Why Zerging will Reign Supreme in 1.6

Columba

woodsro wrote: »

Grim13 wrote: »

Until Purge ceases to negate the majority of siege damage, especially oil, than there is no hope for a higher skill level to battles in Cyrodiil.

Watching a stream of players rush past a gauntlet of 6-7 oils unscathed... makes me wonder what exactly was passing for discussion amongst the PvP developers, to put it politely.

Your getting exactly to the point i was eluding too, im glad im not the only one that sees this regularly.

Alluding to. Eluding to means to avoid. FYI.

ToRelax

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

The way i see 1.6, you think zerging is bad now, just wait. Zerging will be even worse in 1.6. the sad thing is, small organized groups will no longer have any viable counters to it, as i will explain below.

Lets see here:



1. Negate - They nerfed Negate to uselessness, Absorption Field and the other morph of Negate flat out suck now, not even worth a spot on my bar.

-No more healing when dispelling effects,

-folks can cast all the AOE's they want inside the Negate as long as they are standing just outside of the bubble, those effects are no longer dispelled.

-it no longer dispels things inside its bubble for the duration as new skills can be cast right into it.

-it no longer stuns

so it really Negates nothing which means its useless.

Negate was the the only zerg buster skill Sorcs/Small groups had and now its gone....its obvious ZOS wants this game to be ruled by zerging, else they wouldn't have nerfed one of the main counters to zergs which was Negate. This is the reason so many folks ran it.

The only reason most Sorcs ran Negate on live is because of Zergs...see that 40+ group of pugs charging up the stairs outside Arrius mine? Dropping a Negate on them was the only counter to push them back with 12-15 organized people. Now, 40+ Zergs will have no problem just zerging over people trying to do anything at resources...all this will lead too is 80-100+ man zergs fighting over resources and keeps with no real strategy whatsoever but mindless lemming like zerging.

2. Siege- Considering Siege is still useless IMO because it don't do enough damage to players...i can still shoot a DK at point blank range with a Fire Ballista on the PTS and he can shrug it off like nothing...by golly you can die in 3-4 spells Crushing Shock, Heck Crit Charging with a great sword does more damage then a damn Ballista. I guess charging with a sword is more dangerous than getting shot with a piece of Field Artillery, because you know, being shot with the equivalent of Howitzer just doesn't matter in ESO.

Zerging will be king in 1.6 due to Siege not being strong enough and Negate being nerfed so hard. Siege ignoring Armor is not enough, it needs to do about 70% more damage then it does now and ignore armor, and the Siege itself needs to have less HP...you don't want to die to Artillery fire? then get out of the damn red circle...you should not be able to stand their and heal through it.

Furthermore, 2-3 smart players with siege set up in the right places should be capable of wiping larger groups standing on the flag at resources due to superior strategy, instead the opposite is true and the zerg has the advantage even against players with superior tactical positioning.....Increasing siege damage would put an end to this zerging nonsense that is ruining the game...and force these large groups to use strategy such as flanking the sieges or putting siege down of their own and returning fire....right now, having the "high ground" or superior defensive position doesn't matter against zergs because they can charge right through Field Artillery fire like it doesn't even matter, even on the PTS siege does pathetic damage compared to player skills and its ***(excuse my language) dropping a Negate on their heads from a position of tactical advantage will no longer matter either due to its nerfed into useless state.

As it stands right now, its impossible to wage any type of "Defensive Warfare". Siege doesn't do enough damage to make that viable. 20 players who are good should be more then capable of fending of 80-100 attackers, in a structure such as a castle. afterall, in Middle Ages War fare, taking a castle was no easy feat...first you had to bust the walls or scale them while having boiling oil and siege fire/catapults with archers firing on you...but since siege does such pathetic damage to players, they can simply walk right through it while spamming healing springs and it doesn't even matter. The 20 siege limit for defenders, along with sieges terrible damage to players just makes this problem more apparent. This in turn makes it near useless for even good players to successful defend a keep even with superior strategy. Siege offers no real threat of the attacker taking heavy causalities at the breech because they can just walk right though the stuff like it doesn't even matter.

Conclusion: Long story short, this game will become 100% a zerg fest...and if you want any hope of surviving, you best roll a Sorc and get used to spamming Bolt Escape..hop in, kill someone, Bolt Escape out, use LOS, pop Dark Conversion, rinse and repeat...because outside of running away from the zergs with Bolt Escape, you won't have any other viable options, as Siege don't do enough damage, and dropping a Negate on a zerg now will do little to stop them, on live Negate is a game changer and a very good zerg counter, on PTS, its not even an inconvenience.

If ZOS is smart, they will make siege more effective against players(really should un-nerf Negate too, but thats doubtful), if they don't, this game will become nothing more then who can bring the largest zerg, not who can play the better tactics. I personally do not find that fun at all.

Guide to fighting zergs in 1.6

Step 1 - Slot Meteor

The End

Step 2 - use sword and shield reflect.

Step 3 - I do the same thing and watch ya die since spells only reflect twice.

Are you just pretending... ?

xylena

siege damage is pathetic on 1.6 pts... i can stand underneath oil and self-heal without consequence or worry... i like the suggestion that siege do way more damage but have the engines themselves easier for opponents to destroy

RinaldoGandolphi

Columba wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Grim13 wrote: »

Until Purge ceases to negate the majority of siege damage, especially oil, than there is no hope for a higher skill level to battles in Cyrodiil.

Watching a stream of players rush past a gauntlet of 6-7 oils unscathed... makes me wonder what exactly was passing for discussion amongst the PvP developers, to put it politely.

Your getting exactly to the point i was eluding too, im glad im not the only one that sees this regularly.

Alluding to. Eluding to means to avoid. FYI.

Thats what i mean, i was on my phone, auto-correct for the fail

Asgari

xylena wrote: »

siege damage is pathetic on 1.6 pts... i can stand underneath oil and self-heal without consequence or worry... i like the suggestion that siege do way more damage but have the engines themselves easier for opponents to destroy

The best is one person using the cleanse purge and healing everyone to full.

RinaldoGandolphi

xylena wrote: »

siege damage is pathetic on 1.6 pts... i can stand underneath oil and self-heal without consequence or worry... i like the suggestion that siege do way more damage but have the engines themselves easier for opponents to destroy

Exactly!!! this right here is what i mean!!!! I watched 2 people literally use an emote sit on the on PTS last night and have oil dumped on them repeatedly from above and it did pretty much nothing.

If this stays as is, it all but assures Zergs and Zerging will rule the play style in this game.

Zenimax for the love of God give me viable siege!!!! The fact a 2 hand critical rush does more damage then a piece of Field Artillery is absurd! The zergers don't want me to get viable siege because bunching up....i will wipe you in short order with superior tactical positioning and siege placement....do that now to a group blobbed together? it does pretty much nothing and your forced to abandon siege or die...when in reality they should be suffering massive losses for standing in damn artillery fire.

With the way pop imbalances are right now, this game needs viable siege....Just because you have superior numbers should not mean your zerg can just over run everyone...i want a game where strategical positioning and smart siege placement is rewarded and mindless lemming like zerging is not. I don't find that fun all.

Since siege damage right now is so pathetic against players, Blazing Shield/Shield Stacking and charging through the breech while having oil and artillery fire hitting you will do pretty much nothing whatsoever, and will be the new thing for storming keeps. the fact that Purge is fixed will make this much more apparent....with the 20 siege limit, and siege's pathetic damage to players...yeah we can see where this will end up.

When a Two handed Sword Skill does more damage then a piece of Field Artillery...well you can see where the issues are and why zerging is so popular in this game.

RedTalon

So basically in PTS taking damage from flaming flying balls of fire is still like taking a cold shower and getting hit with large hard rocks is like a pebble still. And that lovely flaming oil is a nice refreshing shower...sounds great to the hive minds swarming around

So who are the queen of blades for each alliance? -ducks and rolls out of the thread-

Goldie

A lot of good points in this thread, but as far as that goes, only about 10% of you have thoroughly tested on PTS, so lets all give the new changes a chance to be tested on the live servers before we jump to conclusions or speculate on what is broken or not. For all we know the new changes will annihilate zergs and cause PvP warfare to become more like actual medieval warfare!

Sanct16

Goldie wrote: »

A lot of good points in this thread, but as far as that goes, only about 10% of you have thoroughly tested on PTS, so lets all give the new changes a chance to be tested on the live servers before we jump to conclusions or speculate on what is broken or not. For all we know the new changes will annihilate zergs and cause PvP warfare to become more like actual medieval warfare!

How so?

RinaldoGandolphi

Goldie wrote: »

A lot of good points in this thread, but as far as that goes, only about 10% of you have thoroughly tested on PTS, so lets all give the new changes a chance to be tested on the live servers before we jump to conclusions or speculate on what is broken or not. For all we know the new changes will annihilate zergs and cause PvP warfare to become more like actual medieval warfare!

With the current state of siege? No way. when folks can emote sit under flaming oil pots and it hardly does anything to them...not going to end well. this needs to be address before the 1.6 goes live.

Siege needs to be given a considerable buff in damage, and in return the Siege itself should have its HP reduced 50% to make siege easier to destroy in turn for doing more damage.

As it stands right now, it will just continue to be a zerg fest, probably a worse one with the influx of new players...these zerg balls are part of the performance problems in Cyrodiil as well....give players Siege with some real punch behind it, and we will be good.

Skills on your bar shouldn't/can't be zerg busters or they would be OP in other scenarios, Field Artillery like Ballistas and Catapults should be the zerg/stacked group counter anyways.

Taking resources and keeps in this game is too easy as it stands now, and part of the reason is because siege does so little damage, and it simply comes down to who has the largest zerg. Which allows people to stand on the flag while taking Artillery fire and it doesn't even matter. That needs to change.

Holding resources and keeps should matter, taking them should require real strategy and be a very tactical affair...right now its not...Defenders are handicapped with a 20 siege limit with terrible siege damage against a Zerg that has no population limit except the pop lock on the server....

I am glad you found good points in this thread, i just hope ZOS really considers fixing siege because if not, were just going to have more of a zerg affair...Siege is the perfect Zerg counter, its just up to ZOS to actually give it the damage it needs to make it so.

WRX

All this crying about siege is nuts. Time some ballista's or add organization. Giving a bunch of noobs 1 shot cannons does not sounds fun.

RinaldoGandolphi

WRX wrote: »

All this crying about siege is nuts. Time some ballista's or add organization. Giving a bunch of noobs 1 shot cannons does not sounds fun.

I'm not saying to give noobs one shot cannons. I'm just saying they need to make siege viable.

The only thing this will effect is people who stand in the red circle should rightfully get hosed, got plenty of time to move out of the way.

Maybe then folks would have to use real strategy like flanking the siege operators instead of spamming heals and purge and walking though it.

After all when you can emote sit while someone dumps flaming oil on you, and hardly does jack for damage, its pointless.

I think making the game actually resemble medievil warfare would be ideal instead of zergs and large blob groups, this would change the whole scope of the game, for the better.

Grim13

WRX wrote: »

All this crying about siege is nuts. Time some ballista's or add organization. Giving a bunch of noobs 1 shot cannons does not sounds fun.

lol Says someone who relies on Zerging.

LazyLewis

Im sorry but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about!

Firstly your saying negate was a technique used against zergs to help beat them? The zergs are the ones using negates! 20 of them.....30 of them..... 70% of EP are Sorcerers.....Why should one ultimate in the game by 3 times as powerful as any other and cost less than a freaking Nova?

Please read this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151074/discussion-of-sorcerer-changes-and-its-impact-on-pvp-mechanics-group-play#latest

Secondly! Siege not powerful? Are you kidding me?

You obviously need to learn correct siege placement and use. Obviously some siege is useless but the combination of meatbags, oil catapults, fire balista and oils all being used at the same time in an inner keep/outpost....I have seen 70+ die to that in 1 minute.

jbcrocks

At the moment, to defend against zerg trains, it's not just about oils when they enter the keep, it's 7-8 oils + stacking wall of elements from the top,sides,stairs, put banners, negate, bat swarm the stairs and you can wipe them with an organized raid and you dont need a big group for that.

Although for 1.6, meteor will work I guess since there aren't any zerg fights so far in pts. Well, a zerg could always be wiped by an organized group. So let's see what will happen

Suru

I just want better camera angles so siege, cause somtimes it really can screw you over sometimes.

Grim13

Suru wrote: »

I just want better camera angles so siege, cause somtimes it really can screw you over sometimes.

How have they not fixed the catapult view yet!? It usually forces me to have a spotter.

Kas

i agree that the negate change does really help zerg balls a lot. further, i hate blobs using healing springs et al.

however, negate will still be one of the best ultimates. just take standard and nova. they will still cost significantly more than negate and apart from their synergy, everythign they do is over time. if you quickly counter even only ONE of those with an absorbtion field, you profit a lot. if there are additionaly things like healing springs inside, even better.

the biggest downfall atm is that meteor has its huge impact damage. tbh, i always liked meteor being useless - instant damage AoE ultimate abilities are never fun. Just wait until groups will start stacking meteors with (voice com) countdowns. it's funny for them a few times, but in the end, it makes for boring fights.

tl;dr: Agree on zerg-ball buffs but I wold glady trade templar ultimates for 1.62+ negates. "not even worth a slot on my bar" is ***, imho. If sorcs need love, it's anything but negate ultimate that needs to be improved / stay unnerfed.

Valnas

Da'mara's gonna spec all those champ points into the meatpackaging and disease spreading tree i can feel it.

Am I the only one who'd be down for pvp in this game w/o siege? It's tactical, but it certainly isn't adding to my immersion to just run around w/ rapid dodging open field siege all day. keeps r cool.

Sanct16

Siege vs Player is no fun either. Siege weapons are more than fine in their current state

Kas wrote: »

i agree that the negate change does really help zerg balls a lot. further, i hate blobs using healing springs et al.

however, negate will still be one of the best ultimates. just take standard and nova. they will still cost significantly more than negate and apart from their synergy, everythign they do is over time. if you quickly counter even only ONE of those with an absorbtion field, you profit a lot. if there are additionaly things like healing springs inside, even better.

the biggest downfall atm is that meteor has its huge impact damage. tbh, i always liked meteor being useless - instant damage AoE ultimate abilities are never fun. Just wait until groups will start stacking meteors with (voice com) countdowns. it's funny for them a few times, but in the end, it makes for boring fights.

tl;dr: Agree on zerg-ball buffs but I wold glady trade templar ultimates for 1.62+ negates. "not even worth a slot on my bar" is ***, imho. If sorcs need love, it's anything but negate ultimate that needs to be improved / stay unnerfed.

Or maybe instead of wasting an ultimate for one banner, just move out of it?

RinaldoGandolphi

Sanct16 wrote: »

Siege vs Player is no fun either. Siege weapons are more than fine in their current state

Making Siege a bit better(actually a threat to kill you) is not going to make the game siege vs player.

do you understand:

A non-bugged critical charge, a crystal shard, etc does more damage then a damn piece of field artillery, how anyone can not think this is fundamentally flawed, is just beyond me.

FFS man, using this kind of logic, a darn .22 should be more powerful then a damn Howitzer...

I am not saying we turn siege into a 1 shot cannon...what i am saying is Siege needs a 30% damage increase, and its effects should not be purgable...in return the siege itself has 50% less HP so it is easier to destroy.

this helps both attackers and defenders.

Defenders can no longer stand on the wall and fire at attackers and just stand in their siege fire with no threat of dying.

Attackers can't stand in the big red circles in the open field and spam purge and heals, while walking though a breech with multiple oil pots and siege. All the while standing on the flag taking taking heavy artillery fire and just healing through it like nothing.

Defenders are already gimped with a 20 siege limit, its pathetic damage makes this handicap worse.

Lets make sieging castles an actual tactical affair, instead of who can get the biggest zerg to run through the walls...how about actually having to kill the defenders on the breech for a change instead of charging through them?

As it stands right now, Siege is really only good for knocking down walls and the occasional meatbag....

You have a 20 siege limit , the size of the zerg is only limited by the damn pop lock on the server(which could be 150-200 for what i know), the fact siege does garbage for damage just promotes zerg fest war fare which is utter garbage.

Everyone complains about the performance problems in Cyrodiil, we all know large zerg blob groups cause it, but when a viable solution is presented to solve that problem, we have a vocal minority that gets mad about it.(Those who zerg)

If folks really want the performance problems in Cyrodiil to really go away, then they need to make siege capable of destroying zergs and stacked groups to encourage folks to be more spread out and fight. When the zerg train can simply heal,purge, etc their way through artillery fire that already has a 20 item limit on it...well....zerging will just remain the same, just on a larger scale.

I can't even remember the last time a siege weapon was in my kill log, infact i don't think i have been killed by siege in months...come on...let be serious here...come on...raise your hand...tell us when was the last time you died to siege other then lag not showing the red circle? be honest now...:)

Huckdabuck

*Raises hand* I died last night on Throneblade NA (while entering the north wall breech at the Chalamo) to 3 oils, 1 fire ballista, 1 standard, and a nasty negate. I was on my level 12 NB though but running with a full raid group. I'm also terribad at da pvp's.

Grim13

Valnas wrote: »

Da'mara's gonna spec all those champ points into the meatpackaging and disease spreading tree i can feel it.

Am I the only one who'd be down for pvp in this game w/o siege? It's tactical, but it certainly isn't adding to my immersion to just run around w/ rapid dodging open field siege all day. keeps r cool.

I think you should keep your fantasies to yourself!

Da Sandman

Oil caddy you the real mvp

Sanct16

On Live Server sieges are perfectly fine imo. Cant speak for PTS.

Asgari

Sanct16 wrote: »

On Live Server sieges are perfectly fine imo. Cant speak for PTS.

No way! .. On live if you pop barrier and shield stack you can go up to the archer guards running through 4+ oils and still have some shield left over. Oil needs to hit WAY harder than it does on live and on PTS. It has limited places it can be placed now and should do way more damage.

tplink3r1

PvP shouldnt be balanced around 1 ultimate.

RinaldoGandolphi

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

On Live Server sieges are perfectly fine imo. Cant speak for PTS.

No way! .. On live if you pop barrier and shield stack you can go up to the archer guards running through 4+ oils and still have some shield left over. Oil needs to hit WAY harder than it does on live and on PTS. It has limited places it can be placed now and should do way more damage.

This x 100000000000000000

RinaldoGandolphi

tplink3r1 wrote: »

PvP shouldnt be balanced around 1 ultimate.

I agree and I understand nerfing negate was better for pvp, but they really need to make siege and oils more effect against players.

MrGhosty

What if instead of making carried siege stronger we leave that as is, but keeps gain some permanent siege (a la mounted turrets in other games) these could do quite a bit of damage and would need to be destroyed by the attackers in order to setup their own siege (as the mounted siege would have strict lines of fire but would wreck anything that got caught in its fire).

I would also support oils being made stronger with their current drop mechanics as long as they couldn't be placed down in the resource towers or were at least blocked by floors. I'm of the opinion that taking keeps should be hard won victories as of right now they are largely just speed bumps.