Sorc 1.6 Discussion

Gorthax

Pyatra wrote: »

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AssaultLemming wrote: »

I played a pet build on the pts for a few hours last night, magicka build, twilight and willows for gear, soul shine jewelry, destro resto staffs. Heals bar: empowered ward, combat prayer, healing springs (but the longer duration morph) Both pets. Dps bar.crushing shock, daedric prey, dark bargain or whatever it's called, magicka morph.

Basically I was soloing craglorn to see how this build compared, I find craglorn a good place to test a build for trash clearing and also for the occasional named mob.

The first thing that is clear is pets still need to do more dps. They take up 4 spell slots, and 2 of my other spells are really only being used for pets benefit. They simply don't do enough dps to be worth the spots, even watching them take down a single jackal is ridiculously slow.

The second thing is they still need more hps because you spend your whole time healing them or buffing them, if you stop for a second they die, and they need a health bar visible at all time preferably on the UI, not floating above their heads. They should show up like party members. You should be able to see the buffs that they have and their hps. This is basic pet management stuff.

Third: daedric prey. This spell needs to designate the target for pets to attack, otherwise it is totally useless. When you cast it pets should attack that target.

That's it really, more dps, more hps, easier targeting with daedric prey and they might be worth using.

The Daedric Prey is a good idea but I've been thinking about this skill.... I have to round some people up and test something on the PTS tonight.

I dont think they stack for pet damage if multiple people cast it. Then again this is ZoS so they probably over looked it.

Something that would help pets out A LOT (my opinion) is make them attack faster. You want pets to be competitive then give them faster attacks. Watching the tank pet sit there thinking about what to do in between attacks is so freaking hilarious I usually die in a fight from laughing at how stupid their A.I. is. That one change a lone would go a long way to seeing them be more viable.

That or make them only cost ONE skill slot.

EDIT: Or give the tank pet a charge skill so when people get away from the pets range they charge to it and do a knock down? I mean come on, you want to force us into a pet build then make pets enticing! Make me want to say "HE11 YEA I WANT THAT PET!!!!" Instead I say "Well I tried it and its now being removed."

Give pets other things to do besides sit there and look stupid while they wait for their attack to come off of cool down. Yes they are stronger (not by much) compared to the live version but they still offer no reason to use them. In order to make them decent I have to sacrifice 6 slots.....that leaves me with 5. Also need to shield stack to stay alive so thats 4 left over (healing ward). 3 left over if you toss in harness Magicka, then you get heal spells to heal your pets as they die so quick in pvp. Now you have 1 slot left unless you went healing springs, rapid regen, and combat prayer. Now you have no slots left.

EDIT 2: Forgot to mention that, again, without access to the other sets in the game I can not truly comment on this. This is all coming from my current live setup gear wise. Which on live works out really well. Just clearly doesnt translate to pts well with 1.6 changes.

sniserb16_ESO

The problem for pets is they come too late all the time. PvP PvE (trash Mobs) at the moment the pets arrive the target is already dead

ssewallb14_ESO

I'm up to 12k against WBs. Crushing shock, crystal frags, curse, clanfear, twilight, meteor. Getting surprisingly close numbers from curse, entropy, and inner light, though it probably comes down to crystal frags luck. Against a single target that can't teleport around pet damage is actually a lot more consistent than crystal frags. The main thing was switching atro with meteor. If you take cost into account meteor might actually surpass standard at this point for dps.

Although this seems to be decent dps I'm concerned it will drop severely in situations that require mobility. The twilight is probably fine but I can see the clanfear running around aimlessly in certain fights. Also I'm probably going to have to resort to recasting both pets in "run for cover" type dynamics.

Snit

If pets were not toggles, you would not have to devote half your slots to them. With so many toggle skills, build variety is stifled.

Pancake-Tragedy

Snit wrote: »

If pets were not toggles, you would not have to devote half your slots to them. With so many toggle skills, build variety is stifled.

This is the biggest problem with pet builds, in my opinion. I feel that after conjuring a pet, it should stay out until killed (or when removed from the slot to prevent exploiting).

I've often wondered if it would be better just to keep the twilight on both bars, and only keep the familiar on your main dps bar and cast it when needed, since you get back magicka when it despawns but you lose a GCD.

Erock25

I think one of the biggest issues with the stamina sorc is that we have no viable stamina regen and are forced to rely on heavy attacks a lot more than other classes. Dark Deal is very poorly designed as it is counter intuitive for a melee character to use a channeled ability. I would love if they changed Dark Deal to an instant with a steeper conversion penalty and/or have it be stamina over time regen for upfront high cost magicka.

With resto staffs going to spell dmg, stamina sorcs also lose the availability of high weapon power buffing their resto heals. It leaves stamina sorcs in a place where their only real heals potential heals are rally and critical surge and this combination is double nerfed from 1.6. For starters, the weapon dmg buff no longer stacks, so it is very wasteful to use both rally and crit surge. Also, crit surge needs to be a reliable and powerful heal. It is unacceptable that there is a significant change to lose your crit surge charges on low dmg hits. There needs to be a method of taking the largest hit over the past second or add up all the dmg or some other form of balancing. It is too important of a skill to leave up to a terrible RNG chance.

It is also a shame that stamina sorcs have no dmg dealing class stamina abilities. Daedric Tomb could easily be changed to Daedric Sweep or something that does cone aoe daedric dmg in front of you. Hell, I'd even take a stamina pet at this point. Just give me anything that does dmg that cost stamina that has a chance of making it into my stamina build.

Erock25

Magicka sorc seems to be in a good spot for solo pve. Didn't spend much time with this build at all and was doing alright soloing craglorn group dungeon trash. Made a ton of mistakes in that video and was still managing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW8zEdJ67ZM

angelyn

I think I've found out why I felt so squishy in PTS.I performed a comparison exercise between base stats on live and PTS in this thread:
here

All the wordy bits can be found in that thread, but here are the pics posted, which show in my humble calculations how the basic stats scaled up in different ratios. Regen seems to have scaled by more than 10, but max health/magicka/stamina by less than 10.Heavy and Medium look like they have scaled 1:4 and light armour at 1:2.**I don't know if we get the sam ratios for higher level characters. There may be some kind of sliding scale involved.(*Note- I only compared a chest piece here so perhaps a full set might have different ratios)Once my character is copied over (EU), I plan to do the same exercise. *As I've said in my thread;I'm not a mathematician or a dev, these are just some calculations I've done on a level 3 character.

Gandogal

"Sorcerer

Surge: All ranks and morphs of this ability now provide healing when you land a critical strike. Also, the healing cooldown has been reduced to 0.25 seconds from 1 second."

Very cool patch notes! also another buff to the lightning ulti. pretty harsh nerv of negate tho. but im hopefulmage can do more after 1.6 than just negate so **** it ^^.

ItsRejectz

Like how they said in the live stream that they heard our calls and buffs were coming in 1.6.1 and then they nerf negate in it lol

sput4ueb17_ESO

trials would be hard to try without negate...

evan.pardoub17_ESO

Haven't read all comments, but I want to make a point.

I think the changes to Sorc are actually fantastic.
-Everyone is extremely upset about critical surge. BUT--sorcs have a huge shield, and now pets taunt. So if you play that build right, you end up with effectively twice as much health (the pet is a damage sink), a huge spammable shield, a massive magicka pool, and a (now extremely long lasting) armor boost. Basically, since soft caps are gone, sorcs will have giant (GIANT) pools of magicka, pets which absorb tons of damage (now that they taunt), significantly improved DPS capabilities like Curse, and (given the large improvement of healing staff abilities relative to Templars), sizable sustainable healing abilities.

On top of this, Sorc tanks just got beefy as well. Lightening form lasts forever. Pets can now be a viable damage sink--tanks can taunt up a room and the pet will draw agro on all the enemies focusing on the tank. The tank can now focus on sel/party heals, agro maintenance, and spamming the sorc shield spell. Throw up a few curses in there for AOE/pet DPS and you have a giant pet-based tank.

Our old sorc build will no longer work--Crit surge no longer helps with self heals (though it will still help to make sorcs elite with a healing staff). However, a build redesign should mean you no longer need the crit surge at all.

I'd very much appreciate all feedback....just don't get super angry. I'm just here cause I really like this game (flaws and all).

Holycannoli

What's up with nerfing negate like that tho.

Erock25

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

Haven't read all comments, but I want to make a point.

I think the changes to Sorc are actually fantastic.
-Everyone is extremely upset about critical surge. BUT--sorcs have a huge shield, and now pets taunt. So if you play that build right, you end up with effectively twice as much health (the pet is a damage sink), a huge spammable shield, a massive magicka pool, and a (now extremely long lasting) armor boost. Basically, since soft caps are gone, sorcs will have giant (GIANT) pools of magicka, pets which absorb tons of damage (now that they taunt), significantly improved DPS capabilities like Curse, and (given the large improvement of healing staff abilities relative to Templars), sizable sustainable healing abilities.

On top of this, Sorc tanks just got beefy as well. Lightening form lasts forever. Pets can now be a viable damage sink--tanks can taunt up a room and the pet will draw agro on all the enemies focusing on the tank. The tank can now focus on sel/party heals, agro maintenance, and spamming the sorc shield spell. Throw up a few curses in there for AOE/pet DPS and you have a giant pet-based tank.

Our old sorc build will no longer work--Crit surge no longer helps with self heals (though it will still help to make sorcs elite with a healing staff). However, a build redesign should mean you no longer need the crit surge at all.

I'd very much appreciate all feedback....just don't get super angry. I'm just here cause I really like this game (flaws and all).

There is a lot of information wrong in this post. Saying that Sorcs are strong because magicka pools are uncapped means nothing. It's weird reading your post with all those massives, giants, extremely, and other hyperbole. Also, nearly all your info on pets is wrong. They still have no where near enough HP to 'absorb tons of damage' and pets will not taunt at all in group situations. I honestly wonder if you even play a sorc or if you just came in here trying to knock us down a peg.

xherics

When PETs taunt, they die like in 2 seconds.... Just tested it out... So, this is ***.

Septimus_Magna

@angelyn‌
Light armor is definitely a lot more squishy than before. I have tried some soloing in light armor and its pretty though, especially the wasp packs in craglorn. Usually you need meteor or storm atronach to survive.

The problems I encountered with armor for sorcs:
-shields scale of magicka and are not affected by armor and spell resist.
-lightning form is a lot better but it doenst add anything to shields which sorcs need because we have no reliable self heals.
-bound armor is underwhelming, especially because you need it on both bars.
-blocking drains stamina quickly so its impossible to block multiple attackss with a magicka build.

Options for sorcs to gain some survivability:
-Mainly light armor with all points in magicka to get very strong shields, no need for any armor or spell resist. Good dps and good survivability as long there is magicka so most likely option.
-Mainly medium armor with points in health, magicka and stamina with high weapon crit to get self heals from crit surge and added armor and spell resistance from lightning form. Average dps but survivability drops when you run out of stamina or magicka.
-Mainly heavy armor with points in health and stamina with S&B and lightning form. Low dps but good survivability as long there is stamina.

For pvp this is will even be more important because it forces light armor sorcs to put everything in magicka to get strong shields and keep the shields up so your health doenst take any damage. This almost completely removes the need for armor and spell resistance which is not good imo. It would be nice to see 5L+2H builds for example but I just dont think it will be any good in 1.6 because armor rating doesnt add much for sorcs.

angelyn

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@angelyn‌
Light armor is definitely a lot more squishy than before. I have tried some soloing in light armor and its pretty though, especially the wasp packs in craglorn. Usually you need meteor or storm atronach to survive.

The problems I encountered with armor for sorcs:
-shields scale of magicka and are not affected by armor and spell resist.
-lightning form is a lot better but it doenst add anything to shields which sorcs need because we have no reliable self heals.
-bound armor is underwhelming, especially because you need it on both bars.
-blocking drains stamina quickly so its impossible to block multiple attackss with a magicka build.

Options for sorcs to gain some survivability:
-Mainly light armor with all points in magicka to get very strong shields, no need for any armor or spell resist. Good dps and good survivability as long there is magicka so most likely option.
-Mainly medium armor with points in health, magicka and stamina with high weapon crit to get self heals from crit surge and added armor and spell resistance from lightning form. Average dps but survivability drops when you run out of stamina or magicka.
-Mainly heavy armor with points in health and stamina with S&B and lightning form. Low dps but good survivability as long there is stamina.

For pvp this is will even be more important because it forces light armor sorcs to put everything in magicka to get strong shields and keep the shields up so your health doenst take any damage. This almost completely removes the need for armor and spell resistance which is not good imo. It would be nice to see 5L+2H builds for example but I just dont think it will be any good in 1.6 because armor rating doesnt add much for sorcs.

@Septimus_Magna‌ These are some well thought out suggestions. I will try 1st option, with hardened ward.(ditching empowered ward and pets) I may keep crit surge on for rubbish heals but hopefully with super shield I won't need to heal much. Woe betide me if my sheild drops and I haven't refreshed it!Goodbye bound armour-hello 2 fre slots! PS I think you should post your comment in the 1.61 thread as well, since you really lay the facts out logically without putting too much emotion into the thread. I know I'm guilty myself of bolding certain points and using many exclamation marks:P

Thanks again for ideas. I'm not an expert player, just need a build that I can stay alive solo in an do enough dps to run dungeons etc. If I'm not skilled enough for option 1 I will try option 2:)

Septimus_Magna

@angelyn‌
Empowered ward or Hardened ward will be a though choice for me, I dont like playing with pets but I think dual pet build with 12% magicka increase from the Necropotence 5-set will be very good for pve dps. For solo/pvp builds hardened ward will be better so I hope I can make a high pve dps build work without pets. You can also use Entropy for some self heals to keep your heal 100% underneath your shields, thats what most pvp sorc builds use on PTS right now.

evan.pardoub17_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

Haven't read all comments, but I want to make a point.

I think the changes to Sorc are actually fantastic.
-Everyone is extremely upset about critical surge. BUT--sorcs have a huge shield, and now pets taunt. So if you play that build right, you end up with effectively twice as much health (the pet is a damage sink), a huge spammable shield, a massive magicka pool, and a (now extremely long lasting) armor boost. Basically, since soft caps are gone, sorcs will have giant (GIANT) pools of magicka, pets which absorb tons of damage (now that they taunt), significantly improved DPS capabilities like Curse, and (given the large improvement of healing staff abilities relative to Templars), sizable sustainable healing abilities.

On top of this, Sorc tanks just got beefy as well. Lightening form lasts forever. Pets can now be a viable damage sink--tanks can taunt up a room and the pet will draw agro on all the enemies focusing on the tank. The tank can now focus on sel/party heals, agro maintenance, and spamming the sorc shield spell. Throw up a few curses in there for AOE/pet DPS and you have a giant pet-based tank.

Our old sorc build will no longer work--Crit surge no longer helps with self heals (though it will still help to make sorcs elite with a healing staff). However, a build redesign should mean you no longer need the crit surge at all.

I'd very much appreciate all feedback....just don't get super angry. I'm just here cause I really like this game (flaws and all).

There is a lot of information wrong in this post. Saying that Sorcs are strong because magicka pools are uncapped means nothing. It's weird reading your post with all those massives, giants, extremely, and other hyperbole. Also, nearly all your info on pets is wrong. They still have no where near enough HP to 'absorb tons of damage' and pets will not taunt at all in group situations. I honestly wonder if you even play a sorc or if you just came in here trying to knock us down a peg.

Not trying to take anyone "down a peg." Maybe trying to be overly positive.

I do have a question--you say pets won't taunt at all in groups. Is this true if you have a taunt equipped. For example, if you're a tank and you taunt someone, will the pet then pull agro since you have taken over the hate list? I haven't gotten a clear answer on this mechanic.

Not "massive" magicka pools, then, but sorcs will be able to achieve higher pools.

Pets do have a significant amount of HP. They just need to be healed or they die really quickly like any other character. So healing the pets will need to be a part of the build.

Either way, I see several positive changes to the class. I'll be interested to see how it plays out--I imagine that builds will change a lot, but that the class will become more viable.

sabresandiego_ESO

Stamina Sorc does not really work in PVP. You NEED to have damage shields in PVP and both hardened ward and annulment:harness magicka scale off magicka. The only way to make stamina sorcs work is to go hybrid and spread evenly between magicka and stamina, while wearing top quality gear such as arena and warlock and having 150+ champion points. Anything less than this, hybrid build wont work, and stam build will die too easily due to no reliable shield and weak shields due to low magicka.

Snit

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

BUT--sorcs have a huge shield...

That shield is nice, and it's going to be our primary defense now that Crit Surge has been nerfed (and it's still nerfed in 1.61). For that reason, I don't expect us to keep it. There are loud complaints from folks who expect squishies to be easily squished in PvP. That sort of feedback frequently prompts changes for us.

ZOS has been nerfing sorcs regularly for nearly a year. It appears to be part of their patch QA process I won't believe we're ok until we get to console release.

Snit

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Stamina Sorc does not really work in PVP. You NEED to have damage shields in PVP and both hardened ward and annulment:harness magicka scale off magicka. The only way to make stamina sorcs work is to go hybrid and spread evenly between magicka and stamina, while wearing top quality gear such as arena and warlock and having 150+ champion points. Anything less than this, hybrid build wont work, and stam build will die too easily due to no reliable shield and weak shields due to low magicka.

Yeah, it would be a lot better for stamina builds (or hybrids) if shields scaled off health. Your build would get better. For classic caster sorcs, it would be a disaster.

I do wish ZOS would support hybrid builds better. With the removal of the soft-caps, that niche seems pretty narrow. More build variety is better for everyone. But I wouldn't want to see them support hybrid builds (or stamina builds) by more nerfs to magicka users.

Snit

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

I do have a question--you say pets won't taunt at all in groups. Is this true if you have a taunt equipped.

Pets won't taunt unless the sorc is the only player on the monster's hate list. It's in the 1.6 patch notes.

evan.pardoub17_ESO

Snit wrote: »

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

I do have a question--you say pets won't taunt at all in groups. Is this true if you have a taunt equipped.

Pets won't taunt unless the sorc is the only player on the monster's hate list. It's in the 1.6 patch notes.

So--does a taunt (as used by a tank) cause the tank to be the only player on the hate list? OR, does the taunt put the player at the top of the list? Pretty specific and I've found no mention online. Thanks for clarifying this!

OtarTheMad

Snit wrote: »

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

BUT--sorcs have a huge shield...

That shield is nice, and it's going to be our primary defense now that Crit Surge has been nerfed (and it's still nerfed in 1.61). For that reason, I don't expect us to keep it. There are loud complaints from folks who expect squishies to be easily squished in PvP. That sort of feedback frequently prompts changes for us.

ZOS has been nerfing sorcs regularly for nearly a year. It appears to be part of their patch QA process I won't believe we're ok until we get to console release.

Totally agree, which is why I said earlier that I found it funny everyone who was saying positive things about Sorcs mentioned the "great shield we have". With all the complaints... ZOS will probably nerf it. I will have come up with some back up build to counter it but idk if it's worth the effort. We'll see.

Erock25

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

I do have a question--you say pets won't taunt at all in groups. Is this true if you have a taunt equipped.

Pets won't taunt unless the sorc is the only player on the monster's hate list. It's in the 1.6 patch notes.

So--does a taunt (as used by a tank) cause the tank to be the only player on the hate list? OR, does the taunt put the player at the top of the list? Pretty specific and I've found no mention online. Thanks for clarifying this!

A taunt puts you at the top of the list. Therefore, your pets should never get aggro in group situations. In their current form, there's no reason for any pretty besides greater atronach to get aggro anyways as they are easily one shot in group content.

Snit

evan.pardoub17_ESO wrote: »

So--does a taunt (as used by a tank) cause the tank to be the only player on the hate list?

The 'Hate List' is everyone the monster knows about. A taunt puts the tank on top of that list. If there is more than one player involved in a fight, pets will not taunt.

Holycannoli

Is there any point to critical surge now over power surge? Yes you get a little more healing if you're a stamina build but power surge also boosts your class abilities and it lasts longer so why would you not take it?

Nightreaver

Holycannoli wrote: »

Is there any point to critical surge now over power surge? Yes you get a little more healing if you're a stamina build but power surge also boosts your class abilities and it lasts longer so why would you not take it?

I don't have a Stamina build so maybe someone with one can answer that. Are there any Class Magicka damage abilities that are that much better for someone with a Stamina build to make it worth giving up a 50% increase in healing?

And now that both versions of Surge have Healing as a secondary effect I have a couple more questions based on what was posted in the 1.6 Patch notes

Abilities that apply a secondary effect, such as Caltrops, will only snare the 6 targets who take full damage.

1) Does this mean that the healing would only be effected by the first 6 targets?

2) And if that is the case then is there any reason to keep the CD on the effect?

XEVENEX

Holycannoli wrote: »

Is there any point to critical surge now over power surge? Yes you get a little more healing if you're a stamina build but power surge also boosts your class abilities and it lasts longer so why would you not take it?

The real question is, why does anyone think either is a good choice (besides stamina builds)? They should be using Degeneration as it does everything that surge does better, with damage and mages guild passives on top.