Endgame PvE Magicka Sorcerer DPS 1.6.3 - Good Job Zenimax! On Par with Other Magicka DPS Classes.

halfbadger · February 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

Emma_Overload · February 2015

halfbadger wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

Say what??? Tell me all about it!

C0pp3rhead · February 2015

SirEwan wrote: »

As I'm sure fellow Raiders understand, I would rather not post my exact build and rotation as we aim to achieve certain goals in trials as soon as 1.6 hits the live server

Alcast wrote: »

Here for all of you infidels. If you cant believe it with that then so be it.

And for people who cant get it, this is from the tanking perspective.
http://youtu.be/B5bTogFe2c8

Enough already.

From all of you crying fake, I don't understand your objections.There are plenty of reasons that one could come up with to doubt what @SirEwan has posted. A good dose of skepticism is healthy. Among those reasons are that the video above is not from the sorcerer's viewpoint, and that the ability rotations/bars are not posted. However, I can tell you that there is a stamina-sorcerer (or a hybrid) using several class abilities in that video. Even on live, stamina sorcerers can rake in good dps (1k - 1.2k), and I have heard reports of lucky crit-laden bursts as high as 1.7k dps. Achieving good dps using the skills I am seeing in the video are doable and consistent with existing builds.

Then, there is this:

SirEwan wrote: »

Two of our Sorcerers.

For those of you who have never seen this before, this is the output from a macro associated with the FTC addon. This macro instantly posts your damage or healing done during a certain fight. If you look closely in @Alcast's video, you can see where they post their dps at the end. It's hard to make out, but it's there. By accusing these players of posting false numbers, you are essentially saying that they: (1.) typed these numbers before the battle, (2.) kept these numbers in their chat during the battle, then (3.) pressed 'enter' twice after the battle. The speed at which they post their numbers after the battle does not allow for after-the-fact alterations of their chat text. I doubt a falsification here, considering that their numbers accurately reflect the duration of the battle. You can see the numbers in the youtube video and time the fight yourself.

In order to falsify these numbers, both players would have to make very accurate guesses about how long the battle would last, then they would either have to do this fight over & over to make a video that matched their falsified numbers or hold dps until the fight lasted long enough to suit their needs. Hence they would have to make several attempts to get a good video. Watching the rate at which the boss' health drops during the video makes me doubt that they held dps. Several do-overs would be a difficult but not impossible feat, especially when dealing with skilled players and a boss that gets farmed several times a day.

We would like proof, i.e. a rotation and a video from the sorc's perspective. However, I think this is unlikely. For those of you who are unfamiliar with end-game PvE, the best guilds are very competitive, some would even say militant. I have listened to people on teamspeak fret over achieving good trial times on fun runs. Why? They were afraid their guildmates would accuse them of moonlighting for other less capable guilds. Sure this playstyle isn't for everyone, but for those players who thrive in a super-competitive environment, it's perfect.

As a final note, some on this forum will still think OP a troll. Let me remind them: Don't feed the trolls. If you think it's a troll, don't respond and let the thread get buried. If you must respond, be cordial; else, you're giving the troll exactly what it wants. C'mon folks, this is Internets 101. I shouldn't have to remind you of this FFS.

Gorthax · February 2015

Nihil wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

SirEwan wrote: »

So, many Sorcerers here are complaining about Endgame DPS and a guildmate of mine posted a screenshot of my DPS along with another Guildmate's DPS in another post complaining about Sorc DPS. In fact it was entitled "1.6.3 Sorc Magicka Builds Still Ruined!!!" which I must admit, made me chuckle.

Here's some results from a few tests on the Blood Spawn.
I realise this is a 50 Second fight at max, but it is evident this is sustanable on such fights i.e. The Serpent with my current rotation. (considering my ultimate regenerates every 60-100 seconds, which it does.)

The following results were also obtained with 0 PvP Buffs (Please remove PvP Buffs from PvE BTW Zenimax)

I will update the post as soon as I have additional information.

Test 1
Blood Spawn (45.2s) - 477,336 Total Damage (10556.6 DPS)
No Buffs No Ultimate
(I have achieved higher, just did one test to post here)

Test 2
Blood Spawn (37.9s) - 518,410 Total Damage (13687.0 DPS)
+ Combat Prayer and Aggressive Warhorn (Typical Sanctum Scenario)

Test 3
Blood Spawn (46.0s) - 553,028 Total Damage (12017.4 DPS)
+ Combat Prayer and Aggressive Warhorn (Typical Sanctum Scenario)

Test 4 (Full Fight)
Blood Spawn (49.8s) - 612,952 Total Damage (12312.5 DPS)
+ Combat Prayer and Aggressive Warhorn (Typical Sanctum Scenario)

Test 5 (Full Fight)
Blood Spawn (46.5s) - 615,459 Total Damage (13239.1 DPS)
+ Combat Prayer and Aggressive Warhorn (Typical Sanctum Scenario)

Initial Burst Damage (Max I Pinged is 22k)
Blood Spawn (13.6s) - 218,312 Total Damage (16006.5 DPS)

My statistics. No food buff / Power Surge

My Champion Points.

Two of our Sorcerers.

As I'm sure fellow Raiders understand, I would rather not post my exact build and rotation as we aim to achieve certain goals in trials as soon as 1.6 hits the live server and as far as I can see this will give us a great advantage over other teams initially.

As for my personal opinion on the state of Sorcerers right now, having played one since early Beta, I think Zenimax has done a great job balancing the class. Many more options are now available to us and it appears we are on par with other Magicka based DPS classes / builds.

Alcast wrote: »

Here for all of you infidels. If you cant believe it with that then so be it.

Hint: In most siutations your healer should support you with aggro horn and prayer.

And for people who cant get it, this is from the tanking perspective.
http://youtu.be/B5bTogFe2c8

I am not trying to troll or derail this discussion, I am however pointing out that the whole basis that the OP is claiming that sorcs are fixed is wrong. It clearly shows in his " My Champion Points" pic ... see above in his post ... that he used 40 pts in the Mage tree. In order to do that you would need 120 CP and not the original concept that this DPS was achieved with 70 CP.

In order to get that 40 CP in the Mage you would need to get 20 million experience under the current XP:CP conversion stated by ZoS. That represents months of leveling for the average player and therefor the entire premise is INVALID.

Sorry to state it that way, but if I am incorrect in this math ... please point out my mistake.

you are not. That was my question to him too, to do it in a LIVE scenario of 1.6 going to live servers. I.E. only 26 points roughly in each category to spend

The numbers he is posting don't sound all that unresaonable tho even if he does change the stats around. With the template build (so no martial knowledge / undaunted gear / crafted gear) I was able to pull off 8.2k dps with non pet builds and 9.2k ish pet build. 10k does sound very reasonable now (without ultimates) I would think. My test was also done with purely range skills (20m +) and ZoS is switching over (it appears) to melee range skills should be doing more damage then range skills, thus there are arguments to be made that DK's should deal more damage close range then we deal at long range. Although I do think Sorcs should have better/ more reliable close range skills to give us that option (as we also don't have as much synergy with stamina builds) this doesn't mean that we aren't going to be needed in raids as having range capabilities is always nice.

interesting, thanks for that info

Erock25 · February 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

Say what??? Tell me all about it!

Probably the 35% of HP total heal from unsummoning the clannfear which I think was left out of the patch notes. Combine that with the fact that with high magicka totals you can Rebate 15% of your total magicka pool when your pet dies/unsummons and that unsummoning a clannfear doesn't register ANY cooldowns at all and we have a nice heal.

Snit · February 2015

halfbadger wrote: »

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

Yeah - I just noticed that yesterday. I have no interest in pets, so I hadn't read the new clannfear's description closely. I have to wonder if that's intended.

@Emma_Eunjung Morph Grab Unstable Clannfear, and chain summon/ unsummon. It's a 35% heal each time.

Again, I wonder if that's intended. It seems an awfully odd use of a summon spell.

Emma_Overload · February 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

Say what??? Tell me all about it!

Probably the 35% of HP total heal from unsummoning the clannfear which I think was left out of the patch notes.

WOW. If that's really true, it's totally crazy that they left that out of the patch notes! I'm going on the PTS now...

ginoboehm · February 2015

xMovingTarget wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

The reason why guilds like hodor were running with 8dks was that they used the highest DPS build in the game which will still be melee ranged build in 1.6

We only have DKs!

I just wanted to point out that this is no easy thing to play this way the eruption can be ugly with 5 mele range guys like we run usually and you did it with 8 which is awesome. Would you say you have nothing against other classes joining even in 1.5?

Snit · February 2015

When doing max-DPS tests, we also need to consider health. If you stack nothing but magicka, you're going to have about 12k health before food. Your Burst Damage and Absorb Shields will be optimized. But how will you do in PvE? You can't spam damage shields in vet dungeons or trials.

Even putting 25 points into health, my template V14 Breton LA Sorc has 16.1k Health with purple food. I suspect that won't be enough, so he'll likely end up in 5/2 LA/HA, with some health enchants as well.

Erock25 · February 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

Say what??? Tell me all about it!

Probably the 35% of HP total heal from unsummoning the clannfear which I think was left out of the patch notes.

WOW. If that's really true, it's totally crazy that they left that out of the patch notes! I'm going on the PTS now...

Oh it is true. I'm afraid it won't be staying around though. Even with only 70CP you can reach some pretty impressive magicka totals which turns the clannfear into a free cast. As people progress in CP, it will be very feasible that some high hp / high magicka build will have a free to cast + usable while CC'd + 8k burst heal.

Nihil · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

When doing max-DPS tests, we also need to consider health. If you stack nothing but magicka, you're going to have about 12k health before food. Your Burst Damage and Absorb Shields will be optimized. But how will you do in PvE? You can't spam damage shields in vet dungeons or trials.

Even putting 25 points into health, my template V14 Breton LA Sorc has 16.1k Health with purple food. I suspect that won't be enough, so he'll likely end up in 5/2 LA/HA, with some health enchants as well.

My tests were all done with 19k hp, I agree with you that we shouldn't focus on min/max magicka for pve as the more we cast damage shields to keep us alive the more of a less of dps we will end up getting too.

florian.billeb16_ESO · February 2015

SirEwan wrote: »

[...]

Thx again for you post but the main problem is not the flat DPS but the difference of DPS between class, between magicka and stamina.

if 12-13'000k is good so sorcerer are good, if DK magicka or NB Stamina or DK stamina can do 17-20'000 DPS sorcerer are really weak.

So again my question for you are you special DK guild, what is the DPS for DK Magicka and Stamina ?

It's a easy question and this only question solve all problem.

IF your response is DK magika or stamina will do the same DPS or a little more, no problem, if DK stamina or any stamina build do 16'000-20'000 DPS (as I have link in my post, but maybe it was for 1.6.2 ), i can't understand why you pretend that sorcerer are fine... and if it's the case your post is really unfair to tell to ZOS that sorcerers are good enough.,

So please take the time to answer before you leave this topic.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Emma_Overload · February 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

Say what??? Tell me all about it!

Probably the 35% of HP total heal from unsummoning the clannfear which I think was left out of the patch notes.

WOW. If that's really true, it's totally crazy that they left that out of the patch notes! I'm going on the PTS now...

Oh it is true. I'm afraid it won't be staying around though. Even with only 70CP you can reach some pretty impressive magicka totals which turns the clannfear into a free cast. As people progress in CP, it will be very feasible that some high hp / high magicka build will have a free to cast + usable while CC'd + 8k burst heal.

Confirmed. I just used a healing Clannfear to (mostly) solo a Craglorn "anomaly". Made it all the way to the part where the giant air atronach appears. The problem is that if boss decides to ignore your little tank and come for you... you might die so fast you don't have time to unsummon anything, LOL!

I don't think this is really a great solution, but it's better than nothing. It just feels like ZoS loves to torture Sorcs with gimmicky abilities.

Snit · February 2015

The only DPS test that matters is going to take three months to do.

You can produce a parse with any results you want. We don't have a controlled test environment, and we do have testers with agendas and small sample sizes. None of it means a lot.

The real answer will take three months or more. The playerbase will decide whether sorc sustained DPS is not competitive, and the results will be communicated by the class makeup of successful trials groups. If ZOS promises to keep an eye on that and react appropriately, that would be the right approach.

cschwingeb14_ESO · February 2015

the OP is full of misinformation:

Saying you have 70 points used...no, because you're 40 in mage. It's 120 points "spent" to get those bonuses

Stam/health food and Surge/entropy are obviously active (or you're buff-bugged). There are only so many set bonuses you can have (martial x4, adroitness x2, Cyrodiil's light x2, tourogs x2 gives you 1 magicka bonus and 5 spell damage bonuses). Which you would need to hit that stat level.

Rebate makes all of the summons with on-death effects very problematic for balance. Given a combination of high magicka and spell cost reduction, that effect become free. Right now, getting to high levels of health, and magicka, and cost reduction will totally gimp you spell damage and slot availability. But at higher champ levels it won't.

I assume rebate will change, because on-death effect seem to be the way they are going... And they do help make pets more useful

Nihil · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

The only DPS test that matters is going to take three months to do.

You can produce a parse with any results you want. We don't have a controlled test environment, and we do have testers with agendas and small sample sizes. None of it means a lot.

The real answer will take three months or more. The playerbase will decide whether sorc sustained DPS is not competitive, and the results will be communicated by the class makeup of successful trials groups. If ZOS promises to keep an eye on that and react appropriately, that would be the right approach.

ok this definitely agree with. It did take a long time for the builds we have (and balancing of some builds) to happen, all we do have is preliminary tests which won't matter all to much in the long run. I did mine to try and show that not all is grim and to actually test a couple ideas I have.

rfennell_ESO · February 2015

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

Then, there is this:

SirEwan wrote: »

Two of our Sorcerers.

For those of you who have never seen this before, this is the output from a macro associated with the FTC addon. This macro instantly posts your damage or healing done during a certain fight. If you look closely in @Alcast's video, you can see where they post their dps at the end. It's hard to make out, but it's there. By accusing these players of posting false numbers, you are essentially saying that they: (1.) typed these numbers before the battle, (2.) kept these numbers in their chat during the battle, then (3.) pressed 'enter' twice after the battle. The speed at which they post their numbers after the battle does not allow for after-the-fact alterations of their chat text. I doubt a falsification here, considering that their numbers accurately reflect the duration of the battle. You can see the numbers in the youtube video and time the fight yourself.

In order to falsify these numbers, both players would have to make very accurate guesses about how long the battle would last, then they would either have to do this fight over & over to make a video that matched their falsified numbers or hold dps until the fight lasted long enough to suit their needs. Hence they would have to make several attempts to get a good video. Watching the rate at which the boss' health drops during the video makes me doubt that they held dps. Several do-overs would be a difficult but not impossible feat, especially when dealing with skilled players and a boss that gets farmed several times a day.

All you need is a calculator, which comes with windows lol.

Incidentally, you claim that their posted numbers matched the video. The ACTUAL fight takes 51 seconds to end. That's from the video... So the "parses" they linked don't even match up to that.

Btw... your other evidence notes of how it would be impossible for them to hold the numbers in chat or other nonsense. Say hello to Cntrl C and Cntrl V, which like a calculator are built into windows.

Is it fake? who knows and being that it's presented in a we won't tell you our build but sorcs are fine way.... who really cares?

Lied · February 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Every post I see from Sorcs has been so far "We suck in PvE, buff us!".

Someone posts a PVE build with good ranged dps mind you, and its now "We suck in PvP, buff us!"

Don't forget the "CRUSHING SHOCK NERF? ZOS HATES SORCS" followed by "Well sure you can be decent with non-sorc abilities, we're complaining about sorc abilities".

edited to be more mob sensitive.

Ezareth · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

@ginoboehm

You know Legendary Mage isn't playing atm, right? Besides that, if ZOS would balance the class around him, we'd have a serious problem.

It's not just Mage, to be honest.

If you take a look at it, you'll notice that well over 50% of the people creating PvP videos play Sorcerers, other 25% or so DKs & the rest are spread between Templar & NB.

Coincidence? Maybe, but I just thought I should point this out

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

SirEwan wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

I miss the LOL option.

Edit: Please go back and read all the complaints carefully to realize that most sorcs are talking about issues beyond pve dps. Thank you.

I am aware of the other issues. My post is in regards to only Sorcerer DPS. Nothing more.

Please clarify, your post and your subject is in regards to pve dps.

Your analysis does not equivocate healing, survivability, cc, utility, and pvp dps.

All those other aspect (with reflects, absorbs, inc-damage, cc, and non-static targets) are something entirely different. So your subject needs some clarification to recognize the limitations of its application.

I totally agree that the subject title needs to include PvE in it because this is simply not the case in pvp. Sorcs in pvp caster wise have been completely destroyed. There is no way to fight the other 3 classes with the changes to Sorcs now.

I hope you are not talking about the Sorcerer class, which has the highest burst damage & mobility available for magicka builds, as well as 16k+ (after nerf) dmg shield & perfect anti-melee tool (mines), as well as unblockable CC (Weakening Prison).

You can easily crit 18k+ with Entropy+CF proc, and follow it up with something like Meteor, while having the mobility of Streak/BoL & protection from Hardened Ward.

I don't see what the problem is. Perhaps there's some slight exaggeration & hyperboles going on here?

Posts like these are why we need the "Lol" button.

Fresh Template character in Full Legendary gear with Legendary enchants and VR10 Epic food in Cyrodiil, all points put into Magicka and 70 total champion points spent in magicka cost reduction, damage shield increases and magic damage increases. This is as good or better than what most people are going to have going live into patch.

Altmer Sorc
17755 Health
29219 Magicka,
11542 Stamina

Conjured ward in Cyrodiil is 10,592(including 33% bonus and champion point bonus) not 16K+
Crystal Fragments read 6776 damage. Entropy + CF proc brings it to something just over 10K and that crits for 15K not 18K and not "Easily" (You'll need to be subtracting spell resistance and crit resistance from that number as well...not to mention if you hit a shield you're only doing 10K instead of 15K.

If anyone is exaggerating or using hyperbole it is you.

BTW I went from being able to bolt escape 15 times using this exact template character in 1.6.2 to 9 times now.

I don't think ZoS realizes how broken Sorcs are in PvP right now.

I'll try to put this eloquently enough to not hurt any feelings or break forum rules: just because you haven't found the optimal build to attain good DPS & survivability as a Sorcerer, doesn't mean that the class is broken.

Take a look at the post @Gyudan posted above: 41218 magicka with 70CP, that's over twice what you have on your template, and enough to conjure up 16k+ dmg shields & 11509 CF procs.
Cast Entropy before that proc & you've got +20% more damage on it, 40% if the screenshot above was taken without Major Sorcery active.

In fact, on PTS Crystal Frags deal more damage than Snipe, and yet it's not good enough for some Sorcerers. Go figure...

Most of the good PvP videos are Sorcs because their gameplay is actually typically fun to watch due to their mobility. I think DKs and Templars are the mostly boring, with nightblade being fun to watch if they aren't boring gank/crit shot compilations from stealth.

How is the 41218 magicka someone received "twice" the 29219 magicka that I have on my template? It's actually only 41% more magicka and as I said, I'm using a template not a hand picked set of armor meant to maximize my magicka. I could have taken the mage mundus on the template to get something over 30K but unless you want to use a bunch of toggle abilities, going beyond that in PvP is unrealistic.

Your understanding of the math involved with his numbers is flawed as well.

11509 CF proc already includes a +20% bonus along with +4% High elf bonus and (I'm assuming) at least a 6.8% Champion point damage bonus. Add those up and his true base is 8690. The Might of the guild is going to increase *this* number by 20%. The Major sorcery buff won't deliver anywhere near 20% damage.

In reality with all those procs he's going to have a single hit for 14K, yet from a "DPS" perspective he'd do far more overall damage using Shadow + magelight instead of Mage, but Shadow allows you to bump your tooltips and magicka up so people are using that.

Regardless I was speaking of PvP not "DPS" and not everyone in PvP is going to (or want's to) be a togglemancer with no real utility.

Lionxoft · February 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

Say what??? Tell me all about it!

He's right. *One of* the best self heals in the game.

Update:

Spiced this shindig up a bit.

Lionxoft · February 2015

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

@ginoboehm

You know Legendary Mage isn't playing atm, right? Besides that, if ZOS would balance the class around him, we'd have a serious problem.

It's not just Mage, to be honest.

If you take a look at it, you'll notice that well over 50% of the people creating PvP videos play Sorcerers, other 25% or so DKs & the rest are spread between Templar & NB.

Coincidence? Maybe, but I just thought I should point this out

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

SirEwan wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

I miss the LOL option.

Edit: Please go back and read all the complaints carefully to realize that most sorcs are talking about issues beyond pve dps. Thank you.

I am aware of the other issues. My post is in regards to only Sorcerer DPS. Nothing more.

Please clarify, your post and your subject is in regards to pve dps.

Your analysis does not equivocate healing, survivability, cc, utility, and pvp dps.

All those other aspect (with reflects, absorbs, inc-damage, cc, and non-static targets) are something entirely different. So your subject needs some clarification to recognize the limitations of its application.

I totally agree that the subject title needs to include PvE in it because this is simply not the case in pvp. Sorcs in pvp caster wise have been completely destroyed. There is no way to fight the other 3 classes with the changes to Sorcs now.

I hope you are not talking about the Sorcerer class, which has the highest burst damage & mobility available for magicka builds, as well as 16k+ (after nerf) dmg shield & perfect anti-melee tool (mines), as well as unblockable CC (Weakening Prison).

You can easily crit 18k+ with Entropy+CF proc, and follow it up with something like Meteor, while having the mobility of Streak/BoL & protection from Hardened Ward.

I don't see what the problem is. Perhaps there's some slight exaggeration & hyperboles going on here?

Posts like these are why we need the "Lol" button.

Fresh Template character in Full Legendary gear with Legendary enchants and VR10 Epic food in Cyrodiil, all points put into Magicka and 70 total champion points spent in magicka cost reduction, damage shield increases and magic damage increases. This is as good or better than what most people are going to have going live into patch.

Altmer Sorc
17755 Health
29219 Magicka,
11542 Stamina

Conjured ward in Cyrodiil is 10,592(including 33% bonus and champion point bonus) not 16K+
Crystal Fragments read 6776 damage. Entropy + CF proc brings it to something just over 10K and that crits for 15K not 18K and not "Easily" (You'll need to be subtracting spell resistance and crit resistance from that number as well...not to mention if you hit a shield you're only doing 10K instead of 15K.

If anyone is exaggerating or using hyperbole it is you.

BTW I went from being able to bolt escape 15 times using this exact template character in 1.6.2 to 9 times now.

I don't think ZoS realizes how broken Sorcs are in PvP right now.

I'll try to put this eloquently enough to not hurt any feelings or break forum rules: just because you haven't found the optimal build to attain good DPS & survivability as a Sorcerer, doesn't mean that the class is broken.

Take a look at the post @Gyudan posted above: 41218 magicka with 70CP, that's over twice what you have on your template, and enough to conjure up 16k+ dmg shields & 11509 CF procs.
Cast Entropy before that proc & you've got +20% more damage on it, 40% if the screenshot above was taken without Major Sorcery active.

In fact, on PTS Crystal Frags deal more damage than Snipe, and yet it's not good enough for some Sorcerers. Go figure...

Most of the good PvP videos are Sorcs because their gameplay is actually typically fun to watch due to their mobility.

No one wants to watch someone running away for 10 minutes or stacking 3 shields over and over.

Seraphyel · February 2015

Lionxoft wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

@ginoboehm

You know Legendary Mage isn't playing atm, right? Besides that, if ZOS would balance the class around him, we'd have a serious problem.

It's not just Mage, to be honest.

If you take a look at it, you'll notice that well over 50% of the people creating PvP videos play Sorcerers, other 25% or so DKs & the rest are spread between Templar & NB.

Coincidence? Maybe, but I just thought I should point this out

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

SirEwan wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

I miss the LOL option.

Edit: Please go back and read all the complaints carefully to realize that most sorcs are talking about issues beyond pve dps. Thank you.

I am aware of the other issues. My post is in regards to only Sorcerer DPS. Nothing more.

Please clarify, your post and your subject is in regards to pve dps.

Your analysis does not equivocate healing, survivability, cc, utility, and pvp dps.

All those other aspect (with reflects, absorbs, inc-damage, cc, and non-static targets) are something entirely different. So your subject needs some clarification to recognize the limitations of its application.

I totally agree that the subject title needs to include PvE in it because this is simply not the case in pvp. Sorcs in pvp caster wise have been completely destroyed. There is no way to fight the other 3 classes with the changes to Sorcs now.

I hope you are not talking about the Sorcerer class, which has the highest burst damage & mobility available for magicka builds, as well as 16k+ (after nerf) dmg shield & perfect anti-melee tool (mines), as well as unblockable CC (Weakening Prison).

You can easily crit 18k+ with Entropy+CF proc, and follow it up with something like Meteor, while having the mobility of Streak/BoL & protection from Hardened Ward.

I don't see what the problem is. Perhaps there's some slight exaggeration & hyperboles going on here?

Posts like these are why we need the "Lol" button.

Fresh Template character in Full Legendary gear with Legendary enchants and VR10 Epic food in Cyrodiil, all points put into Magicka and 70 total champion points spent in magicka cost reduction, damage shield increases and magic damage increases. This is as good or better than what most people are going to have going live into patch.

Altmer Sorc
17755 Health
29219 Magicka,
11542 Stamina

Conjured ward in Cyrodiil is 10,592(including 33% bonus and champion point bonus) not 16K+
Crystal Fragments read 6776 damage. Entropy + CF proc brings it to something just over 10K and that crits for 15K not 18K and not "Easily" (You'll need to be subtracting spell resistance and crit resistance from that number as well...not to mention if you hit a shield you're only doing 10K instead of 15K.

If anyone is exaggerating or using hyperbole it is you.

BTW I went from being able to bolt escape 15 times using this exact template character in 1.6.2 to 9 times now.

I don't think ZoS realizes how broken Sorcs are in PvP right now.

I'll try to put this eloquently enough to not hurt any feelings or break forum rules: just because you haven't found the optimal build to attain good DPS & survivability as a Sorcerer, doesn't mean that the class is broken.

Take a look at the post @Gyudan posted above: 41218 magicka with 70CP, that's over twice what you have on your template, and enough to conjure up 16k+ dmg shields & 11509 CF procs.
Cast Entropy before that proc & you've got +20% more damage on it, 40% if the screenshot above was taken without Major Sorcery active.

In fact, on PTS Crystal Frags deal more damage than Snipe, and yet it's not good enough for some Sorcerers. Go figure...

Most of the good PvP videos are Sorcs because their gameplay is actually typically fun to watch due to their mobility.

No one wants to watch someone running away for 10 minutes or stacking 3 shields over and over.

He is right. I haven't found any good PvP videos made by DKs or Templars that use Staffs for example. Don't know why. Some NBs and Sorcs, but from the other two... lacking.

If anybody got good videos, please let me know.

cracker81 · February 2015

I feel like most ppl that are complaining about sorcer heals, pve dps and pvp are border line ***. I am sorry when you have videos of sorcs killing 3 ppl at once in pvp without emperor. Then another in pve doing 13.5k dps and a healer sorc in the top timed run in the world in DSA. What does that tell you the QQer? Still not getting it? It is ok ppl in the 1700s thought the world was flat and some ppl still think we did not land on the moon. I guess no mattar What I say will always believe the sorc needs a buff. It is ok..... /pat

cracker81 · February 2015

Time to give out badges of Awesome. Lol

cracker81 · February 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

I boosted my character a bit and got to this:

- solo (no buffs from allies)
- basic 70 CPs used (24/23/23)
- no potions used

The tooltip damage of a procced (35%) Crystal Fragments is 11509.

It could go a bit higher, I'm not using the most optimal gear and some skills aren't fully morphed.

edit: I had forgotten to use food x)

Finally someone actually trying to get better, instead of blaming someone else. Ty good job

florian.billeb16_ESO · February 2015

cracker81 wrote: »

I feel like most ppl that are complaining about sorcer heals, pve dps and pvp are border line ***. I am sorry when you have videos of sorcs killing 3 ppl at once in pvp without emperor. Then another in pve doing 13.5k dps and a healer sorc in the top timed run in the world in DSA. What does that tell you the QQer? /pat

The question is a little different:
in 1.5. what is the best class for tank / heal / DPS / DPS for AOE
tank: templar = DK > NB > Sorcerer
Heal: Templar > sorcerer > NB = DK
DPS: DK > NB > Sorcerer > Templar
DPS AOE: DK > Templar > NB = Sorcerer

it's possible discuss the point here, but i think it's a good picture of the 1.5. for PVE

now in 1.6.
Tank: it will be probably the same, sorcerer will not be in the first 2 places
Heal: Templar > DK > NB > sorcerer.
why: sorcerer has no more the bonus for critical surge, so second best healer will be DK with healing spring

DPS: Good question, but what I have seen stamina build will be much bether in general, but with spell sorcerer can't be competitif with a stamina build in comparison with other class, because critical surge has change and sorcerer has just no special stamina spell.
DPS AOE: probably the same as in 1.5. or sorcerer will have the third place.

So, sorcerer are not enough good tank, they were good healer with healing spring in 1.5. but it's no more the case.

So if I resume, sorcerer are not good in tank no good in healing, so the only thing is the DPS, if sorcerer are not one of the best 2 classes for DPS, sorcerers have no utility in the game.

So again the question is maybe 13'500 DPS is good but if stamina build can reach 15-20000 what is the utility of sorcerer...
worst tank, worst healer, not good for AOE DPS... the last question have sorcerers enough DPS to be in a good position or not ? difficult to say, but I think all stamina build with 2h or 2 weapons will be bether.
see my link: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

manny254 · February 2015

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

cracker81 wrote: »

I feel like most ppl that are complaining about sorcer heals, pve dps and pvp are border line ***. I am sorry when you have videos of sorcs killing 3 ppl at once in pvp without emperor. Then another in pve doing 13.5k dps and a healer sorc in the top timed run in the world in DSA. What does that tell you the QQer? /pat

The question is a little different:
in 1.5. what is the best class for tank / heal / DPS / DPS for AOE
tank: templar = DK > NB > Sorcerer
Heal: Templar > sorcerer > NB = DK
DPS: DK > NB > Sorcerer > Templar
DPS AOE: DK > Templar > NB = Sorcerer

it's possible discuss the point here, but i think it's a good picture of the 1.5. for PVE

now in 1.6.
Tank: it will be probably the same, sorcerer will not be in the first 2 places
Heal: Templar > DK > NB > sorcerer.
why: sorcerer has no more the bonus for critical surge, so second best healer will be DK with healing spring

DPS: Good question, but what I have seen stamina build will be much bether in general, but with spell sorcerer can't be competitif with a stamina build in comparison with other class, because critical surge has change and sorcerer has just no special stamina spell.
DPS AOE: probably the same as in 1.5. or sorcerer will have the third place.

So, sorcerer are not enough good tank, they were good healer with healing spring in 1.5. but it's no more the case.

So if I resume, sorcerer are not good in tank no good in healing, so the only thing is the DPS, if sorcerer are not one of the best 2 classes for DPS, sorcerers have no utility in the game.

So again the question is maybe 13'500 DPS is good but if stamina build can reach 15-20000 what is the utility of sorcerer...
worst tank, worst healer, not good for AOE DPS... the last question have sorcerers enough DPS to be in a good position or not ? difficult to say, but I think all stamina build with 2h or 2 weapons will be bether.
see my link: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You can not compare stam to magic in 1.6. Stam is always higher regardless of class. From what I have seen they are the best magic dps. Also the complaint about tanking is honestly silly. Tanking in this game is not hard, any class can tank well.

florian.billeb16_ESO · February 2015

Every class can tank, but for some class it's more easy, because they have some passive or specific spell or self-heal.

You have right for almost every dungeon sorcerer can tank, but try to do DSA arena in hardmode with a sorcerer tank... and you will see the difference.

For your second point, maybe it's normal that close combat class (stamina build) do a little more damage, but if the case that stamina build will do 20-50 % more damage, what is the utility in raid for sorcerer. they will not be taken as tank, or heal, or DPS, even if they are the most powerfull magicka class.

People will just take class that do the max DPS, so if sorcerer are not good enough, why you want to take a sorcerer when an other class can do 30- 50 % more damage ? and maybe 609 100 % for AOE DPS

By the way... negation has no more utility by the way in most raid for 1.6.

Tankqull · February 2015

halfbadger wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

doubt that 1.5sec CT + a bit over 1sec summon delay makes the a heal a once per fight heal (at leas t in pvp as no one with half a brain cell will let you cast it as summoning the pet has an extreamly obvious animation)

ToRelax · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ancile wrote: »

You got high dps numbers on pve dumb mobs? So what?

It does not add anything to the discussion of sorc survivability, pvp dps, and broken mechanics. I can print some amazing numbers too if you give me enough non-reactive training dummies.

Agreed. I can do 9000 DPS against dumb Mammoths with my Stamina build Sorc and no crit pots, ultimates or gimmicks.... but that proves nothing when I can still get murdered by a pack of wasps in Craglorn!

If ZoS won't remove the infamous COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals, they need to give us some other means for healing ourselves in the middle of intense combat.

Sorcs have the best self heal in the game on the pts right now.

doubt that 1.5sec CT + a bit over 1sec summon delay makes the a heal a once per fight heal (at leas t in pvp as no one with half a brain cell will let you cast it as summoning the pet has an extreamly obvious animation)

Unstable Familiar has no Cast time and believe me, with clever play you can manage summoning a Twilight, if you want to, too.