VOTE - What is the MAIN thing the champion system reinforces and gives to players.

Beleron

1. INCENTIVE AND REWARDS FOR GRINDING.
2. PROGRESSION
3. REWARDS FOR HARD WORK.
4. REWARDS FOR MOST TIME SPENT INGAME
5. GAME BALANCE
6. GAME INBALANCE


vote away, lets see how people view the champion system. First vote goes to, 1.incentive for rewards and grinding. Since the difference between 70 and 3600 cp is far to much to me personally.

Panda244

#6 - It creates an enormous gap between veteran players, and people just starting out to the game.

Teargrants

#6, unless they offer some kind of 'CP booster pack' for ppl under a certain CP threshold between expansions it's just going to create an increasingly insurmountable gap between newcomers and vets. In that kind of system, no new ppl are going to want to go into PvP once they figure out what a huge power gap they're on the losing end of.

And they sure as hell will find out - end game PvE guilds will absolutely judge ppl based on # of CP just as they judge by gearout and build now. CP has a significant impact on DPS after all.

Ninnghizhidda

"6"

Also, because as it is now, and other people have demonstrated, the "diminishing returns" is an illusion, since the "power curve" is quite linear actually. So... the "oldies" (or call them "hardcore grinders" if you prefer} will actually benefit far more than the "newbie" just starting. Whether they are "entitled" for this power gap is a completely different discussion, but the Champion system as is, looks far from equalising gaps between players (was that its whole purpose to begin with?).

I am just not convinced. It just looks to me like an endless grind marathon, with the intention to fool people and get them hooked into it, then "lock them" into a unicorn chase for the next XXX months / years. Oh, unless of course... we are going to see some cool ways to speed up the process (and I mean by a lot), enter... "the crown shop". And no, I don't just mean some regular exp boost pots. Probably something far more drastic. But time shall tell, sooner than later.

Liea

#6 avatars with lots of champion points become god-like in PVP and PVE compared to new players

Jar_Ek

6.

Time and willingness to grind will equal power with a linear power gain curve.

ToRelax

6.

Fayaburn

1 - 6

RoamingRiverElk

#6.

Makes people incredibly powerful simply based on grinding. And what those points will do really *is* create imbalance. This is based on my hands-on experience on the PTS and the experiences of my friends there. Though that hands-on experience is not really even needed, if you will just look at the constellations.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

#6 and #7 Lack of flexibility and choice

Kragorn

"Gives to players"

8. Nothing we didn't have before it got taken away and re-packaged to create this mis-begotten grind-fest.

pppontus

A bit early to say but my prediction is that I will quit the game in a few months as I'll be unable to keep up anymore due to limited playtime going forward. Isn't it fun when developers force you to quit (+paying for) a game because you just can't stay competetive if you don't grind for 12 hours a day? They shot themselves in the foot really hard with this one.

Edit: probably used a shotgun.

TehMagnus

In correct order:

6. GAME INBALANCE
1. INCENTIVE AND REWARDS FOR GRINDING.
4. REWARDS FOR MOST TIME SPENT INGAME
3. REWARDS FOR HARD WORK. (grinding is so annoying you can consider it's hard work)

pppontus

TehMagnus wrote: »

3. REWARDS FOR HARD WORK. (grinding is so annoying you can consider it's hard work)

^This. I already do this for 8+ hours a day, and they pay me money for it. Not going to pay them to do more of it.. wtf.

Edit: Chinese leveling services will be very happy though I'm sure. Although I'd much rather quit playing than paying for that

Costismaros

2. progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

pppontus

Costismaros wrote: »

2. progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

Fine by me. If MMORPGs are only available to those who can play 10hrs a day now I'm ok with that, I'll find something else to do. Considering most of the community in this game is 18+ however I can't imagine they get to keep very many plaers that way tho.

Kragorn

Costismaros wrote: »

2. progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

Because MOBAs have deep gameplay and provide interest for months and years.

ESO post-50 is becoming the kind of game where the unemployed and students get an advantage denied to those with jobs or real-lives and any sort.

Costismaros

pppontus wrote: »

Costismaros wrote: »

2. progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

Fine by me. If MMORPGs are only available to those who can play 10hrs a day now I'm ok with that, I'll find something else to do. Considering most of the community in this game is 18+ however I can't imagine they get to keep very many plaers that way tho.

This is how it goes on mmorpg. There are really hardcore games that greeding going up for more than 2 years just to catch up the lvl. And then you need more than 2 years to catch up on gear. There are 3 speeds on exp gain. You will see at all mmorpg sites thats ESO has really hight speed on exp gain. They cannot do it easier because then people will loose the interest of the game. Like i said there are 3 speeds on exp gain. Hight = fast exp, medium = normal exp gain and low = low exp gain.
To be honest in eso we have alot new mmorpg players who complain about everythink because the came from single player rpg games.

Kragorn wrote: »

Costismaros wrote: »

2. progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

Because MOBAs have deep gameplay and provide interest for months and years.

ESO post-50 is becoming the kind of game where the unemployed and students get an advantage denied to those with jobs or real-lives and any sort.

Because MOBAS you start every game at same time with others and the game holds 45 min.

Kas

most of the above

• imho at first it will be fun in terms and provide new means of progression
• it will reward grinders but also reward you for many thing that were previously really unrewarding:
  • working your way through trials (at least as soon as there is new content that needs workign through)
  • helping mates with their dailies even though you've already comleted it
  • grinding for item rewards without RNG luck (VDSA runs for MWeapons with specific traits)
• Players investing ltos of time will get far ahead. But let's be honest: it's already like that. PvP is dominated by groups that play together A LOT and work much better together. PvE content is so much about knowing each encounter (knowing all sources of danger and spawn positions what VDSA is all about)
• eventually there will be balance issues because 1500CP+ players will not liek to group with relatively new players. (I don't really fear for PvP too much. 90% of players can't even be helped by every CP in the world)
• just like every other mmo ZOS will then make it easiert to "catch up"

Personally, I just hope that PvP XP will be somewhat competetive. ~50% XP/time for a superb day of PvP sounds compared to grinding sounds fine already. If you compare gridning out vet levels with leveling through PvP now, you're looking at abyssmal PvP XP. I think we had a low level (V2 or something) guildie in oru group once and he didn't even get a single vet level up after about 400k AP for a long, long sunday session of PvP. He couldv'e grinded 4-5 vet levels in that time.

Voltos

Costismaros wrote: »

2. Progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

#2! Thank you! Someone finally said it.

The whole point of creating new content for an MMO, is to keep the players interested and provide something to work towards. The system will not be perfect in the begining, but ZOS wants to keep people playing. If the system needs to be adjusted down the road, it will be. I think most people forget that an MMO is a living, breathing entity. ESO is just a toddler, learning how to walk for the first time.

Finally, a company has created a game for the "True MMO'er," (a.k.a. we throwbacks from the EQ era), and it's about time. Thank you, ZOS! Thank you for making a real MMO, not an FPS disguised as one.

pppontus

Costismaros wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Costismaros wrote: »

2. progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

Fine by me. If MMORPGs are only available to those who can play 10hrs a day now I'm ok with that, I'll find something else to do. Considering most of the community in this game is 18+ however I can't imagine they get to keep very many plaers that way tho.

This is how it goes on mmorpg. There are really hardcore games that greeding going up for more than 2 years just to catch up the lvl. And then you need more than 2 years to catch up on gear. There are 3 speeds on exp gain. You will see at all mmorpg sites thats ESO has really hight speed on exp gain. They cannot do it easier because then people will loose the interest of the game. Like i said there are 3 speeds on exp gain. Hight = fast exp, medium = normal exp gain and low = low exp gain.
To be honest in eso we have alot new mmorpg players who complain about everythink because the came from single player rpg games.

Kragorn wrote: »

Costismaros wrote: »

2. progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

Because MOBAs have deep gameplay and provide interest for months and years.

ESO post-50 is becoming the kind of game where the unemployed and students get an advantage denied to those with jobs or real-lives and any sort.

Because MOBAS you start every game at same time with others and the game holds 45 min.

Well, I'll be interested to see how well a game can sustain itself through income only from students and the unemployed. But you enjoy your 2 years of grinding and 2 years of acquiring gear, I will not be here because I need to pay my bills and ESO doesn't do that.

TehMagnus

Voltos wrote: »

Costismaros wrote: »

2. Progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

#2! Thank you! Someone finally said it.

The whole point of creating new content for an MMO, is to keep the players interested and provide something to work towards. The system will not be perfect in the begining, but ZOS wants to keep people playing. If the system needs to be adjusted down the road, it will be. I think most people forget that an MMO is a living, breathing entity. ESO is just a toddler, learning how to walk for the first time.

Finally, a company has created a game for the "True MMO'er," (a.k.a. we throwbacks from the EQ era), and it's about time. Thank you, ZOS! Thank you for making a real MMO, not an FPS disguised as one.

You guys clearly know nothing about MMOs or progression.

Voltos

TehMagnus wrote: »

You guys clearly know nothing about MMOs or progression.

Right, because my experience is invalid. Instead of simply rebuking my statement, why don't you provide something constructive to the conversation. What would you like to see instead? Because, the VR system was a great success...

It seems, this community does nothing but whine. You hated the VR system, so they're tossing it in favor of the Champion System, which is an impressive undertaking. The communities initial response to the Champion System was extremely positive, until now. Everyone is whining again because it isn't "perfect." Well, guess what, it won't be for awhile, but the idea is that it will be.

Consider this, ZOS radically changed the nature of the endgame in ESO due to the communities feedback. Point being, keep the feedback constructive, because bashing ZOS or the people on the forums won't get you anywhere.

Rydik

6

McDoogs

I'm looking forward to having all the benefits of VR14 and many, many more CP than the average player.

Lied

Using 3 to provide 2 while accidentally creating 6 but hopefully being reigned back into a 5.

Kragorn

TehMagnus wrote: »

Voltos wrote: »

Costismaros wrote: »

2. Progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

#2! Thank you! Someone finally said it.

The whole point of creating new content for an MMO, is to keep the players interested and provide something to work towards. The system will not be perfect in the begining, but ZOS wants to keep people playing. If the system needs to be adjusted down the road, it will be. I think most people forget that an MMO is a living, breathing entity. ESO is just a toddler, learning how to walk for the first time.

Finally, a company has created a game for the "True MMO'er," (a.k.a. we throwbacks from the EQ era), and it's about time. Thank you, ZOS! Thank you for making a real MMO, not an FPS disguised as one.

You guys clearly know nothing about MMOs or progression.

I'm not sure the niche you play in is a good indicator of what MMOs are about either, considering the trivially small percentage of players in all MMOs that are the hardcore raiders in guilds like Hodor.

Fact is, no MMO released this century could ever survive on the small number of players bleeding-edge raiding attracts, raiders seriously over-estimate their importance when it comes to long-term sustainability of a large-scale MMO.

Erock25

I am a firm believer in there being a constant progression in an MMO. I actually like having a 'grind' that increases the power of my character. I do think that the power gap is too large though even with the diminishing returns. I believe someone with 25% of total CP should be at 75% total power. Someone with 30% CP should be at 85% power. Someone with 50% CP should be at 95% power. Basically, you are near full power with only 30% total investment while anyone who reaches that 50% total CP investment still has a reason, albeit very minor, to continue their progression. So my answer is 1 with a side of 6.

Bouvin

#6.

And grinding. Lots of grinding.

TehMagnus

Voltos wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

You guys clearly know nothing about MMOs or progression.

Right, because my experience is invalid. Instead of simply rebuking my statement, why don't you provide something constructive to the conversation. What would you like to see instead? Because, the VR system was a great success...

I don't know when I see people making bold crazy statements like:

"Finally, a company has created a game for the "True MMO'er" and it's about time" <= If you think Champion System (which is nothing else than 300+ levels disguised as a "horizontal progression" but in fact is the worst kind of endless vertical progression that has ever been implemented in a game) is True MMO'er gameplay, you are delusional and know nothing about MMORPGS, I've been playing MMORPGs for 15 years and I've never seen such a system nor do I understand how it could be described as "True MMO'er" since there is no such thing as true MMO'er gameplay, there is successful MMO'er gameplay though and none of it involves such endless grinding systems.

Voltos wrote: »

It seems, this community does nothing but whine. You hated the VR system, so they're tossing it in favor of the Champion System, which is an impressive undertaking. The communities initial response to the Champion System was extremely positive, until now. Everyone is whining again because it isn't "perfect." Well, guess what, it won't be for awhile, but the idea is that it will be.

People who where unhappy with VR (I wasn't one of them since VR 14 for me is just level 64 and all GOOD
MMOs have always increased the level cap when new content is released) will be even more unhappier with Champion System since it's an ever longer and endless progression where they will never be able to catch up. The fact it's disguised as passives and not "Hard Stone levels" will only fool people for a small while and they'll eventually rage about the fact the gaps between players with lots of CP and not many CP will never be closed.

I don't know where you're hearing that "people where positive about Champion System since the beginning", because it's just not true. Most people where cautious about it, a couple fanboys loved it, and a couple others like me, saw it for what it is: And endless grindfest that will discourage any casual/new players from the game.

Voltos wrote: »

Consider this, ZOS radically changed the nature of the endgame in ESO due to the communities feedback. Point being, keep the feedback constructive, because bashing ZOS or the people on the forums won't get you anywhere.

No they haven't, if they had, end game would actually be nice, there'd be more than 3 trials, one arena, and the same old Cyrodill fields to experience and people at end game wouldn't be quitting the game all the time because they get utterly bored and Champion system isn't going to change that.

As for keeping the feedback constructive, using bold statements like "True MMO gameplay" "Oh it will get better eventually, ya'll see" isn't constructive either, just wishful hoping.

TehMagnus

Kragorn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Voltos wrote: »

Costismaros wrote: »

2. Progression.
The rest are symptoms of progression.

If you dont like it. You should change of playing mmorpg for MOBA games.

#2! Thank you! Someone finally said it.

The whole point of creating new content for an MMO, is to keep the players interested and provide something to work towards. The system will not be perfect in the begining, but ZOS wants to keep people playing. If the system needs to be adjusted down the road, it will be. I think most people forget that an MMO is a living, breathing entity. ESO is just a toddler, learning how to walk for the first time.

Finally, a company has created a game for the "True MMO'er," (a.k.a. we throwbacks from the EQ era), and it's about time. Thank you, ZOS! Thank you for making a real MMO, not an FPS disguised as one.

You guys clearly know nothing about MMOs or progression.

I'm not sure the niche you play in is a good indicator of what MMOs are about either, considering the trivially small percentage of players in all MMOs that are the hardcore raiders in guilds like Hodor.

Fact is, no MMO released this century could ever survive on the small number of players bleeding-edge raiding attracts, raiders seriously over-estimate their importance when it comes to long-term sustainability of a large-scale MMO.

#1: Just because I play Hardcore end game PVE, I don't consider it to be everything there is to be about MMOs nor that a "True MMO" is only about end game (nor did I even imply it, you got to that conclusion by yourself). If experience has taught me anything is that for games to be successful they need to be balanced and all populations usually need each other (Poor but usually true example: raiders get items for casuals, casuals make potions, crafts, food for raiders). You cant have a game only for hardcore raiders, look at Wildstar.

#2: If there is a "niche" that is actually going to be advantaged by the Champion system, it's the Hardcore community, those couple of hundred hardcore players that are still in the game and that by then end of one week of Champion system will have farmed ~ 50 CP (at least), after that, good luck for any casual (aka the people complaining about VR14) to catch up with us till the effects of CP diminishing returns begin to actually be felt, which is at about 1800 CP

When you see the first QQ posts: "I can't get in raid cuz I don't have 500 CP", or "We both are VR14 using same skills & abilities but this guy is hitting for 3x as much damage as I do": think fondly of me.