Templar Puncturing Strikes and Morphs Evaluation based on PTS testing

jopeymonster

The issue is that the CC immunity on this skill now works against the caster, regardless of the morph or situation.

I tested this a ton last night and could not come up with a viable use for Jabs/Sweep in PvP.

First, everyone realize that the knockback cause by this is not a hard CC. This is soft CC that interrupts. It is regarded as hard CC when you can spam and stun lock your target. Hard CC keeps you from doing anything after the CC is applied. Soft CC limits your actions in one form or another for a short period of time.

Knockback is not a hard CC since it doesn't last longer the the ground cooldown per the initial application of the CC. Talons is a soft CC due to locking out movement (root/immobilize), but not action. Power Bash/Slam are soft CCs (disorient). The Chilled status effect is a snare - soft CC. New Destructive touch Fire damage causes knockback, (same as Jab/Strikes), but the morph would qualify as hard since it stuns.

Spear Shards is a hard CC (with the AoE snare being a soft CC). Bolt is hard CC (Streak morph is not, since disorient is considered a soft CC). Crushing Shock interrupt/stun is hard CC (this isn't a knock back, but a stun when interrupted). How about Crystal Shards? That knocks down for 2 secs (not a knockback) but doesn't proc cc immunity.

Second, this skill negates any other CC you may have slotted or want to use. Using this ability will instantly provide a no cost Break-Free on your target and limit any other CC you can cast. The no-cost Break Free will be abused, against the Templar, just wait for everyone to figure out they can walk into this minimal damage spamming skill and get cc immunity without even trying. The other side of this is that due to the nature of the cast, most times, you cannot land the full attack or the on-hit knockback. This is the real reason Templars spam this skill - because its use is unreliable. Just learning how to properly execute it is less about the time to use it, and more about the position of your character, the target, and whether or not you have the almighty PING on your side (not the panda, the lag).

So... there is the problem. Strikes/moprhs is suffering from disparity when compared to CCs of other classes and skill lines. This is almost another snub to the Templar class in general (still suffering from a GCD on Charge because bots used it too much... ), and this feels like the same "solution" to a different, but similar "problem" = Poor design.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Strikes/morphs should not apply cc immunity. This "solution" to the knockback spam problem is unacceptable and is just another example of a lazy work around for bad system, ability, and programming design.

Please re-evaluate these current changes and come up with a better solution.

Here are some suggestions:

Solution1: Apply cc immunity to ANY skills that causes knockback or knock down.

Solution2: Remove CC on Strikes, base level and morphs.

• Base level skill - Add a minor Healing debuff (or a minor buff that isn't too OP when combined with morphs) on cast to target, and keep self-heal (now Templars have a melee healing debuff and self-heal, useable for all situations )
• Biting Jabs morph can stay (1.6 style) and having both the healing debuff and weapon damage buff, plus stamina scaling, should put this as a great melee ability without being OP. If you do not add a buff to base skill, the crit % should be brought back up (or crit damage increase added in it's place)
• Puncturing Sweep should cause a Minor version of BOTH armor and spell resistance debuffs. Combined with the minor buff and self-healing from base, this leaves the skill at a good place for magicka defense situations.

Forums warriors and trolls are welcome to chime in.

technohic

I will say as it is now, with the CC immunity applied to it, I will not use it.

SoulScream

I agree with both posts above.

Sile

Yeah, the CC immunity really makes this skill less than worth using. It would be better if it just didn't apply any CC at all in it's current form.

Phinix1

ZOS need to learn that "balance by nerf" is NOT a viable alternative to resolving fundamental class and build imbalance. I agree this free CC break should be removed, rather than adding the same illogical gimmick to the DK talon soft CC, which they would have to do to make it even remotely fair since that class is still by far the most powerful.

I also think ZOS should give up this stamina vs. magicka fetish and instead of replacing/removing working magic morphs to add token stamina gimmicks with limited usefulness, have 2 of EACH for every skill, making ALL skills scale off the higher of magic or stamina or a combination multiplier based on the spread.

Maybe then hybrid builds wouldn't be completely excluded from the game as 1.6 has done.

zmanu

Well, that's one more skill I don't have to worry about using anymore.

I think changing the knockback to a snare would be the best option, wouldn't have to charge so often either and risk getting bugged.

Dredlord

Lets clear up a few things and suggest a viable alternative...

Although it only lasts for a fraction of a second the knockback is a hard CC regardless of it's duration.

The CC immunity is obviously far too long compared to the duration of the CC.

One biting jabs makes the opponent immune for the next 4-5 jabs which is obviously ridiculous considering the ability is channeled which is easily interruptable and slows you for the duration.

the Immunity should last for the next 1-2 jabs at max in fact the immunity for all hard CC should be based off the duration of the CC.

Other solutions (some mentioned already)

Change it to a 2 second stun same immunity.

Change it to a snare of at least the % of the casting slow.

Or just remove the immunity altogether again and ignore the vocal minority of those who have not learned the many ways to deal with it such as...

Hold block and block the very next jabs KB.

Bind bash to a key (double mouse buttons will fail you) and mash it, unless your ping is terrible it will interrupt the very next jabs or perform a breakout.

Bind dodge to a key (double tapping a direction will fail you) and dodge away from it.

Slot immovable, if it's not worth a slot on your bar then you're telling me the jabs KB isn't that bad.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Dredlord wrote: »

One biting jabs makes the opponent immune for the next 4-5 jabs which is obviously ridiculous considering the ability is channeled which is easily interruptable and slows you for the duration.

the Immunity should last for the next 1-2 jabs at max in fact the immunity for all hard CC should be based off the duration of the CC.

How long does the immunity last right now?

jopeymonster

Thanks for reading everyone, and the constructive feedback.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

Tagging you again mang, this is a direct problem in PvP and these changes serve no purpose in PvE... need a response that you are looking at this or not. The communicated solution for skills were to buff abilities and bring classes in line which other skills, NOT nerf them. This is now the 3rd Templar skill to get hit with an unecessary nerf this patch alone, and the second nerf to apply to this single skill.

As Chris Carter would say - "COMEON man!"

Dredlord wrote: »

Lets clear up a few things and suggest a viable alternative...

Although it only lasts for a fraction of a second the knockback is a hard CC regardless of it's duration.

The CC immunity is obviously far too long compared to the duration of the CC.

One biting jabs makes the opponent immune for the next 4-5 jabs which is obviously ridiculous considering the ability is channeled which is easily interruptable and slows you for the duration.

the Immunity should last for the next 1-2 jabs at max in fact the immunity for all hard CC should be based off the duration of the CC.

Other solutions (some mentioned already)

Change it to a 2 second stun same immunity.

Change it to a snare of at least the % of the casting slow.

Or just remove the immunity altogether again and ignore the vocal minority of those who have not learned the many ways to deal with it such as...

Hold block and block the very next jabs KB.

Bind bash to a key (double mouse buttons will fail you) and mash it, unless your ping is terrible it will interrupt the very next jabs or perform a breakout.

Bind dodge to a key (double tapping a direction will fail you) and dodge away from it.

Slot immovable, if it's not worth a slot on your bar then you're telling me the jabs KB isn't that bad.

Good points - although I think it's hard to argue if knockback is hard vs soft CC. My point on classify it is to reduce the disparity between class skills that CC. If knockback IS a hard CC, then all hard CC that is similar to knockback (knockdown for instant) should also cause a CC immunity buff. This would count for Crystal Frags, Streak, Uppercut, Invasion, and a ton of other abilities that currently do not cause CC immunity.

Your other improvement selections are very insightful. When people complained about Bats, the response was "Move out of them". People complain about Talons spam, "Roll out of it". Flappy Wings? "Don't cast a spell". So when the Templar has a good ability that COULD be countered with standard mechanics like rolling, blocking, moving, we get it nerfed cuz that's TOO hard for players that faceroll.

jopeymonster

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

How long does the immunity last right now?

If IIRC it was approx 4 secs. It might be set at 5/6 secs, and lag was just being finicky. Tested target was a player, testing against all 3 other classes.

Cinbri

Agree. Jabs is chanel skill and not working for burst damage, it only good while spamming. However with reduced damage and cc imunity (2x nerf) it useless and thus paladin-style useless too. Only sun priest style viable for now.

booksmcread

jopeymonster wrote: »

Thanks for reading everyone, and the constructive feedback.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

Tagging you again man...

Just FYI, Brian Wheeler is not on the combat team. While this change may be due to complaints from PVP, changes to class abilities are not handled by the PVP team. You want to direct your feedback to the Combat Team. Eric Wrobel is the Lead Combat Designer. I don't know what his ZOS tag is though.

Alcast

Stab the dude once, and if you use it a 2nd time then get the CC immunity for example?

jopeymonster

booksmcread wrote: »

jopeymonster wrote: »

Thanks for reading everyone, and the constructive feedback.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

Tagging you again man...

Just FYI, Brian Wheeler is not on the combat team. While this change may be due to complaints from PVP, changes to class abilities are not handled by the PVP team. You want to direct your feedback to the Combat Team. Eric Wrobel is the Lead Combat Designer. I don't know what his ZOS tag is though.

Yep - but like you, there's no info on him for forum sign in... so....

I'll just tag Gina and Jessica again since they are awesome and all.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ - please make Eric Wrobel aware of this. Thanks!

jopeymonster

Alcast wrote: »

Stab the dude once, and if you use it a 2nd time then get the CC immunity for example?

CC immunity will activate on first use of Strikes/morphs, regardless if they block or not.

Dracane

The solution is so simple: Just remove the CC of biting jabs and everything is fine. No OP perma stunlock and no CC immunity ( and I agree, the CC immunity after a biting jab is not a good idea)

jopeymonster

Dracane wrote: »

The solution is so simple: Just remove the CC of biting jabs and everything is fine. No OP perma stunlock and no CC immunity ( and I agree, the CC immunity after a biting jab is not a good idea)

I want to make it clear that I'm not against the CC immunity entirely - but having it in it's current PTS form does not make the spell worth it to cast.

If the Strikes/morph did far more damage, then with the CC immunity, it would be OK, but given the trickiness of cast, and the implemented (and already current lack of damage), its a deal breaker.

I don't think completely removing CC on Strikes/morph is the solution unless you buff it to compensate. In its LIVE and current 1.6.2 PTS form, it would be, at best, mediocre without CC, and would be retired to the other half dozen skills that go unused by 99% of Templars.

Dracane

jopeymonster wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The solution is so simple: Just remove the CC of biting jabs and everything is fine. No OP perma stunlock and no CC immunity ( and I agree, the CC immunity after a biting jab is not a good idea)

I want to make it clear that I'm not against the CC immunity entirely - but having it in it's current PTS form does not make the spell worth it to cast.

If the Strikes/morph did far more damage, then with the CC immunity, it would be OK, but given the trickiness of cast, and the implemented (and already current lack of damage), its a deal breaker.

I don't think completely removing CC on Strikes/morph is the solution unless you buff it to compensate. In its LIVE and current 1.6.2 PTS form, it would be, at best, mediocre without CC, and would be retired to the other half dozen skills that go unused by 99% of Templars.

So you mean, leave it as it is, but increase the damage ?
Hm this is also a possible solution.

jopeymonster

Dracane wrote: »

jopeymonster wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The solution is so simple: Just remove the CC of biting jabs and everything is fine. No OP perma stunlock and no CC immunity ( and I agree, the CC immunity after a biting jab is not a good idea)

I want to make it clear that I'm not against the CC immunity entirely - but having it in it's current PTS form does not make the spell worth it to cast.

If the Strikes/morph did far more damage, then with the CC immunity, it would be OK, but given the trickiness of cast, and the implemented (and already current lack of damage), its a deal breaker.

I don't think completely removing CC on Strikes/morph is the solution unless you buff it to compensate. In its LIVE and current 1.6.2 PTS form, it would be, at best, mediocre without CC, and would be retired to the other half dozen skills that go unused by 99% of Templars.

So you mean, leave it as it is, but increase the damage ?
Hm this is also a possible solution.

Correct. Jack the damage and the crit chance on morph way up and keep CC. This means that the spammability is still completely viable, without causing stun lock, and would force the target player to go defense until the Templar is either OOM, or stops spamming. The cost could be increased, but even then, the damage increase would have to be substantial to compensate, plus, with the current system overhaul and CS bonus, ramping up the damage may be harder to tweak, but it is viable.

Sorry ZOS, but you really needed to implement the CC immunity part in the initial PTS patch BEFORE scaling damage down. That was just bad forethought.

jopeymonster

zmanu wrote: »

Well, that's one more skill I don't have to worry about using anymore.

I think changing the knockback to a snare would be the best option, wouldn't have to charge so often either and risk getting bugged.

This is also a good suggestion, but would need something else. The snare alone wouldn't justify losing the crit on morph as well as the "hard" CC of knockback.

Dracane

@Jopeymonster I wish, Sorcs had such a nice DPS ability like biting jabs I'm jealous

Lettigall

Biting jabs needed tuning down, but instead of balancing ZOS choose to nerf it, making pretty much worthless. Removing CC effect from skill would do the trick. Now if you use Jabs you mess up your main CC skill.

david.haypreub18_ESO

They needed to remove the CC or cut the damage... but they ended up doing both, which is excessive.

Pmarsico9

If you remove the knockback, then their needs to be some CC given to Templars.

Suggestion:

REMOVE FOCUSED CHARGE AND PUT A TRUE CC THERE SINCE THE CLASS HAS NONE.

Armitas

OP makes a solid point. It doesn't just hurt templars, it hurts anyone else out there trying to CC after a templar uses jabs.

jopeymonster

Dracane wrote: »

@Jopeymonster I wish, Sorcs had such a nice DPS ability like biting jabs I'm jealous

Sorcs had their time in the sun - now they need to sit at the balance table with everyone else

But in all seriousness - I know of Sorc issues and feel for you. Ya'll just now finding out what Templars (and NBs) have been dealing with for the past year.

Armitas wrote: »

OP makes a solid point. It doesn't just hurt templars, it hurts anyone else out there trying to CC after a templar uses jabs.

Yep, this is the biggest part I was scared of. Templars could be seen as a liability in PvP if they use this skill. It becomes a game wide issue if left unchecked.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

If you remove the knockback, then their needs to be some CC given to Templars.

Suggestion:

REMOVE FOCUSED CHARGE AND PUT A TRUE CC THERE SINCE THE CLASS HAS NONE.

Don't even get me started on Charge...

zmanu

jopeymonster wrote: »

zmanu wrote: »

Well, that's one more skill I don't have to worry about using anymore.

I think changing the knockback to a snare would be the best option, wouldn't have to charge so often either and risk getting bugged.

This is also a good suggestion, but would need something else. The snare alone wouldn't justify losing the crit on morph as well as the "hard" CC of knockback.

A 3s long 80% aoe snare would be pretty interesting. This wouldn't do a whole lot in 1v1 except prevent kiting, but it could be used very effectively in group play. This would also give templar pve tanks a decent cc, which in my opinion is needed.

This all would of course change the nature of biting jabs to a more tanky direction, similar to what the magicka morph already is.

booksmcread

zmanu wrote: »

jopeymonster wrote: »

zmanu wrote: »

Well, that's one more skill I don't have to worry about using anymore.

I think changing the knockback to a snare would be the best option, wouldn't have to charge so often either and risk getting bugged.

This is also a good suggestion, but would need something else. The snare alone wouldn't justify losing the crit on morph as well as the "hard" CC of knockback.

A 3s long 80% aoe snare would be pretty interesting. This wouldn't do a whole lot in 1v1 except prevent kiting, but it could be used very effectively in group play. This would also give templar pve tanks a decent cc, which in my opinion is needed.

This all would of course change the nature of biting jabs to a more tanky direction, similar to what the magicka morph already is.

I think this suggestion has a lot of potential.

jopeymonster

booksmcread wrote: »

zmanu wrote: »

jopeymonster wrote: »

zmanu wrote: »

Well, that's one more skill I don't have to worry about using anymore.

I think changing the knockback to a snare would be the best option, wouldn't have to charge so often either and risk getting bugged.

This is also a good suggestion, but would need something else. The snare alone wouldn't justify losing the crit on morph as well as the "hard" CC of knockback.

A 3s long 80% aoe snare would be pretty interesting. This wouldn't do a whole lot in 1v1 except prevent kiting, but it could be used very effectively in group play. This would also give templar pve tanks a decent cc, which in my opinion is needed.

This all would of course change the nature of biting jabs to a more tanky direction, similar to what the magicka morph already is.

I think this suggestion has a lot of potential.

Agreed.

KeplerMG

The OP is spot on.

On a side note, anyone who thinks the live version of this ability is OP and in need of a nerf is just a terrible player. Good players just avoid the last hit and avoid the CC all together. Bad players forget this is an action RPG and expect to just be able to stand still and fight like an NPC without consequences.

Tankqull

personally even though i loved the knockback it was to strong regardless of pve or pvp.
so to make the skill worthwhile again in 1.6 id like to see it chainged into a stacking snare of 25% for 3sec for every jab landed wich would result in a 3sec root(100%snare) if all jabs of one cycle hit.
this would offer templars the currently not accessable ae cc. (beside the nerfed previuos knockback)