Please Allow Alliance Ranks To Be Account Wide: Its An Even Longer Grind Than Veteran Levels

Gyudan · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

The first time anyone sees a Level 10 just entering Cyrodiil for the first time, as a Legate or Overlord, or even as a Captain or Colonel, the whole importance of the Alliance Rank goes out the window. The whole thing becomes a joke.

Please consider the following situation that is possible now:
If a player has spent 1000 hours on his main character in Cyrodiil, gets rank 40 with that character and starts a new one, that new character will be able to join the non-vet campaign at level 10. In there he'll be impossible to distinguish from the other level 10s, yet his experience and skill acquired through hours of practice on another character will make him a very strong opponent, regardless of character level.
Does it seem so unrealistic to let him display a "Legate" or "Palatine" rank along with the appropriate insignia (automatic) on the side of his name?

Recremen · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

The first time anyone sees a Level 10 just entering Cyrodiil for the first time, as a Legate or Overlord, or even as a Captain or Colonel, the whole importance of the Alliance Rank goes out the window. The whole thing becomes a joke.

Do you also get mad every time you see a level 10 entering Cyrodiil with Ruby Throne Red and Legate Black armor? If not, you should try to figure out why you arbitrarily value one inconsequential game mechanic over another.

Ysne58 · February 2015

Somehow, I don't think making it account wide is the answer.

Elsonso · February 2015

RoyJade wrote: »

You right Lordrichter, but alliance war skill line is just a pain to level… Perhaps if the skill line (and only the skill line) need less xp to levelling, it will be better.

I get that it is a pain to level. I think of these things like Mount Everest. You go up there with a group (main attempt), and it is a challenge to do it, and you get the cred for doing it. The next time you go with a different group (still you, but an alternate attempt). You could just stand at the bottom of the mountain and say that you have already done this, send a helicopter when everyone else gets to the top. You could do the work to climb the mountain and say that you have now done it twice.

I get that it is hard work, but having two Colonel characters says more than having one Colonel and 7 alts that took the helicopter.

Gyudan wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

The first time anyone sees a Level 10 just entering Cyrodiil for the first time, as a Legate or Overlord, or even as a Captain or Colonel, the whole importance of the Alliance Rank goes out the window. The whole thing becomes a joke.

Please consider the following situation that is possible now:
If a player has spent 1000 hours on his main character in Cyrodiil, gets rank 40 with that character and starts a new one, that new character will be able to join the non-vet campaign at level 10. In there he'll be impossible to distinguish from the other level 10s, yet his experience and skill acquired through hours of practice on another character will make him a very strong opponent, regardless of character level.
Does it seem so unrealistic to let him display a "Legate" or "Palatine" rank along with the appropriate insignia (automatic) on the side of his name?

Your 1000 hour level 40 Cyrodiil experience will tell you to stay with a group of higher level characters and keep your head down. Why should anyone care if you have a main that is a VR 14 Legate? You are playing a Level 10 and, no matter how elite your VR 14 is, it is not a VR 14. That character does not yet deserve the rank because it cannot perform like a character that has earned the rank.

The way I see it is this: Your 1000 hours of investment in your main makes it so that you are more efficient at collecting APs than someone who does not have that many hours in. You are at an advantage already. You have the skills to build a new character up in Alliance Rank, if you want to do it.

Recremen wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

The first time anyone sees a Level 10 just entering Cyrodiil for the first time, as a Legate or Overlord, or even as a Captain or Colonel, the whole importance of the Alliance Rank goes out the window. The whole thing becomes a joke.

Do you also get mad every time you see a level 10 entering Cyrodiil with Ruby Throne Red and Legate Black armor? If not, you should try to figure out why you arbitrarily value one inconsequential game mechanic over another.

Alliance Ranks are not an inconsequential game mechanic. The ranks are earned. It represents time and effort spent by a character in Cyrodiil.

The color of your clothing? Say that I had a friend in the army and he picked up some military gear for me from the PX. This would allow me to dress up like a soldier, but it does not make me a soldier. I would not be a Captain just because he was. Dyes are costumes. Alliance Ranks are not.

timidobserver · February 2015

I am okay with making alliance ranks account bound. It is a massive grind that no sane person is likely to max out on two characters.

DschiPeunt · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

[...]
Your 1000 hour level 40 Cyrodiil experience will tell you to stay with a group of higher level characters and keep your head down. Why should anyone care if you have a main that is a VR 14 Legate? You are playing a Level 10 and, no matter how elite your VR 14 is, it is not a VR 14. That character does not yet deserve the rank because it cannot perform like a character that has earned the rank.
[...]
Alliance Ranks are not an inconsequential game mechanic. The ranks are earned. It represents time and effort spent by a character in Cyrodiil.
[...]

The difference is how we look at these ranks. I see them more as a personal accomplishment, that I (as a person) earned and therefore it makes sense to have them account-wide.
If some legate or overlord logs in with a lvl 10 char, he will definitely know more about PvP tactics and what to do and where to go than me.

Or one could just make the titles char-bound and the PvP skill line progress account-wide and split these up.

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

People vote with their wallets. Grinding out Alliance War to 10 for Vigor, which will be a required component of many stamina builds in 1.6, is completely unreasonable.

As much as I like this game, I'm not gonna play for months on end all over again grinding to unlock something I already did.

Recremen · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

Alliance Ranks are not an inconsequential game mechanic. The ranks are earned. It represents time and effort spent by a character in Cyrodiil.

The color of your clothing? Say that I had a friend in the army and he picked up some military gear for me from the PX. This would allow me to dress up like a soldier, but it does not make me a soldier. I would not be a Captain just because he was. Dyes are costumes. Alliance Ranks are not.

Alliance rank is absolutely a glorified costume, the only things that has an effect on the game are the Alliance War skill lines. In the PvP scene, your rank isn't even an indication of your skill, it's at best an indication of how much time you've dedicated to fighting in Cyro. It's a matter of personal player accomplishment, on account of your characters not being actual people. Are you really trying to argue from the point of realism when your account has cross-faction banking?

I really only care about the alliance war skill line, to be honest, since I value armor color over titles any day of the week, but because it takes eons to gain rank in PvP, I'd really like to see a push to make these things account-wide.

newtinmpls · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

To be honest, I cannot muster up much sympathy for the people who do not want to level Alliance Ranks across characters. It is hard work, but currently it means something.

The first time anyone sees a Level 10 just entering Cyrodiil for the first time, as a Legate or Overlord, or even as a Captain or Colonel, the whole importance of the Alliance Rank goes out the window. The whole thing becomes a joke.

Thank you for saying this so well.

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

Vigor is one of the main reasons pure stamina builds are great in 1.6. This is an alliance war rank 10 abilitiy. The alliance war grind is even worse than vet levels, something which is being removed from the game in the future. Vigor is the single most important thing making stamina builds viable and competitive with magicka builds in pvp.

I decided to dump my sorcerror as I mentioned before, because I do not feel that hybrids are competitive against min max characters in 1.6. The way the game works, it favors dumping everything into one stat, even your ultimates hit harder when you dump everything into magicka or stamina, instead of splitting evenly or hybridizing in some way.

I played a 2h sorcerror for the last year. It was a great hybrid class that worked due to softcaps being in place, allowing me to get several stats to the necessary levels. It was unique, and very effective. In 1.6, this build is garbage compared to builds that go all out magicka or stamina.

As you know, Ive done a considerable amount of testing on the PTS. By far my favorite class and build to play has been the stamina DK. It has not only great damage output, but also great survivability. I enjoyed it so much, I dont even want to go back to my sorcerror, whose hybrid build is now obsolete. The only competitive builds for sorcerror in pvp all do the same thing, max out magicka and play as some kind of caster. I never wanted to play my sorcerror as a "caster" but that is the absolute most effective way to play. Stamina sorcs are not viable for high end pvp.

So back to my original point, the stamina DK I would like to play in 1.6 requires me to re-level an entirely new character, grind through 14 vet levels which I dont want to do, and then get alliance rank 10 to unlock vigor. All this is months of work, just so I can use the build I want to use. Without vigor, the stamina build wont even be that good in pvp and Ill still be forced to use magicka.

Many players when faced with obstacles such as the above simply choose to "quit". I wanted to share this with you, because nobody likes grinding out things they have already done before, especially unreasonable grinds. Alliance war ranks are an unreasonable grind, just like vet levels (which are being removed) after you have already done them once.

I highly suggest making long grinds such as alliance war ranks account wide. You can even do this with vet levels instead of removing them. This will encourage more players to make alts and experiment, rather than look at a horrible grind and just quit.

Gyudan · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

The first time anyone sees a Level 10 just entering Cyrodiil for the first time, as a Legate or Overlord, or even as a Captain or Colonel, the whole importance of the Alliance Rank goes out the window. The whole thing becomes a joke.

Please consider the following situation that is possible now:
If a player has spent 1000 hours on his main character in Cyrodiil, gets rank 40 with that character and starts a new one, that new character will be able to join the non-vet campaign at level 10. In there he'll be impossible to distinguish from the other level 10s, yet his experience and skill acquired through hours of practice on another character will make him a very strong opponent, regardless of character level.
Does it seem so unrealistic to let him display a "Legate" or "Palatine" rank along with the appropriate insignia (automatic) on the side of his name?

Your 1000 hour level 40 Cyrodiil experience will tell you to stay with a group of higher level characters and keep your head down. Why should anyone care if you have a main that is a VR 14 Legate? You are playing a Level 10 and, no matter how elite your VR 14 is, it is not a VR 14. That character does not yet deserve the rank because it cannot perform like a character that has earned the rank.

The way I see it is this: Your 1000 hours of investment in your main makes it so that you are more efficient at collecting APs than someone who does not have that many hours in. You are at an advantage already. You have the skills to build a new character up in Alliance Rank, if you want to do it.

This was actually intended to "protect" new players rather than help the veteran's level 10.
If you are a brand new level 10 player and see another level 10 alone, you will probably want to engage in a fight. If that person is actually a very experienced player, the newbie doesn't stand a chance and might be frustrated to be killed so easily by someone of the same level. Having the appropriate alliance war insignia displayed on the side of the name would help prevent that.
("Oh, he's got a shiny thing on his name that I don't have, maybe I should be careful")

Snit · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

The first time anyone sees a Level 10 just entering Cyrodiil for the first time, as a Legate or Overlord, or even as a Captain or Colonel, the whole importance of the Alliance Rank goes out the window. The whole thing becomes a joke.

A level 10 with a high-rank title simply indicates this is the alt of a player who has spent a *lot* of time in Cyrodil. The title may be incongruous with the character, but it's valid with regard to the person.

newtinmpls · February 2015

This would be the difference between chess and playing a "character". My character isn't going up against "a person"; he (or she) is going up against another character

Zyn · February 2015

Yes to account wide Alliance Rank
No to account wide Character Level

xylena · February 2015

yes please account wide alliance rank!!! no reason i should have to spend months and months grinding out the same skills i already have unlocked on my main (like the vigor heal, now a requirement for competitive stamina builds in AvA)

even without it, i'm sure a brand new imperial race stam DK would be stronger than my AR 35 palatine stam DK because nord passives are terrible... my imperial stamina template hits 32k stamina no problem while my nord main struggles to hit 25k stamina... balanced racial passives would probably be preferable to race changes for a lot of players

Panda244 · February 2015

No please.
If they make Alliance War Ranks account-wide then the only end game progression system is thrown at the window, keep it character-based, as well as achievements. Not to mention it will allow a level ten to have access to blatantly OP ultimates at his level, just no. No no no no no.

xylena · February 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

No please.
If they make Alliance War Ranks account-wide then the only end game progression system is thrown at the window

isn't that what the champion system is supposed to be?

actually i have no problem with lvl 10s using barrier (lol dmg shields op dead horse) and war horn, if anything it will encourage more people to come pvp instead of getting discouraged that they can't do anything until they grind up to v14 centurion II with all AR passives unlocked

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

Level 10s will never be overpowered in pvp... Alliance ranks need to be account wide per faction.

Panda244 · February 2015

xylena wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

No please.
If they make Alliance War Ranks account-wide then the only end game progression system is thrown at the window

isn't that what the champion system is supposed to be?

actually i have no problem with lvl 10s using barrier (lol dmg shields op dead horse) and war horn, if anything it will encourage more people to come pvp instead of getting discouraged that they can't do anything until they grind up to v14 centurion II with all AR passives unlocked

Champion System is sure, and entirely pointless if it's the only progression system at the end of the game, all you do is grind XP over and over. At least in PvP the outcome is never the same, a bunch of variables and a bunch of options. The only people that would want the Alliance Ranks to be account-wide are lazy people, or the people that don't PvP a lot, and I can understand the want for people that don't get a lot of time to PvP. But I for one don't want account-wide ranks because it'll completely blow up any reason to keep PvPing once I get a character up to Warlord. There will be absolutely ZERO reason to enter Cyrodiil ever again, unless I haven't gotten Emperor/Empress, which I have. Not only for this reason, but because it also ruins the point of creating my new EP character to play with EP friends. Why the heck would I want to play with my friends if the character I'm going to play with them on is already max rank in Alliance War?

I hope it never, ever, happens. It will ruin the already bad replay value of this game, if you can max out everything on one character, why make another character, except to try out a new class? It's just dumb. Someone who doesn't have a lot of time to play, I can see why they would want this... But the hardcore PvP people, I can't see them wanting this change because it ruins the point of making another character for PvP, or making another character of the opposing faction. I don't care if Titles are account-wide, so if you meet a level ten in Blackwater you'll know he's a good PvPer if he's displaying a high-ranking title.

But a good PvPer, won't display a high-ranking title, they want every advantage they can get, and if they have a title that displays a high rank, people will approach them with caution rather than charge in and give them free AP... You'd be surprised how much information an intelligent PvPer can get just by looking at their opponent, what weapon their using, medium armor, light armor, what rank, max health, skills they're using, etc. It's a reason why a majority of people wear disguises, every little bit helps, but I'm getting off track. Alliance War Rank should absolutely stay character based, otherwise, I can just get an Aldmeri Dominion character to Veteran Rank 14, Alliance War Rank 50, and have no reason what-so-ever to make another character aside from class, and MMOs that have no reason to make another character except to try out another class, are bad MMOs.

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

You should be doing pvp because you enjoy pvp, not because gaining artificial progression in "alliance rank" means anything.

Garwulf · February 2015

Normally I would not agree with something like this but seeing as ZoS keep changing character specs at such a rate that the One you started with may or may not be the one you would prefer to play now, I is a reasonable request .
This could be done with a check box. Opt in or opt out.
Same for many of the Achievements .
This would then make it an individual choice.
Lets be honest here, with Champion Points being Account wide this would be no game changer.

ToRelax · February 2015

If it goes live as it is now, only a small minority will be able to make competitive stamina builds already.
Now people don't want to allow those who could actually get the skill to make an in their eyes viable build with it because... what?

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

Yep, vigor is pretty much required for a competitive stamina build in PVP. At rank 10, hardly anyone will be able to access it.

Snit · February 2015

It's a question of how alt-friendly you want the game to be.

I prefer games that are very alt-friendly. It allows me more gameplay flexibility, and it ensures that I can work around nerfs more easily. ZOS has made some nice strides toward this, with most gear being account-bound, the champion system, etc.

Opinions differ

Joy_Division · February 2015

I haven't spent a lot of time digesting the mechanics of the champion system, so tell me if I am mistaken.

I have 3 VR14s: "A", "B", and "C". On 1.6, I get 70 CPs.

Do all VR14s get 70? Or do I have to split the 70 amongst them?

Once I start playing and "A" earns a CP, does only "A" get the point or does "B" and "C" get it as well? I ask because I was under the impression these were account wide.

If they are account-wide, can someone who is against the Alliance war ranks being account wide explain why this inconsistency is desirable or even balancing? I mean, my character "B" is gaining real power by playing "A," not just a fancy insignia.

Recremen · February 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

I haven't spent a lot of time digesting the mechanics of the champion system, so tell me if I am mistaken.

I have 3 VR14s: "A", "B", and "C". On 1.6, I get 70 CPs.

Do all VR14s get 70? Or do I have to split the 70 amongst them?

Once I start playing and "A" earns a CP, does only "A" get the point or does "B" and "C" get it as well? I ask because I was under the impression these were account wide.

If they are account-wide, can someone who is against the Alliance war ranks being account wide explain why this inconsistency is desirable or even balancing? I mean, my character "B" is gaining real power by playing "A," not just a fancy insignia.

All your characters have access to your full CP pool. Thus, if you start, like many of us, with 70, then every one of your characters has 70 points to spend.