Questions: Zenimax - Why have you nerfed Light Armour so hard compared to the others?

Cody

daemonios wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

LA tanks should never have existed. You are wearing LIGHT ARMOR. It is not really armor in the first place, its almost regular clothing! You are SUPPOSED to have minimal protection!

LA players have big cost reduction to spells and magicka recovery bonuses, as well as having their spells ignore a good chunk of spell resistance; this, combined with the glyphs covering up the armor gaps, made LA players OP as heck compared to MA and especially HA users. HA SHOULD offer more physical and magical protection. One wears heavy armor FOR the protection; it was absurd LA gave equal to or more protection due to glyphs, than heavy armor. LA is screwed up and unbalanced on live right now, and 1.6 thankfully changes that.

Now its time to tone everything else down and fix this armor issue once and for all. Once this is done, we all can put this issue behind us and focus on bigger and better things.

If you mean you shouldn't be able to tank as a DK with light armour and no damage shields, I agree. I absolutely disagree that magicka-based characters with damage shields shouldn't be able to tank with light armour.

As others have pointed out, light armour is often compensated with higher spell resistance. Why is this not the case in ESO? Why should heavy armour provide both the best damage protection and the best spell protection? I'm worried that magicka characters (except Templars) will be forced to play as DPS and only DPS, since if a magicka-based character goes for heavy armour they'll all but lose any chance at sustainability. Even if that weren't the case, I can't understand what's so shocking about tanking with magic shields/absorbs, or with stealth/dodge/evade for that matter. I hate how this game is basically eliminating any chance of diversity.

i don't mean damage shields; i mean someone in all LA using a regular shield, tanking just as well or better than someone in HA:/ damage shields have nothing to do with it, nor did I even mention damage shields.

and don't bring DKs into this. If y'all start bringing in DKs and try to pin them to this I will leave and find another discussion that is worth my time. this is not a class based issue, its an armor based issue.

Tankqull

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

5 light, 1 heavy, 1 medium still gets you about 15% mitigation if the non-light pieces are chest/legs/shoulders/helm and reinforced.

By contrast, 5 medium, 1 heavy, 1 light provides about 20% mitigation

It's not that big of a gap if you stop looking at 7 of any armor type. And the undaunted bonus is just to big to ignore once you have it

i allready have problems with mana consumption on the pts i do not want to think about even less spellcost reduction thx to 2 lost pieces.

tplink3r1

Tankqull wrote: »

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

Lets be realistic here. Light armour was absurd on live. You should never be able to tank wearing a bath robe for christ sake. In live the only viable way to play is to go Light armour, 1h&s/resto.

This needs to change only time will tell have they done it correctly. The typical mmo scaling is as follows:
Light armour takes most damage but also deals most
Medium armour is middle of the road
Heavy armour absorbs most damage deals least


The lines blur in this game due to stamina being your major defense resource (block, roll, cc breakfree etc). A stamina build will always be the most risky build. As your damage and defense all come from the same resource.

what we have with 1.6
light armor takes the most dmg(2-3x more) while dealing the least (~5% less than heavy)
medium armor is nearly as tanky as heavy armor while dealing by far the most dmg
heavy armor the most tanky while still dealing more dmg as a 1.5 light armor user ^^

absolutly great balance.

Full heavy armor takes around 25% less damage compared to LA in PTS, not 2~3 times more.

snipeopsub17_ESO

If Medium & Heavy Armors get spell resist then light should get 4 times reduced dodge cost (it is light armor after all) of medium armor and also a lot more spell penetration.

WraithAzraiel

Answer: The sheer fact that light armor tanking became an actual thing.

/thread.

byrom101b16_ESO

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Answer: The sheer fact that light armor tanking became an actual thing.

/thread.

OK, well I'll answer this point again...

The fact tanking was possible in LA was due to the overperformance of shields and armour boosting buffs, NOT the armour values of LA.

The solution to reduce the effectiveness of LA is fixing the wrong problem!

byrom101b16_ESO

Still no explanation from Zenimax as to what they have done and why.

Nihil

Tankqull wrote: »

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

Lets be realistic here. Light armour was absurd on live. You should never be able to tank wearing a bath robe for christ sake. In live the only viable way to play is to go Light armour, 1h&s/resto.

This needs to change only time will tell have they done it correctly. The typical mmo scaling is as follows:
Light armour takes most damage but also deals most
Medium armour is middle of the road
Heavy armour absorbs most damage deals least


The lines blur in this game due to stamina being your major defense resource (block, roll, cc breakfree etc). A stamina build will always be the most risky build. As your damage and defense all come from the same resource.

what we have with 1.6
light armor takes the most dmg(2-3x more) while dealing the least (~5% less than heavy)
medium armor is nearly as tanky as heavy armor while dealing by far the most dmg
heavy armor the most tanky while still dealing more dmg as a 1.5 light armor user ^^

absolutly great balance.

A couple quick points, the argument I am going to make is based on tool tips due to any numbers that very from the tool tips I am going to count as a bug until they announce they are a tool tip error or gets changed (light armor cost reduction being <21% and medium armor cost reduction being >21%, I highly advise everyone /bug these as otherwise this does creat an imbalance of resources). Second, it is also looking like you are evaulating melee vs range and armor in the same comparison, while related there could be other issues not related to armor that would need to be changed if their is truly an imbalance.

Starting with your comments on light armor, as others stated your damage numbers are over exaggerated as to take 2 x more damage it would literaly be a 50 % reduction vs 0 % reduction. Also Heavy armor produces 0% increase to ones DPS (other then templars shield based on max health) so comparing that to light armor damage saying that light armor deals less doesn't even have any weight to it.

Now, to compare light to medium, base stats on tool tips show that reduction and regen should be the same (once they fix bugs). We have a 10.5 % increase to crit rate with 7 pieces of armor for medium, and light armor has a 10 % increase to crit with 5 pieces of armor. Medium armor has 12 % increase to weapon power (dps increase ranging from ~5 % to ~10 %), light armor has 47xx spell penetration (dps increase ranging from 0% to 14%). Medium armor also doe shave the reduction to dodge. But could not a case be made that magicka gets reduction to their abilities that negate damage (BoL, cloak, scales) already through their magicka reduction passive? So the final passive being sneak vs spell resistence. I do think the spell resistence does not synergize the greatest with light armor now asthe benefits are minimual in comparison to the base defenses of the other armors, specially when they now rely pn damage shields. I do think a small increase to all damage shield based on light armor piece (along side the spell resist as dont want to leave out NB's) would synergize better (would maybe need to rebalance some damage shields accordingly). LA also has one more advantag eove rmedium tho, its dpa increase stops at 5 armor pieces, allowing it to sacrifice just sustain to obtain some benefits of other armors, MA sacrifices up to 3% crit rate if they switch 2 armor pieces (and the sustain La would suffer as well).

Now the argument of base armor, in other games the armor could be balanced also against what skills you gave the classes who wore the armor. In eso this isn't as possible due to the build it how you like mechanics. Instead what we seem to see is that each armor ties into a resource, magicka has the most variety of skills that scale with /use it while medium armor has less that scale / use it. So light armor users in theory gain more options just by relying on that stat. Is it worth the decrease in defense? Maybe maybe not, will basically come down to how things will play out come live.

Heavy armor on the other hand gain a bit more armor (33%more then medium + passive that increases damage mitigation by another ~3.7 %, 4 times more then light). The majority of their damage shields will be stronger, health increase, and receive more healing allowing them to recover from damage eaiser. But they lack any type of dps increase and have minimul resource management. So they give up quite a bit to be able to stand in the front lines and take some hits.

Tl:dr - mana management should be similar between LA and MA. Dps increase gives MA a higher min but a lower max then LA. LA has more skills/ skill trees to choose from per bar then MA does, but lacks passive defense. I do think the spell resistence is not synergizing as well due to the need to run damage shields and lower base spell resistence. HA is all about surviving and have no extra dps to go with it.

F7sus4

ItsRejectz wrote: »

it means you get strong tanks with very high dps at the moment.

That's the problem. High Armored tanks should never be as good at DPSing as Light Armor users are. Or even close to. If they are, what's the advantage of actually using Light Armor?

And no, the Spell Cost reduction that you can easily cover with CP and the 10% Spell Crit bonus for LA is just totally not worth the great loss of survivability anymore.

(The excessive Spell Resistance for Heavy Armor is ridiculous too.)

byrom101b16_ESO

F7sus4 wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

it means you get strong tanks with very high dps at the moment.

That's the problem. High Armored tanks should never be as good at DPSing as Light Armor users are. Or even close to. If they are, what's the advantage of actually using Light Armor?

And no, the Spell Cost reduction that you can easily cover with CP and the 10% Spell Crit bonus for LA is just totally not worth the great loss of survivability anymore.

(The excessive Spell Resistance for Heavy Armor is ridiculous too.)

Indeed - but it seems this forum is only for giving the 'right type' of feedback, as we don't have an answer, or a promise of an answer so far.

Solanum

Tankqull wrote: »

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

Lets be realistic here. Light armour was absurd on live. You should never be able to tank wearing a bath robe for christ sake. In live the only viable way to play is to go Light armour, 1h&s/resto.

This needs to change only time will tell have they done it correctly. The typical mmo scaling is as follows:
Light armour takes most damage but also deals most
Medium armour is middle of the road
Heavy armour absorbs most damage deals least


The lines blur in this game due to stamina being your major defense resource (block, roll, cc breakfree etc). A stamina build will always be the most risky build. As your damage and defense all come from the same resource.

what we have with 1.6
light armor takes the most dmg(2-3x more) while dealing the least (~5% less than heavy)
medium armor is nearly as tanky as heavy armor while dealing by far the most dmg
heavy armor the most tanky while still dealing more dmg as a 1.5 light armor user ^^

absolutly great balance.

I'm very interested to hear what damage passives heavy armor has that are superior to the light armor passives for dealing damage.

Tankqull

Solanum wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

Lets be realistic here. Light armour was absurd on live. You should never be able to tank wearing a bath robe for christ sake. In live the only viable way to play is to go Light armour, 1h&s/resto.

This needs to change only time will tell have they done it correctly. The typical mmo scaling is as follows:
Light armour takes most damage but also deals most
Medium armour is middle of the road
Heavy armour absorbs most damage deals least


The lines blur in this game due to stamina being your major defense resource (block, roll, cc breakfree etc). A stamina build will always be the most risky build. As your damage and defense all come from the same resource.

what we have with 1.6
light armor takes the most dmg(2-3x more) while dealing the least (~5% less than heavy)
medium armor is nearly as tanky as heavy armor while dealing by far the most dmg
heavy armor the most tanky while still dealing more dmg as a 1.5 light armor user ^^

absolutly great balance.

I'm very interested to hear what damage passives heavy armor has that are superior to the light armor passives for dealing damage.

its simply the fact that melee and especially 2h does much more dmg than anything else. so the additional dmg passiva LA has over HA just measly compensates that effect, thus ~5%less. sure if you are using a destro staff in HA thats not the case but that completly contradicts the brawler intention of HA...