calling all Spellswords: 2-handed/DW weapons boost my spell power 16% past staves

glak

Equinox wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

I get where you are coming from, but as long as staves have skills on them like Impulse, which only work in melee range, the staff can't be considered to be a ranged only weapon. Therefore, I don't think people should be penalised for equipping them and someone deciding that they are ranged. Weapons should be comparable unless they really split melee/ranged weapon or class skills down the line accurately.

I feel the same way for melee weapons in live atm... especially in PvP. I started out with 2hand/ sword and board but gradually went over to shield/destro because why? Tagging. And trying out 1.6 in PvE, I have to tag a group from far away or even in PvP to get my ulti up if I wanna try taking out a harder group of mobs.

The game is just unbalanced where ever you look, esp with reflective nerf. Now it's either spam reflect and pull back to get ur mp back, or just die from ranged skills if you dont stack shields if you like playing front lines [unless someone else has found a way to tank lol].

Close-range skills should do more damage, while farther range should do less. Less threat to you = less damage you should do imo. But eh... we'll see how it works out. (Cast time should be also put into consideration... but with block canceling eh? idk)

Sorry if this post was confusing.

Keep a staff on swap for ult tagging, utilities, and h/dots.

Equinox

glak wrote: »

Keep a staff on swap for ult tagging, utilities, and h/dots.

That's the problem, should I be limited in that way? That's what alot of people are complaining about, but you have to give some to get some xD. [That's what I've had to do btw lol]

I agree that s+b should be less damage to be more defensive. It's a shield, duh =P. The stam burn for it in 1.6 is crazy though in both PvE and PvP

On another note, I use to tank with shield/destro and swapping to apply DoT's and buffs hurt so much I had to switch to shield/shield heh...

Dracane

It's so weird. There is NO MMO besides ESO, that I have played, where Melee's are supposed to deal the highest damage.

In each of these games, are mage's supposed to be the highest damage dealer. They are very squishy, but deal a lot of damage. Why is this different in ESO ? Mage's should always deal the highest damage. This is only my opinion, but that's just how I know it from other games.

Pmarsico9

Dracane wrote: »

It's so weird. There is NO MMO besides ESO, that I have played, where Melee's are supposed to deal the highest damage.

In each of these games, are mage's supposed to be the highest damage dealer. They are very squishy, but deal a lot of damage. Why is this different in ESO ? Mage's should always deal the highest damage. This is only my opinion, but that's just how I know it from other games.

WoW, Rift, among many others always had melee as top dog until relatively recently. Due to uptime, melee, when balanced in a 100% uptime environment should always parse higher than ranged. That is completely unrelated to this topic. This is a design issue. They never needed a stat conversion. They simply needed class skill morphs to scale off either magicka or stamina. What they have done is created a confusing nightmare of math.

Xeniph

Dracane wrote: »

It's so weird. There is NO MMO besides ESO, that I have played, where Melee's are supposed to deal the highest damage.

In each of these games, are mage's supposed to be the highest damage dealer. They are very squishy, but deal a lot of damage. Why is this different in ESO ? Mage's should always deal the highest damage. This is only my opinion, but that's just how I know it from other games.

WoW, Rift, EQ2, SWG, DAoC, AC2, UO, DDO, SWTOR, WAR. Just to name a few that I have played in my 18 years of MMO gaming.

In all of these, melee abilities always have a higer base and higher max potential than ranged. Regardless of whether it is a magic or physical ability. It's simply due to the uptime advantage ranged abilities have.

It's pretty simple, unlike all the games listed above, atleast ESO gives you the option to use whatever weapon you want. Thus allowing you to take advantage of this in some way. But it forces you to either play it to it's full intended potential (IE..Stamina) Or Hybridize yourself in some way.

In NO way should anyone with a ranged weapon, do the same damage as someone with melee. Otherwise there would be NO reason to go melee.

Now, if everyone could Light/Heavy attack from range with ALL weapons, and all abilities had a max range of 28m. Well then, you would have a good foundation for an argument.

* Forgot to mention, Caster classes have NEVER been the highest burst damage dealers in any of these games, that spot has always been held by your Ambushing rogue archetype. Except ESO, lol (nobody likes the one shot, stun locking rogue)

glak

Equinox wrote: »

glak wrote: »

Keep a staff on swap for ult tagging, utilities, and h/dots.

That's the problem, should I be limited in that way? That's what alot of people are complaining about, but you have to give some to get some xD. [That's what I've had to do btw lol]

I agree that s+b should be less damage to be more defensive. It's a shield, duh =P. The stam burn for it in 1.6 is crazy though in both PvE and PvP

On another note, I use to tank with shield/destro and swapping to apply DoT's and buffs hurt so much I had to switch to shield/shield heh...

If all your utilities and h/dots are class and world based and regeneration isn't a problem for you, a bow would also work to keep your ult regen up. That may bring unnecessary player disorientation upon enemies in PvP

Wow, this strategy is screaming FOTM more and more .. dw/bow dealing magic damage and spamming healing ritual on dw. If they don't fix it before 1.6 goes live, we could be looking at 6 months of this folly in Cyrodiil.

Khivas_Carrick

Dracane wrote: »

It's so weird. There is NO MMO besides ESO, that I have played, where Melee's are supposed to deal the highest damage.

In each of these games, are mage's supposed to be the highest damage dealer. They are very squishy, but deal a lot of damage. Why is this different in ESO ? Mage's should always deal the highest damage. This is only my opinion, but that's just how I know it from other games.

Swtor wasn't like that, and a majority of the time WoW has been alive cloth wearers had both best offense and easily third or second best defense.

Frikin ice mages and warlocks.

But yea it's more open here. Yea you might technically be a glass cannon bit you could just as early pop a single shield and steamroll a ***.

Tankqull

Xeniph wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It's so weird. There is NO MMO besides ESO, that I have played, where Melee's are supposed to deal the highest damage.

In each of these games, are mage's supposed to be the highest damage dealer. They are very squishy, but deal a lot of damage. Why is this different in ESO ? Mage's should always deal the highest damage. This is only my opinion, but that's just how I know it from other games.

WoW, Rift, EQ2, SWG, DAoC, AC2, UO, DDO, SWTOR, WAR. Just to name a few that I have played in my 18 years of MMO gaming.

In all of these, melee abilities always have a higer base and higher max potential than ranged. Regardless of whether it is a magic or physical ability. It's simply due to the uptime advantage ranged abilities have.

It's pretty simple, unlike all the games listed above, atleast ESO gives you the option to use whatever weapon you want. Thus allowing you to take advantage of this in some way. But it forces you to either play it to it's full intended potential (IE..Stamina) Or Hybridize yourself in some way.

In NO way should anyone with a ranged weapon, do the same damage as someone with melee. Otherwise there would be NO reason to go melee.

Now, if everyone could Light/Heavy attack from range with ALL weapons, and all abilities had a max range of 28m. Well then, you would have a good foundation for an argument.

* Forgot to mention, Caster classes have NEVER been the highest burst damage dealers in any of these games, that spot has always been held by your Ambushing rogue archetype. Except ESO, lol (nobody likes the one shot, stun locking rogue)

in DAoC caster had by far the highest dps and burst BUT that was equalized by the rupt mechanic and only a handfull of instants over 40 classes existed and if they were absolutly crappy in the dmg compartment[beside the prenerf warlock bubbles ].

Alphashado

If you want to debate the schematics of melee/casting DPS and which one should or should not be higher, that is fine. But the issue at hand is that strapping a sword or mace to your back increases the power of your spells.

Which is obviously a design flaw.
If you want a Battle Mage in the game, then ask ZoS to introduce skills or Champion Constellations to reflect that type of playstyle so that it's optional. Making every caster in the game more powerful with a 2H sword regardless of build is just silly. Making spell casters switch to an inferior weapon in order to regen magicka is just silly.

This is no different than 90% of the DPS builds early in the game requiring Resto Staves. It's just as silly.

pilotfish

I was surprised to notice that Agility, the +% weapon power passive when wearing 5 or more medium armor will contribute to spell potency also. I wonder if it is intended considering the recovery and cost reduction trade off for wearing less light armor.

xMovingTarget

We probably going to do more trial testing next week when we get our EU chars on PTS again. I will do the 2H test on trial bosses and provide serious feedback.

Staff setup will be staff and force pulse.

2H setup will be 2H and Molten Whip.

I need to swap these spells coz of the obvious. I hope i can use it on the Serpent to test. We will see.

glak

xMovingTarget wrote: »

We probably going to do more trial testing next week when we get our EU chars on PTS again. I will do the 2H test on trial bosses and provide serious feedback.

Staff setup will be staff and force pulse.

2H setup will be 2H and Molten Whip.

I need to swap these spells coz of the obvious. I hope i can use it on the Serpent to test. We will see.

Swapping just Molten Whip? Cool beans.

Agreed that 2H would offer a clean test given that it would change just one item to show what is broken.

If they don't manage to remove Toppling Charge's "stop the world" global cool down, 2H would give a more easily attainable charge without a hint of GCD.

If someone wants to push the envelope a tiny bit further, DW yields 25 more spell power on than 2H w/ same level and upgrade and allows for yet another item set piece. The passives on both weapon skill lines don't seem to affect spell power, at least.

Pmarsico9

Alphashado wrote: »

If you want to debate the schematics of melee/casting DPS and which one should or should not be higher, that is fine. But the issue at hand is that strapping a sword or mace to your back increases the power of your spells.

Which is obviously a design flaw.
If you want a Battle Mage in the game, then ask ZoS to introduce skills or Champion Constellations to reflect that type of playstyle so that it's optional. Making every caster in the game more powerful with a 2H sword regardless of build is just silly. Making spell casters switch to an inferior weapon in order to regen magicka is just silly.

This is no different than 90% of the DPS builds early in the game requiring Resto Staves. It's just as silly.

Basically, in a nut shell, melee doesn't do enough damage on live or the PTS if they use weapon abilities (staves give up potential, stamina based Active loadout are too low) so playing ranged wielding a two hander, dual wielding, or wearing a bow is relegating weapons to pure stat sticks in favor of pure class skill loadouts to do the most potential damage.

This undeniably garbage design.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Here's some higher logic for you:

Base ability: Puncturing strikes, costs magicka, scales off magicka, spell damage, and spel, critical strike.

Morph 1: Puncturing Sweep: same as above.
Morph 2: Biting Jabs: Scales off stamina, weapon damage, and weapon critical and costs stamina.

Weapon abilities aside from staves: cost stamina, scale off stamina, weapon damage, and weapon critical strike.

Staves do above but off magicka, spell damage, and spelL critical strike.

The argument of melee vs. Ranged belongs elsewhere.

It's this simple and applies to all upcoming class abilities with dual morphs that change resource that they draw from. A conversion of weapon damage and stamina to spell damage is asinine and will confuse the player base.

Pmarsico9

pilotfish wrote: »

I was surprised to notice that Agility, the +% weapon power passive when wearing 5 or more medium armor will contribute to spell potency also. I wonder if it is intended considering the recovery and cost reduction trade off for wearing less light armor.

Again, unnecessary, stupid, and poorly thought out. Implementation is unnecessarily complex in the name of supporting hybrid spell blade builds that shoulld be supported simply by providing stamina morphs to class skills that are applicable. Wtf is so hard here........

Xeniph

As I have stated before, It's not a design flaw. It's in place for those melee magicka spells.

So those DK's, Templars and NB's that have class melee abilities that scale off magicka benefit for choosing to stay in melee range.

Otherwise their dps would be lower than ranged players, due to mechanics.

It's a choice people, you want higher burst and less sustain? Feel free to cast a ranged class skill with a 2h equipped. You will have to switch weapons to regen magicka at range. It's the same exact choice Stamina users have, since the bow has the exact same dps as staves.

* But of coarse this is not the real gripe folks are having. It's Destro users wanting the same spellpower as the melee weapon users get for weapon damage.

glak

Xeniph wrote: »

As I have stated before, It's not a design flaw. It's in place for those melee magicka spells.

So those DK's, Templars and NB's that have class melee abilities that scale off magicka benefit for choosing to stay in melee range.

Otherwise their dps would be lower than ranged players, due to mechanics.

It's a choice people, you want higher burst and less sustain? Feel free to cast a ranged class skill with a 2h equipped. You will have to switch weapons to regen magicka at range. It's the same exact choice Stamina users have, since the bow has the exact same dps as staves.

* But of course this is not the real gripe folks are having. It's Destro users wanting the same spellpower as the melee weapon users get for weapon damage.

The spellsword strategy is starting to make some sense.
This topic is class/world Vs. destro all over again, this time on spell power instead of magicka regen. Force Shock nerf just tipped the scales back to class/world.

Melee spell casters have to worry about % stamina drain > % magicka drain.
If staying in melee range, stamina drained on block and bash needs to be recovered. Fortunately, this strategy gives the player that stamina regen on heavy attack.

Domander

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

pilotfish wrote: »

I was surprised to notice that Agility, the +% weapon power passive when wearing 5 or more medium armor will contribute to spell potency also. I wonder if it is intended considering the recovery and cost reduction trade off for wearing less light armor.

Again, unnecessary, stupid, and poorly thought out. Implementation is unnecessarily complex in the name of supporting hybrid spell blade builds that shoulld be supported simply by providing stamina morphs to class skills that are applicable. Wtf is so hard here........

I disagree, I think that's kind of neat, especially if you're stuck with an ability that scales off magicka while using mostly stamina.

Alphashado

Xeniph wrote: »

As I have stated before, It's not a design flaw. It's in place for those melee magicka spells.

So those DK's, Templars and NB's that have class melee abilities that scale off magicka benefit for choosing to stay in melee range.

Otherwise their dps would be lower than ranged players, due to mechanics.

It's a choice people, you want higher burst and less sustain? Feel free to cast a ranged class skill with a 2h equipped. You will have to switch weapons to regen magicka at range. It's the same exact choice Stamina users have, since the bow has the exact same dps as staves.

* But of coarse this is not the real gripe folks are having. It's Destro users wanting the same spellpower as the melee weapon users get for weapon damage.

Are you trying to suggest that this was designed intentionally so that a Templar spamming Puncturing Sweeps (because jabs is stamina in 1.6) can swing a heavy attack with a 2H sword in order to regen stamina so he can dodge more? What good is dodging when you are out of magicka and can't even cast Puncturing Sweep anymore? But now that magicka built Templar can swing his useless 2H at the boss in order to regen stamina in order to keep dodging while he's doing next to zero damage...

And if you are suggesting that this was designed intentionally so that a melee ranged casting build can have more burst damage w/o any regen, then why even call it a sword? Why not just call it a backpack?

I'm sorry. I see where you are coming from, but I just think it's a stretch. It reminds me of a Hunter's melee weapon in WoW. Never, ever used for anything other than a stat stick. But at least the weapon matched the class.

Now if you wanted to introduce wands or totems or some other kind of magical hand held item that would increase magicka burst damage, that would make more sense. Even if you had specially crafted magical swords or daggers that were designed to enhance burst damage w/o facilitating regen, that would make more sense.

But for any 2H weapon of any make, model, quality, or rarity to always increase spell damage by default is just silly.

glak

Alphashado wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

As I have stated before, It's not a design flaw. It's in place for those melee magicka spells.

So those DK's, Templars and NB's that have class melee abilities that scale off magicka benefit for choosing to stay in melee range.

Otherwise their dps would be lower than ranged players, due to mechanics.

It's a choice people, you want higher burst and less sustain? Feel free to cast a ranged class skill with a 2h equipped. You will have to switch weapons to regen magicka at range. It's the same exact choice Stamina users have, since the bow has the exact same dps as staves.

* But of coarse this is not the real gripe folks are having. It's Destro users wanting the same spellpower as the melee weapon users get for weapon damage.

Are you trying to suggest that this was designed intentionally so that a Templar spamming Puncturing Sweeps (because jabs is stamina in 1.6) can swing a heavy attack with a 2H sword in order to regen stamina so he can dodge more? What good is dodging when you are out of magicka and can't even cast Puncturing Sweep anymore? But now that magicka built Templar can swing his useless 2H at the boss in order to regen stamina in order to keep dodging while he's doing next to zero damage...

And if you are suggesting that this was designed intentionally so that a melee ranged casting build can have more burst damage w/o any regen, then why even call it a sword? Why not just call it a backpack?

I'm sorry. I see where you are coming from, but I just think it's a stretch. It reminds me of a Hunter's melee weapon in WoW. Never, ever used for anything other than a stat stick. But at least the weapon matched the class.

Now if you wanted to introduce wands or totems or some other kind of magical hand held item that would increase magicka burst damage, that would make more sense. Even if you had specially crafted magical swords or daggers that were designed to enhance burst damage w/o facilitating regen, that would make more sense.

But for any 2H weapon of any make, model, quality, or rarity to always increase spell damage by default is just silly.

Note to self: be wary of a woven-belt, epaulet, & -gloved Templar in socks holding a monstrous, pointy, metal wand in my direction.

That does sound rather silly. Expect a Knight of Ni! to pop out at any moment from behind a shrubbery and shove me beneath the world in free fall.

Exstazik

we are coming

heng14rwb17_ESO

Exstazik wrote: »

we are coming

Lol
Lmao

Xeniph

Alphashado wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

As I have stated before, It's not a design flaw. It's in place for those melee magicka spells.

So those DK's, Templars and NB's that have class melee abilities that scale off magicka benefit for choosing to stay in melee range.

Otherwise their dps would be lower than ranged players, due to mechanics.

It's a choice people, you want higher burst and less sustain? Feel free to cast a ranged class skill with a 2h equipped. You will have to switch weapons to regen magicka at range. It's the same exact choice Stamina users have, since the bow has the exact same dps as staves.

* But of coarse this is not the real gripe folks are having. It's Destro users wanting the same spellpower as the melee weapon users get for weapon damage.

Are you trying to suggest that this was designed intentionally so that a Templar spamming Puncturing Sweeps (because jabs is stamina in 1.6) can swing a heavy attack with a 2H sword in order to regen stamina so he can dodge more? What good is dodging when you are out of magicka and can't even cast Puncturing Sweep anymore? But now that magicka built Templar can swing his useless 2H at the boss in order to regen stamina in order to keep dodging while he's doing next to zero damage...

And if you are suggesting that this was designed intentionally so that a melee ranged casting build can have more burst damage w/o any regen, then why even call it a sword? Why not just call it a backpack?

I'm sorry. I see where you are coming from, but I just think it's a stretch. It reminds me of a Hunter's melee weapon in WoW. Never, ever used for anything other than a stat stick. But at least the weapon matched the class.

Now if you wanted to introduce wands or totems or some other kind of magical hand held item that would increase magicka burst damage, that would make more sense. Even if you had specially crafted magical swords or daggers that were designed to enhance burst damage w/o facilitating regen, that would make more sense.

But for any 2H weapon of any make, model, quality, or rarity to always increase spell damage by default is just silly.

No, I'm suggesting that it's designed so that someone who chooses to wield a melee weapon, can boost their spell damage to remain competitive with weapon power users. While using magicka melee abilities.

The regen is something everyone else is worried about. Any good magicka speced DK/Temp/NB will have a resto on the off bar for heals/regen anyway. Melee have few if any regen issues (Even Magicka speced) because in pve their DPS uptime is limited anyway. It really is simple if you all would think about it.

Everyone is just trying to complicate the issue.

F7sus4

Xeniph wrote: »

So those DK's, Templars and NB's that have class melee abilities that scale off magicka benefit for choosing to stay in melee range. Otherwise their dps would be lower than ranged players, due to mechanics.

Due to mechanics, the real problem is the unfortunate state of dedicated Magicka builds now. Specifically, Nightblades.

Gyudan

It makes perfect sense.

Everybody knows the Sword of Magnus.


The Axe of Worms.


Hevnoraak's Shield


Miraak's Warhammer


The Battleaxe of Melka

glak

Alphashado wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

The same spell on the same critter did roughly 100 more damage with the 2H sword equipped then it did with a destruction staff equipped. These numbers would be greatly modified with gear/food etc, but this is about as simple and basic of a comparison you can ask for and spells are clearly doing more damage while holding a sword.

This isn't taking into account light/heavy attack weaving or any other aspect of combat, but rather a straight up bare bones comparison between the two.

I absolutely get it, and sure it doesn't make sense, however in my opinion the second part is what is actually most important. Maybe that's just me, but the only thing that really interests me is how it works in actual gameplay i.e. what does more DPS in a fight.

Either way, one solution is to have a base value say 1000 damage on all weapons, then have an extra modifier where a 2H sword gives +300 to weapon damage and a staff gives +200 spell damage. Maybe?

I dunno. I just really want to know if it's actually better when playing the game, then I'd be worried.

Well, what you are wondering only applies if you are talking about long, sustained PvE fights where you are going to run out of resources and have to use light/heavy attacks to avoid running out. ie-sustained DPS.

However, that is not an issue in shorter fights, questing, zone bosses, map objectives, dolmen, and most importantly, PvP, where burst damage is king.

If it goes live this way, every spell caster and their mother in Cyrodiil is going to be using a 2H weapon. Including healers. Which is just silly.

If destro staff needs an overall buff because of Update 1.6, then I suggest making destro staff spell/weapon power be on par with 2H. That would fix this issue as a consequence. Resto staff is a defensive weapon but not worried if it is buffed this way, too, IMHO.

NotSo

Here's another idea:
1. put down a couple Illustrious Healing spells
2. immediately weapon swap to dual wield (it grants more damage than 2h)
3. monitor if the new boost in weapon damage also changes your aoe heals output

glak

NotSo wrote: »

Here's another idea:
1. put down a couple Illustrious Healing spells
2. immediately weapon swap to dual wield (it grants more damage than 2h)
3. monitor if the new boost in weapon damage also changes your aoe heals output

This site seems to lack BBCode table support.

Illustrious Healing
weapon normal crit
2H weapon after swapping
1018 1507
resto staff (includes all restoration staff passives, full health)
993 1518

Rushed Ceremony
weapon normal crit
2H weapon after swapping
6198 9178
resto staff (includes all restoration staff passives, full health)
5844 8654

Healing Ritual
weapon normal crit
2H weapon
self (+30%): 8446 12507
players: 6979 9025
resto staff (includes all restoration staff passives, full health)
self (+30%) 7840 11610
players: 6047 8377

Armitas

So it gets even more broken. This is what I see happening.

People in magicka builds, using 2 handers for dps, while quaffing weapon power pots, because their spell power pots are useless, while weapon power pots will boost the damage on their 2 hander weaving. Flawless dawnbreaker will come back into slot to help the 2 hander weaving as well.

"They be hatin'... cause I be casting.. with a 2hander and warrior pots."

Derra

Armitas wrote: »

So it gets even more broken. This is what I see happening.

People in magicka builds, using 2 handers for dps, while quaffing weapon power pots, because their spell power pots are useless, while weapon power pots will boost the damage on their 2 hander weaving. Flawless dawnbreaker will come back into slot to help the 2 hander weaving as well.

"They be hatin'... cause I be casting.. with a 2hander and warrior pots."

This one would have been a legitimate lol from me

rfennell_ESO

Wouldn't the staff, with lower damage stats still outpace trying to use a 2 hander due to the damage of light and heavy attacks being magicka based for a caster?