calling all Spellswords: 2-handed/DW weapons boost my spell power 16% past staves

glak

My level vr14 green 2-handed weapons have 1220 power.
My level vr14 green destro and resto staves have 1037 power.
This power difference yields a 6% increase to healing output when using a 2-handed weapon.

Is this spell power difference intentional between these weapon types?

If so, is a Templar with 2-handed weapon the new healing-Templar paradigm after this effective 79% boost to Healing Ritual, 6% boost to Rushed Ceremony, and Templar nerf to Restoration Master?

Stinkur wrote: »

Nothing in the passives would really benefit templar spells, it mostly all effecting destro spells. Or am I missing something? Destructive Reach looks nice, have used it on my sorc and I like it.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.
If class/world damage spell spam, then 2 1-handers w/ torugs pact on both for impact.
If heavy attack spam, then Destro Staff.

Now combine them with weapon swap!
Cast your Templar DoT spells in a way that they will all hit at once, then after they hit, swap and free DPS/regen with your Destro Staff. If you need to heal or shield, keep those on the Destro Staff swap.

Someone remarked on my Templar magicka DPS being kinda insane. That's my secret. DW spell power nerf incoming, someday anyways!

EDIT: 1.5 did not work this way. Damage stat of a weapon does not affect spell power in 1.5 but it does in 1.6!

NotSo wrote: »

Here's another idea:
1. put down a couple Illustrious Healing spells
2. immediately weapon swap to dual wield (it grants more damage than 2h)
3. monitor if the new boost in weapon damage also changes your aoe heals output

This site seems to lack BBCode table support.

Illustrious Healing
weapon normal crit
2H weapon after swapping
1018 1507
resto staff (includes all restoration staff passives, full health)
993 1518

Rushed Ceremony
weapon normal crit
2H weapon after swapping
6198 9178
resto staff (includes all restoration staff passives, full health)
5844 8654

Healing Ritual
weapon normal crit
2H weapon
self (+30%): 8446 12507
players: 6979 9025
resto staff (includes all restoration staff passives, full health)
self (+30%) 7840 11610
players: 6047 8377

XEVENEX

XEVENEX

The greatsword is blue, the staff is purple, both of the same level.

xMovingTarget

noticed that already on the first day PTS came up. They need to fix that -snip-. Its utter BS that you get more spell damage from a melee Weapon damage weapon as from a Magicka yelling Staff!
Also it doesnt make any sense to me that the 2H in general has more weapon power than staffs.

Fix the values on the weapons by making them equal and adjust damage of skills. Its not that hard zenimax!!

I dont wanna be Light armor Pyro DK with a damn 2H Weapon in my hands.. I want to able to do competitive damage if i have to be on range. Only viable options for me As magicka user atm on PTS as DK is Crushing Shock/Force Shock that you already nerfed for whatever reason an the Areal Dot Eruption. Everything else is melee range..

PLease dont make us "Mages" wear a 2Hander to make our DPS higher. Thats BS and you know it. To wear a stamina weapon as magicka user just to buff our Spell damage is the most unlogic thing i have ever seen.. It also destroys our builds. Since we completely miss any spam ability concentrating on magicka with a stamina weapon.

And if you at it, fix Ultimate gain. in 1.6.2 it stops very often. We find ourselfs not gaining any ultimate points at all after we used our ultimates 1 or 2 times. not for light/heavy attacks, not for blocking and also not for dodging.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

xMovingTarget

Koala can't believe it !

Pyatra

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Koala can't believe it !

Domander

Melee weapons should give more damage imo, especially with this new way to gain ultimate.

You do not "have" to use a 2 hander, you'll probably miss out on a lot of light/heavy attacks by doing so if pure spell caster.

wait.. what? a choice? oh snap.

xaade

2hander can't generate magicka from charged attacks.

glak

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

If we want to go around with a 2H just for an edge on power, we sacrifice the magicka return on heavy attack. I didn't think that one through. But if magicka regen isn't an issue for you, then

xMovingTarget

xaade wrote: »

2hander can't generate magicka from charged attacks.

For that we have spell symmetry. We also can weave in 2h light attacks or med attacks. It still doesnt make any sense. Make staffs and 2H on par with their base damage and put the added or subtracted damage from the weapon directly onto the skills. Shouldnt be too hard

Vordae

The damage difference between ranged weapons and melee weapons is for balance. The real issue here is 2h should only be giving you weapon damage and not effecting your Magicka abilities at all and staffs should be giving spell damage and not effecting stamina abilities at all.

xMovingTarget

Vordae wrote: »

The damage difference between ranged weapons and melee weapons is for balance. The real issue here is 2h should only be giving you weapon damage and not effecting your Magicka abilities at all and staffs should be giving spell damage and not effecting stamina abilities at all.

Nothing wrong with that either

glak

Vordae wrote: »

The damage difference between ranged weapons and melee weapons is for balance. The real issue here is 2h should only be giving you weapon damage and not effecting your Magicka abilities at all and staffs should be giving spell damage and not effecting stamina abilities at all.

Would be fine for min/maxers that don'the use a mix of stamina and magicka abilities.
Try unequipping your weapon in 1.6 and notice the huge drop in both spell and weapon power. Then look at your tool tips for the stamina abilities. If ZoS did what you suggested, that would be the result. I think ZoS done did the pooch on this one.

Vordae

With the removal of softcaps hybrid builds died. You pick a main resource pool for dps and the other pool becomes utility.

A fix for the issue would be something like this:

All VR 14 2h weapons give 1000 base damage(increase to both weapon and spell damage). All VR 14 1h weapons give 500 base damage(increase both weapon and spell damage).

Then an addition damage line is added to the weapon based on what type it is. Magicka based weapons add additional spell power and stamina based weapons add addition weapon damage.

A staff would read:
1000 damage, 150 spell damage

A 2h would read:
1000 damage, 350 weapon damage

A 1h would read:
500 damage, 175 weapon damage

Then all weapon types give a base amount of damage that increases both Magicka and stamina abilities but specialize in there resource pool. A 2h sword would never be better for a Magicka user the a staff.

This actually would open up a new type of weapon possibility. They could create a 2h weapon with 1000 base damage, 150 spell damage for a melee Magicka build. You could have a 2h sword DK that still focuses on Magicka and spell power for damage but uses the utility of the 2h weapon line.

Xeniph

I assume the reason for this is melee abilities that are magicka based.

There are still quite a few of these abilities for 3 classes.

Example:

Concealed weapon- Magicka morph
Flame Lash- Magicka
Puncturing Sweep- Magicka morph.

It seems to reward these folks that decide to use these abilities, that don't want to go stamina, with the same bonus damage for having to be within 7-5 meters. While using the appropriate weapon type (melee).

I never did think someone using a staff, looked right, using melee abilities. They still can of coarse, but now they get more of a choice.

Makes sense to me.

Faulgor

I think its reasonable that your spell power now depends on your weapon, because spell resist now depends on your armor as well. Plus, technically, this opens up the possibility for certain weapons with an uneven distribution of spell and weapon power and thus more gear variety - say, a dagger with more spell power.

However ...

If this means my Magicka Templar is best while dual wielding, something is wrong. Staffs should probably get the same spell power as 2h weapons, while their weapon power can stay as low as it is now.

olsborg

This is an outrage, if anything, having a staff in your hands shoud boost your spells more then a 2handed sword, not the other way around.

manny254

Dual wield also does this, and I think you can get more from dual wield + the option to have another set bonus.

olsborg

manny254 wrote: »

Dual wield also does this, and I think you can get more from dual wield + the option to have another set bonus.

Yea the passives with 2 swords?

But anyway, it doesnt make much sense to me that having 2 swords in my hands over a ranged magic staff, would make my crystal fragments hit harder....its...its....(im at a loss for words)

Domander

olsborg wrote: »

This is an outrage, if anything, having a staff in your hands shoud boost your spells more then a 2handed sword, not the other way around.

Why? just because you think it should?

If you look at this from a game mechanic and balance standpoint, what would the reason be?

pppontus

I see this point raised, but has anyone actually tested what really does more DPS? I mean, sure your skills will gain damage, but your light attacks will lose damage as they're dependant on your Stamina as opposed to Magicka for staff attacks?

What's the actual real life result, if 2H grants more average DPS for a magicka user then yeah, something is weird. If you lose too much from light/heavy attacks, then meh, why not give the 2H battlemages at least something going for them.

olsborg

Domander wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

This is an outrage, if anything, having a staff in your hands shoud boost your spells more then a 2handed sword, not the other way around.

Why? just because you think it should?

If you look at this from a game mechanic and balance standpoint, what would the reason be?

Casting spells is what mages do, wielding staffs is what mages do. Looking at this from a lore perspective. Mages either wear bare hands or a staff. Its their style of combat, why should a 2h sword work better for this purpose? Goes against everyting the lore tells me about spellcasters/mages/wizards in tes(o).
(battlemages is a different thing so dont bring that into this thread)

Domander

olsborg wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

This is an outrage, if anything, having a staff in your hands shoud boost your spells more then a 2handed sword, not the other way around.

Why? just because you think it should?

If you look at this from a game mechanic and balance standpoint, what would the reason be?

Casting spells is what mages do, wielding staffs is what mages do. Looking at this from a lore perspective. Mages either wear bare hands or a staff. Its their style of combat, why should a 2h sword work better for this purpose? Goes against everyting the lore tells me about spellcasters/mages/wizards in tes(o).
(battlemages is a different thing so dont bring that into this thread)

If you think about light/heavy attacks, the ultimate gain, and resource return, I would say for many players a staff does work better.

It doesn't work better for the purpose, it just increases the damage a bit.

Those players who want to use a 2 handed melee weapon get some extra damage for having to go melee to light/heavy attack. It makes sense.

Kragorn

olsborg wrote: »

(battlemages is a different thing so dont bring that into this thread)

Ah, so you don't want someone raising the key argument against your stereotypical view of a 'mage'.

In other games, where classes are restricted to weapon and armour choice then, yes, mages use staves because the game developers DEMAND it due to skewed weapon choice and itemisation: WOW of course is the classic example but very far from being the only one, most do.

TES has NEVER asserted this stereotype since any class can wield any weapon, so a 2H SWORD MAGE is 100% 'lore abiding' .. it's your own myopic view of what a 'mage' is that's the problem here.

Alphashado

Beyond the fact that we are talking about Giants and Wizards here, let's keep this in perspective.

There is no reasonable argument that supports the idea of every single Spell Caster in the game becoming more powerful when they equip a giant 2H sword.

Can we imagine a mage being trained in swordplay enough to be proficient in both spells and melee combat? Certainly.

Can we imagine a mage's spells becoming more powerful just because he found an old crappy sword in the dirt and slung it across his back? Of course not.

And that is what's happening.

pppontus

I've watched topic after topic after topic created about this but no one ever shows that they can actually get more damage using a 2H sword with magicka. It's all just tooltip numbers so far.

This is potentially an issue, but someone needs to prove it in a DPS test.

Alphashado

pppontus wrote: »

I've watched topic after topic after topic created about this but no one ever shows that they can actually get more damage using a 2H sword with magicka. It's all just tooltip numbers so far.

This is potentially an issue, but someone needs to prove it in a DPS test.

Such a thing would be easy to fudge. It would be very easy for someone to post a couple FTC pictures and claim they support this topic from either side of the isle.

But we know that base weapon damage increases overall damage just by looking at the skill tooltips with and w/o higher or lower spell damage. And spell damage is higher with a 2H than it is with a staff of equal quality. I will conduct a few tests and see if there is a decent way for me to prove it w/o the test results being subjected to scrutiny.

More to come.

pppontus

Alphashado wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I've watched topic after topic after topic created about this but no one ever shows that they can actually get more damage using a 2H sword with magicka. It's all just tooltip numbers so far.

This is potentially an issue, but someone needs to prove it in a DPS test.

Such a thing would be easy to fudge. It would be very easy for someone to post a couple FTC pictures and claim they support this topic from either side of the isle.

But we know that base weapon damage increases overall damage just by looking at the skill tooltips with and w/o higher or lower spell damage. And spell damage is higher with a 2H than it is with a staff of equal quality. I will conduct a few tests and see if there is a decent way for me to prove it w/o the test results being subjected to scrutiny.

More to come.

Sure, if people wanted to lie they can always lie.. but I don't see why they'd wanna do that. If it's a lie ZOS obviously won't do anything about it either way.

I'm mostly thinking that yes, your spells will do more damage, but you will lose out massively on your light/heavy attack damage so unless your build can do more damage without weaving it wouldn't work. Then again, I don't know how important (or not) weaving is at the moment.

In essence, tests that go further than tooltips are needed

Oh, and also, thanks for testing. I am very interested in the results for sure!

angelyn

Xeniph wrote: »

I assume the reason for this is melee abilities that are magicka based.

There are still quite a few of these abilities for 3 classes.

Example:

Concealed weapon- Magicka morph
Flame Lash- Magicka
Puncturing Sweep- Magicka morph.

It seems to reward these folks that decide to use these abilities, that don't want to go stamina, with the same bonus damage for having to be within 7-5 meters. While using the appropriate weapon type (melee).

I never did think someone using a staff, looked right, using melee abilities. They still can of coarse, but now they get more of a choice.

Makes sense to me.

I understand what you are saying and it's certainly plausible (who knows what devs think)..but then why is there a skill on the Destruction staff which only works if you are in melee range?Ie Impulse.

If any magicka people use the impulse skill at all, then they will play both in melee range and at a longer range. So I don't think that a staff is strictly an "range" weapon, and if that's the way they are going, then bows should have the same stats as staffs? ( I don't know if bows have a close range ability like impulse- I'm just pointing out that it doesn't seem to be a fair system)

And that's assuming that magicka players use staffs only..however magicka players could equip any weapon, which may require range(bow), melee(2 hand) or staff(both melee range and long range)

TBH I'm still mega confused as to why a staff will provide less spell power than a sword..

pppontus

I would love if there was some sort of melee magicka weapon line. That'd be pretty frickin' awesome. Monk Gloves maybe