The Werewolf has improved, but it's not there yet.

Ace_SiN

I recently returned to ESO after a very long break. I have to say that they addressed mostly all the werewolf issues I posted about almost a year ago(good job ZOS). Sadly, It feels like we are still a combat balance patch behind from being a solid competitive option.

1) Ultimate cost is too high considering how slow it's generated now and how good other ults are for a far cheaper cost.

2) WW still gives up so much versatility. The newer skills are a step in the right direction, but this ult still falls short. The biggest issue with the WW in competitive play has always been its self sustain/versatility. We need the WW to better reflect competitive ESO combat, if giving up our class/weapon skill combinations is ever going to be a viable choice.


Possible Solutions:

Cost-

Drop the ult cost to 150-200 tops. Lets face it, WW has never been god mode dps and honestly it doesn't need to be. The cost just needs to be brought in line with the other ults.

edit:

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The werewolf transformation ultimate should be a zero cost (or low cost, no more than 50 ultimate to prevent spamming) ability that toggles on or off and has an unlimited duration.

A lot of us seem agree this is a great solution fix the cost issue, so I thought I would add it to the OP for the devs to see.

Sustain/Versatility-

1) Allow WW to regain some minor magicka back through heavy attacks. I feel like healing yourself is a bit too "bottle necked" atm, which makes recovering from more consistent burst too difficult. This could potentially get better with the champion system though.

2) WW needs a damage shield baked into one of their skills. I suggest changing Ferocious Roar since it remains the most useless morph that WW have. This would make the the user have to decide between an Offensive howl or a more Defensive one. The breathing room that a barrier provides is the one major thing this ult is missing now.

WW will never become a viable option(outside of luls) until the Skill Line gives the user back some of its versatility.

MuseTheDrunkenDragon

If you aek me, the biggest issue werewolves have right now is the timer. 30 seconds is nowhere near long enough for any sort of group activity. The recent change to the blood rage passive has only worsened things. Personally, I never had an issue staying in form incombat, what with the pack leader heavy attacks and the pounce, it was the bits inbetween fights where I waited for my group to ready up/do dialog where I dropped out of form. Playing as a werewolf is incredibly fun, but its spoiled a bit by constantly having to worry about the timer.

*edit* accidentally hit post too soon on my phone

draeganb16_ESO

I agree with you, the ultimate generation has been nerfed, it's a relative good thing for the overhaul game but not for the WW gameplay.
Werewolves don't need this unless you do something about the cost of the ultimate. Most of ultimates in the 1.6 got a cost reduction, especially the Overload which is most similar ultimate to WW transformation (From 125 to 75 !!! 60% reduction !!!) but not this one, why ??? It's not like this ultimate is overpowered...

ZOS, you know that the cost is still too high, don't tell me that it's a molag bal minion who work on the werewolf gameplay ?!
*Show fangs*

sabresandiego_ESO

I agree that werewolf is alot better but still not there for PVP. It definitely needs more survivability. Either in the form of damage shields or more escape options.

Lynx7386

I keep saying it, and I'll repeat it here:

The werewolf transformation ultimate should be a zero cost (or low cost, no more than 50 ultimate to prevent spamming) ability that toggles on or off and has an unlimited duration.

By choosing werewolf, a player has to give up at least one of his two ultimate slots. He gains no other benefits until the ultimate (which costs too much and lasts too short a duration) is actually used, and once the ultimate IS used, the player loses access to every other active skill or ability in the game outside of the werewolf skill tree, and on top of that is afflicted by poison and disease vulnerabilities.

A werewolf should be able to transform (almost) whenever he wants, and should be able to stay transformed until he decides to toggle back to humanoid form.

XEVENEX

Nope. There is absolutely no reason why everyone SHOULDNT be a WW. You get a straight up 15% stamina regen bonus without any passives, ultimates, weakness to poison, or xp in the skill line. In 1.6 it even says it on the Lycantropy tooltip now.

TLDR
If youre not a WW, youre missing out on 15% stamina regen with no downsides whatsoever.

sabresandiego_ESO

Expert hunter appears to proc on werewolves in humanoid form.

Xsorus

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Expert hunter appears to proc on werewolves in humanoid form.

It might be because Expert Hunter can proc on everyone now..its just increased on the other 3 targets (undead/daedric/werewolves)

Ace_SiN

XEVENEX wrote: »

Nope. There is absolutely no reason why everyone SHOULDNT be a WW. You get a straight up 15% stamina regen bonus without any passives, ultimates, weakness to poison, or xp in the skill line. In 1.6 it even says it on the Lycantropy tooltip now.

When we talk about being a "werewolf" we're not talking about gaining access to the skill line for a measly 15% stam regen..

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I keep saying it, and I'll repeat it here:

The werewolf transformation ultimate should be a zero cost (or low cost, no more than 50 ultimate to prevent spamming) ability that toggles on or off and has an unlimited duration.

By choosing werewolf, a player has to give up at least one of his two ultimate slots. He gains no other benefits until the ultimate (which costs too much and lasts too short a duration) is actually used, and once the ultimate IS used, the player loses access to every other active skill or ability in the game outside of the werewolf skill tree, and on top of that is afflicted by poison and disease vulnerabilities.

A werewolf should be able to transform (almost) whenever he wants, and should be able to stay transformed until he decides to toggle back to humanoid form.

For a cost solution I can agree with this, but this alone wouldn't change how viable the ult is.

XEVENEX

When we talk about being a "werewolf" we're not talking about gaining access to the skill line for a measly 15% stam regen..

Well Id like to stfu and let you guys return to talking about actually being a werewolf but you said measly 15%.

In a game of putting drops in buckets, 15% is a gigantic drop. Remember that when you talk about being a werewolf, because every min/maxer is also a werewolf.

Chrlynsch

my 1.6.2 plan for making ww just right.

-Change WW ultimate cost to 50 and remove the timer avoid transformation spamming.
-Change feral pounce to a taunt/gap closer.
-Change pack leader to werewolf with increased detection distance (no longer a white wolf)
-Allow WW stealth (hunt mode)
-Allow custom coloring of wolf through praying at shrine of hircine
-Bloodrage Changed to a 15% dodge chance
-Call of the pack now reduces cost of stamina costs by 4% increased by each ww up to 20%

Do this and werewolfs will be happy face

Chrlynsch

Werewolf is not an ultimate and should stop being considered one.. it is a skill line that requires a ultimate slot in order to be used. What would happen if you required ever ultimate in the game to invest 20+ skill points in order to be slightly effective.

Ace_SiN

Prothwata wrote: »

my 1.6.2 plan for making ww just right.

-Change WW ultimate cost to 50 and remove the timer avoid transformation spamming.
-Change feral pounce to a taunt/gap closer.
-Change pack leader to werewolf with increased detection distance (no longer a white wolf)
-Allow WW stealth (hunt mode)
-Allow custom coloring of wolf through praying at shrine of hircine
-Bloodrage Changed to a 15% dodge chance
-Call of the pack now reduces cost of stamina costs by 4% increased by each ww up to 20%

Do this and werewolfs will be happy face

That's actually some pretty good changes as well. If feral pounce was changed to a taunt, then I assume it's so WW tanks or off tanks would be a thing. The issue though is that we would still lack self-sustain. A 15% dodge chance, coupled with our heal, would help, but only when we aren't hit by more consistent burst.

I feel like WW could benefit greatly from a damage shield being baked into one of our skills, as to have a more effective "in your face" beserker type of playstyle. Currently we still feel a bit too squishy when we are under pressure.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

I would say make WW a toggle and replace the ultimate with something like the Skyrim finisher moves that does a lot of damage and can outright kill a target say at under 30% health. Grab a enemy and fling him, pounce on him and claw his face off, rip his throat out, or my personal favorite: grab him by the neck and squeeze until his head pops off like a cork.

I wonder if it would be unreasonable to add stamina recovery from eating a body. Say 25-50% of the health gained.

Lynx7386

Dont get me wrong, I still think it should take up an ultimate slot, I just think we should be able to activate (and deactivate) that ultimate (the shapeshift) at our convenience: No cost, no duration limit.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong, I still think it should take up an ultimate slot, I just think we should be able to activate (and deactivate) that ultimate (the shapeshift) at our convenience: No cost, no duration limit.

What if it were able to operate somewhere along the lines of sorc overload. You get bonuses to health, dmg, regen etc when you have a certain level of say bloodlust from dealing damage and eating bodies, but that effect will decay if you do not feed regularly, and once it expires you have to feed again to regain it. I would love to see WW's be more than a side bonus for extra stam regen.

chocotasticrwb17_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong, I still think it should take up an ultimate slot, I just think we should be able to activate (and deactivate) that ultimate (the shapeshift) at our convenience: No cost, no duration limit.

This.

Remove the fear effect on transformation obviously, since otherwise you could abuse the toggle, and have attacks drain ultimate. Then change the abilities that give extra time to generate ultimate instead.

Additionally if it's a toggle it could work with the whole killable NPC's and justice system by making friendly guards hostile to you in werewolf form, but not actually get punished for killing as a werewolf unless you're seen transforming.

AssaultLemming

Would be great if werewolf functioned like overload instead of a timer. Toggle it on/off and have it drain ultimate in some way while transformed.

Chrlynsch

I like the idea of removing the fear from the transformation if it were to be made a true toggle.

Maybe add 50% increase to health/magica/stamina recovery after devouring...

timidobserver

The change to ultimate generation basically puts Werewolf back exactly where it was. With the new ultimate generation in mind, the cost should be around about
120.

Currently my WW is level 1 because the only useful part of it is the stamina recovery.

AssaultLemming

It would make sense to remove the stamina regeneration while human, and vastly increase it in werewolf form in my opinion also. Would make werewolves more tanky, more agile with dodge rolls, and provide an interesting benefit to transforming when low on stamina.

Nacario

XEVENEX wrote: »

Nope. There is absolutely no reason why everyone SHOULDNT be a WW. You get a straight up 15% stamina regen bonus without any passives, ultimates, weakness to poison, or xp in the skill line. In 1.6 it even says it on the Lycantropy tooltip now.

TLDR
If youre not a WW, youre missing out on 15% stamina regen with no downsides whatsoever.

Could someone confirm if fighters guild passive that adds 9% more weapon powe vs werewolfs are working vs werewolfs in human form?

Ace_SiN

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

I wonder if it would be unreasonable to add stamina recovery from eating a body. Say 25-50% of the health gained.

Yea I always thought it was strange that we don't receive stamina from devour. Since magicka is a big part of our survival as well, I would like to see a 25%-50% increase to that when you use devour, with the removal of the timer.

MuseTheDrunkenDragon

Personally, I would be content if they just lengthened the timer. That needs to happen first if nothing else. Not much point in adjusting abilities and stats if its still a struggle to stay in form, if you ask me.

Telel

In pvp the pups and Telel aree of the opinion that the one thing keeping us from wantjng to slot the skill is not the timer, though it's a close second.

No what keeps khajiit and many others from using it beyond ultimate generation is the sheer number of roots, stuns and etc thst are used. Whether it's a bug, the fact you become the modt obvious target or both (imo it's both) the moment you wolf out you usually end up taloned and then stunned to zero stamina in seconds.

As such this one thinks what is required is some form of immunity to such effects. Either a passive of some sort or adding a purging effect to one of the howls would go a long way to making werewolf more viable. In PVP anyways.

Chrlynsch

Telel wrote: »

In pvp the pups and Telel aree of the opinion that the one thing keeping us from wantjng to slot the skill is not the timer, though it's a close second.

No what keeps khajiit and many others from using it beyond ultimate generation is the sheer number of roots, stuns and etc thst are used. Whether it's a bug, the fact you become the modt obvious target or both (imo it's both) the moment you wolf out you usually end up taloned and then stunned to zero stamina in seconds.

As such this one thinks what is required is some form of immunity to such effects. Either a passive of some sort or adding a purging effect to one of the howls would go a long way to making werewolf more viable. In PVP anyways.

An immovable+ buff while in form would make it worth while.

Also a rechargeable damage shield on transformation... think Halo, shield recharges when you don't take damage ... damage shield recharged after consuming devour. Now that would be awesome!

Ace_SiN

Telel wrote: »

In pvp the pups and Telel aree of the opinion that the one thing keeping us from wantjng to slot the skill is not the timer, though it's a close second.

No what keeps khajiit and many others from using it beyond ultimate generation is the sheer number of roots, stuns and etc thst are used. Whether it's a bug, the fact you become the modt obvious target or both (imo it's both) the moment you wolf out you usually end up taloned and then stunned to zero stamina in seconds.

As such this one thinks what is required is some form of immunity to such effects. Either a passive of some sort or adding a purging effect to one of the howls would go a long way to making werewolf more viable. In PVP anyways.

I agree completely. This is one of the things I mean by giving us back our versatility. While I would love for them to just remove the timer or simply increase it, it would do little to make the WW more viable. A timer increase would just kill the tedious micro management involved with using the ult.

The biggest priority, imo, is to not make the player feel weaker for using it.

draeganb16_ESO

I hope the Devs read the whole thread and will do something about high price of Werewolf Transformation in a next patch.

The toggable idea has always been suggested but developers said (before the 1.5) that it was technically impossible to do so. Just a great reduction of the cost would be fine.

In fact, being a Werewolf is only the ability to has a third skillbar at the price of an ultimate slot. And actually, this price is wayyyyy too high for the damage dealing improvement that this skillbar give.

Domander

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

I hope the Devs read the whole thread and will do something about high price of Werewolf Transformation in a next patch.

The toggable idea has always been suggested but developers said (before the 1.5) that it was technically impossible to do so. Just a great reduction of the cost would be fine.

In fact, being a Werewolf is only the ability to has a third skillbar at the price of an ultimate slot. And actually, this price is wayyyyy too high for the damage dealing improvement that this skillbar give.

No it's not.

I think the price is fine, the only change I'd ask for is the duration to be increased a little bit so that it's useful even if you aren't getting hit, or speed up the time it takes to devour. (or both)

I prefer high cost, high power.

draeganb16_ESO

Domander wrote: »

I prefer high cost, high power.

I don't think we have such high power you speak of. You really think that 300 ultimate in 1.6 for an ultimate that just swap your skill bar for something different is fine ? It takes even longer in PvP to built up that much...
Even the Banner of might of DK or Shooting star, considerated the most OP ulti in 1.6 are lower than that. Overload, which is the most similar ultimate, got heavy reduction of cost. From 125 to 75 !

High cost for average power, I don't get your point, that not what Hircine wanted

Cody

the Werewolf SHOULD NOT be an ultimate, it should be a simple toggle ability. 400 ultimate is hard to generate in 1.5; 1.6 it will be even harder. There is no reason for me to use this in PvP or PvE from a max effectiveness perspective, as I can use incapacitating strikes and veil for half the cost. Not to mention the ridiculous short time it lasts.