What up with all the drama about sorcs in 1.6?

Blud

I have a VR1 that I've been waiting to level up. My main focus is pvp. Are people just overreacting about sorcs being gimped, or is there some basis for that? I don't care about end-game trials or anything like that. Just pvp.

ThatHappyCat

Other

There are a lot of legitimate concerns about Sorcs that aren't solved with 1.6.5, and the class definitely needs more tweaking. I don't think it is as earth-shatteringly bad as many forumers seem to be making it out to be, however... for example the outrage on Unstable Familiar's cast time is ridiculous to me as no one used it before 1.6 anyway, so it's not like the nerf took anything away from existing Sorcs.

If it turns out the cast time is too much then ZOS can amend that, in the meantime the option to use it is there and time will tell if it's viable or not. Better than it not being viable for sure, I'd say.

Morvul

Other

I do not believe sorcs are broken to be unplayable.
However, they do have issues:
- too many toggle skills (togglemancers ftw)
- poor synergies among the class skills
- actuall negative synergies among class skills (looking at crit heals from surge and our buffed DoTs here - were the DoTs can "eat up" the heals)
- high magicka costs
- few Stamina options

In addition, many of the "main" sorc skills from 1.5 are nerfed to oblivion in in 1.6, so that's going to take some adjustment.

byrom101b16_ESO

Sorcs are gimped.

Interesting how the poll numbers reflect the four way split between classes, and that Sorc numbers in trials are way lower than the percentage in the poll.

21% say they are gimped, and ~14% are on Trial leaderboards.

So the people in the know nearly all say they are gimped and the others say they aren't - bias much? lmfao

Useless poll...

pppontus

They are overreacting. Sorcs are fine. L2P.

OP, just a tip. Don't mention the "Sorcerer" word on these forums, you will make a certain group very upset.

Anyways, Sorcs are very nice - effective and fun to play - in 1.6. I'm really happy with the changes.

Artemiisia

They are overreacting. Sorcs are fine. L2P.

I actually like this pull, shows there are lots of people that really likes how the sorc is, myself included, all the whiners for me, help me always to improve my sorc to all she can become.

People should stop looking at the top tier of trials and compare there char to them, if u love playing sorc as I do, play erm and enjoy it instead.

Though it will be no secret im leveling a DK on the side as well, and gotta say playing this game as DK, is easy mode compared to playing a sorc, I rather be a great sorc that actually had to learn the mechanics of the game then a DK that just steamrolls everything they come near.

You dont even need to be a min/maxer to steamroll everything with a DK, dont even have to be good even.

cozmon3c_ESO

Sorcs are gimped.

Sorcs are all right at 70 champion points, the issue is when stam builds start unlocking the champion point passives and become near unkillable machines of destruction. It may take a month for some stam build characters to get there and you will see where we are coming from.

byrom101b16_ESO

Sorcs are gimped.

Artemiisia wrote: »

I actually like this pull, shows there are lots of people that really likes how the sorc is, myself included, all the whiners for me, help me always to improve my sorc to all she can become.

People should stop looking at the top tier of trials and compare there char to them, if u love playing sorc as I do, play erm and enjoy it instead.

Though it will be no secret im leveling a DK on the side as well, and gotta say playing this game as DK, is easy mode compared to playing a sorc, I rather be a great sorc that actually had to learn the mechanics of the game then a DK that just steamrolls everything they come near.

You dont even need to be a min/maxer to steamroll everything with a DK, dont even have to be good even.

What a compliant position to take. Zenimax must love posts like this - it gives them something to point at when they say the people with grievances can effectively be ignored.

You make out like it's a challenge you relish - having to work hard to learn to keep up with exemode classes, and that is one way to look at it.

However, far more relevant to the discussion is that there is no fair reason to force anyone to work hard just to keep up, when others get it easy to excel.

To point that out isn't 'whining'... actually, it's making a much bettter and valid point than accepting and excusing bad game balance...

... EVERY class should have to go through a challenge to be the best!

Your inability to see the uselessness of 'putting up and shutting up' notwithstanding...

Aeternus

Sorcs are gimped.

Now that negate has been nerfed, sorcs have nothing to offer. Why would any group want a sorc that has to use 3 toggles including a pet just to scratch the dps that the other classes easily get while being completely useless and having literally no skills to support the rest of the group? I really regret spending the time leveling my sorc into the VR levels now and trusting that the devs would make proper changes to the class. As a new player it appears that I will have to reroll to another class if I ever want a guild to run Trials with.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs are all right at 70 champion points, the issue is when stam builds start unlocking the champion point passives and become near unkillable machines of destruction. It may take a month for some stam build characters to get there and you will see where we are coming from.

Ok I'll bite...

What build is that, and Where are you allocating those champ points?

Fruity_Ninja

Other

Feels good enough, people need to try adapt first. Give it a few weeks, find optimal a builds, and then decide.

There were some positive changes mixed amongst the negative ones as well. Too much emotion, not enough sensible logic at the moment.

Snit

Sorcs are gimped.

Sorcs are probably second or third best as ranged DPS. They're the worst at tanking or healing.

They *can* do anything, but their toolset doesn't make them especially flexible or great at anything.

Mumnoch

Snit wrote: »

Sorcs are probably second or third best as ranged DPS. They're the worst at tanking or healing.

They *can* do anything, but their toolset doesn't make them especially flexible or great at anything.

^
This unfortunately. My question is will Sorc's get the buff they require to be competitive in a timely fashion or should those of us wanting to be competitive just reroll?

o_0

Sorcs are gimped.

Mumnoch wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Sorcs are probably second or third best as ranged DPS. They're the worst at tanking or healing.

They *can* do anything, but their toolset doesn't make them especially flexible or great at anything.

^
This unfortunately. My question is will Sorc's get the buff they require to be competitive in a timely fashion or should those of us wanting to be competitive just reroll?

Depends if you are talking PVP or PVE. Sorc are better off in PVP at the moment, not sure if they can compete with other classes for trial choices.

Markuseb17_ESO15

Sorcs are gimped.

My sorcerer is broken. Can't play daily pledges and trials anymore. Need to start from scratch with a different build. Learn and try different skills. Throw away my legendary sets, etc. This really sucks. I don't care about PvP but 1.6 destroyed my play style in dungeons and trials. Don't know if I will continue to follow a constantly changing and nerfed game. I doubt the devs play themselves. Maybe they are forced to throw us back for months to win time for creating new content. Who knows?

Snit

Sorcs are gimped.

o_0 wrote: »

Depends if you are talking PVP or PVE. Sorc are better off in PVP at the moment

Better off than whom? Nightblades, maybe. Stam-stacking snipers are pretty scary, but they're also very flimsy if you can close on them.

I've spent maybe 10 hours in Cyrodiil on my sorc since 1.6 went live, getting up to #33 in Thornblade (that's good for me). I'm fairly happy with him. He's definitely a viable combatant. But no magicka-based ability touches Radiant Destruction, and DK's remain pretty dominant. I don't think many Templars or DK's will stay up nights thinking they should probably reroll sorc

But, yeah... magicka Sorcs are probably a lot more useful than magicka nightblades, or any hybrid.

Laplace

Sorcs are gimped.

o_0 wrote: »

Depends if you are talking PVP or PVE. Sorc are better off in PVP at the moment, not sure if they can compete with other classes for trial choices.

This.

As it stands, sorcs need not apply to trial groups. This is inevitably what happens when PVP is used as the measuring stick for classes: Certain groups cry about them being OP (even when they're not); the devs cave, and the cycle repeats because certain players are unpleasable. PVP and PVE and fundamentally different, especially endgame PVE. PVE should not be used to judge class balance in PVP and vice-versa.

Guild Wars got it right in having certain skills change depending on whether you were in a PVP or PVE zone.

Tankqull

Sorcs are gimped.

Laplace wrote: »

o_0 wrote: »

Depends if you are talking PVP or PVE. Sorc are better off in PVP at the moment, not sure if they can compete with other classes for trial choices.

This.

As it stands, sorcs need not apply to trial groups. This is inevitably what happens when PVP is used as the measuring stick for classes: Certain groups cry about them being OP (even when they're not); the devs cave, and the cycle repeats because certain players are unpleasable. PVP and PVE and fundamentally different, especially endgame PVE. PVE should not be used to judge class balance in PVP and vice-versa.

Guild Wars got it right in having certain skills change depending on whether you were in a PVP or PVE zone.

sorcs are fu... ich PvP aswell if the enemy halfway nows how to mitgate dmg. juggling around 300dps makes you wanna cry...
just as a hint
http://imgur.com/ifoh7t9

Nightreaver

Sorcs are gimped.

I answered "gimped" because the only selection to answer to say we are fine also states we are overreacting and need to L2P.

Though I'm not even sure I can even claim we are fine.
So far the only DPS comparison test between classes I have seen was done by Hodor which showed Sorcerers placing third. I'm not sure I can classify a class that doesn't excel in either DPS, Healer or Tank as being "fine". Currently the most optimistic description of Sorcerers I have heard is "viable". Viable isn't fine for me. I don't want to be viable, I want to be just as good. I think I'll wait until I see some fair comparisons made showing Sorcerer DPS matching the DPS of other classes before I can consider Sorcerers to be fine.

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

... for example the outrage on Unstable Familiar's cast time is ridiculous to me as no one used it before 1.6 anyway, so it's not like the nerf took anything away from existing Sorcs.

If it turns out the cast time is too much then ZOS can amend that, in the meantime the option to use it is there and time will tell if it's viable or not. Better than it not being viable for sure, I'd say.

I was actually "content" with the Clannfear before they added the heal. Then like some sick April Fools joke they immediately nerfed it. I would rather see them remove the heal entirely and return it to its previous state than the sad state it is in now. ZOS put on such a production raving how awesome the Sorcerer pet DPS would be only to end up being better off without it.

I agree that we should wait to see how it does on Live. We should give it the same amount of time the unnerfed version was given to try on Live. Ok, time's up.

pppontus wrote: »

OP, just a tip. Don't mention the "Sorcerer" word on these forums, you will make a certain group very upset.

Just a tip. This poll, phrased in the manner that it is, would get the same result regardless of what class it was directed at.

Asking what all the drama is then creating a poll where the only option to say we are fine also includes that we are overreacting and need to L2P. Go ahead, apply that to any other class and see how well it is accepted.

"They are overreacting. Sorcs are fine. L2P."

Seriously? So If I think Sorcerers are fine then I am also conceding that I need to L2P?

Blud

Artemiisia wrote: »

Seriously? So If I think Sorcerers are fine then I am also conceding that I need to L2P?

Point taken.

I don't have any attachment to sorcs at the moment, so I didn't think about it that way. I guess if someone said something like that about templars a couple of months ago, I would not like the phrasing either.

o_0

Sorcs are gimped.

Laplace wrote: »

o_0 wrote: »

Depends if you are talking PVP or PVE. Sorc are better off in PVP at the moment, not sure if they can compete with other classes for trial choices.

This.

As it stands, sorcs need not apply to trial groups. This is inevitably what happens when PVP is used as the measuring stick for classes: Certain groups cry about them being OP (even when they're not); the devs cave, and the cycle repeats because certain players are unpleasable. PVP and PVE and fundamentally different, especially endgame PVE. PVE should not be used to judge class balance in PVP and vice-versa.

Guild Wars got it right in having certain skills change depending on whether you were in a PVP or PVE zone.

Just look at the weekly Trial leaderboards. 7/84 players are Sorcs. That's working as intended right?

Stannum

I had stamina sorc in 1.5. Rally+critical surge was great now in 1.6 they covers each other and surge is usless skill (while rally can use any class).

Jar_Ek

Other

My view on it is not that sorcerers are completely gimped but they are in no way fine either. There are some builds that work and some skills that are good, but much of the synergy that makes a class good is missing. Plus sorcerers seeming to have been pigeon holed as magicka dps and/or pet builds. There is not much for tanks, stamina dps (due to ability costs) or healers... This may become better with more cp spent, but sorcerers will always be behind because of it.

Jeremy

Blud wrote: »

I have a VR1 that I've been waiting to level up. My main focus is pvp. Are people just overreacting about sorcs being gimped, or is there some basis for that? I don't care about end-game trials or anything like that. Just pvp.

These changes are pretty dramatic and certain player builds are going to be adversely affected by it. So I don't think they are over-reacting.

It can be frustrating to have to remake your character from the ground up and they are likely just venting.

Attorneyatlawl

They are overreacting. Sorcs are fine. L2P.

Artemiisia wrote: »

I actually like this pull, shows there are lots of people that really likes how the sorc is, myself included, all the whiners for me, help me always to improve my sorc to all she can become.

People should stop looking at the top tier of trials and compare there char to them, if u love playing sorc as I do, play erm and enjoy it instead.

Though it will be no secret im leveling a DK on the side as well, and gotta say playing this game as DK, is easy mode compared to playing a sorc, I rather be a great sorc that actually had to learn the mechanics of the game then a DK that just steamrolls everything they come near.

You dont even need to be a min/maxer to steamroll everything with a DK, dont even have to be good even.

Interesting perspective. I assume based on leveling and not vr even? Leveling balance rarely is very even in mmorpg's, but the sorc even there is much easier and somewhat faster when built for quick leveling on that vs a dk. I can level a fresh sorc to vr1 and cadwell's silver in 19-20 hours /played, while a dk takes me around 21-22. Not a huge gap, but the sorc is basically braindead easy for that comparatively.

As far as endgame ie vr14 I feel the sorc is stronger in pvp at this time even with the design faults. For pve dps it's relatively close but we'll see how things shake out in the next few weeks of live.

c0rp

Sorcs are gimped.

The problem is this: need a tank? You are not choosing a sorc. Need a healer? You are not choosing a sorc. Need a DPS? You are not choosing a sorc. There is no easier way to point it out. The sorc is not better at ANYTHING in comparison to the other 3 classes. This is just the overall picture.

Extremely limited stamina options for mophs (while DK and NBs got awesome new stam morphs). Too much toggle BS. Bolt Escape nerfed into oblivion while other classes run around spamming their OP class abilities (radiant destruction anyone?). The sorc has overall bad design and not enough is being done to correct it.

/end rant.

Jaerlach

I got my V2 sorc in green gear to 6500 dps over 30s on a single target.

Weaving feels different and different for each type of staff. Perhaps we all need a bit more practice.

Its far too early to say what is currently good or bad. You could be getting bad results for a wide range of reasons. You could have the right gear and wrong rotation, the right rotation and the wrong gear, etc.

Nightreaver

Sorcs are gimped.

Blud wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

Seriously? So If I think Sorcerers are fine then I am also conceding that I need to L2P?

Point taken.

I don't have any attachment to sorcs at the moment, so I didn't think about it that way. I guess if someone said something like that about templars a couple of months ago, I would not like the phrasing either.

Actually that quote came from me. Perhaps I came on a bit too strong but to me the poll just seemed geared toward asking other classes how they felt about Sorcerer performance. And any time you ask one class how they feel about a different class the odds are pretty good that they will reply that they are either fine or OP. Very rarely will you find anyone saying a different class is weak or gimped in comparison to their own.

That being said I am actually enjoying the 1.6 Sorcerer more. Takes a bit more skill and awareness but has more of an actual glass canon feel to it. In 1.5 a Sorcerer could run through a group of VR13 mobs and just spam impulse with Surge up. Took some time but was simple and effective. In 1.6 the same groups of VR13 mobs just melt, they're dead before I feel I am even getting started. Haven't tried a dungeon yet but even the VR13 open world named mobs go down much quicker now. So anxious now to see how it compares to other classes.

Emma_Overload

Sorcs are gimped.

Nightreaver wrote: »

In 1.6 the same groups of VR13 mobs just melt, they're dead before I feel I am even getting started. Haven't tried a dungeon yet but even the VR13 open world named mobs go down much quicker now.

I guess I know what you're talking about, but SOME mobs seem much more problematic than before. Example: VR13 Scaled Court Illusionists are really hard to kill when their in a group because 1) they don't bunch up and 2) their Fright Force spells hit really hard and 3) their spells include seemingly unblockable "fear" effects. In 1.5 I could count on AOE DOTs like Elemental Blockade to provide a steady flow Surge heals to keep me alive when I'm feared, but that stuff doesn't work any more. I've tried the Clannfear to draw aggro, but he doesn't stay alive very long against these guys. The ONLY strategy I've tried that seems reliable is to use 1H+S "Power Slam" CC to put them sleep while I take them out one by one, but that doesn't feel very Sorc-like, you know what I mean?

Do you have any techniques that work against these guys?

UPDATE: I finally found a way to beat Scaled Court goons easily.

1) Get Resto staff and Heavy Armor.

2) Hold down block and spam Blessing of Restoration while slowly cooking these goons in a Lightning Pool.

rfennell_ESO

Sorcs are gimped.

Overall the sorc is pretty gimp for pve. It's a weaker class than it was in 1.5 versus the same mobs.

Most of that has to do with the heavy nerfing of critical surge. Now you might say it was only changed to .25 seconds.... but there is far more to the nerf than that. It's been hit at many angles... It procs it's heal at a lesser % of critical, if you use power surge (ie magicka caster) at 25% less and it does it less often.

It costs more magicka than before...

At face value it seemed like a minor change, but it's overall healing is like 10% of what it once was. It's an approximation, but I see like 500 hps from it and that's terrible.... I used to see double that total regularly in 1.5 when I had 1/10th the health to heal. The healing is also unreliable, as once you get burning going and the elemental ring dot effect and whatever else you are using that is a dot or dotlike effect they start overwhelming the large heals. You are forced to use your shield ability to stay up and even worse the capping of the effect to .25 second intervals means you aren't getting healing from multiple sources either.

Now 1.5 critical surge was a little op in very narrow circumstances. Sure a decent sorc could roll through waves of normal mobs at a nice clip and never really be at risk of dying. That's not exactly game breaking as so can a dk or temp or nightblade... They might have to rely on an additional ability to do it, but spellscar wasn't exactly an only sorcs can solo grindfest (or Rkzund or whatever ae grinds existed and were nerfed into trivia).

Further changes in general also hurt sorcs... ie running oos so fast it's laughable. Running out of magicka so fast it's unbelieveable...

In pvp sorcs were nerfed and buffed. Sure crystal frags hitting for a decent clip is nice, it burning magicka like ZOS credibility though a sieve isn't. Negate magic is both nerfed and then nerfed again. It was nerfed to not dispel during it's duration and then stealth nerfed to be a point blank only ability (the ranged use of it is gone). Curse is pretty potent now.

But when you realize that every fotm pvper will eventually realize they ought go 2 hander and attack from stealth and Uppercut uppercut to win is really bad for sorcs that have to rely on the magicka savings of light armor or be perpetually oom. The worst part of it all is hearing the 2 hander users claim that it's fair and right and hard to hit a skill twice from stealth or how it's extremely skillful to have to hit it a 3rd time to win versus anyone not in full medium or heavier armor for their base armor rating. Now that dull tingling feeling in some heads that resounds as what the barely sentient might call a thought might respond with "lol blok it" or "lolz inturept it" or "move awae lolz", well the answer to why you are "pwning all the nubs" isn't you somehow grew a brain overnight when 1.6 was released. It's because there is no real way to deal with medium armor wearing 2 hander using opponents. Best part is if you don't get 2 shot and counter them they dodge roll dodge roll dodge roll away from you so they can charge back in and hit 1 button to win. I guess you could chalk this up as not actually a sorc nerf, but if you haven't had the joyful experience of being perpetually oom in pvp WITH light armor on.. you might not be able to deduce what it might be like without the light armor. I'm sure the counter to that is ramble of misspelled words that translate into everyone was nerfed the same (lolz), but sorc magicka costs are really REALLY high, higher than any other class. So the light armor nerfing hurts sorcs pretty hard. I'd get into stamina sorcs and how they got no love, but it's not my thing.

Is there light at the end of the tunnel? There are some builds (toggle heavy for instance) that perform decently in very narrow circumstances. Then there is the prospect of many cps propping up your weaknesses so you can perform worse than every other class. You CAN kill people in pvp, unless they are a templar that can breathe through their nose, or a nightblade that isn't in special education or a dk with ultimate up or anyone running around spamming critical charge or uppercut. Fortunately there are a lot of people that aren't in those classifications, unfortunately many will be picking up 2 handers soon.

Mumnoch

Ready to give up on my Sorc as I don't believe they will get any buffage anytime soon as this was a "major" update that just pushed Sorc's further behind everyone else.

What would be some powerful combinations to make up for the time I've wasted on my Sorc?

Would a Imperial DK give me that feeling of being powerful? Or Imperial Nightblade/Templar? Would a Woodelf DK be able to achieve top DPS? What would you guys suggest as the new "top DPS" race/class combo?