Impenetrable Reworked in 1.6

Manoekin

thelordoffelines wrote: »

This really pisses me off. As a sorc, ive been sitting here hoping they would change impenetrable so crit surge would be useful.... Well nps they're going to take crit surge away from magic sorcs so we won't see any result from this. Thanks ZOS for once again *** over sorcerers.

Where did you get that they're taking it away from magicka sorcs?

Mauz

Thats one more sign that ZoS is completely mindless of PvP.

Sorc can already now escape from all situations even from the middle of a zergball.This will make them nearly unkillable in each and every situation. In combination with its spamable class shield it will become the more tanky the more dps it has. A permablocking class cannon with insane autoheal without even having the need of a healing skill in the bar. If this goes live sorc will definitely become the new fotm in PvP.

At the same time this nerfs all kinds of 2h charge builds wich were the best counter of BE sorcs to death. Shadowly disguise morph will become completely useless. Additionally this is an insane nerf for all stealth based builds. They will do a laughable opening dmg which is already now laughable for everything beyond snipe after the stealth nerf with 1.5.

Do ZoS developers never PvP on live servers on their own?

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

Mauz wrote: »

Thats one more sign that ZoS is completely mindless of PvP.

Sorc can already now escape from all situations even from the middle of a zergball.This will make them nearly unkillable in each and every situation. In combination with its spamable class shield it will become the more tanky the more dps it has. A permablocking class cannon with insane autoheal without even having the need of a healing skill in the bar. If this goes live sorc will definitely become the new fotm in PvP.

At the same time this nerfs all kinds of 2h charge builds wich were the best counter of BE sorcs to death. Shadowly disguise morph will become completely useless.

Do ZoS developers never PvP on live servers on their own?

They don't always escape. apparently autoheal = only on crits(random) for 20sec and only 65% (barring changes) of that damage. no healing skill on bar(except the one you mentioned that is only 1 of 2 class skills that can actually heal). Yeah sorcs will be FotM if everybody bunches up, I'll love casting impulse on 20 people with no aoe caps.

or you could just spread out.

And if a a build's gap closer having it's damaged reduced by about 17% (100% base damage + 50% crit damage /2 (500 impen =50%))= 125% opposed to original 150%, ruins it, then I think it was probably a bad build.

DezIsDead

so does this mean the crit sorc build is back on the table for PvP?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

PS. the post above me is actually a very intelligent post. /clap Rare to see that on the "official forums"

Mauz

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

And if a a build's gap closer having it's damaged reduced by about 17% (100% base damage + 50% crit damage /2 (500 impen =50%))= 125% opposed to original 150%, ruins it, then I think it was probably a bad build.

Where do you have this formula from?

Additionally its a bit different. Most ppl running a crit charge or stealth based build use the shadow mundus with med armor and/or are nbs. My char is a Khajiit nb. For me its a 70% crit bonus. So for your example my skills do 21% less damage. And you say this is nothing if 3/4 of your dmg comes from guarantied crits, for the rest you have in general about 50% crit chance and you rely on killing quickly cause you have no reasonable healing and sustain?

Without skill pts set its 65% crit bonus. So either it is bugged or there is a soft cap for crit bonus. Not to mention that 30% stamina regen from refreshing shadows does not apply. Everytime I'm testing anything I find new substantial bugs.

themdogesbite

DezIsDead wrote: »

so does this mean the crit sorc build is back on the table for PvP?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

PS. the post above me is actually a very intelligent post. /clap Rare to see that on the "official forums"

Crit sorc was never out to begin with.

Joy_Division

Huntler wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Tweaked impen, but didn't tweak crit rates. Quite easy right now to get a sorc to 60-80% crit without even a spell power pot..... ummm.... this is going to hurt

well it doesent matter much if the additional dmg is <<10% after impen is calculated in.
so the sorc doesent hurt more but has a reliable heal for the first time.
but what about ae cap changes + crit surge? this will lead to unkillable sorcs with enough enemys in range...

Yeah thats what I meant, I kind of assume it'll be a 1 to 1 ratio switch so that basically 5 piece impen cuts crit damage by half, etc etc. So crits even with someone stacking impen will still mean something, but really only be like a 25% or less damage buff (unless they are nightblades or use the shadow stone etc.). However like you said, a sorc running the 80% crit build without even using a spell pot is going to basically perma heal himself... this could be insane.

Not quite:

1) Staff weapon now are linked to spellpower. Crit surge morphs either tie it to Spellpower OR you get heals, not both.

2) Sorcs can't crit a damage shield.

3) Surge heal is still tied to damage. People aren't going to hang their impenetrable gear in the closest for sturdy or well-fitted.

DeLindsay

It'd be nice to find out if the change is a direct change, i.e. 100 Impen now reduces the change to crit by 10% (Legendary), so will the change reduce the damage of the critical bonus by 10% (Legendary)? I think that would be fine because even if all the Blocktaculars had full 8pc of Impen they could still only reduce the critical damage bonus by 80%.

danno8

DeLindsay wrote: »

It'd be nice to find out if the change is a direct change, i.e. 100 Impen now reduces the change to crit by 10% (Legendary), so will the change reduce the damage of the critical bonus by 10% (Legendary)? I think that would be fine because even if all the Blocktaculars had full 8pc of Impen they could still only reduce the critical damage bonus by 80%.

Whether it is multiplicative 1-(.10 * (.5)) = 45% more damage

or additive 50%-10% = 40% more damage we will have to wait and see.

Unless ZoS just wants to tell us, you know for transparency and all.

DeLindsay

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Whether it is multiplicative 1-(.10 * (.5)) = 45% more damage

or additive 50%-10% = 40% more damage we will have to wait and see.

Unless ZoS just wants to tell us, you know for transparency and all.

I'm not sure the word Transparency has ever been uttered in the halls of ZoS. I'd almost wager it's on the no-go list of words that nobody is allowed to speak.

DezIsDead

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

DezIsDead wrote: »

so does this mean the crit sorc build is back on the table for PvP?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

PS. the post above me is actually a very intelligent post. /clap Rare to see that on the "official forums"

Crit sorc was never out to begin with.

Kinda was in PvP for me. But I'll definitely explore going back now

olsborg

My major concern about the impenetrable tweak, is that the reduction in critical dmg also will apply to abilities with a sure-crit chance. Like critical charge or sneak attack.

That would actually make impenetrable better post 1.6 then pre 1.6.

Kybotica

olsborg wrote: »

My major concern about the impenetrable tweak, is that the reduction in critical dmg also will apply to abilities with a sure-crit chance. Like critical charge or sneak attack.

That would actually make impenetrable better post 1.6 then pre 1.6.

Agreed. An ability like crit charge, where it is always a crit, will be significantly weaker with this change. Unless they increase the base damage of those skills, they'll need to be rebalanced. They have low base damage specifically because of their chance to crit, but now their damage will tank.

Suntzu1414

I'm confused.

If impen is tied to damage reduction vs. chance to crit.
This should "help" sorc and NB crit builds, especially those that are heavy crit based (khajit NB).

Previously, when i hit in pvp with my crit based NB (i have another non-crit based NB). If the target had 5 pieces of impen. My 50% crit percentage would be nulled.

under the new system. I would still crit (example):


Pervious
Base Damage 500
Crit 50% 250
Impen -250

Final 500

New System
Base Damage 500
Crit 50% 250
Impen -125

Final 625 (20% damage increase)


I'm i looking at this correctly??

Kill Well
ST

Sharee

Suntzu1414 wrote: »

I'm confused.

If impen is tied to damage reduction vs. chance to crit.
This should "help" sorc and NB crit builds, especially those that are heavy crit based (khajit NB).

Previously, when i hit in pvp with my crit based NB (i have another non-crit based NB). If the target had 5 pieces of impen. My 50% crit percentage would be nulled.

under the new system. I would still crit (example):


Pervious
Base Damage 500
Crit 50% 250
Impen -250

Final 500

New System
Base Damage 500
Crit 50% 250
Impen -125

Final 625 (20% damage increase)


I'm i looking at this correctly??

Kill Well
ST

Pretty much, except 500 to 625 is a 25% increase, not 20%

The numbers look different tho if your current build heavily relies on attacks that ignore impenetrable, like critical rush, or sneak attacks, or shadowy disguise. In that case, you will see a damage reduction.

Tankqull

danno816_ESO wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

It'd be nice to find out if the change is a direct change, i.e. 100 Impen now reduces the change to crit by 10% (Legendary), so will the change reduce the damage of the critical bonus by 10% (Legendary)? I think that would be fine because even if all the Blocktaculars had full 8pc of Impen they could still only reduce the critical damage bonus by 80%.

Whether it is multiplicative 1-(.10 * (.5)) = 45% more damage

or additive 50%-10% = 40% more damage we will have to wait and see.

Unless ZoS just wants to tell us, you know for transparency and all.

as ZOS have proofen great math skills it´ll be a reduction of 80% of the overall dmg so you will be doing ~30% of your normal dmg when critting :P
sth like
1*1.5[crit dmgcal]-1.5*0.8[reduction calc] = 30% :P

DeLindsay

Tankqull wrote: »

as ZOS have proofen great math skills it´ll be a reduction of 80% of the overall dmg so you will be doing ~30% of your normal dmg when critting :P
sth like
1*1.5[crit dmgcal]-1.5*0.8[reduction calc] = 30% :P

Sarcasm aside I don't think it'll work this way. The change reads to me that Impen will ONLY reduce the Crit dmg itself, not the total damage you do. Meaning if you hit for 1000 normally and crit for 1500 (500 Crit dmg) then 8 pcs of Impen at Legendary would reduce the total dmg from 1500 to 1100 (80% off of 500). It wouldn't make sense at all that normal attacks would still be 1000 while crits of 1500 would be reduced to 300.

Granted what you say is correct and ZoS does some things that make us wonder if they've ever played ANY MMO before let alone ESO.

Cody

I am more than willing to trade crit damage in exchange for the possibility of having a chance to get the strike in the first place.

AnteCoyote

Oh no! Think of all of the ultimate that is going to be generated by all of those crits!

Wait a sec...

Digiman

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if this has been discussed but I'll put it here.

Just came up on reddit and was replied to:

Eric Wrobel
"Impenetrable has been tweaked in 1.6, it now reduces incoming critical damage instead of reducing the chance to be hit with a critical strike. This means abilties such such as critical surge will now give the caster health. We like the fact that Impenetrable is very powerful in AvA but would like to further adjust the way it works so players have more gearing options in AvA."

It was inevitable, the idea of the crit chance reduction seemed inane for long term PvP. But crit damage reduction has been used in other MMO's at end game and is far more useful. I am guessing there is a hard cap at about 20 to 30 percent.

olsborg

Digiman wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if this has been discussed but I'll put it here.

Just came up on reddit and was replied to:

Eric Wrobel
"Impenetrable has been tweaked in 1.6, it now reduces incoming critical damage instead of reducing the chance to be hit with a critical strike. This means abilties such such as critical surge will now give the caster health. We like the fact that Impenetrable is very powerful in AvA but would like to further adjust the way it works so players have more gearing options in AvA."

It was inevitable, the idea of the crit chance reduction seemed inane for long term PvP. But crit damage reduction has been used in other MMO's at end game and is far more useful. I am guessing there is a hard cap at about 20 to 30 percent.

Personally Im hoping the hardcap is at or below 33%. If its more then that, the trait will still be mandatory for pvp. And I hope you can reach the cap with 4 or so armor pieces.

Tankqull

olsborg wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if this has been discussed but I'll put it here.

Just came up on reddit and was replied to:

Eric Wrobel
"Impenetrable has been tweaked in 1.6, it now reduces incoming critical damage instead of reducing the chance to be hit with a critical strike. This means abilties such such as critical surge will now give the caster health. We like the fact that Impenetrable is very powerful in AvA but would like to further adjust the way it works so players have more gearing options in AvA."

It was inevitable, the idea of the crit chance reduction seemed inane for long term PvP. But crit damage reduction has been used in other MMO's at end game and is far more useful. I am guessing there is a hard cap at about 20 to 30 percent.

Personally Im hoping the hardcap is at or below 33%. If its more then that, the trait will still be mandatory for pvp. And I hope you can reach the cap with 4 or so armor pieces.

crit dmg must be negated by a full imp set otherwise the allready insane TTK will go compleatly out of whack

ToRelax

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if this has been discussed but I'll put it here.

Just came up on reddit and was replied to:

Eric Wrobel
"Impenetrable has been tweaked in 1.6, it now reduces incoming critical damage instead of reducing the chance to be hit with a critical strike. This means abilties such such as critical surge will now give the caster health. We like the fact that Impenetrable is very powerful in AvA but would like to further adjust the way it works so players have more gearing options in AvA."

It was inevitable, the idea of the crit chance reduction seemed inane for long term PvP. But crit damage reduction has been used in other MMO's at end game and is far more useful. I am guessing there is a hard cap at about 20 to 30 percent.

Personally Im hoping the hardcap is at or below 33%. If its more then that, the trait will still be mandatory for pvp. And I hope you can reach the cap with 4 or so armor pieces.

crit dmg must be negated by a full imp set otherwise the allready insane TTK will go compleatly out of whack

Another point:



As the full set is impenetrable, it wouldn't make much sense in it's current state.

Of course, it may be reworked, like everything we are discussing about after all.

danno8

ToRelax wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if this has been discussed but I'll put it here.

Just came up on reddit and was replied to:

Eric Wrobel
"Impenetrable has been tweaked in 1.6, it now reduces incoming critical damage instead of reducing the chance to be hit with a critical strike. This means abilties such such as critical surge will now give the caster health. We like the fact that Impenetrable is very powerful in AvA but would like to further adjust the way it works so players have more gearing options in AvA."

It was inevitable, the idea of the crit chance reduction seemed inane for long term PvP. But crit damage reduction has been used in other MMO's at end game and is far more useful. I am guessing there is a hard cap at about 20 to 30 percent.

Personally Im hoping the hardcap is at or below 33%. If its more then that, the trait will still be mandatory for pvp. And I hope you can reach the cap with 4 or so armor pieces.

crit dmg must be negated by a full imp set otherwise the allready insane TTK will go compleatly out of whack

Another point:



As the full set is impenetrable, it wouldn't make much sense in it's current state.

Of course, it may be reworked, like everything we are discussing about after all.

I think if you invest in a clearly tanking set, it's fine.

The problem with ESO has always been certain classes with great survivability and great damage at the same time.

jrkhan

Hopefully shadowy disguise will get something to compensate. The ability was the less popular morph to begin with, and a guarenteed crit will be less useful now than ever before. Something like, decreases the effective impenetrable rating of your target while active by x%. I'm sure we'll have more information about how everything will work together soon.

Huntler

olsborg wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if this has been discussed but I'll put it here.

Just came up on reddit and was replied to:

Eric Wrobel
"Impenetrable has been tweaked in 1.6, it now reduces incoming critical damage instead of reducing the chance to be hit with a critical strike. This means abilties such such as critical surge will now give the caster health. We like the fact that Impenetrable is very powerful in AvA but would like to further adjust the way it works so players have more gearing options in AvA."

It was inevitable, the idea of the crit chance reduction seemed inane for long term PvP. But crit damage reduction has been used in other MMO's at end game and is far more useful. I am guessing there is a hard cap at about 20 to 30 percent.

Personally Im hoping the hardcap is at or below 33%. If its more then that, the trait will still be mandatory for pvp. And I hope you can reach the cap with 4 or so armor pieces.

Enjoy the new TTK in 1.6 if you want a hard cap on it. People already cry a storm that the TTK is too low in this game...

Satiar

I dunno what to think. Seems like a good change but will utterly murder my 2hand build I've been running since 1.2

WebBull

Well kills 2H builds. Pretty soon weapon choices will be down to the all powerful bow, resto staff, and S&B.