PVP Meta: Damage Shield Stacking With Solutions

DDuke · February 2015

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.

Wow, someone sure likes generalizing things...

What makes you think every light armor should use shields?
What makes you think every medium armour should spam roll dodge?
What makes you think every heavy armour should be tanking oriented?
What makes you think people should get one shot?

That sounds like one dumbed down game to me.

Look at other MMOs, you've heavy armour damage dealers, light armour squishies without heals or dmg shields, leather wearing barbarians that take damage and thank you for it, leather wearing rogues that use stealth & CCs as survival tools etc

Of course you can dumb things down, but don't expect a better game as an outcome.

If we all wanted to spam dmg shields or one shot people, I doubt you'd see anyone complaining in the forums.

ToRelax · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.

Wow, someone sure likes generalizing things...

What makes you think every light armor should use shields?
What makes you think every medium armour should spam roll dodge?
What makes you think every heavy armour should be tanking oriented?
What makes you think people should get one shot?

That sounds like one dumbed down game to me.

Look at other MMOs, you've heavy armour damage dealers, light armour squishies without heals or dmg shields, leather wearing barbarians that take damage and thank you for it, leather wearing rogues that use stealth & CCs as survival tools etc

Of course you can dumb things down, but don't expect a better game as an outcome.

If we all wanted to spam dmg shields or one shot people, I doubt you'd see anyone complaining in the forums.

Are you able to choose your armor type in "other MMOs" ?
Or is it just your class deciding how you have to play the game right?

DDuke · February 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.

Wow, someone sure likes generalizing things...

What makes you think every light armor should use shields?
What makes you think every medium armour should spam roll dodge?
What makes you think every heavy armour should be tanking oriented?
What makes you think people should get one shot?

That sounds like one dumbed down game to me.

Look at other MMOs, you've heavy armour damage dealers, light armour squishies without heals or dmg shields, leather wearing barbarians that take damage and thank you for it, leather wearing rogues that use stealth & CCs as survival tools etc

Of course you can dumb things down, but don't expect a better game as an outcome.

If we all wanted to spam dmg shields or one shot people, I doubt you'd see anyone complaining in the forums.

Are you able to choose your type in "other MMOs" ?
Or is it just your class deciding how you have to play the game right?

Yes, to both questions.

Come to think of it, perhaps I like it more than what ESO is doing with the open-ended class system.

Atleast you had dozens of different ways of playing the game, instead of just the "one shot people" or "spam dmg shields and/or permablock". If you wanted to play a different way, you'd just play another class.

I used to think this open-ended system could work, and I still do, but it seems Zenimax is not making much of an effort to make it happen.

ToRelax · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.

Wow, someone sure likes generalizing things...

What makes you think every light armor should use shields?
What makes you think every medium armour should spam roll dodge?
What makes you think every heavy armour should be tanking oriented?
What makes you think people should get one shot?

That sounds like one dumbed down game to me.

Look at other MMOs, you've heavy armour damage dealers, light armour squishies without heals or dmg shields, leather wearing barbarians that take damage and thank you for it, leather wearing rogues that use stealth & CCs as survival tools etc

Of course you can dumb things down, but don't expect a better game as an outcome.

If we all wanted to spam dmg shields or one shot people, I doubt you'd see anyone complaining in the forums.

Are you able to choose your type in "other MMOs" ?
Or is it just your class deciding how you have to play the game right?

Yes, to both questions.

[...]

Sorry, I meant armor type (if that changes something), edited that.

DDuke · February 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.

Wow, someone sure likes generalizing things...

What makes you think every light armor should use shields?
What makes you think every medium armour should spam roll dodge?
What makes you think every heavy armour should be tanking oriented?
What makes you think people should get one shot?

That sounds like one dumbed down game to me.

Look at other MMOs, you've heavy armour damage dealers, light armour squishies without heals or dmg shields, leather wearing barbarians that take damage and thank you for it, leather wearing rogues that use stealth & CCs as survival tools etc

Of course you can dumb things down, but don't expect a better game as an outcome.

If we all wanted to spam dmg shields or one shot people, I doubt you'd see anyone complaining in the forums.

Are you able to choose your type in "other MMOs" ?
Or is it just your class deciding how you have to play the game right?

Yes, to both questions.

[...]

Sorry, I meant armor type (if that changes something), edited that.

Not in most MMOs. Classes are RPG character archetypes, the very same we try (and most often fail) to emulate.

If you wanted to play a different class (archetype), you'd have to reroll.

I'm personally fine with that. If I wanted to play a Rogue character, then I wouldn't be wearing plate armour anyhow. If I wanted to play a Mage, I'd be in light armour & if I wanted to play a Battlemage, I'd in heavy armour. And so on.

Usually MMOs do a good job of representing these archetypes (availability depending on the fantasy universe we're in).

Xsorus · February 2015

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.

The problem with that, is 2 of those setups run out of their resource real quick and 1 does not.

madangrypally · February 2015

Teiji wrote: »

Are shields effected by armor and spell resistance?

No. Damage Shield suffers full damage and are not effected by damage mitigation including blocking.

If a player has a 10,000 Point Damage Shield and takes suffers a 10,000 damage hit then the full 10,000 Point Damage shield is removed regardless of the players damage mitigation.

If a player has 25% damage mitigation and a 10,000 point damage shield and suffers a 13,000 damage hit then the full 10,000 point damage shield is removed and the remaining 3,000 damage is now mitigated to 2275 damage taken.

====================================
====================================

Sharee · February 2015

madangrypally wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

Are shields effected by armor and spell resistance?

No. Damage Shield suffers full damage and are not effected by damage mitigation including blocking.

Right, on the other hand, a shield cannot be critically hit, which makes up for a lot of that, especially in 1.6 where crits are common thanks to the impen change.

Snit · February 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Right, on the other hand, a shield cannot be critically hit, which makes up for a lot of that, especially in 1.6 where crits are common thanks to the impen change.

I hope they do something like the following:

- Allow shields to be critically hit
- Permit ultimate gain when hitting shields
- Add diminishing returns if different sorts of shields are stacked
- Leave the big shields beefy

Shields aren't just for PvP. For some builds, they're critical for parts of PvE, too, particularly solo PvE.

Thejollygreenone · February 2015

It seems some are doing a better job at this than others, but I just want to put it out there that I think it would benefit the thread if as a whole we could separate the ideas of 'general sorc/caster defensiveness' from 'strength and relative usage of damage absorbs' altogether.

To do this, we'd have to go in with the assumption that if a change were to be made to make damage absorbs less of a majoritive (I know I'm making up words here) combat mechanic, then compensations would have to be made to magicka/caster builds so as to not lose their competitivity. This much would be implied.

Ignoring that there is a problem with damage absorbs simply because the alternative implication on the state sorcs/casters is a worse outcome is being a bit black and white (a.k.a. a false dilemma fallacy), which is a logical fallacy that is on the same level as the ever famous strawman argument that so many, including myself, is so fond of calling on others.

Although maybe that's a bit of a strawman in itself to bring that up, not to mention the fallacy fallacy. Logic sucks, huh?

EDIT: for various typos

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

Damage shields need to be viable for non min maxed characters. Right now, whats making damage shields OP is that a character can put everything into magicka and not only maximize their damage, but also maximize their damage shields.

Damage shields desperately need to be untied from magicka so that you cant maximize offense and defense with the same stat.

TheLaw · February 2015

I have to agree with Sabre Ali, this is a problem. Unfortunately, ESO devs WANT us to focus on a single stat. I've heard Paul Sage say this multiple times. I'm not surprised that they allowed for scaling of this magnitude, unbalanced or not.

Aziz006 · February 2015

As long as you have resources you attack they(shield spammers) shield. when you run out of resources you watch they attack. My main problem is shields do not proc siphoning attacks and evil hunter

Snit · February 2015

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

To do this, we'd have to go in with the assumption that if a change were to be made to make damage absorbs less of a majoritive (I know I'm making up words here) combat mechanic, then compensations would have to be made to magicka/caster builds so as to not lose their competitivity. This much would be implied.

I've been here since beta. Experience has taught me those 'compensations' will not happen.

sniserb16_ESO · February 2015

With the light armor nerf and health nerf withouth shields you can't be a magicka caster or will instally die. They are fine. Shields disappear in 1 or 2 hits

Thejollygreenone · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

To do this, we'd have to go in with the assumption that if a change were to be made to make damage absorbs less of a majoritive (I know I'm making up words here) combat mechanic, then compensations would have to be made to magicka/caster builds so as to not lose their competitivity. This much would be implied.

I've been here since beta. Experience has taught me those 'compensations' will not happen.

Nor will any real change to damage absorbs probably happen, neither of these expectations mean we shouldn't, as a community, methodically hash out if we believe there is a problem or not and discuss how to possibly resolve it.

Judging by your response, you agree there's a problem but think ZoS won't be able to resolve it cleanly. Even so, I don't see that as a reason to ignore the problem, even if I fully agreed with you. (I only partially agree with your take on ZoS' balancing capabilities, and I've also been here since beta

)

While I personally understand and generally advocate a mild cynicism and/or skepticism, in this case I'm not sure it's productive to the discussion.

I'll leave off with this: The consequences of resolving a problem if done incorrectly should not outweigh the importance of resolving the problem altogether.

Varicite · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Tying all damage shields to a defensive attribute such as health, armor, spell resist...

It would also eliminate caster sorcs as a viable class in some contexts.

To clarify, if shields were tied to health or armor, someone needs to explain how the classic light-armor/ staff sorc is supposed to survive. Between the removal of Crit Surge's heal and the nerfs to light armor and block, Conjured Ward is going to be necessary to stay alive.

Strange, when NBs complained that they couldn't pop 1k shields, Sorcs told them to l2p.

Now that people want to balance the shields (not even get rid of them, just make them slightly less powerful) caster Sorcs will be "eliminated"?

Get real.

Derra · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Damage shields need to be viable for non min maxed characters. Right now, whats making damage shields OP is that a character can put everything into magicka and not only maximize their damage, but also maximize their damage shields.

Damage shields desperately need to be untied from magicka so that you cant maximize offense and defense with the same stat.

Well you can´t reduce their value in that context. Because they serve no purpose if they absorb like 8 or 9k dmg but there are abilities that hit for 12 to 14k on shields because as it currently stands - when your shield breaks you die in 2 hits.

Edit: I might add that i am easily able to break shield stackers on pts if they don´t do it in combination with ball lightning. They just melt and don´t put pressure on me (well i´m an op sorc too).

Digiman · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

NERF SORCERERS THEY ARE USING SHIELDS AS THEIR ONLY METHOD TO SURVIVE BEING ONE HIT, SCREW EVERYTHING ELSE JUST NERF SORCERERS!

Was all I read. A lot of suggestions to nerf something for a particular class skill, no solutions to fix the other stuff. I don't think many people who want abilities like shields removed understand that without it sorcerers get torn to shreds.

With changes to light armor and the lack of survivability the sorcerer has there is little else but build a spec of pure magicka so they can survive in PvP and the sorcerer isn't going to be able to do much against melee except drain tank.

That's not considering stamina using abilities that scale more without soft caps either.

Varicite · February 2015

Digiman wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

NERF SORCERERS THEY ARE USING SHIELDS AS THEIR ONLY METHOD TO SURVIVE BEING ONE HIT, SCREW EVERYTHING ELSE JUST NERF SORCERERS!

Was all I read. A lot of suggestions to nerf something for a particular class skill, no solutions to fix the other stuff. I don't think many people who want abilities like shields removed understand that without it sorcerers get torn to shreds.

NB exists.

Next?

Snit · February 2015

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

I'll leave off with this: The consequences of resolving a problem if done incorrectly should not outweigh the importance of resolving the problem altogether.

You bold this as if to suggest it's a general principle. It isn't. You don't 'solve' a problem by implementing a solution that causes larger problems.

I think active defenses should be powerful, particularly when the cost of a momentary lapse is death by burst damage. The counter to shields should be CC + Burst. That should not be easily performed, or the shield is pointless.

However, there's probably a point at which it's too difficult. When you can stack three different shields at once, you're probably at that point. Returns should diminish on additional shields, such that the second, third, etc provide only a percentage of their base values.

But I'm wary of nerfing sorcs based on the maximized builds of a few people in Cyrodil. If you remove the magicka sorc's primary defense, without replacing it, you've created a worse problem.

If ZOS can find a way to prevent max-gear, perfectly optimized sorc builds from stacking a bazillion health worth of shields, while not nerfing the 90% of the sorc population that isn't those apex predators, I'd be happy. But experience has taught me that ZOS doesn't nerf with a scalpel. They wield a sledgehammer. Their solutions are consistently short-sighted, and it takes them six months to loop back.

That's the view from inside the bathrobe

Derra · February 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

NERF SORCERERS THEY ARE USING SHIELDS AS THEIR ONLY METHOD TO SURVIVE BEING ONE HIT, SCREW EVERYTHING ELSE JUST NERF SORCERERS!

Was all I read. A lot of suggestions to nerf something for a particular class skill, no solutions to fix the other stuff. I don't think many people who want abilities like shields removed understand that without it sorcerers get torn to shreds.

NB exists.

Next?

NBs use shields have an insanely powerful dmg mitigation spell with cloak in 1v1 (we´re discussing 1v1 aren´t we since shields are *** in grp play?).
Oh, and (most) magica nightblades get torn to pieces by stamina builds because they lack a shield against them.

Varicite · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

NERF SORCERERS THEY ARE USING SHIELDS AS THEIR ONLY METHOD TO SURVIVE BEING ONE HIT, SCREW EVERYTHING ELSE JUST NERF SORCERERS!

Was all I read. A lot of suggestions to nerf something for a particular class skill, no solutions to fix the other stuff. I don't think many people who want abilities like shields removed understand that without it sorcerers get torn to shreds.

NB exists.

Next?

NBs use shields have an insanely powerful dmg mitigation spell with cloak in 1v1 (we´re discussing 1v1 aren´t we since shields are *** in grp play?).

Yes, for 3 seconds when it works and isn't completely negated by magelight / detection pots / AoE.

Shields get countered in the same way by... owait, shields don't have any counters.

I wouldn't quite call it "insanely powerful damage mitigation" so much as "awesome avoidance move that may not actually work when you need it to".

But yes, Cloak exists as well. So do Bolt Escape and Encase for avoidance, though. It's not like Sorc brings absolutely nothing else to the table.

Honestly, I'm not even one of the people pointing my finger at Sorcs; I blame shielding mechanics themselves. I just find it completely laughable when Sorcs, DKs, and Templars all talk about "O Woe is me, w/out a shield I can't possibly survive!".

And yet, NBs exist and have been expected to do it w/out shields all this time. If NBs so much ask for a shield (or heaven forbid, mention that Cloak is STILL broken...) they are typically shouted down, told to L2P, told to quit asking for stuff other classes have, etc.

If 1 out of the 4 classes is expected to make due w/out a shield or reliable defense (and has been doing pretty darn well in PvP w/ only the Resto shield), I suppose I have a lot of trouble seeing why the other 3 classes absolutely NEED to have shields of their own.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

Mostly just playing devil's advocate here; I don't want the shields removed, just toned down.

Snit · February 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Shields get countered in the same way by... owait, shields don't have any counters.

CC + Burst.

It's the same dilemma sorcs have faced against DK's for a long time. Finding a way to get projectiles past reflect and bursting enough so they don't just heal to full. It's a bad matchup, but it's not impossible. CC is the counter to a whole lot of things.

Varicite · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Shields get countered in the same way by... owait, shields don't have any counters.

CC + Burst.

It's the same dilemma sorcs have faced against DK's for a long time. Finding a way to get projectiles past reflect and bursting enough so they don't just heal to full. It's a bad matchup, but it's not impossible. CC is the counter to a whole lot of things.

Yes, but CC is the counter to almost everything. You'd likely be trying to CC and burst whether your opponent is shielded or not.

The only difference is that instead of putting them into kill range, you just popped a couple shields and now they are shielding up again.

It's not as though your opponent can't also CC you, break their own CC, or run Immovable (I know, it's nerfed now). Shield and heal back up, etc. They aren't target dummies (okay, some are) that just stand there slack-jawed.

I don't know if just saying to do what you'd normally do, but slower and at the cost of WAY more resources, is what I'd really call a "counter", per se.

Certainly not in the manner that detection pots completely wreck Cloak or healing debuffs wreck heals.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.

The problem with that, is 2 of those setups run out of their resource real quick and 1 does not.

No, 2 of those have different setups and thus different resource / needs and pools.

Pretty sure a Medium armor build will keep Stamina better than a magicka based build.

Heavy probably has better health options.

Each armor, each class, each skill was built with particular purposes in mind.

Sinking points into once stat and wondering why there is less of another is like comparing apples to doorknobs.

Thejollygreenone · February 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.

The problem with that, is 2 of those setups run out of their resource real quick and 1 does not.

No, 2 of those have different setups and thus different resource / needs and pools.

Pretty sure a Medium armor build will keep Stamina better than a magicka based build.

Heavy probably has better health options.

Each armor, each class, each skill was built with particular purposes in mind.

Sinking points into once stat and wondering why there is less of another is like comparing apples to doorknobs.

In response to the bolded sentence: That's the intention certainly, but the jury is still out on whether or not that is actually the case.

My feedback on whether or not "...a Medium armor build will keep Stamina better than a magicka based build." :

As a long-time stamina player myself, the only way I've been able to even somewhat manage my stamina to have enough for defensive actions (mainly dodging) while keeping up some semblance of damage with abilities was by keeping some magicka damaging abilities handy for more pressure than light attacks without strain on my stamina pool, stacking stamina regen passives, chugging potions, and throwing out heavy attacks where possible.

Only through all that together have I been able to keep up with any sort of relatively good magicka users, and that's not even to mention what poor excuses for healing I have. Now in 1.6 since many of those magicka damaging abilities that I used to regulate my stamina bar have been turned into stamina morphs, my stamina management is actually much worse than in 1.5, which was pretty poor to begin with.

Furthermore, without switching classes, and even if I did switch classes, I can see no conceivable changes to make beyond the 120 champion point unlock in 'The Lady' constellation which will take everyone some time to get which would possibly allow med armor stamina builds have superior stamina management than magicka light armor builds. That one champion point unlock would be the saving grace of stamina builds, and it's so damn strong that I think it needs to be nerfed. No one option should be the only viable option, which is one problem I have with damage absorbs for magicka builds.

The fact that a magicka build can save stamina simply for immovable and core defenses like blocking dodging and cc-breaking will inevitably leave them with more stamina to use than stamina builds, as far as I can tell from my own experiences. Though they are just one player's experience after all

And as a side comment to the bit about heavy armor, I believe when he said resources he meant stamina/magicka specifically, though I could be wrong.

EDIT: for typos and clarity