The Werewolf has improved, but it's not there yet.

draeganb16_ESO

Cody wrote: »

the Werewolf SHOULD NOT be an ultimate, it should be a simple toggle ability.

As I said before, toggable werewolf is not technically possible, this come from a Dev in thread about the 1.5 werewolf's possible improvement.

Cody wrote: »

Not to mention the ridiculous short time it lasts.

Thanks to the new Blood Rage passive, the "ridiculous short time it lasts" is no more. As long as you fight, you're a werewolf, it's fair.



The problem is : The cost, as always, since the release of the game... Don't your remind that it cost 1000 ultimate at rank 1 at the release ?

AssaultLemming

Reduce the cost, increase the light and heavy attack damage and werewolf would be fine.

Domander

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I prefer high cost, high power.

I don't think we have such high power you speak of. You really think that 300 ultimate in 1.6 for an ultimate that just swap your skill bar for something different is fine ? It takes even longer in PvP to built up that much...
Even the Banner of might of DK or Shooting star, considerated the most OP ulti in 1.6 are lower than that. Overload, which is the most similar ultimate, got heavy reduction of cost. From 125 to 75 !

High cost for average power, I don't get your point, that not what Hircine wanted

My experience with WW on the pts is ripping stuff to shreds.. so.. ?

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

the Werewolf SHOULD NOT be an ultimate, it should be a simple toggle ability.

As I said before, toggable werewolf is not technically possible, this come from a Dev in thread about the 1.5 werewolf's possible improvement.

Cody wrote: »

Not to mention the ridiculous short time it lasts.

Thanks to the new Blood Rage passive, the "ridiculous short time it lasts" is no more. As long as you fight, you're a werewolf, it's fair.



The problem is : The cost, as always, since the release of the game... Don't your remind that it cost 1000 ultimate at rank 1 at the release ?

How is it not 'technically possible'? I'm a sorc and my twinkie is a toggle. scamp is a toggle. Bound armaments is a toggle. If they can't make it a toggle then at least let it last longer, revert back tot he original time but keep the reduced feeding and increased eat gain. I rarely ever get to actually maul someone's face off because ww wears off so fast. Usually in a siege I'll transform then jump in and spam fear until I run out of stam, and I have the morph that give weap power based on how many targets you hit. I use claws of life for heals and howl of agony to pin someone down. But more often than not I get myself stunlocked, meanwhile my enemy can break out super easy and can't get knocked down again. But honestly I spend more time stop and go eating than actually enjoying WW.

draeganb16_ESO

Domander wrote: »

My experience with WW on the pts is ripping stuff to shreds.. so.. ?

It's still less than NB with 2H sword or DK (as always) for exemple, except, they used lower priced ultimates and don't have poison drawback. Werewolf is not a powerfull ultimate; with 1.6 now, it's just a good overpriced ultimate. Admit it, 300 is far too much compared to others.

@WarrioroftheWind_ESO : I don't know why it's technically impossible, the developer didn't get into details when he said that.
Werewolf is a pack gameplay in PvP and I know it hard to find one.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

My experience with WW on the pts is ripping stuff to shreds.. so.. ?

It's still less than NB with 2H sword or DK (as always) for exemple, except, they used lower priced ultimates and don't have poison drawback. Werewolf is not a powerfull ultimate; with 1.6 now, it's just a good overpriced ultimate. Admit it, 300 is far too much compared to others.

@WarrioroftheWind_ESO : I don't know why it's technically impossible, the developer didn't get into details when he said that.
Werewolf is a pack gameplay in PvP and I know it hard to find one.

;/ all WWs I know either moved camps, play on alts, or went pasty faced....lone wolf imo....

Ace_SiN

Domander wrote: »

My experience with WW on the pts is ripping stuff to shreds.. so.. ?

WW is beast with 3600 cp(especially since you can use Hircine's Bounty more often), but what isn't by then.. It still doesn't change the fact that WW makes you weaker by stripping most of your versatility for dps that is lower than most burst builds. In most situations it's more advantageous to use another ULT entirely.

WW would be, reasonably, acceptable in its current state if it at least had a cheaper cost. At least then you could use it for some quick CC/Burst and not feel so cheated if you have to switch back pre-maturely(At least in PvP, things can go bad pretty quickly so versatility is king).

Stormy13

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong, I still think it should take up an ultimate slot, I just think we should be able to activate (and deactivate) that ultimate (the shapeshift) at our convenience: No cost, no duration limit.

I agree with you on this except for the cost to use the ultimate. If they put in a no duration I wouldn't mind a little cost to activate it. I don't understand why there is a timer at all, especially a short one. I would like to change at will and stay in that form till I decide to change back. I don't think they will ever do that, but you can always hope...lol

Stormy13

Prothwata wrote: »

my 1.6.2 plan for making ww just right.

-Change WW ultimate cost to 50 and remove the timer avoid transformation spamming.
-Change feral pounce to a taunt/gap closer.
-Change pack leader to werewolf with increased detection distance (no longer a white wolf)
-Allow WW stealth (hunt mode)
-Allow custom coloring of wolf through praying at shrine of hircine
-Bloodrage Changed to a 15% dodge chance
-Call of the pack now reduces cost of stamina costs by 4% increased by each ww up to 20%

Do this and werewolfs will be happy face

I like your ideas. The 50 and remove the timer would be fine by me. WW stealth would be great and custome color is a nice touch.

For me the big thing is the duration that you stay in werewolf form needs to stop. We should be able to change at will. Even if not right away (New werewolf), at least make it an option when you reach max level on your werewolf.

Ace_SiN

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

I agree with you on this except for the cost to use the ultimate. If they put in a no duration I wouldn't mind a little cost to activate it. I don't understand why there is a timer at all, especially a short one. I would like to change at will and stay in that form till I decide to change back. I don't think they will ever do that, but you can always hope...lol

I feel like the timer is tacked on just to make it feel more like Skyrim(which I hate..). There is no need for the timer. Sure in 1.6 it's not much of an issue(especially if there is a Pack Leader), but too much effort is being put into making it not matter anyway.

Blood Rage needs to be reworked again so that it has a more effective use for combat. Personally I would like to see the Werewolf gain a defensive passive instead. Maybe change it to make your roars grant an unstackable barrier. Devour can stay, if the timer is removed, but i think it should boost all 3 of your resource pools either way.

Oh and allow us to use the Black Werewolf skin..

Iduyenn

Look... the problem isn`t the dmg allone for me. It`s the balance between time-damage and efficiency. Even if you manage to do high amounts of dps, you have to substract the time, you don`t do any dmg. And yes, it matters too.

And "As long as you are infight" isn`t correct either, because you can test it: If you don`t get any dmg, you will not get those 3 seconds. In a group with a tank, you will get problems aswell.

Yes, if you have a 2nd WW or a 3rd, you can probabely do a daily vet- dungeon. (I didn`t Test ist).
And in Trials its hopefully going to be fun. But well... more then 2 melees? Yeah...

The problem isn`t the time during a fight allone, it`s what happens betwen a fight.
You can oberve this in PVP.

That is why ppl (like myself) still hope for another system.
- Yes, toggle is doable. But it would require some work...
- Packleader could be buffed, so if you are a full pack (of four), you stay in WW
- You could also just stop the timer, if you are not in combat. (Solution for PVP).
- Or you allow ppl to stack their time to several minutes of WW time. (For example: You have still 40 secs, but during the fight and by devouring critters you could stack up to 5 mins).
- Increase base-time by x minutes. (Just as simple as that... yes).
- Just reduce the cost of the transformation to 0
- You could do some more complexe stuff, wich urges you to manage your time. (Like rage-phases, wich increases your voulnerability). (Or something like the pases in WOW with the droids)

The only argument, why ZOS don`t want us to actualy play as a WW is, that it is to easy, to push only 5 buttons and to not have to make decisions about skills.
But this could easyly be altered, by spellmorphing/spellcrafting and implementing some new spells or allow WW to use certain skills from normal skilllines (as long, as it`s somehow appropriate).

The thing is, ZOS doesn`t let us see behind their real plans and it appears to me, that there are none. At the same time, they have a transparency policy...
We made a great community effort several months ago. We provided input and ideas. But they did their own thing and ignored our most pressing wishes, without letting us know why.

That is the reason, why it makes me crazy...

I would like to have an official, indepth and reflective statement from the lead designers. What are your plans/intention with this particular piece of development.

Alphashado

So I don't pretend to know much about WWs. Not even after I've stayed at a Holiday Inn. But after reading this thread and other WW threads, I have this question:

Is there any viable advantage to using an Ult slot for WW transformation over other meta Ults like VoB or Standard or Nova?

Is WW just a shiny, high cost, short lived toy to play with atm aside from the 15% passive stamina regen?

MuseTheDrunkenDragon

I have a feeling I'm in the minority with this opinion, but I honestly wish they'd implement morrowind-style werewolves

Ace_SiN

Alphashado wrote: »

So I don't pretend to know much about WWs. Not even after I've stayed at a Holiday Inn. But after reading this thread and other WW threads, I have this question:

Is there any viable advantage to using an Ult slot for WW transformation over other meta Ults like VoB or Standard or Nova?

Is WW just a shiny, high cost, short lived toy to play with atm aside from the 15% passive stamina regen?

Yea they are mostly "shiny, high cost, short lived toy to play with", unless you have a bunch of champion points invested(though the short lived part is not always true with 1.6). The cost is what really makes this ULT not worth it. Sure you can find some niche situations where it shines, but overall there are better options without the heavy tradeoffs.

If the cost is reduced, so the WW form can become more reliably integrated into our playstyle, then it would be worth it. We need to be able to pop in and out of WW more reliably if it's to ever be competitive, unless they just give us god mode dps and break the game.. There's no reason for WW to have 300 ult in its current state with the upcoming nerf to ult gain.

Alphashado

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

So I don't pretend to know much about WWs. Not even after I've stayed at a Holiday Inn. But after reading this thread and other WW threads, I have this question:

Is there any viable advantage to using an Ult slot for WW transformation over other meta Ults like VoB or Standard or Nova?

Is WW just a shiny, high cost, short lived toy to play with atm aside from the 15% passive stamina regen?

Yea they are mostly "shiny, high cost, short lived toy to play with", unless you have a bunch of champion points invested(though the short lived part is not always true with 1.6). The cost is what really makes this ULT not worth it. Sure you can find some niche situations where it shines, but overall there are better options without the heavy tradeoffs.

If the cost is reduced, so the WW form can become more reliably integrated into our playstyle, then it would be worth it. We need to be able to pop in and out of WW more reliably if it's to ever be competitive, unless they just give us god mode dps and break the game.. There's no reason for WW to have 300 ult in its current state with the upcoming nerf to ult gain.

Yeah. Most of the meta Ults can be absolute game changers vob or nova or a well placed standard can be the difference between a trial group wiping or defending a keep.

When you put it into that perspective. WW is incredibly underwhelming for a high cost ultimate. Even in one vs one combat.

draeganb16_ESO

Ace_SiN wrote: »

I feel like the timer is tacked on just to make it feel more like Skyrim(which I hate..). There is no need for the timer. Sure in 1.6 it's not much of an issue(especially if there is a Pack Leader), but too much effort is being put into making it not matter anyway.

Blood Rage needs to be reworked again so that it has a more effective use for combat. Personally I would like to see the Werewolf gain a defensive passive instead. Maybe change it to make your roars grant an unstackable barrier. Devour can stay, if the timer is removed, but i think it should boost all 3 of your resource pools either way.

Oh and allow us to use the Black Werewolf skin..

I guess the timer is part of the MMO style of TESO, I don't like it either but it's a bit more acceptable since the Blood Rage rework. We can now focus more on dealing damage than keeping the form, it's a good thing. But, yes, 300 is unacceptable for a weapon switch especially since 1.6 ultimate gain nerf.

I agree with your "Devour" suggestion. At least, make it give Health and Stamina would be a good think for a skill that make you highly vulnerable during combat.

Maybe they'll give the opportunity to give werewolf skin in collection through crownshop, like the mount system. The black werewolf skin already exist for NPC by the way.

@MuseTheDrunkenDragon : It would be impossible to implement that gameplay in ESO, Morrowind's werewolves are very specific to solo playing.

AssaultLemming

Devour should totally give health and stamina

Stormy13

I guess the timer is part of the MMO style of TESO, I don't like it either but it's a bit more acceptable since the Blood Rage rework. We can now focus more on dealing damage than keeping the form, it's a good thing. But, yes, 300 is unacceptable for a weapon switch especially since 1.6 ultimate gain nerf.

I agree with the rework of blood rage and timer stopping while you use devour keeps you in form longer and lets you deal damage. I still think that you spend more time looking at your timer then enjoying you play time in werewolf form. I spent an hour leveling my V1 character in werewolf form (1 through 9). Even though I stayed in form a lot longer then you did in the past, I still found myself worrying about the timer. You don't have time to do anything while in form, but look for my next kill.


If they could extend the timer to at least 3-5 minutes (Max level 10) this I think would make it more violable to play (Maybe even in PvP). With an extended timer I wouldn't mind having the 300 ultimate. I would of course rather have no timer, but I don't think it will ever happen, but at least with an extended time of a few minutes would make it more enjoyable to play.

I agree with your "Devour" suggestion. At least, make it give Health and Stamina would be a good think for a skill that make you highly vulnerable during combat.

If we don't get a longer timer this would be a good idea. What's your opinion on the animation for "Devour"? I feel it takes to long and if your dealing with multiple mobs and have a low timer. You have to wait for devour to finish while your getting hit by the other mobs. It hasn't been an issue for me yet, but I would almost like to have it an instant "Devour" then have the animation.

Maybe they'll give the opportunity to give werewolf skin in collection through crownshop, like the mount system. The black werewolf skin already exist for NPC by the way.

I could see them doing something like that in the crown shop. It would at least be something.

So after playing around again in werewolf form, I found my biggest issue is with the timer at the moment. I would also like to have a WW stealth, but only if they will extend the timer by a large amount. No point in having a stealth for them with this short timer. I would be to busy running around looking for my next kill then go into stealth and plan my next attack. Only option I would use WW stealth on the current timer would be if they stop the timer while your in stealth (Like Devour) and it restarts again when you come out of stealth (Regardless if your attacking or not).

c0rp

Agree....WW is worth NO WHERE NEAR THE COST. I'm fine if they dont want to make the WW any more powerful...but if that is the case then the ulti cost needs to be reduced by a few hundred..

halfbadger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UFJF0tToVc

Ace_SiN

Stormy13 wrote: »

If we don't get a longer timer this would be a good idea. What's your opinion on the animation for "Devour"? I feel it takes to long and if your dealing with multiple mobs and have a low timer. You have to wait for devour to finish while your getting hit by the other mobs. It hasn't been an issue for me yet, but I would almost like to have it an instant "Devour" then have the animation.

I think the animation adds a certain "flavor" to being a werewolf, but I do feel like it should be sped up(mostly around the beginning chewing part of it). Currently though the animation doesn't take into consideration other enemies being present.

Stormy13 wrote: »

So after playing around again in werewolf form, I found my biggest issue is with the timer at the moment. I would also like to have a WW stealth, but only if they will extend the timer by a large amount. No point in having a stealth for them with this short timer. I would be to busy running around looking for my next kill then go into stealth and plan my next attack. Only option I would use WW stealth on the current timer would be if they stop the timer while your in stealth (Like Devour) and it restarts again when you come out of stealth (Regardless if your attacking or not).

I think Call of the Pack should increase the timer by 20% per WW up to 5. I also think that Feral Pounce should always increase your timer by 4 seconds, regardless of distance traveled, and the minimum range should be 3.5 meters(like the other gap closers).

Also, the Pack Leader morph should be more of a defensive/support morph, not a solution to the timer problem. As for the cost, ZOS seriously needs to cut it down to 150 ult, considering how slow it generates now(though I would prefer it to be lower than that..).

Artos_Rudric

I think it's all pretty fine in my experience; I'd like the cost to be a little less for my personal toggle vanity but it goes up very quickly for me which most of the abilities bought and at level 10 with a rank III Transformation. And I also find that werewolf is so much more powerful than my lvl 30 character, and I lead the way in public dungeons transformed so I've got no complaints (except no hair colour/new fur colours, especially the lack of black berserkers!)

Chrlynsch

Artos_Rudric wrote: »

I think it's all pretty fine in my experience; I'd like the cost to be a little less for my personal toggle vanity but it goes up very quickly for me which most of the abilities bought and at level 10 with a rank III Transformation. And I also find that werewolf is so much more powerful than my lvl 30 character, and I lead the way in public dungeons transformed so I've got no complaints (except no hair colour/new fur colours, especially the lack of black berserkers!)

Most of the content at level 30 is pretty tame... when you compare it to competitive pvp... endgame raids it falls short.