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1.6.2 Sorc Magicka Builds Still Ruined!!! I'm Done! ZoS Read!
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Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »
I really hope they dont test balances only on PVP... or a mudcrab could balance better than developersI have a sneaking suspicion that devs test any balance changes only in PVP or on a single PVE target. Hence why they said in ESO live that pet build was giving massive DPS but "not king of DPS", and why no one considered how sorc dps is supposed to AOE trash mobs with no armour,no AOE skill as no space on bar, and no block casting as our stamina drains to 0 in like a few seconds when blocking.
Balancing pvp is the only thing that matters though..... Who cares if in pve a class does slightly less dps and it takes 10 seconds more to kill a boss.
pvp is far more important than pve balance.
Me I care if in PVE I do 60 % less damage than best class now or 300 % less damage in AOE, that's for the 1.5.
Balancing PVE is really important... just have a look on sanctum best time in EU
9 DK, 2 Templar, 1 NB...
Class in 1.5 for PVE are really not balanced, and I hope that will be bether in 1.6.
After you have right, PVP is really important but PVE too, and we don't speak about 10 % less damage, now it's maybe 60 %, and that are just not acceptable
I guess you're massively exaggerating as you definitely shouldn't be pulling less than 60% of DKs unless you're doing something terribly wrong. With the best Sorc build ~10-15% less, yes, and with the standard build probably 20% less. Anyway, that has no relevance anymore for 1.6 so that's all good.rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
The damage buff was nice. However it didn't make up for the loss of light attack weaving. Rumor has it further nerfs are coming next week and Overload is one of them.
In my mind this roughly translates to
"I hope there will be further nerfs as it's starting to get harder to complain about the DPS of the top ranged DPS class. The argument that only melee does more DPS is starting to make sense."
But what do I know.. I mean, I use a pet. *gasp*
No that's not what it translates too. I am the starter of this thread. I don't want further nerfs. Maybe learn to read? If you insist on taking so much skooma...go trip out somewhere else dude.
Haha, I know you started the thread. That's the joke, by now half of this thread is just complaining to complain. Not about any sort of legitimate issues. It's almost like you'd want further nerfs so that you can continue complaining.
xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/page/4/#post-567158
The current last post in thread.
I want to see this man to do the DPS for more than 100 seconds... Impossible, the dps drops to 8k all the time...
I think you underestimate how sustainable overload is. Light Attacks w/ Overload regenerate Ultimate. After a minute I still had almost 700 ultimate left and that was with constant weaving after each crystal frags.
Nybling...not trying to be rude. However you're the same person champing pet builds along with Erlexx on Tamriel Foundry. I don't think anyone here respects you for that or that you are helping the further downfall of our class.
If you hadn't noticed. The major of the people who play this class, are seriously unhappy with it, and we are all calling for change. This thread alone is proof of that.
Overload is bugged and has been reported 101 times. It will be fixed.
As a member of Entropy Rising you have the Developers ear some what. You of all people should be using to pull out class out of the dump.
Let's be honest here, most of you wont be happy with the sorc till you have the best dps, healing, tanking, mobility in the game. Frankly I'm getting tired of people whining about pet builds just like nightblades who whined their class sucked and would always say something moronic like "they're nightBLADES not nightSTAFFS."
It gets old and your class doesn't suck so quit whining.
nope all i want is the sorc atleast on the same lvl in 1.6 as it is in 1.5 compared to other classes. and thats not the case instead of buffs we recieved nerfes all overthe place hidden behind nice formulations in the patch notes.
Sorcs are much, much better compared to other classes in 1.6 over 1.5. By far. If you don't see this, sorry..
[...]
There's no easy way of saying this but if your Sorc is bad still.. it's you that's bad, not your class. Sorry, but someone had to tell ya.
So I did some (more) testing on PTS. I won't say anything about pure group oriented dps because I haven't tested this yet so I'll leave this part out until I do.
My biggest issue was, and still is, lack of selfheal. Who told them Surge was OP? What do I do now when someone actually hits me through my shield and potion is on cooldown? I see this an issue even in group content because taking pressure off healer/being able to last some on their own was one of few things sorc had going for them. Now that's gone, delightful. But what about solo content? Hell what about just those welwa packs in Upper Crag? In before me sucking, yes I can solo them. I was just trying to get the feel of my class overall and seems I can still solo most Lower Crag and Upper Crag trash - with resto staff and pets. Because if there're more than 3 mobs, they will get me through shields and I will have to use resto staff or die. There's just NOTHING I can do to prevent that outside of resto staff(well, I think 2h has a heal somewhere? Let's call it weapon heal then). It's not like I didn't use it before but this just feels horrible now. I feel...helpless. And I don't have an issue learning to play. I have an issue opening my class trees, looking at them and realizing there's NOTHING there to help me.
For comparison, I made a v14 templar template(resisted using those 3600 points on her, just used 70 or so) and she could solo same trash packs just spamming Puncturing Sweep. One ability. It heals, it does some damage, it even CCs. Don't have to jump around, don't need to use resto staff, just charge in and spam it. If that happens to be not enough there's always BoL to help me out when something goes wrong. I was soloing Lower Crag with using ZERO weapon skills on a templar, I had everything I needed and more.
I'm not even pretending to have a full indepth analyss at this point, I will try to test more, but it's just my impression. Sorc feels absolutely horrible compared to sorc on live and templar on PTS(I'll try to test other classes later, too). Even if we do magically pull more dps than other classes in group stuations now, this isn't good enough to pay for feeling absolutely helpless out of them.
I get that, but you have 2 things to consider here:
Thou shall not tank in light armor!! This was stated by the Developers as something that was not working as intended. You will be squishy and most likely die to everything that can overpower you, I don't necessarily agree with it, but this is their intention so.. that part is what it is.
Secondly, you're comparing a "healer/tank" class to a "caster/dps" class here. In 1.5 the sorc was the easiest thing ever to grind massive packs with, and only using a single buff and a single skill. Everything would just die while you could heal yourself for more than your own max health per second. That isn't balance, that's ridiculous.
Trust me, you can still solo packs in Craglorn fairly easy, but you have to be smart about it now. Use hardened ward, a pet, some entropy, maybe healing ward? There are ways, but they force you to do more than Surge->Impulse. Imo, a very good thing. I never liked crit surge, as it just felt completely wrong to me, it was ridiculous how powerful it was. I get that you might not see this if you haven't spent that much time with other classes.. I have, and I can say that skill was wrong.
Now, you don't have to agree with me, but I don't think all classes should have a self heal.
That's okay if I'm not supposed to (easily) solo Crag trash in light armor, but why could my v14 templar in 7/7 light do this spamming Sweep just as easily as I could on live sorc spamming Surge+Impulse? Well, a bit slower. Sweep is a frontal attack and damage is not that OP, but surviveability is amazing and it even has a CC. Does templar being "healer/tank" class somehow make that balanced?
Forgive me for just comparing to templar now, I don't have time atm to test the rest. I will make a DK and maybe NB(I don't know anything about NB though lol) later to compare. But what I already see just feels wrong.
My experience with other classes is limited but present, v2 DK and v3 templar. I obviously can't talk about endgame content with them, but open world, even Crag open world, I wouldn't call Surge OP compared to healing available to those classes.
And yes, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think all classes should have a selfheal - or none. Or it just isn't fair game.
I can tell you how it's gonna go:
Templar, very slow but easy
DK, fast but hard
NB, slow and semi-hard
Sorc, decent speed and decently difficult
All classes DO have heals, but not instaheals which I guess is what you're asking for? Templar has a strong instaheal and a few nice hots. NB has a very bad instaheal and a decent hot. DK has an OK instaheal but it requires you to be very damaged to be worth it. Sorc has good heals but based on procs (blood magic, crit surge).
Our opinions differ I guess
We shall see. I will post once I test that:)
And it's not instaheals that I want so much, more like *viable* heals. Obviously templars have everything there(imo ZOS kinda shot themselves in the foot when saying "play the way you want!" AND giving one class a class specific healing tree but whatever). DKs have Dragonblood which you imo underrate, it's amazing. Not only it heals you based on how hurt you are, it also buffs your health and stam regeneration, making it worth it even if you're NOT hurt that much. Plus quite a few DK skills have healy morphs iirc, and let's not forget Battle Roar(which will admittedly be a lot weaker with low ulti generation in 1.6, that's true). NBs don't seem to have as much but that HoT(Sap essence?) seems really nice, I see them take crazy damage spamming it. Sorc...surge is about as good as entropy is now in terms of heals, sure doesn't seem to heal more than that. Blood magic is, iirc, 5% max health:/
I just really don't like the feel of my sorc on PTS right now. I feel clumsy, fragile and mostly useless, and when I look at my class skilltrees I see nothing there to help me.
I guess I'll get back to you after more testing, but atm it's hard to resist joining the "just give us free class change and be done with it already" crowd:|2 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let's begin with stating that Melee does some 10-20% more DPS on average, there are certain melee builds and ranged builds that do much more/less but on a sort of average.
Actually, most of the parses that I see while running trials grant 20% more DPS to melee disregarding the mechanics of the fight.Lightning Storm Atronach
Forces you to run away to a random location every x amount of seconds, where the chances are ~80% that you cannot do any damage at all for the duration if you're melee. Ranged will win this fight.
I disagree with your next post where you said that 90% of the groups will use the "safe-spot" strategy. Running around was always more demanding than good timing for Ultimates and good heal.
Melee builds with a bow offbar will be at a slight disadvantage in DPS if the safe-spot strategy is used. Granted.Foundation Stone Atronach
A bit easier depending on Strategy, forces you to move around the boss which makes targeting harder, but generally you can stay close. Melee will win this fight.
100% melee fight. Almost of the tank and spank type. Melee will obviously win as you stated.Varlariel
Melee is much more dangerous as it's in the concentration of where raindrops fall, meaning you will have a lot more potential oneshots to constantly avoid. Additionally you will have to kill a large amount of adds, where you will have to run from boss to add to add etc. Ranged will most likely win this fight.
Raindrops do not fall only at melee. I have no more issue surviving raindrops when playing melee than when playing ranged on this fight. You might lose 5 sec of DPS while moving to the add next to you. But Melee will still win this fight for me.The Mage
Extremely unfriendly to melee, you cannot possibly have too many people in Melee here as ~5 people to close will result in all 5 getting oneshot by chain lightning. As long as you don't have too many melee, your DPS will be high, but you better hope that your ranged users can deal with the minimages. Melee will most likely win this fight.
As you said, Melee will win this fight. But all DPS can't be Melee here.I could continue to do this and name more melee-unfriendly fights such as Ra-Kotu, The Warrior, Mantikora, Stonebreaker. Also completely melee-friendly fights like The Serpent. You can see a pattern though, currently about half the fights in Trials will be won by melee DPS and the others by ranged DPS.
Ra-Kotu : Melee friendly for most of the fight. Melee will still win or will be extremely close to ranged.
Both Yokeda : Melee friendly
The Warrior : Requires a bit of running. Range are at advantage.
Mantikora : Not Melee friendly, granted. Melee can be sent to kill Serpent image to help them.
Stonebreaker : Melee possible here. Avoiding one PBAOE skill is not what I call melee unfriendly. Range need to avoid cone attack.
Osara : Melee wins.
Serpent : Melee wins.I can assure you that as a raid leader myself, I'll be looking to have a good balance between range and melee, especially in 1.6.
I truely hope that is the case and that the game will require to keep a nice balance between range and melee with mechanics such as the chain lightning on Mage.
However, currently on live (and I don't see why this would change with 1.6), Melee do produce a 20% superior DPS on a most of the endgame fights (and a huge majority of the rest of the content). They are able to do this even while having to avoid a few mechanics. Range needs to avoid stuff as well, PBAOE is generally the only difference in mechanics.
I will repeat what my vision is about what the difference between range and melee should be :
Melee and range should grant a very close average DPS among all the encounters. However, Range should be way squishier than Melee and therefore become high priority targets for the IA or even in the PvP field.
You have to consider that a lot has changed as well, Stonebreaker for example the PBAOE is now almost a oneshot in itself now so if you aren't at full health, you're dead. Most PBAOEs have been buffed like crazy. Also, you can't really consider the right side Yokeda on the Warrior to be especially melee friendly considering you have to interrupt his split
Anyway, to me it looks to be very even in 1.6, with certain fights being clear wins for one or the other.
Any completely conclusive results won't be seen until we've had a lot of groups run through the trials. Admittedly much of it is guesswork based on my experiences running AA and SO on the PTS. I do however feel completely confident in saying that Sorcs are in a very good spot at the moment.florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »
I really hope they dont test balances only on PVP... or a mudcrab could balance better than developersI have a sneaking suspicion that devs test any balance changes only in PVP or on a single PVE target. Hence why they said in ESO live that pet build was giving massive DPS but "not king of DPS", and why no one considered how sorc dps is supposed to AOE trash mobs with no armour,no AOE skill as no space on bar, and no block casting as our stamina drains to 0 in like a few seconds when blocking.
Balancing pvp is the only thing that matters though..... Who cares if in pve a class does slightly less dps and it takes 10 seconds more to kill a boss.
pvp is far more important than pve balance.
Me I care if in PVE I do 60 % less damage than best class now or 300 % less damage in AOE, that's for the 1.5.
Balancing PVE is really important... just have a look on sanctum best time in EU
9 DK, 2 Templar, 1 NB...
Class in 1.5 for PVE are really not balanced, and I hope that will be bether in 1.6.
After you have right, PVP is really important but PVE too, and we don't speak about 10 % less damage, now it's maybe 60 %, and that are just not acceptable
I guess you're massively exaggerating as you definitely shouldn't be pulling less than 60% of DKs unless you're doing something terribly wrong. With the best Sorc build ~10-15% less, yes, and with the standard build probably 20% less. Anyway, that has no relevance anymore for 1.6 so that's all good.rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
The damage buff was nice. However it didn't make up for the loss of light attack weaving. Rumor has it further nerfs are coming next week and Overload is one of them.
In my mind this roughly translates to
"I hope there will be further nerfs as it's starting to get harder to complain about the DPS of the top ranged DPS class. The argument that only melee does more DPS is starting to make sense."
But what do I know.. I mean, I use a pet. *gasp*
No that's not what it translates too. I am the starter of this thread. I don't want further nerfs. Maybe learn to read? If you insist on taking so much skooma...go trip out somewhere else dude.
Haha, I know you started the thread. That's the joke, by now half of this thread is just complaining to complain. Not about any sort of legitimate issues. It's almost like you'd want further nerfs so that you can continue complaining.xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/page/4/#post-567158
The current last post in thread.
I want to see this man to do the DPS for more than 100 seconds... Impossible, the dps drops to 8k all the time...
I think you underestimate how sustainable overload is. Light Attacks w/ Overload regenerate Ultimate. After a minute I still had almost 700 ultimate left and that was with constant weaving after each crystal frags.
Nybling...not trying to be rude. However you're the same person champing pet builds along with Erlexx on Tamriel Foundry. I don't think anyone here respects you for that or that you are helping the further downfall of our class.
If you hadn't noticed. The major of the people who play this class, are seriously unhappy with it, and we are all calling for change. This thread alone is proof of that.
Overload is bugged and has been reported 101 times. It will be fixed.
As a member of Entropy Rising you have the Developers ear some what. You of all people should be using to pull out class out of the dump.
Let's be honest here, most of you wont be happy with the sorc till you have the best dps, healing, tanking, mobility in the game. Frankly I'm getting tired of people whining about pet builds just like nightblades who whined their class sucked and would always say something moronic like "they're nightBLADES not nightSTAFFS."
It gets old and your class doesn't suck so quit whining.
nope all i want is the sorc atleast on the same lvl in 1.6 as it is in 1.5 compared to other classes. and thats not the case instead of buffs we recieved nerfes all overthe place hidden behind nice formulations in the patch notes.
Sorcs are much, much better compared to other classes in 1.6 over 1.5. By far. If you don't see this, sorry..
[...]
There's no easy way of saying this but if your Sorc is bad still.. it's you that's bad, not your class. Sorry, but someone had to tell ya.
So I did some (more) testing on PTS. I won't say anything about pure group oriented dps because I haven't tested this yet so I'll leave this part out until I do.
My biggest issue was, and still is, lack of selfheal. Who told them Surge was OP? What do I do now when someone actually hits me through my shield and potion is on cooldown? I see this an issue even in group content because taking pressure off healer/being able to last some on their own was one of few things sorc had going for them. Now that's gone, delightful. But what about solo content? Hell what about just those welwa packs in Upper Crag? In before me sucking, yes I can solo them. I was just trying to get the feel of my class overall and seems I can still solo most Lower Crag and Upper Crag trash - with resto staff and pets. Because if there're more than 3 mobs, they will get me through shields and I will have to use resto staff or die. There's just NOTHING I can do to prevent that outside of resto staff(well, I think 2h has a heal somewhere? Let's call it weapon heal then). It's not like I didn't use it before but this just feels horrible now. I feel...helpless. And I don't have an issue learning to play. I have an issue opening my class trees, looking at them and realizing there's NOTHING there to help me.
For comparison, I made a v14 templar template(resisted using those 3600 points on her, just used 70 or so) and she could solo same trash packs just spamming Puncturing Sweep. One ability. It heals, it does some damage, it even CCs. Don't have to jump around, don't need to use resto staff, just charge in and spam it. If that happens to be not enough there's always BoL to help me out when something goes wrong. I was soloing Lower Crag with using ZERO weapon skills on a templar, I had everything I needed and more.
I'm not even pretending to have a full indepth analyss at this point, I will try to test more, but it's just my impression. Sorc feels absolutely horrible compared to sorc on live and templar on PTS(I'll try to test other classes later, too). Even if we do magically pull more dps than other classes in group stuations now, this isn't good enough to pay for feeling absolutely helpless out of them.
I get that, but you have 2 things to consider here:
Thou shall not tank in light armor!! This was stated by the Developers as something that was not working as intended. You will be squishy and most likely die to everything that can overpower you, I don't necessarily agree with it, but this is their intention so.. that part is what it is.
Secondly, you're comparing a "healer/tank" class to a "caster/dps" class here. In 1.5 the sorc was the easiest thing ever to grind massive packs with, and only using a single buff and a single skill. Everything would just die while you could heal yourself for more than your own max health per second. That isn't balance, that's ridiculous.
Trust me, you can still solo packs in Craglorn fairly easy, but you have to be smart about it now. Use hardened ward, a pet, some entropy, maybe healing ward? There are ways, but they force you to do more than Surge->Impulse. Imo, a very good thing. I never liked crit surge, as it just felt completely wrong to me, it was ridiculous how powerful it was. I get that you might not see this if you haven't spent that much time with other classes.. I have, and I can say that skill was wrong.
Now, you don't have to agree with me, but I don't think all classes should have a self heal.
That's okay if I'm not supposed to (easily) solo Crag trash in light armor, but why could my v14 templar in 7/7 light do this spamming Sweep just as easily as I could on live sorc spamming Surge+Impulse? Well, a bit slower. Sweep is a frontal attack and damage is not that OP, but surviveability is amazing and it even has a CC. Does templar being "healer/tank" class somehow make that balanced?
Forgive me for just comparing to templar now, I don't have time atm to test the rest. I will make a DK and maybe NB(I don't know anything about NB though lol) later to compare. But what I already see just feels wrong.
My experience with other classes is limited but present, v2 DK and v3 templar. I obviously can't talk about endgame content with them, but open world, even Crag open world, I wouldn't call Surge OP compared to healing available to those classes.
And yes, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think all classes should have a selfheal - or none. Or it just isn't fair game.
I can tell you how it's gonna go:
Templar, very slow but easy
DK, fast but hard
NB, slow and semi-hard
Sorc, decent speed and decently difficult
All classes DO have heals, but not instaheals which I guess is what you're asking for? Templar has a strong instaheal and a few nice hots. NB has a very bad instaheal and a decent hot. DK has an OK instaheal but it requires you to be very damaged to be worth it. Sorc has good heals but based on procs (blood magic, crit surge).
Our opinions differ I guess
We shall see. I will post once I test that:)
And it's not instaheals that I want so much, more like *viable* heals. Obviously templars have everything there(imo ZOS kinda shot themselves in the foot when saying "play the way you want!" AND giving one class a class specific healing tree but whatever). DKs have Dragonblood which you imo underrate, it's amazing. Not only it heals you based on how hurt you are, it also buffs your health and stam regeneration, making it worth it even if you're NOT hurt that much. Plus quite a few DK skills have healy morphs iirc, and let's not forget Battle Roar(which will admittedly be a lot weaker with low ulti generation in 1.6, that's true). NBs don't seem to have as much but that HoT(Sap essence?) seems really nice, I see them take crazy damage spamming it. Sorc...surge is about as good as entropy is now in terms of heals, sure doesn't seem to heal more than that. Blood magic is, iirc, 5% max health:/
I just really don't like the feel of my sorc on PTS right now. I feel clumsy, fragile and mostly useless, and when I look at my class skilltrees I see nothing there to help me.
I guess I'll get back to you after more testing, but atm it's hard to resist joining the "just give us free class change and be done with it already" crowd:|
Sap Essence have been nerfed as well so it's not at all as survivable as it used to be afaik, not tested it yet so this is all hearsay. But even in 1.5 Sap Essence is like a 500pt damage and 400pt heal, when hitting 6 targets, almost nothing unless you can hit 6 targets. A comparison with Surge can not even be made as they are in different universes
Anyway, sorry you feel that way, I'm just trying to put things into perspective as I think the discussion has gone too far in that people here have mostly reinforced each others bad feelings leading to an incredible circle of negativity. I hope you'll grow to like it again soon, it always takes a while to get used to huge changes.Edited by pppontus on 13 February 2015 11:101 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Are people really counting Overload attacks as DPS for Sorcs? LOL, each attack cost 22 Ultimate, but you're typically only gaining 3 Ultimate per second at best.
So.... over time, you can only sustain the use of ONE Overload attack every 7-8 seconds. You know what that means? Overload is IRRELEVANT in any discussion of Sorcerer PvE DPS.
It's perfectly obvious where this BS is coming from. PVP whiners, most of whom rolled DK a long time ago, are mad cause they got killed on PTS once by burst damage from an Overload attack...
NEWSFLASH: The guy who killed you probably ran out of Ultimate 10 seconds later and got killed by somebody else!
PVP whiners, please stop coming onto Sorcerer threads and spouting crap about PVE that you know NOTHING about.
You know what ? The Ultimate gain of Overload attacks is considered a bug, yes a BUG ! O.o can you believe this ? Overload is a light attack and should intentionally restore Ultimate, but it is considered a bug.
So Overload is becoming worse soon. In 1.6 with with 3600 CP, I can't do anything to an enemy in pvp by spamming it. The 50% damage increase finally made it worth calling it an ultimate. But believe me, it's not so super as it might seem on the paper.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sap Essence have been nerfed as well so it's not at all as survivable as it used to be afaik, not tested it yet so this is all hearsay. But even in 1.5 Sap Essence is like a 500pt damage and 400pt heal, when hitting 6 targets, almost nothing unless you can hit 6 targets. A comparison with Surge can not even be made as they are in different universes
Just tested Siphoning Attacks + Sap Essence at Spellscar on PTS, and it's certainly harder than on live right now. However, I think this is mostly due to Light Armor's low armor rating now.
I used to be all in favor of lowering Light Armor resistances, but that was when magicka was still king in DPS. Glass cannons only make sense when it's actually a cannon.
Maybe a change in passives that grants spell power for light armor users just as medium armor grants weapon power would be in order, but I'm not sure about this.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.8 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sap Essence have been nerfed as well so it's not at all as survivable as it used to be afaik, not tested it yet so this is all hearsay. But even in 1.5 Sap Essence is like a 500pt damage and 400pt heal, when hitting 6 targets, almost nothing unless you can hit 6 targets. A comparison with Surge can not even be made as they are in different universes
Just tested Siphoning Attacks + Sap Essence at Spellscar on PTS, and it's certainly harder than on live right now. However, I think this is mostly due to Light Armor's low armor rating now.
I used to be all in favor of lowering Light Armor resistances, but that was when magicka was still king in DPS. Glass cannons only make sense when it's actually a cannon.
Maybe a change in passives that grants spell power for light armor users just as medium armor grants weapon power would be in order, but I'm not sure about this.
Yeah, I just had this exact same discussion actually. Light armor is too weak offensively for the nerf it took to defense, but that's really affecting every Magicka user. I agree +spell power and possibly +crit based on the number of pieces of LA you have on would be good, this way you would actually make a choice between 5L/2H and 7L, right now it's not a choice.. you need to have 5L/2H.Edited by pppontus on 13 February 2015 11:335 -
A1exeR✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Are people really counting Overload attacks as DPS for Sorcs? LOL, each attack cost 22 Ultimate, but you're typically only gaining 3 Ultimate per second at best.
So.... over time, you can only sustain the use of ONE Overload attack every 7-8 seconds. You know what that means? Overload is IRRELEVANT in any discussion of Sorcerer PvE DPS.
It's perfectly obvious where this BS is coming from. PVP whiners, most of whom rolled DK a long time ago, are mad cause they got killed on PTS once by burst damage from an Overload attack...
NEWSFLASH: The guy who killed you probably ran out of Ultimate 10 seconds later and got killed by somebody else!
PVP whiners, please stop coming onto Sorcerer threads and spouting crap about PVE that you know NOTHING about.
You know what ? The Ultimate gain of Overload attacks is considered a bug, yes a BUG ! O.o can you believe this ? Overload is a light attack and should intentionally restore Ultimate, but it is considered a bug.
So Overload is becoming worse soon. In 1.6 with with 3600 CP, I can't do anything to an enemy in pvp by spamming it. The 50% damage increase finally made it worth calling it an ultimate. But believe me, it's not so super as it might seem on the paper.
I do not know this. Sorc is really sucks in 1.6
1 -
Wylander✭✭So after 20h perma testing the mage i'm done finaly
So in my opnion the Sorcerer is on a good way right now, Pet Build dose realy nice dmg. And a normal Specc without pets and Toggles should also working fine. Definetly there is some room beside the Pets where the Sorcerer could get a little tweaky buff. I think it could be good managed via. Passiv skills in Storm Caller Tree without effecting the Pet Buff and becoming OP. Ithink a good way is "Desintegration proccs" to raise the chance up to 15% on all Lightning effects you could have done like "Lightningstaff Attacks and abilities.
This should be a good way i think to ditch out some DPS over longer Fights without become OP.
Surviveability is also realy nice while having a Mutagen running all the time + surge makes it realy solid. Can for real be squishy but it's not that hard now.
i don't know how people archiv over 10-15k DPS on a single target and 70 CP spend only but i think it's possible when you have reached around 400-500 CP.
There you have already mostly everything usefull done for DPS.
But in my opinion this is not the right way to go. Surviveability is more important then +50DPS on a parse.
The 10% CS nerf dosn't realy hurt that much. You can pretty easy using another spell for that and you come out at the same point of DPS.
If you manage right i think Lightning Flood can be also a good DPS gain. it parsed around 1,2k DPS when maintaining it right.
So by far everything i tested was with only 70 Points.
So at least you can do pretty much decent DPS overall while plying as a Archmage or Classical Mage. You have to maintain much more then a PetMancer but it's still possible and i'm sure with right equipment it's possible to to let PetMancer again behind you in a Parse.
I also testet some different Meele Builds on Sorcerer and yes. while going DW you can do realy decent DPS. it's around 20% more DPS you can do if you don't have to avoid some stuff. If you have to do you hardly drop behind every Caster.
But this is ok i think. While playing 2h was not realy fun i gave up further testing on it so don't beg me for commen o this. I have no comment!
But for me, my time is over on Sorcerer right now. For personaly it's to squishy.
Templar and DK can do alot more hings in the world i realy like to do also. But with the mage it seems to be a hard long way to archiv these things.
8 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As i said on another thread, Crushing Shock has actually taken a 23% damage nerf.
it lots its 13% damage bonus from Flawless Dawnbreaker(which pretty much every DPS on live using CS will slot because its just too good not to)
then we get hit with another 10%
Crushing Shock in terms of scaling and comparison to live now does 23% less damage on 1.6 then it does on live, the 13% nerf by losing the Flawless Dawnbreaker bonus was bad enough, but with this added 10%, just get out the shovel already and dig CS its grave...honestly...i'll just find other ways to do damage,
Those who relied on Crushing shock as a DPS skill are now being forced to eat a crap sammich, the last thing they need is folks telling them the crap sammich tastes like a philly cheese steak.Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak7 -
Lussura✭✭✭As i said on another thread, Crushing Shock has actually taken a 23% damage nerf.
it lots its 13% damage bonus from Flawless Dawnbreaker(which pretty much every DPS on live using CS will slot because its just too good not to)
then we get hit with another 10%
Crushing Shock in terms of scaling and comparison to live now does 23% less damage on 1.6 then it does on live, the 13% nerf by losing the Flawless Dawnbreaker bonus was bad enough, but with this added 10%, just get out the shovel already and dig CS its grave...honestly...i'll just find other ways to do damage,
Those who relied on Crushing shock as a DPS skill are now being forced to eat a crap sammich, the last thing they need is folks telling them the crap sammich tastes like a philly cheese steak.
This is correct...and I never thought of it. Without Flawless Dawnbreaker....it really is now a 23% nerf. So with ZoS knowing we can no longer use Dawnbreaker as a caster...why nerf it? Seems ZoS didn't think this through.
If anything ZoS should have buffed Crushing Shock damage by 10%.....4 -
Exstazik✭✭✭✭if you look at staff animations the character use only 1 hand....idk why staff uses 2 slots....mb in 1.6.3 staff will be 1h all?
Edited by Exstazik on 13 February 2015 14:441 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I´ve personally always despised CS as a dps spell. Problem is the lack of alternatives on a sorcerer apart from hardcasting crystal fragments which is even more boring.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Lussura✭✭✭Anyhow to make Sorcerers even worth playing on PC and Console....They have to seriously buff the class. Otherwise we will continue to see Trial groups without a single Sorcerer of any type and Dungeons without them as well.
As of now...good luck finding a group serious about PVE or PVP content. I was forced to re-roll Templar to get a Trial spot. The guilds I have ran into for progression simply don't recruit Sorcerer's at all.
I know what people are going to say...this doesn't happen. Well sorry it does happen and people need to face the facts. ZoS needs to stop balancing based of PVP alone and think of the PVE players...which are the VAST majority of their player base.
So ZoS if you are reading this. You're lack of attention and continued nerfing of the Sorcerer is ruining players game play. Players can't find groups for content, because we produce subpar damage, healing, and support. And that's in any spec we play.
Get it together.Edited by Lussura on 13 February 2015 14:464 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The CS nerf is the CS nerf. It affects a lot of classes and builds not only Sorc, so I'll give my feedback on that on another thread.
However, why the Sorc has no moderate damage "filler" skill is beyond me. Something that is instant projectile and hits for not much, like 4.5k-5k. I don't even want a utility on it like the interrupt/status effects of CS, or the heals of Swallow Soul.
Just a skill that does some decent direct damage instead of relying on procs or timers.EU | PC | AD4 -
Lussura✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »The CS nerf is the CS nerf. It affects a lot of classes and builds not only Sorc, so I'll give my feedback on that on another thread.
However, why the Sorc has no moderate damage "filler" skill is beyond me. Something that is instant projectile and hits for not much, like 4.5k-5k. I don't even want a utility on it like the interrupt/status effects of CS, or the heals of Swallow Soul.
Just a skill that does some decent direct damage instead of relying on procs or timers.
Basically Sorcerers use Crushing Shock because Crystal Fragments is trash for PVE or PVP content unless it's instant proc.
They could fix Sorcerer by increasing Crystal Fragments damage and reducing the cast time more. However they won't....because of pvp qq. So a whole class will stay ruined.2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »The CS nerf is the CS nerf. It affects a lot of classes and builds not only Sorc, so I'll give my feedback on that on another thread.
However, why the Sorc has no moderate damage "filler" skill is beyond me. Something that is instant projectile and hits for not much, like 4.5k-5k. I don't even want a utility on it like the interrupt/status effects of CS, or the heals of Swallow Soul.
Just a skill that does some decent direct damage instead of relying on procs or timers.
Well for PvE you can just use hardcasted crystal fragments/blast. It´s more dps than shock anyway since the casttime got changed to match the animation cooldown.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't even know why I try reasoning with people.![:\](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
Thanks to everyone who has shared intelligent opinions, feedback and examples, @Derra @Fayaburn @Wylander @Magdalina among others.
I'll leave this thread to better facilitate the nerfed-nerfed-nerfed *** that most people seem to be more interested in.
I just can't be bothered to repeat myself a billion times.
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Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭My biggest issue was, and still is, lack of selfheal. Who told them Surge was OP? What do I do now when someone actually hits me through my shield and potion is on cooldown?
I'm not even pretending to have a full indepth analyss at this point, I will try to test more, but it's just my impression. Sorc feels absolutely horrible compared to sorc on live and templar on PTS
Good post.
The good news is that, in most situations we can cover for our newfound fragility. You can no longer use Surge to tank with your health bar, as Surge, Light Armor and your health have all been nerfed. What you can do is lean more heavily toward magicka and use Conjured Ward a lot. For example, I can still solo the Spellscar packs with my copied, 70 CP sorc. I just have to cast Hardened Ward every third spell, while making sure to keep moving. Offensive use of Streak as a CC and gap opener helps, too.
In situations where sustained DPS is relevant, this won't help much. There, it does feel like sorcs got more of the glass than the cannon.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade2 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Basically Sorcerers use Crushing Shock because Crystal Fragments is trash for PVE or PVP content unless it's instant proc.
They could fix Sorcerer by increasing Crystal Fragments damage and reducing the cast time more. However they won't....because of pvp qq. So a whole class will stay ruined.
Well you know, PvP's got to be balanced too. Buffing CF further is not an option. They already hit very very hard in PvP. Which is why having a filler skill would help without ruining balance.Well for PvE you can just use hardcasted crystal fragments/blast. It´s more dps than shock anyway since the casttime got changed to match the animation cooldown.
I'll test that tonight on bloodspawn on PTS.
Are you saying that animation cancelling light attacks with Crushing Shock now deals less damage over 2 mins and it's no better from a cost-efficiency point compared to hard casting frags?Edited by Maulkin on 13 February 2015 15:21EU | PC | AD1 -
Lussura✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »The CS nerf is the CS nerf. It affects a lot of classes and builds not only Sorc, so I'll give my feedback on that on another thread.
However, why the Sorc has no moderate damage "filler" skill is beyond me. Something that is instant projectile and hits for not much, like 4.5k-5k. I don't even want a utility on it like the interrupt/status effects of CS, or the heals of Swallow Soul.
Just a skill that does some decent direct damage instead of relying on procs or timers.
Well for PvE you can just use hardcasted crystal fragments/blast. It´s more dps than shock anyway since the casttime got changed to match the animation cooldown.
You can light attack weave with CS...You can't light attack weave with CF. CS by all spreadsheets is still doing FAR more damage, becuz of the light attack weaving.
CF would need a 10-15% damage increase to boost it above. Tons of threads on Tamriel Foundry about this....
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Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they want to increase sorc PvE damage, Crushing Shock and Crystal Fragments are probably not the best candidates, partly because both have CC effects that make them very useful in PvP. Neither needs a buff in Cyrodiil.
Mage's Fury would be a better choice. Make one of the morphs increase the pre-execute damage,transforming the spell into a decent filler nuke.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade2 -
Lussura✭✭✭If they want to increase sorc PvE damage, Crushing Shock and Crystal Fragments are probably not the best candidates, partly because both have CC effects that make them very useful in PvP. Neither needs a buff in Cyrodiil.
Mage's Fury would be a better choice. Make one of the morphs increase the pre-execute damage,transforming the spell into a decent filler nuke.
Velicous Curse is a better choice in my opinion. They could increase the damage on this abality and we wouldn't see much of a over all change in pvp. However in PVE...it would put us back on the mat.
You'd see Crystal Fragments being casted again in between applying Velicous Curse.0 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Velicous Curse is a better choice in my opinion. They could increase the damage on this abality and we wouldn't see much of a over all change in pvp. However in PVE...it would put us back on the mat
Yeah, that would work. They both fit the criteria of "class skill without significant crowd control benefits."
Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I get your frustration but I think you might be a bit early on deciding sorc dps builds are worthless in endgame pve. It took a while before good builds were figured out when the game was lauched so I think it will take a while before good 1.6 magicka builds are figured out. Personally I would rather play a stamina two-handed sorc than a pet build with 2 abilities per bar. But I like my destro/resto build so I will try and make it work for pve, for pvp I dont mind using sword&board/resto like I do now.
In 1.6 sorcs benefit the most from the softcap removal. Due to the fact sorcs gain both offensive and defensive capabilities simply by raising their magicka, having a big magicka pool and good survivability with the best mobility is a huge advantage. More for pvp than for pve though.
The crushing shock nerf is something that affects all magicka builds but I can be compensated with CP into elemental damage. So I think the 10% damage nerf is just an adjustment to decrease end game dps. Same for the changes to spell crit for example.
Right now people on live are also complaining sorcs are only useful for negate in pvp but I dont think its true at all. When you learn to play the sorc it can be so strong, I get 50 kill-streaks all the time. It comes down to high burst damage (little luck on cfrags procs) and very good timing. And if I cant win I just streak away. But because its very hard to master the playstyle a lot of people think its a bad class. I actually think sorcs will be the strongest class in pvp but I might be a bit too optimistic.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Lussura✭✭✭I have a suggestion for ZoS. Sorcerer Magicka builds are currently terrible. Personally I think Crushing Shock spam...should have never existed. I also understand some player enjoy Sorcerer pets and they did need a buff. However I understand Sorcerer players need other options besides being a togglemancer if they so chose.
I think increasing the damage on Velocious Curse is the place to do this. If it's damage where increased by 15-20%. We would see a resurgence of Crystal Fragment builds in PVE. Players casting curse, to get the instant Crystal Fragments, and hard casting Crystal Fragments. Players could use Structured Entropy as a fill damage over time as well. This along with Spell Symmetry. Inner Light, and Ice comet...would make a wonderful PVE build.
However it all depends on buffing Velocious Curse. We would see no change in PVP content. As curse can be cleansed off easily.
So tell me what others think?1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Basically Sorcerers use Crushing Shock because Crystal Fragments is trash for PVE or PVP content unless it's instant proc.
They could fix Sorcerer by increasing Crystal Fragments damage and reducing the cast time more. However they won't....because of pvp qq. So a whole class will stay ruined.
Well you know, PvP's got to be balanced too. Buffing CF further is not an option. They already hit very very hard in PvP. Which is why having a filler skill would help without ruining balance.Well for PvE you can just use hardcasted crystal fragments/blast. It´s more dps than shock anyway since the casttime got changed to match the animation cooldown.
I'll test that tonight on bloodspawn on PTS.
Are you saying that animation cancelling light attacks with Crushing Shock now deals less damage over 2 mins and it's no better from a cost-efficiency point compared to hard casting frags?
Shock is more cost efficient. Fragments with light attacks in between deals more dmg (edit: i have not run into sustain problems on pts at all. With atronarch mundus - if needed - and siphon spirit i could cast fragments permanent)mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »The CS nerf is the CS nerf. It affects a lot of classes and builds not only Sorc, so I'll give my feedback on that on another thread.
However, why the Sorc has no moderate damage "filler" skill is beyond me. Something that is instant projectile and hits for not much, like 4.5k-5k. I don't even want a utility on it like the interrupt/status effects of CS, or the heals of Swallow Soul.
Just a skill that does some decent direct damage instead of relying on procs or timers.
Well for PvE you can just use hardcasted crystal fragments/blast. It´s more dps than shock anyway since the casttime got changed to match the animation cooldown.
You can light attack weave with CS...You can't light attack weave with CF. CS by all spreadsheets is still doing FAR more damage, becuz of the light attack weaving.
CF would need a 10-15% damage increase to boost it above. Tons of threads on Tamriel Foundry about this....
Who told you that you can´t weave in light attacks between two crystal fragments?
I can light attack just fine between fragment casts - its even easier than finding the right timing with shock. The problem on foundry was a casttime of 1.3s back in version 1.0 to 1.5. That is now decreased to 1 second flat. Thats about 20% dmg increase there for hardcasting fragments.
Why don´t people test things themself. 80% of the things you read on forums are nonsense or outdated. Don´t believe everything that someone took a 30 second effort to write in a forum (yeah that includes my statements too).Edited by Derra on 13 February 2015 16:03<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »When you learn to play the sorc it can be so strong, I get 50 kill-streaks all the time. It comes down to high burst damage (little luck on cfrags procs) and very good timing. And if I cant win I just streak away. But because its very hard to master the playstyle a lot of people think its a bad class. I actually think sorcs will be the strongest class in pvp but I might be a bit too optimistic.
Sudden burst is not the problem. Sorc can generate good pockets of burst. Problem is the lack of direct instant damage to apply pressure.
For example with my DK, if someone is CCed, I'll charge in and flame whip him down. On the Sorc, without Crushing Shock, I'll have to put a Curse and spam Fury praying for a frag proc. Half the time people would get up and put a shield on and hold block before the Curse explodes and I get my Frag proc.
Which is why a lot of people play with Crushing Shock, cause you can put pressure on people.EU | PC | AD0 -
Lussura✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »When you learn to play the sorc it can be so strong, I get 50 kill-streaks all the time. It comes down to high burst damage (little luck on cfrags procs) and very good timing. And if I cant win I just streak away. But because its very hard to master the playstyle a lot of people think its a bad class. I actually think sorcs will be the strongest class in pvp but I might be a bit too optimistic.
Sudden burst is not the problem. Sorc can generate good pockets of burst. Problem is the lack of direct instant damage to apply pressure.
For example with my DK, if someone is CCed, I'll charge in and flame whip him down. On the Sorc, without Crushing Shock, I'll have to put a Curse and spam Fury praying for a frag proc. Half the time people would get up and put a shield on and hold block before the Curse explodes and I get my Frag proc.
Which is why a lot of people play with Crushing Shock, cause you can put pressure on people.
Agree'd0