More QQ'ing about Templar abilities & How to fix them (my opinions).

C0pp3rhead

Hey Folks, been playing a Templar since April, and I've seen alotta things get fixed, nerfed and buffed. I love my Templar, and I'm gonna continue using him as my main. However, some problems still persist. In this post, I will air my grievances and explain some remedies that I feel are neither unreasonable nor OP. First some general discussion on the class, then a breakdown of problematic abilities and passives.

An additional note: I know that other classes suffer their own problems. Sorc DPS isn't that great. NB's are skill broken in many respects. I'm not ignoring you guys, just wanted to share my thoughts on this particular class. Thanks for listening, I hope you all like it

There are a number of critiques of the class overall.

• Magicka Management
  Problem:
  With only a few ways to regenerate (small amounts) of magicka we often have to use Warlock set items to give us a boost. Call me crazy, but I don't like relying on a certain armor set in order to ensure that I can do my job. Doesn't allow me to play any way I want. A number of people advise us to use Equilibrium, which is fine if you're a tank or DPS. However, If you are the only healer in your group, Equilibrium puts you in a precarious situation because it prevents you from self-healing. It seems ridiculous that I should have to call on a secondary healer whenever I'm low on magicka. As I become more familiar with endgame content, I find that the only way to maintain mana is to religiously lay down channeled focus and chug mana potions like a skooma addict.
  Potential Solution:
  There are a number of possibilities that could rectify this situation. One would be to replace a passive *cough* Enduring Rays *cough* with a regain or even absorb magicka upon successful spell casts/heals/DoT ticks. Another way would be to provide us with any sort of ability that allows us to regain magicka. An absorb magicka spell would fit in really well with the DW skill line. I love my Channeled Focus spell, but the mana regain is too small to truly make the difference. Increasing the spell's magicka recovery would be an easy way to fix this problem.The same could be said for Restoring Aura - giving it a mana regen bonus or something similar to (but less powerful than) the Beta version.
• Tanking & CC
  Templars have the potential to be wonderful tank. Most importantly, we lack the DPS (see below) that allows us to hold a boss' attention. Additionally, we are somewhat lacking in CC abilities. I don't have much experience tanking - if you have some additional complaints & suggestions, I would be happy to see them. Spear Shards provides a nice AoE dmg & stun effect, but having to divert your attention from a boss in order to aim it makes it somewhat unwieldy. Solar Barrage (Solar Flare morph: see below) is one of our class AoE spells, but most of us prefer the Destro Staff's Impulse, especially when it's almost impossible to synergize the weapon/spell power boost with our other skills. What would really help is an ability similar to the DK's Fiery Grip, allowing us to pull enemies towards us. My suggestion is replace one of Piercing Javelin's morphs, Aurora Javelin (see below) with such a skill. Yes, we can resort to the Fighters Guild's Silver Leash, but it would be nice to have a magicka-based skill for that purpose.
• No Execute
  Problem:
  The skill Puncturing Strikes was supposed to be our class' execute, but the +70% crit does not compare with the 300% damage increases against low health enemies offered to other classes. Moreover, the channeled nature of the spell makes it impossible to use block, unless you waste time and mana by blocking halfway through. Although there are other abilities that require you to channel them and waste resources if you block halfway through, the importance of Puncturing Strikes to the Templar, especially as the class' only execute, make the drawbacks of this skill particularly glaring.
  Potential Solution:
  Other channeled spells, such as the Sorc's Dark Exchange do not penalize you for interrupting them halfway through. Instead, you get only half the benefit. Spells with cast times do not expend magicka until the spell is cast, resulting in no penalty other than time lost if you must interrupt your casting. One potential Solution is to make each jab require it's own magicka. In other words, each jab expends 1/4th the magicka as the entire spell does.
  However, I understand that this could be terribly difficult to implement. The costs associated with interrupting channeling would be acceptable if this skill were made into a proper execute, offering a 2x or 3x damage bonus against low health enemies.
• No Basic Attack
  Problem:
  Dragon Nights have Searing Strike and Nightblades have Assassin's Blade. These are quick, low-cost, basic attacks that one can spam and weave between light attacks and other abilities. They receive excellent bonuses from class and weapon passives. Worked into certain combinations, they can be extremely powerful. Some claim that Puncturing Strikes is intended to be our class' basic attack, but it is too costly and long duration to fit neatly into that category. Others claim that Sun Fire is the Templar's basic attack, but this ability has its own quirks, especially the horrendous dps (see below).
  Solution:
  Give us a basic attack. The easiest way to accomplish this is to change Sun Fire to an insta-damage 1-shot attack. (Note: I say easiest, not best - the goal of this post is small, practical changes, not a complete overhaul.)
• Finally, DPS.
  Templars have a horrendous time building up enough DPS. For many players, the class' DPS is too low to be competitive. As it stands now, many groups discourage Templars from focusing on DPS, and some refuse to group with DPS Templars: a severe hindrance to playing as I want. Even the best DPS builds, for example Deltia's Radiant Harvester, have a difficult time surpassing 1k dps, whereas DK's and NB's report numbers in the 1.4k to 1.6k neighborhood. The burst damage other classes can reach are numbers that Templars can scarely dream of. Most of our DPS problems stem from a lack of synergy within and between skill lines. The Aedric Spear line offers some nice passives that help out immensely with while using a shield, but there's no real synergy between the Aedric and 1h/shield skill lines. The Resto Staff line provides some extra power to our heals, but it's a one-way street. Restoring light passives affect none of the Resto Staff heals. The Dawn's Wrath skill line seems almost schizophrenic; some abilities & passives actually lower the DPS of others. Allowing Sun Fire's DoT effect to run its course provides lower DPS than spamming the ability. Potentially synergistic skills are close to useless. The (much needed) fixes to Backlash, which was supposed to be the bread & butter of the skill line, have reduced the ability to the crippled cousin of the Sorc's Daedric Curse. Fixing certain skills, especially Backlash and the DW skill line, could give us that little push that we need to be a competitive DPS machine.

And now forthe Skill-by-Skill Breakdown. Below are my comments on many of the Templar class abilities & passives. Some of the skills are fine; I didn't mention them. Other abilities just need a little tweaking. Some abilities are completely useless or counterproductive; I spent plenty of time on those.

Aedric Spear: this tanking skill line isn't very tank-y

• Radial Sweep & Morphs
  Problem:
  Overall, I like this ability because it's cheap & quick. As far as ultimates are concerned this one is practically spammable However, the small range makes it difficult to use. Melee range is 7 or 8 meters, but the range on RS & morphs is only 5 meters. I've seen mobs within range to hit me with a sword, but I can't hit them with this ability.
  Solution:
  Increase the range by 2 or 3 meters so we can hit enemies that are in melee range
• Puncturing strikes
  Problem:
  Nice little frontal cone AoE attack. One problem is: this is the templar's single execute, and it's not a good one. Compared to the sorceror's or nightblade's finishers, which offer around three times the damage coupled with low magicka cost. Sorcs even get a chance to deal massive damage (disintegrate) to low health enemies. Thiis skill just doesn't compare.
  The second problem is: because it's a channeled ability, it prevents blocking. When you're in melee range, you must block, regardless of your role. If I have to block or shield bash in the middle of it, it's gone, and so is the magicka spent - even if I get in only 1 strike. It also affects our ability to sneak in a light attack between strikes.
  Potential Solution:
  Make each strike cost it's own magicka instead of spending it all up front. This way, if i have to block in the middle of the channel, I haven't wasted the magicka.
  Substitute the crit bonus for something else. If this is supposed to be our finisher, increase the damage against low health enemies to be commensurate with other classes & skills (which get almost 3x damage increases instead of crit bonuses).
• Aurora Javelin (Piercing Javelin morph)
  Problem:
  Completely Useless. This is a skill you (generally) use against enemies that are closest to you. The damage bonus isn't great, and the magicka cost is great enough to discourage continuous knockbacks to achieve the damage bonus.
  Potential Solution:
  Get rid of this useless skill. I see here an opportunity to add in a way for our Templar tanks to pull in an enemy. Imagine throwing a glowing spear through an enemy then pulling them over to you!
• Piercing Spear (Passive)
  Problem:
  When half of the Aedric Spear skills use weapon crit, and the other half use spell crit, a +10% crit chance isn't very helpful. Especially when you consider that other classes get +15% or more crit chance from similar passives.
  Potential Solution:
  Increase the crit bonus from 10% to the 15% that other classes can get.

Dawn's Wrath: this skill line is completely broken. Seriously.

• Nova & Morphs
  Problem:
  This ultimate overall is awesome. The one critique is that it's almost too expensive. This is debatable though, especially with ultimate generating and cost reducing passives. As one of the heaviest damage dealers in the game, the high cost is understandable. However other classes and abilities can approach (and sometimes surpass) these numbers with ultimates that cost much less.
  Potential Solution:
  Once again, you could make the case that this ability is not too expensive for the dmg & debuffs it offers. If you do think it's too expensive, decrease the cost to 250 Or increase the damage/debuffs so that it really is worth the 300 ultimate.
• Sun Fire & Morphs
  Problem:
  This skill's problem is not with it's debuffs or other bonuses offered by its morphs. Instead, this ability seems confused as to whether it is a DoT or direct damage spell. As an instacast, direct damage ability, the damage is not enough (compare with Destro Staff's Force Shock & morphs). As a DoT effect, it doesn't last long enough, nor is the damage great. As a result, you can achieve greater DPS by not taking the enduring rays passive, and even more by simply spamming the direct damage bit.
  Potential Solution:
  Make this spell an instacast, direct damage ability or a true DoT spell. My personal opinion is that this ability should be our basic attack. The base ability should be a one-shot direct-damage ability. The morphs could incorporate the snares, additional targets, and DoT aspects of the ability as it is now.
• Solar Flare & Morphs
  Problem:
  The damage bonus is useless. Because the bonus applies to the next attack, not your next attack, the damage bonus is most often wasted by a group member's light attack. Also, this skill deals magic damage. This is the Dawn's Wrath skill line, not the Magic Sunshine skill line. This should deal fire damage, not magic damage.
  Potential Solution:
  Provide the damage bonus to only the caster. This way, we can actually get some synergy with other skills. Also, make this ability deal fire damage.
• Backlash & morphs
  The HUGE Problem:
  This is a big one, and there are 4 aspects to consider: Cast time, source of damage, damage cap, and duration. Essentially, every aspect of this spell has become a limiting factor. Originally, this ability was meant to be the bread & butter of the DW line and Templar DPS. It used to be awesome, allowing Templars to achieve DPS on par with other classes. The cast time was a debuff applied to what was originally a very powerful skill. It made sense at the time. Then, the ability got nerfed beyond recognition. These debuffs, however awful, were necessary. True - the damage it dealt was insane, especially in a group setting, because it stored damage from any and all sources. When it became clear that the damage was OP, they put the damage cap in place.
  Now however, a skilled group will reach the damage cap in less than 1 second, making the full duration of the spell completely useless. In a group setting, this skill works like the Sorc ability Daedric Curse, except that it has a cast time, and deals higher damage. With the 1.5s cast time, 6s duration, and an additional 1.2s from the enduring rays passive, the spell does not deal damage frequently enough to contribute significantly to dps. The difficulty of getting the most out of this skill is compounded by the problematic quirks of our passives and other damage dealing abilities. As it stands, all the debuffs on this spell significantly hinder, and many would say, negate its usefulness. They have completely changed the way that this skill works. In the 7.5 seconds (or 8.7 seconds with enduring rays) Backlash takes to cast and expire, I can achieve higher DPS in other ways.
  The Much-Needed Potential Solution:
  "There are a few ways we can do this, and the choice is yours."
  1. Preferred Solution: Absorb damage from only the caster, and remove the cap. This is how the spell should have worked from the outset. Theoretically, it would be possible (assuming lots of things went right) to achieve over 2k damage, However, this is on par with the burst damage that nightblades can lay down. In other words, if you can manage 1000 dps as a templar, combined with the damage from this spell, you're looking at 1.3k dps over those 6 seconds. The cast time keeps this spell from becoming OP.
  2. Or, absorb damage from only the casterand allow the effect to expire when the cap is reached, dealing damage. Remove cast time. This formula keeps damage low, but the instacast makes it easier to work into a routine.
  3. Or, absorb damage from all sources and allow the effect to expire when the cap is reached, dealing damage. Keep cast time of 1.5 seconds. Your groupmates will reach the cap instantly in large groups, repeated use resulting in around 1k dps from this spell. In smaller groups, you're looking at .5s or 1s to reach the cap, resulting in 750 to 600 dps from this spell. The better your group does, the better this spell will be.
  4. Or, absorb damage from all sources, keeping cap and duration the same. Keep the ability as is, but remove cast time. This is a simple fix, but it doesn't truly rectify the problems this spell has. This formula would also receive a debuff from the Enduring Rays passive.
• Enduring Rays
  Problem:
  One could make an argument that this passive is the worst in the game. In fact, it completely breaks the DW skill line because it nerfs almost every DW ability. Sun fire's DoT effect is so weak that waiting for the extended DoT to expire before recasting lowers DPS. The extra 1.2 seconds of 40% reduced healing from dark flare is almost not worth mentioning. For Backlash, a group will achieve the damage cap within 1 second - the 1.2 additional seconds nerf this skill too. Enemies can CC break Eclipse, so the extra 1.2 seconds are only useful in PvP against noobs and low stamina players. It is skills like this that make templars poor in the DPS department.
  Potential Solution:
  There are two possibilities here:
  1. Get rid of this passive and replace it with a passive that allows for some synergy. A bonus to fire damage would go well with the destro staff line. A chance for all DW skills to induce a burning effect for a little extra DoT. What would be really helpful is a passive that allows for some magicka regeneration. I see the DW skill tree as something akin to WoW's shadow priest skills. A small absorb magicka passive that procs on damage or DoT ticks would not only be immensely helpful, but also fit in well with the feel of the skill line.
  2. Rethink every skill in the tree: Sun fire would have to become a pure DoT. Solar flare would receive no bonus. This passive makes sense with Backlash only if using formulas 1. and 4. as explained under Backlash & morphs. This passive works well with Eclipse, provided the target doesn't CC break. The secondary damage effect of Unstable Core would have to be increased to make up for the dps loss resulting from waiting longer for the spell to end. This passive currently works well with Blinding Light, but I understand that spell's changing soon.

Restoring Light - where Templars really shine.

• Healing Ritual & Morphs
  Problem:
  a decent ability, but a few small changes are needed. The low healing we receive from this ability does not justify the cast time nor the magicka cost. The cast time makes it close to useless in a dungeon, especially when you can achieve better results with several resto staff abilities. The additional heal to self is unnecessary. As for the morphs, a .3 second cast time reduction is useless. If .3 seconds is going to save your life, then you're doing something wrong. The delayed healing effect from the morph doesn't make sense when, once again, the resto staff offers vastly superior HoT's.
  Potential Solution:
  Turn this into a HoT spell. Currently, the Templar tree offers no heal over time spells. Instead, we must turn to the resto staff line. If I'm hauling around a 2hander or Destro staff, I might like a little buff before I charge into battle. Alternatively, you could rethink this spell entirely, scrapping it for an ability that would help with our magicka management. Or even (and this would be really cool), what if you gave us a spell to restore our allies' stamina or magicka? That would be pretty unique and supremely useful. I always imagined templars giving good buffs to their party. Instead of the above, perhaps this ability could be something like DK's Igneous Weapons so we can buff our party's damage.
• Focused Healing (Passive)
  Just one comment. This passive offers increased healing to allies w/in certain area of effect skill, including Rune Focus. Rune focus, however, does not affect allies, so why would they be standing in it? Not very useful. Overall though, this is an excellent passive.

Pmarsico9

Well I like your formatting.

Wait for the 1.6 PTS then plaster everything wrong or right with the rework on these forums. That's all we can really do. There have been sooooo many suggestions during and since beta.

But honestly, the class skills aside from Blazing Spear and Vamp's Bane are really straight up junk for PVE DPS.

But to reiterate my thoughts:

Aedric Spear:

Puncturing Strikes: It's arguably TOO effective for soloing when morphed for Sweep. Forgive me for viewing Sweep's current status as a band-aid. Because you literally can do that forever. I didn't even need help until on a world boss or public dungeon until the very last ones at V10.
Piercing Javelin: I like your idea for a the chains treatment, but it's probably too closely similar to fly that way. I'll address CC below. Here's my idea on this guy:
Base ability remains, but damage scaling goes way up due to the improvement in Aedric Passives (below.)
Binding Javelin replaced with a Stamina/weapon-scaling morph that leaves a bleed.
Aurora Javelin deals Magicka damage and returns 25% of the damage it does as magicka. This is how we're going to use the aedric tree to supplement support, caster dps, and hybrid builds. The tree itself is going to be primarily for tanking/stamina dps.

Focused Charge: It's never worked. So I can't really say if it's good or not. It just goes. Instead you get Binding Light which is a targeted AoE Root.
Aedric Shackle morph has targets recently rooted deal reduced damage on their next attack (10/15/20/25% based on rank.)
Burning Blindness increases damage taken by enemies affected by the root (5/10/15/20% based on rank.) Root duration matches Talons. But it doesn't do damage and there's no synergy, with the tradeoff being a target reticule.

Spear Shards: This remains. However, luminous costs stamina instead of magicka, and the ground effect remains for either and even if you don't take blazing's damage (which gets bumped up significantly because of the Burning Light Change below.)

Sun Shield: Radiant Ward buffed and increases threat generated while active by 300% to its effects and costs stamina. Blazing Shield now lasts longer and REFLECTS 50% of the damage it takes while active. It no longer gains strength based on number of targets around it, but instead is a full 40% of your health.

Piercing Spear: Gain 7.5/15% weapon and spell critical strike for 3/6 seconds after you use an Aedric Spear ability.

Spear Wall: Fine as is.

Burning Light: I played WoW a long time. Seal of Casino with no stat scaling sucks. There's no way to increase the chance to proc as it is now. Instead we need to create synergy for both Stamina and Magicka based abilities right here. Like how DK's have Ardent Flame's Kindling.
You deal 7.5/15% bonus magic damage on all of your class damage abilities. Clean and simple. This is affected by resistance and scales off the ability that procced it.

Balanced Warrior: You take 2.5/5% less damage and your abilities deal 3/6% more damage. This is flat scaling.

Radial Sweep: Crescent Sweep now recharges your stamina and magicka for 5% of the damage it does but loses the bonus damage component. Empowering Sweep remains one of the best tanking ultimates in ESO. However, the width and diameter of its circle needs to be far less sensitive to missing targets with tiny elevation differences and the it needs to be increased to 8 meters, if not 10. It's an ultimate. Even if its cheap, it's still dumping that bar out.

Dawn's Wrath:

Sun Fire: Since it now procs Burning Light the DoT should be more substantial. Reflective Light now does 5 targets and Vampire's Bane buffs the direct damage. Projectile speed increased by 1000%. Reflective Light also now costs stamina.

Solar Flare: Hooo boy. Here's a fine piece of junk as it stands now. Add this to the current tooltip: "Each successful attack you make reduces the cast time by 20%." DoT ticks don't count. Solar Barrage loses its GCD and also gains "Provides you with a damage shield equal to 30% of the damage it does total once every 6 seconds." Solar Barrage now costs Stamina. Dark Flare gains the following "Critical Strikes leave a magic DoT for 25% of the damage dealt by the initial Dark Flare. The DoT combines on successive crits and is re-averaged across the next tick (preventing "Ignite Munching," like exists on the two handed Axe bleed now.) Projectile speed for both Flares increased by 1000%.

Backlash: Completely and totally unable to be balanced. It will either suck or be OP'd. Removed and replaced with Illumination.
Illumination is an automatic critical strike that deals damage based off your spell critical strike rating in its base form. It deals heavy damage on 2 second cast time. Morph 1) Illuminating Strike: changes it to costing Stamina, scales it off your weapon critical strike, turns it into a DoT, and makes it instant cast. The DoT ticks are auto crits.

Morph 2) Illuminating Redemption: keeps the cast time, and heals the templar and his party for 15% of the damage it does.

Eclipse: Another winner. Apparently designed to be an idiot check for PVP. Uses are beyond limited in PVE.
This becomes a straight up spell reflect that converts 25% of the spell damage reflected into magicka for the Templar. That's base. And it only works on spells.
Total Dark increases charges to two.
Unstable Core also silences the target that eats the reflected spell. Unstable Core costs stamina.

Blinding Light: Channeled Execute as outlined in ESO live.

Enduring Rays: Increases buff and debuff durations by 4/8 seconds.

Prism: All abilities add 1/2 additional Ultimate on use (who wrote this tooltip????)

Illuminate changed to Halo: Increases range of all Dawn's Wrath abilities by 2.5/5 Meters, Increases damage of all Dawn's Wrath Abilities by 3.5/7%.

Restoring Spirit: Reduces all ability costs by 3/6%.

Nova: Cost reduced to match Standard. Both morphs now also empower the Templar's healing and damage done for the duration of Nova.

Restoring Light. This tree is by and large pretty damned good. Three main changes:

Healing Ritual. Removed. Replaced with Combat Prayer. Ability becomes a true Oh-*** button for healing staff, very similar to Breath of Life. Combat Prayer will still make Templar healers highly sought after (as will the Mending/Focused Healing/Breath of Life Interaction.)

Restoring Aura Morph, Radiant Aura: Now costs stamina and buffs magicka regen as well as stamina regen. Passive is still only Stamina and Health. Base diameter increased to match Radiant Aura on Live.

Rune Focus: Now a buff on the Templar, not on the ground. Focused Healing now reads "or Restoring Aura" where it formerly said "Rune Focus." Restoring Focus now also has the duration of the buff increased by 2 seconds everytime you receive a heal or take damage, extendable to 30 seconds maximum without a recast."

Pmarsico9

If it all seems to favor stamina based builds, it should. Because of the way things are when you are the only class with a single tree dedicated entirely to doing one thing that can completely and totally heal without a resto staff equipped (which may even be realistic now with Aurora Javelin's change) there should be a tax. But that doesn't mean that caster Templar DPS should be complete and total junk. This will fix a lot of that. And perhaps having some of this magicka management stuff will fix that (especially Aurora Javelin, Radiant Aura, and the existing Channeled Focus.)

Khivas_Carrick

Illuminating redemption would be way too powerful, as would a couple of things here, but balance would be easily achieved with a tweak or two, but I'm at work and awaiting 1.6 so not much will be said by me at this time.

I will say I like the proposed changes to backlash by the op and he did a great job in pointing out a few issues plaguing our class big time.

tplink3r1

The lack of a "basic attack" like DK whip and NB surprise attack is also another HUGE problem for magicka based templars.
Bitting Jabs is supposed to be our "basic attack", but its almost impossible to hit someone with it in PvP(you have to aim it), specially when you play with 300+ ping like me.
One of the morphs should only do 1 hit, NO stun, no AOE, but with an "auto-target" like whip.

Pmarsico9

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Illuminating redemption would be way too powerful, as would a couple of things here, but balance would be easily achieved with a tweak or two, but I'm at work and awaiting 1.6 so not much will be said by me at this time.

I will say I like the proposed changes to backlash by the op and he did a great job in pointing out a few issues plaguing our class big time.

Well having tried to make Backlash work for a long time, I think we can agree that the major issue is that cast time abilities in this game can be fatal.

I thought of Redemption from the POV that anything with a cast time should be relatively lethal, just like Snipe and its morphs (with Snipe's range and quicker animation/cast time and just how well the entire bow trees flows provided you can maintain the stamina to support it where Snipe is used with heavy attack weaving.) Here though, you would essentially have the ability utilized as a high damage nuke with some utility, rather than flat out BLAM, since PVP is so amazing right now getting two shot by NB Snipers ad nauseum.

This isn't adding damage, it's adding a heal. And it should be clarified that the healing perhaps is too low, since I'm saying to divide it by up to 4. It should be a solid supplemental heal (like around a 10-15% of total health heal at the presumed 3K+ non-tanks sit at.)

Soris

tplink3r1 wrote: »

The lack of a "basic attack" like DK whip and NB surprise attack is also another HUGE problem for magicka based templars.
Bitting Jabs is supposed to be our "basic attack", but its almost impossible to hit someone with it in PvP(you have to aim it), specially when you play with 300+ ping like me.
One of the morphs should only do 1 hit, NO stun, no AOE, but with an "auto-target" like whip.

This.

ThatHappyCat

I think the Templar's fire-and-forget skill is supposed to be Sun Fire... except it's weaker than Crushing Shock DPS-wise, so that doesn't work.

Should note that Sorcerers don't really have a "basic" attack either, unless you count Crystal Fragments.

tplink3r1

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I think the Templar's fire-and-forget skill is supposed to be Sun Fire... except it's weaker than Crushing Shock DPS-wise, so that doesn't work.

Should note that Sorcerers don't really have a "basic" attack either, unless you count Crystal Fragments.

I think Sun Fire is more like DK searing strike and Sorc curse.

Soris

I agree with the OP but I want to add couple things.

1- All Dawn's Wrath dmging skills have to be fire damage instead of magic
2- Need aoe stun/root/miss chance/strong snare, at least two of them.
3- Synergy between class skills and weapon skills
4- Better resource management
5- Get rid of cast times, channels and GCDs

david.haypreub18_ESO

Nova would still be too much at 250. There's no reason it should be MORE than the DKs Standard, and a very good reason it should be less: whereas the DK has a class CC ability that keeps multiple people in the range of the Standard, the Templar does not. So you could even argue that Nova should cost less; at the very least, it should not cost more than Standard.

ThatHappyCat

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Nova would still be too much at 250. There's no reason it should be MORE than the DKs Standard, and a very good reason it should be less: whereas the DK has a class CC ability that keeps multiple people in the range of the Standard, the Templar does not. So you could even argue that Nova should cost less; at the very least, it should not cost more than Standard.

One good reason would be that Nova reduces the damage of all enemies within its radius, while Standard only reduces damage dealt to the caster. Nova's damage mitigation is also stronger than Standard's.

In terms of keeping enemy players in the Nova, there's the synergy; and you can morph it into Solar Disturbance to make it more difficult for enemies to escape.

Besides, Standard is getting a cost increase come 1.6.

david.haypreub18_ESO

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Nova would still be too much at 250. There's no reason it should be MORE than the DKs Standard, and a very good reason it should be less: whereas the DK has a class CC ability that keeps multiple people in the range of the Standard, the Templar does not. So you could even argue that Nova should cost less; at the very least, it should not cost more than Standard.

One good reason would be that Nova reduces the damage of all enemies within its radius, while Standard only reduces damage dealt to the caster. Nova's damage mitigation is also stronger than Standard's.

In terms of keeping enemy players in the Nova, there's the synergy; and you can morph it into Solar Disturbance to make it more difficult for enemies to escape.

You can still move even when snared; the same can't be said when you're rooted.

Besides, Standard is getting a cost increase come 1.6.

I did not know that. Do you have a source?

Khivas_Carrick

Standard also increases the users damage dealt, so there is that

Soris

And %50 less healing received anyone? Plus its duration is 80% more than nova and deals fire damage instead of magic.

Also nova synergy doesn't stun anyone who loves block casting while standart's shackle synergy locks them in place. So it's pretty much or less useless. In most cases, soft CC is far better than any hard CCs because of block casting. Period.

ThatHappyCat

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Nova would still be too much at 250. There's no reason it should be MORE than the DKs Standard, and a very good reason it should be less: whereas the DK has a class CC ability that keeps multiple people in the range of the Standard, the Templar does not. So you could even argue that Nova should cost less; at the very least, it should not cost more than Standard.

One good reason would be that Nova reduces the damage of all enemies within its radius, while Standard only reduces damage dealt to the caster. Nova's damage mitigation is also stronger than Standard's.

In terms of keeping enemy players in the Nova, there's the synergy; and you can morph it into Solar Disturbance to make it more difficult for enemies to escape.

You can still move even when snared; the same can't be said when you're rooted.

Besides, Standard is getting a cost increase come 1.6.

I did not know that. Do you have a source?

In PvP if you don't dodge out of Solar Disturbance the snare can be the difference between life and death, especially since Nova's DoT is considerably stronger than Standard's. And since dodge breaks roots whether it's a strong snare or a root doesn't make a huge difference.

The Standard nerf was mentioned in the interview that gave us extra info about 1.6.

Pmarsico9

Standard is infinitely more powerful than Nova simply for the root synergy. But whether it's PVP or PVE, there's the incredible added pressure that a DK with Standard's buff. It's not the damage of just the standard.

It's the damage of a DK with a lot of resources with 20% more damage on everything they do.

ThatHappyCat

And yet it's Nova trial leaders call for, not Standard. Damage mitigation is huge. Your Standard doesn't count for much if the rest of your group wipes.

Standard's synergy means little in PvP because people dodge out of Ultis. If they don't have stamina to dodge, they're pretty much dead (and they wouldn't have stamina to CC break Nova's synergy either).

I'd also add that I see people trigger Supernova/Gravity Crush far more often than Shackles. Presumably most PvPers (and PvEers as well for that matter) consider the former a more meaningful synergy.

david.haypreub18_ESO

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

And yet it's Nova trial leaders call for, not Standard. Damage mitigation is huge. Your Standard doesn't count for much if the rest of your group wipes.

Standard's synergy means little in PvP because people dodge out of Ultis. If they don't have stamina to dodge, they're pretty much dead (and they wouldn't have stamina to CC break Nova's synergy either).

I'd also add that I see people trigger Supernova/Gravity Crush far more often than Shackles. Presumably most PvPers (and PvEers as well for that matter) consider the former a more meaningful synergy.

I don't disagree about trials, but in PvP, I see way more Standards than I do Novas. It's not even close.

I don't think anyone's complaining about Nova in PvE. In PvP, though, its utility is greatly limited by the fact that the Templars don't have anything like Talons to keep people in it (and Novas can't be moved and don't return resources either).

ThatHappyCat

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

I don't disagree about trials, but in PvP, I see way more Standards than I do Novas. It's not even close.

Maybe that's because Nova takes 50% more Ultimate than Standard before it can be cast, and DKs are more prevalent in PvP due to their overall power, and many Templars run healer with more support-oriented Ultimates?

Also consider that Nova is less useful in solo and PUG PvP (but is very strong in organised groups), while Standard, being mostly selfish, is very popular with solo and PUGing DKs.

Anyways, the point is Nova is not inherently weaker than Standard. It is a bit costly and should have a cost decrease, but it is a very strong Ultimate in any organised group situation, whether it be PvE or PvP. Standard's popularity is mostly because it's basically a self-buff, in terms of its contribution to the group it doesn't exceed Nova; and in most cases Nova is preferable for the group.

C0pp3rhead

In response to @Pmarsico9‌ , I think what you've thought out above has merit, but many of your proposed changes are impractical; for example: your proposed changes to Solar Flare (as @Khivas_Carrick‌ pointed out) would become irreconcilably OP'ed.

Moreover, my posted suggestions are intended to be quick, simple fixes that Zenimax could implement fairly easily. Your suggestions have merit, especially allowing certain morphs or abilities to utilize stamina or weapon crit. However, I disagree with your rationale for incorporating stamina abilities: Templars are the only class that can heal, hence different basic structure for class abilities. On the other hand, Templars don't get unlimited duration summon pet & armor abilities; nor do they receive sneak damage bonuses, sneaking enhancements, nor mid-combat invisibility. Nobody says that Sorcerers & Nightblades should implement a system as you described above in order to balance their "perks." What I propose are small changes, what you propose are paradigm shifts: tweaks vs. overhaul is what I mean. Your proposed changes would need to be part of a complete do-over of the class system. Such an overhaul should happen eventually, but it won't be happening anytime soon.

tplink3r1 wrote: »

The lack of a "basic attack" like DK whip and NB surprise attack is also another HUGE problem for magicka based templars.

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I think the Templar's fire-and-forget skill is supposed to be Sun Fire... except it's weaker than Crushing Shock DPS-wise, so that doesn't work.

I agree with both of you. Templars need a quick little ability that we can squeeze in wherever or use with other skills for great synergy, as NB's accomplish with sneak attack (while simultaneously achieving great burst DPS). I am inclined to agree with @ThatHappyCat‌ and say Sun Fire. Perhaps the base ability should be our basic attack, and one of the morphs could incorporate the DoT.

faernaa wrote: »

I agree with the OP but I want to add couple things.
1- All Dawn's Wrath dmging skills have to be fire damage instead of magic

Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES. x 1000.

2- Need aoe stun/root/miss chance/strong snare, at least two of them.

Currently, we have 1 and a half:
1. Blinding Light (which is changing soon)
.5 . Spear Shards (which only stuns one)

Spear shards, as I should have pointed out, has it's own problems in the animation department. It is the only 0s cast time AoE that you can run (not roll dodge) out of before it hits the ground. In PvP, it's almost useless if your enemy sees you cast it. The delay makes it easy to hit roll dodge & run out of the AoE.

3- Synergy between class skills and weapon skills

Any concrete ideas on how to accomplish this?

4- Better resource management

As I'm finding out in endgame content, in order to keep up our magicka, a Templar must religiously lay down a channeled focus for the magicka return and chug mana potions like skooma. What we need is a better way to accomplish mana upkeep that doesn't prevent self healing, i.e. equilibrium.

5- Get rid of cast times, channels and GCDs

Playing any other class is just so much smoother. DK's, NB's, & Sorcs can string together attacks until they run out of magicka. Similarly, one could compare the Templar Solar Barrage with Destro Staff's Impulse: comparable damage and the same magicka cost, but the animation and GCD that it imposes makes it difficult to work with. Combine this with other aspects of the templar class (the speed of the spell bolts of sun fire & dark flare, the channeled nature of puncturing strikes, the cast/strike delay of spear shards) and stringing together abilities and attack weaving becomes very unwieldy.


In regards to @david.haypreub18_ESO et al.'s comments on Standard vs. Nova:
I propose a breakdown:

Nova : 300 ultimate cost, 8s duration.
Dmg to enemies + reduced damage to allies. Synergy -> dmg + stun
Morph1: more powerful synergy
Morph2: 60% snare.

Standard: 200 ultimate cost, 12s duration.
Dmg to enemies + reduced healing to enemies. Synergy -> dmg + immobilize
Morphs1: longer duration
Morph2: damage bonus for & damage reduction to caster.

Nova does more damage, but Standard lasts longer. From what I understand, the synergies (even the "improved" synergy) of Nova are not much to brag about. The reason that many raids call for Nova is the 30% damage reduction to all allies. However, one could argue that in PvP, Standard's 50% less healing to enemies is much more powerful, especially if they are immobilized (which cannot be CCbreak'ed, though you can roll out of it). On the other hand, Nova's snare does not affect the speed nor distance of a roll dodge, which most people do once they see that big glowing ball.

My opinion is: they should both cost 250. Maybe Nova is still to expensive at 250, but if Standard costs 250 as well, at least there's that normalization, that shared cost, across both classes.

ThatHappyCat

Immobilise can't be CC broken but it can be roll dodged out of, so it's the same situation with Nova's snare.

Both the DoT and synergy damage of Nova are considerably stronger than Standard.

Duration is not really a concern in PvP because people will dodge out of Ultis, and if they can't (which means they don't have stamina to dodge or CC break) they're going to die anyway (hello Blazing Spear chain stun!).

In organised group PvP the most important Ultimate (and therefore the most common) is Negate, which also prevents any healers within from healing and shuts down Grand Healing. In this situation Nova's significantly superior damage > Standard's healing debuff.

All that said it is very likely that Nova and Standard will both cost 250 in 1.6. Neither change has been stated outright but both have been heavily alluded to. Standard is indeed a very strong Ultimate particularly because it's useful in all situations, but using this as a basis for buffing Nova will result in Nova becoming far too powerful in more advanced play.

C0pp3rhead

Thanks to all of you. I have updated my original post and my analysis of Nova v. Standard to reflect your input.

Khivas_Carrick

I like to view the 3 skill lines of the Templar in real simple and basic ways. Also Templars are not the only class that can heal, we're the only class that possess an entire tree devoted to healing. I know that this appears to be nitpicking, but I find that it's important to make this distinction because there are a few people that will take that entire statement literally and to heart, believing that only Templars can do certain content, which is almost true, but 1.6 as well as Spell Crafting vow to eliminate that and allow all players who wish to be healers in full force do just that, which is good because then people no longer have an excuse as to why Templars can't do high DPS like the rest of the cool kids.

With that out the way, back to the main point; The Three Skill Lines and how I view them!

I view Aedric Spear as a Weapons-Friendly Tanking or Melee DPS skill line, it's skills resembling a warrior using spear and shield to take down enemies, and it's passives bolstering both magical and steel based ways to attack and kill. To that end I would make certain passives such as Burning Light Retain the chance to proc but change it to fit all Weapon Skills and attacks, Balanced Warrior to not increase Spell Resistance with Weapon Damage but rather to Increase Crit Chance for both Spell and Weaponry AND to Increase the Damage of Weapon Based Skills by a small about, like 3/6% or 2.5/5% for example.

Another idea is to change it so having X Amount of Aedric Spear Abilities on your bar also increase the damage of Weapon Skills by Y%, which can work in the reverse as well (having X Weapon Skills are on your bar increase the damage of Aedric Spear abilities by Y%)

Dawn's Wrath I view as back-up's for Melee and Healers and Primary Assault for Mages and Casters. I would remove the passives that increase duration on DoTs and make them increase flat DoT damage instead, and speed up the animation and reduce the cast time on pretty much everything. We've seen/heard that Backlash has gotten a massive change to it and is everything we want it to be now in the way that more than one Templar can cast it and it does a DoT now as it's counting up the damage. My question however is for the healing version and whether or not it does a flat burst heal now instead of a small puddle of holy water.

Restoring Light I'm leaving alone until I see what changes with Resto Staff and other things, but there are other things I would like to do with it if I had the power to do so, but alas I do not, so I think I will end this here.