it drains stam to zero in one or two hits. Without stam block doesnt work. Most bow attacks are shot at a "fresh target" at range, whereas wreckers typically have been beating on the guy for a fair bit first. First WB usually around 5k, second is like 14k for this reason (double damage pretty much because no stam to block it with)

The reason the second one hits so hard is usually because a guy will get crit rushed, wb, the second will be empowered as well as get extra damage from the executioner passive as people are usually that low by then, even more so if the second ones crits.

Delegator

Rylana wrote: »

...From what I have tested and seen the armor vs impen calculation and decision making basically comes down to "do I have enough armor to mitigate more damage than impen would give me on the final stage of the crit calculation"...

Just wanted to say that this Rylana's post is about the most concise and helpful way I've seen to think about the various damage mitigation strategies. And, to turn it around it helps me think about whether I want more crit, more weapon damage, more penetration.

It seems like you want all the various goodies, either offensively or defensively, so that you have "enough" of each.