Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
thats like people saying Bows are not OP, just listen for the arrows flying at you and dodge roll that way they dont get the sneak attack on you (seriously people have told me this >_> )!
Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.
You missed the part where I fired 3 shots the wing comes out and then they hit the DK right ? Its called travel time and snipe is faster now. Throw in random lag and its hit and pray.
If I knew they had wings...I would never have fired off 3 shots in the 1st place
Iwould have spread the reflect over several archers.
Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.
You missed the part where I fired 3 shots the wing comes out and then they hit the DK right ? Its called travel time and snipe is faster now. Throw in random lag and its hit and pray.
If I knew they had wings...I would never have fired off 3 shots in the 1st place
Iwould have spread the reflect over several archers.
If you fired and you see the wings block, it's that simple. If you didn't see them then why not? I shoot DK's too. If I see the wings I know I am getting reflected so I block until I see the hits come back.
Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.
You missed the part where I fired 3 shots the wing comes out and then they hit the DK right ? Its called travel time and snipe is faster now. Throw in random lag and its hit and pray.
If I knew they had wings...I would never have fired off 3 shots in the 1st place
Iwould have spread the reflect over several archers.
If you fired and you see the wings block, it's that simple. If you didn't see them then why not? I shoot DK's too. If I see the wings I know I am getting reflected so I block until I see the hits come back.
You missed the sequence of events again I see. Explains everything
The wings come out after the fact. If I see the wings beforehand on that player I wouldnt have been firing arrows at them.
Which is the point of the OP. No one in their right mind shoots arrows at DKs. They are efffectively immune to ranged attack.
Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.
You missed the part where I fired 3 shots the wing comes out and then they hit the DK right ? Its called travel time and snipe is faster now. Throw in random lag and its hit and pray.
If I knew they had wings...I would never have fired off 3 shots in the 1st place
Iwould have spread the reflect over several archers.
If you fired and you see the wings block, it's that simple. If you didn't see them then why not? I shoot DK's too. If I see the wings I know I am getting reflected so I block until I see the hits come back.
You missed the sequence of events again I see. Explains everything
The wings come out after the fact. If I see the wings beforehand on that player I wouldnt have been firing arrows at them.
Which is the point of the OP. No one in their right mind shoots arrows at DKs. They are efffectively immune to ranged attack.
Even though the wings come out after the fact you can still block the reflected projectiles. There is no reason to stand there and let your own arrows kill you. Just block them when they come back.
Pixysticks wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Pixysticks wrote: »Crit surge should increase spell damage as well as weapon damage. Impen should just be a flat damage reduction instead of flat crit reduction.
That would fix sorcs.
Yeah, probably.
We've been screaming about impenetrable for months, to the point I'm losing faith they'll ever bother. If you could get up to (with legendary items) 5% off the crit dmg bonus with each piece it means 7 pieces = 35% deduction from the base 50% offered by crit. So crit attacks would hit for x1.15 instead of x1.5 worst case scenario. If someone has +65% crit damage (from Mundus stone) that's still x1.3 after the deductions.
It would still be pretty much essential for PvP but at least investing in a crit build would give you some steady rewards. And it would make Crit Surge give some steady rewards to Sorcs, kinda like NBs do with their damage skills.
I cancelled my sub a week ago because of it. I'll re-sub when heal debuff stacking is fixed and impen. is changed to some sort of flat damage reduction, or crit surge is changed to heal off of all damage for a lower amount.
xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »The funny thing is, Reflective Scale is already a death sentence if you're fighting any other DK who's stamina build with Bow.
You reflect, He unloads a bunch of lethal arrows on ya, and then reflects them back for 35% more damage.
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
In fact, the only ranged weapon that is not reflected is a resto staff.
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.
This has been the most constructive and informative post in the thread so far, no matter what you think of the argument itself. Props!It would seem that some folks in this thread are not actually reading the well thought out and constructive posts.
Look I get it, I have a v14 DK. I too absolutely LOVE Scales when I am playing her. The more coherent and constructive posts are not calling for blanket nerfs, simply asking for an adjustment.
Also, I agree that Lethal arrow in it's current form is just silly with the heal debuff stacking. But very few people are actually taking about the bow, though everyone who cites "L2P" and other nonsense seem to be focusing on it.
And stop with the " DK's need a counter to snipe" because all classes have to deal with it. Even without Scales, you would be no worse off than any other class. You still have a heal and a shield without even having a specific weapon requirement, and only the Templar can match that.
I also agree that folks who only slot projectile abilities, need to adjust a bit. The fact is the skill is too broad. In it's current form it nearly neuters 2 weapon skill lines, except for 3 aoe. Heck, even DW has a skill that's reflected. This is to include Light and Heavy attacks. In fact, the only ranged weapon that is not reflected is a resto staff.
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
All for the low cost of 368 magicka. Now that is a scenario in a perfect world, but it is completely possible. Heck, it can increase exponentially as the number of attackers grow, such as at a Keep defense. And with the ability to overwrite itself, while not mana efficient, is completely plausible.
Absofriggenlutely Scales needs either a rate limit on the numbers of projectiles it can reflect per cast, or it's cost need to be increased to bring it more in line with the resources it is able to negate and the damage it is capable of reflecting. UNLESS you ask any DK, including myself when I am playing her.
Come to think about it, just revert it back to consuming stamina/magicka based on the base cost of the ability reflected, like it used to.
All the DK's can defend the skill all they want to. But WE, I include myself, know for a fact it is OP atm and giggle every time we cast it.
There is another option though, change Defensive Stance in the 1h line to last 4 seconds and reflect all projectiles without the bonus damage.
At least then the class diversification in pvp would broaden more.
And no, I am not whining. Rather trying to shed some light on the potential of the ability, where otherwise may have not been considered.
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.
I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
And I want someone to explain to me how "going melee" helps a sorc vs a DK? What melee is viable for a sorc? Crit charge with crit surge (this isn't even really melee)? And is completely countered by blocking. Uppercut? Great I'll stand next to the DK (who has way more healing potential than a melee sorc) where he can do full DPS. What "awesome" dk smashing melee do sorcs have access to?
It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.
I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
And I want someone to explain to me how "going melee" helps a sorc vs a DK? What melee is viable for a sorc? Crit charge with crit surge (this isn't even really melee)? And is completely countered by blocking. Uppercut? Great I'll stand next to the DK (who has way more healing potential than a melee sorc) where he can do full DPS. What "awesome" dk smashing melee do sorcs have access to?
It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
Ooh 500 unblockable damage is weak ok then
I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
*holds face with both hands*
No ship, Sherlock. Ofc a battle against a DK is a war of attrition trying to whittle down his resources. What else would you expect it to be? They're tanky class with loads of defensive mechanisms, why should you be able to blast them in seconds? What would their purpose in battle be, if you could just crushing shock them to death while maintaining your distance? What? To be free AP for 1-button CS or Snipe spams?
Also, why isn't a 5 minute combat between a DK and Sorc not indicative of balance but indicative of DK OPness? Surely 2 classes that can go at it for 5+ minutes are very close to balance, no? Offensive potential being counter-balanced by defensive potential to lead to a long long battle.It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
Well of course cry-babies will rejoice, because they'll have their own 1-button win mechanism, I expect nothing less. If you see the pattern of complains is this thread it comes mostly from Crushing Shock and Snipe builds.
The two types of builds that most profit from the game's current "play-safe" meta, that can clock the most kills/death by simply sitting behind the lines pressing 1 button, are actually demanding more nerfs to anything that stands in front of them in the battlefield. God forbid something survives through ranged spam.
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.
I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
What is the DK's current single target sustained DPS and how is this achieved while also a tank?pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »A "tanky class" that puts out near the highest dps in the game. In my experience of other mmo's, if you're a tanky class, your damage output is negligible, not up there with the best. That's the only issue I have with DKs. Keep your scales, keep your mitigations, keep your insta-heals, but the damage output needs to be lowered.
No it does NOT show balance lol Because a sorc has to run away do something run away do something run away do something just to attempt to do stuff to a DK does not mean it is balanced. Especially when the DK just holds his shield and laughs then charges and Burning Talons you then whips you while holding his shield, then you dodge roll or BE to get away to repeat the process ALL while the DK regains stamina and health.
Clearly you do not see the dilemma here. A class with little to no damage going against a class that has survived multiple nerfs and is still king of the ring is not balanced lol Sorcs need some serious love. I want DoT to be good and viable against a DK and other classes. If they want to stand there holding block in my DoT AoE then they should be punished for it. Much like people who want to stand in Bat swarms feel they shouldnt die...guess what you should lol
As it sits right now, sorcs DoT is very VERY laughable. Block mitigates a good chunk of it at no stamina cost to them. If the DoT did not cost as much as it does AND drained stamina when being blocked then I would be happy(somewhat). Currently the ONLY means for a sorc to be viable outside of his negates in pvp is to use BE, VC (or SP depends on player), CF, MF, CW(last one is debatable).
No it does NOT show balance lol Because a sorc DK has to run away close gap do something run away close gap do something run away close gap do something just to attempt to do stuff to a DK Sorc does not mean it is balanced. Especially when the DK Sorc just holds his shield and laughs then charges Streaks and Burning Talons Encase/Mine's you then whips Curse/Fury's you while holding his shield, then you dodge roll or BE Damn, DK's cant escape to get away to repeat the process ALL while the DK Sorc regains stamina and health and magicka.