Bows in Cyrodiil->Overkill?

Lettigall

murtugo wrote: »

Bow is one way to counter impulse monkeys and zerg trains.. And now you want to nerf it? Jesssh! make up your mind people.

And how exactly spamming snipe is better then spamming impulse? Only difference from impulse spammers - snipe monkeys are spread out.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Goldie wrote: »

Not sure if anyone else has been experiencing this, but, I receive hits from bow users for upwards of 2000 damage per hit. While my health does sit somewhere between 3.5k and 4k at any given time, getting killed in 2 shots from another player that is on a keep wall seems a tad OP to me.

Your thoughts?

Prior to this patch you could get 3 shot by bow IF they were in stealth and IF they were behind you. Now it is impossible for someone with a bow to 3 shot anyone much less 2 shot. For a 1.1 second cast time snipe is kinda weak.

Mages can do much more single target dps.

murtugo

Lettigall wrote: »

murtugo wrote: »

Bow is one way to counter impulse monkeys and zerg trains.. And now you want to nerf it? Jesssh! make up your mind people.

And how exactly spamming snipe is better then spamming impulse? Only difference from impulse spammers - snipe monkeys are spread out.

One big difference.... Snipe is single target while Impulse creates AOE.

Bow is really useful in countering Zerg swarms. Thus, It is an important aspect in an open world PVP. Besides, as mentioned by the other posters there are plenty of ways to counter it.

Just saying...

Kypho

All who complain about bow are weak ppl who dont know how to deal with it. they are all monkeys who using eighter the current cheese, or stole builds from a site and they think they are awesome. well seems they are not. cry about streak+curse+fragment proc proc proc etc. same crap.

BTW i dont use bow before someone say i am archer.

Kypho

Saet wrote: »

Before the nerf I was sniping for about 2200 average. Now My average snipe is around 1400. I have heavily overcharged weapon damage and soft capped stamina. I have hit once for 1700 since nerf so I'm not sure how someone is getting over 2k now unless you were ambushed first or something like that.

i bet someone will say: I got sniped for 4k today.. because they love to throw big numbers

Dekkameron

As a DK Bow user i would just like to say "LOL!" at all the DKs with reflective scales up i seem to come across lately.

I fire at them, they reflect it back. it reflects off me and kills you.

Lettigall

murtugo wrote: »

One big difference.... Snipe is single target while Impulse creates AOE.

Bow is really useful in countering Zerg swarms. Thus, It is an important aspect in an open world PVP. Besides, as mentioned by the other posters there are plenty of ways to counter it.

Just saying...

Maybe against mindless zergs they can do something, but against organized trains absolutely nothing. Oh remembered, after you kill them you can't mount right away, game says that you're still in combat.

You defend bow users as super pro players, but look how bad they are. Most of them didn't even care to switch weapons for close combat just hitting 1 button- snipe, snipe, snipe.... nor try to escape or decide to escape when it's already to late.

Only place where bow users are truly dangerous- walls. Best way to kill "zerg" is by another "zerg."

Reilech

From my point of view, bow shouldn't be the only viable range-attack-skill. All other range attacks lacks for range, damage and sometimes speed.

Rolling/dodging/shields are protection against 1 more arrow. If you don't manage to reach your attackrange or leave the attackers range: you are dead anyways withouth reflect. So only DK and Sword+Board-users are able to fight back instantly after closing distance.

This could decrease the number of used skills and weapons in Cyrodiil.

murtugo

Lettigall wrote: »

murtugo wrote: »

One big difference.... Snipe is single target while Impulse creates AOE.

Bow is really useful in countering Zerg swarms. Thus, It is an important aspect in an open world PVP. Besides, as mentioned by the other posters there are plenty of ways to counter it.

Just saying...

Maybe against mindless zergs they can do something, but against organized trains absolutely nothing. Oh remembered, after you kill them you can't mount right away, game says that you're still in combat.

You defend bow users as super pro players, but look how bad they are. Most of them didn't even care to switch weapons for close combat just hitting 1 button- snipe, snipe, snipe.... nor try to escape or decide to escape when it's already to late.

Only place where bow users are truly dangerous- walls. Best way to kill "zerg" is by another "zerg."

I agree with your point...

As I have said... bow users have their weakness. They are usually built for range. If you get near them, they're as good as dead since they are usually weak against melee combat... It seems that you are doing well against them... so, why complain?

Lettigall

murtugo wrote: »

I agree with your point...

As I have said... bow users have their weakness. They are usually built for range. If you get near them, they're as good as dead since they are usually weak against melee combat... It seems that you are doing well against them... so, why complain?

Complain is that ZoS gave AK-47 to monkeys, impulse was nerfed but they made new spam skill with insane damage and you can get 100% heal reduction on enemy with it. 2.2 sec and you can't heal yourself, you get closer but enemy still spams snipe.

Reducing cast time and removing minimal distance at same time was a mistake.
Now snipe is one of the strongest ranged abilities, cheap for dmg it causes and don't asks lot of skills from players.

Varicite

Lettigall wrote: »

murtugo wrote: »

I agree with your point...

As I have said... bow users have their weakness. They are usually built for range. If you get near them, they're as good as dead since they are usually weak against melee combat... It seems that you are doing well against them... so, why complain?

Complain is that ZoS gave AK-47 to monkeys, impulse was nerfed but they made new spam skill with insane damage and you can get 100% heal reduction on enemy with it. 2.2 sec and you can't heal yourself, you get closer but enemy still spams snipe.

Reducing cast time and removing minimal distance at same time was a mistake.
Now snipe is one of the strongest ranged abilities, cheap for dmg it causes and don't asks lot of skills from players.

Heal debuff stacking is an obvious bug and already slated to be fixed.

Other than that, what's the difference between being Sniped and being hammered by any other long range hard hitters while you try to close the distance?

If you don't have a plan for Snipe, you pretty much don't have a plan for ranged attacks at all. You deal w/ them in the same fashion.

Lettigall

Varicite wrote: »

Heal debuff stacking is an obvious bug and already slated to be fixed.

Other than that, what's the difference between being Sniped and being hammered by any other long range hard hitters while you try to close the distance?

If you don't have a plan for Snipe, you pretty much don't have a plan for ranged attacks at all. You deal w/ them in the same fashion.

Other ranged skill what does that insane damage is Soul strike, and it's ultimate... Even with fixing heal debuff stacking fixed it still to powerfull.

Hitting 1k dmg with snipe is piece of cake, you don't need to min/max to get those numbers. To get same damage from other ranged skills you really need to think what gear to use, in what stats invest.

Countering bow users is not an issue but damage they cause before you react is.

kijima

The only time I'm hitting for around 2K or over with 1.5 on someone in Cyrodiil is if the following criteria are met:

1. Target is a vamp and I have camo hunter on
2. I'm hitting from behind with snipe (Lethal)
3. I'm able to use mark target on him before I snipe

It's pretty rare that you hit anyone with snipe after you mark the target, I don't bother usually, and really if your that slow to respond and sloppy when you get lit up with mark target, then you deserve to go boom if that's the case. Usually it's those same people mentioned that don't wear enough impen, which means any follow up shots strip them down.

But Bow is OP at the moment, let's be honest about it. Once the heal debuffs from snipe (morphs) are gone, and ZOS has said it's not intended and are looking at it, then bow will be fine. It's OP when you include the heal debuffs, but that's about it. Yeah, it hits big from range, but then it's a bow, that's it's purpose right?

As PvP'ers we should be looking for balance and be honest about what is OP and what isn't (a'la heal debufs) and not crying nerf this right now as I'm dying from it.

Honestly, anyone that plays regularly in a PvP guild, uses Team Speak or similar should be educated enough to know when a skill is OP or not, and it's at that point we should be honest about it.

MrGhosty

I would love to see what build is hitting for over 2k on people that aren't vamps, it has actually been refreshing to deal with all the bow users lately. When the invisbatpulseswarms would roll over you there was very little you could do to counter the two second melt time (yes, I know "avoid it" is a counter but that isn't always possible) When I die by bow shot I understand that I've done something wrong and I adjust myself accordingly.

I am glad that the heal debuff is a bug though, that would have made it too powerful but once that gets fixed I think we'll see the landscape shift again and only those of us who really love using bow will stick with it while the majority move on to the next flavor of the month. Until then purge and impen armor would be a good idea.

naturn

Palidon wrote: »

Bows are not an overkill in Cyrodiil. Heck if the player has Impren Armor or is using Reflective Scales Bow attacks are useless. I know for a fact since I use a Bow.

As a sorc with 5 pieces of armor with impen on them, I can tell you bows kill me all the time. In a range exchange battle between a spell casting sorc and a nb with a bow the sorc loses most of the time

Varicite

naturn wrote: »

Palidon wrote: »

Bows are not an overkill in Cyrodiil. Heck if the player has Impren Armor or is using Reflective Scales Bow attacks are useless. I know for a fact since I use a Bow.

As a sorc with 5 pieces of armor with impen on them, I can tell you bows kill me all the time. In a range exchange battle between a spell casting sorc and a nb with a bow the sorc loses most of the time

And you're wearing light armor, I'm assuming.

In what world would you want to stand and have a casting battle against a weapon that has a heavy ranged physical damage nuke AND a ranged interrupt in case you wanted to cast Frags?

If you are range battling a NB archer as a caster Sorc, you are doing it very wrong. Unfortunately, this is a case of scissors beating paper.

naturn

Varicite wrote: »

naturn wrote: »

Palidon wrote: »

Bows are not an overkill in Cyrodiil. Heck if the player has Impren Armor or is using Reflective Scales Bow attacks are useless. I know for a fact since I use a Bow.

As a sorc with 5 pieces of armor with impen on them, I can tell you bows kill me all the time. In a range exchange battle between a spell casting sorc and a nb with a bow the sorc loses most of the time

And you're wearing light armor, I'm assuming.

In what world would you want to stand and have a casting battle against a weapon that has a heavy ranged physical damage nuke AND a ranged interrupt in case you wanted to cast Frags?

If you are range battling a NB archer as a caster Sorc, you are doing it very wrong. Unfortunately, this is a case of scissors beating paper.

Are you saying sorcs should just turn and run if they see a NB archer? Sorcs are range fighters and bows are range weapons. Sorcs cast spells that leave a trail back to the caster clearly revealing their location. Bows have no visible trail making them very hard to find at times and by the time you find them it is too late. Bow users can snipe multiple times in one fight because of the short casting time now. Bows hit hard, interrupt, cc, and leave dots. Both sorcs and nb bow users are range fighters. We are talking apples and apples unless the nb goes stealth and uses melee.

Impen is not sufficient for sorcs to take on NB archers because bows do major damage even with impen. Bows are OP in Cyrodiil now and only a few bow users dispute that.

morvegil

Against some ppl my lethal does 600-700...maybe 800-900 normal...then crit its 1k-1.7k form stealth....doesnt seem unreasonable other people hit me for more with instants.

kijima

If your talking 5 purple or yellow with impen, that in most cases is enough. No amount of impen is going to stop an attack from stealth that will crit automatically though.

Cathexis

Welcome to ESO.

Snipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipesnipe.

edit; just to be clear: who ever thought of taking out tents and making snipe overpowered in the same patch was a complete moron.

xaraan

Part of the problem is that due to the early game imbalance of magicka/light armor - a lot of players are running around with less armor protection of light armor and getting hit by stamina builds a lot harder now. They don't hit as hard if you add an armor enchant on a jewelry or if you are wearing heavy. Also, running as much impenetrable on your armor as you can will help you avoid the crit part of the damage.

there are several other methods to deal with bow users as well, some of it involves moving from glass cannon to having more defensive options - which is a choice players need to make: be all tank, be all dps, or be well rounded and lose a bit of your tanky-ness or dps.

Varicite

naturn wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

naturn wrote: »

Palidon wrote: »

Bows are not an overkill in Cyrodiil. Heck if the player has Impren Armor or is using Reflective Scales Bow attacks are useless. I know for a fact since I use a Bow.

As a sorc with 5 pieces of armor with impen on them, I can tell you bows kill me all the time. In a range exchange battle between a spell casting sorc and a nb with a bow the sorc loses most of the time

And you're wearing light armor, I'm assuming.

In what world would you want to stand and have a casting battle against a weapon that has a heavy ranged physical damage nuke AND a ranged interrupt in case you wanted to cast Frags?

If you are range battling a NB archer as a caster Sorc, you are doing it very wrong. Unfortunately, this is a case of scissors beating paper.

Are you saying sorcs should just turn and run if they see a NB archer? Sorcs are range fighters and bows are range weapons. Sorcs cast spells that leave a trail back to the caster clearly revealing their location. Bows have no visible trail making them very hard to find at times and by the time you find them it is too late. Bow users can snipe multiple times in one fight because of the short casting time now. Bows hit hard, interrupt, cc, and leave dots. Both sorcs and nb bow users are range fighters. We are talking apples and apples unless the nb goes stealth and uses melee.

Impen is not sufficient for sorcs to take on NB archers because bows do major damage even with impen. Bows are OP in Cyrodiil now and only a few bow users dispute that.

I'm saying that a Sorc chain casting Crystal Frags is weaker dps than a bow user going full out.

In the same way that a glass cannon bow build gets trashed by tankier builds.

There are plenty of people who dispute that bows are OP, and most of them are generally not running around in the lowest armor possible trying to fight a higher dps build head-on w/out CC or defenses.

Go figure.

Lettigall

I just for joke put bow on my magicka build templar and now I don't see any reason to remove it.

I don't need to sacrifice magicka recovery for spell dmg to use effective dark flare, don't need high % of crit chance. Hitting mostly 400-500 dmg(non crit) with warlock+ seducer, full clothe.

I don't understand how some bow users can deny that snipe is ridiculous OP right now? Almost every bow defender says how easy it's to counter bow user, but keeps their mouths shut how easy is to play as one....

Stannum

Lettigall wrote: »

I don't understand how some bow users can deny that snipe is ridiculous OP right now? Almost every bow defender says how easy it's to counter bow user, but keeps their mouths shut how easy is to play as one....

It's easy while you are in a distance, when you are charged bow is useless. Bow user can do nothing to tanky builds. But if you use light armor and duel with bow user from distance that means that you are doing whrong and silly things but not that bow is OP. Bows are good only for glass cannons (encluding another bow users) kill.

Lettigall

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

It's easy while you are in a distance, when you are charged bow is useless. Bow user can do nothing to tanky builds. But if you use light armor and duel with bow user from distance that means that you are doing whrong and silly things but not that bow is OP. Bows are good only for glass cannons (encluding another bow users) kill.

Yes, snipe spam monkeys are *** in close combat, but skilled players are equally danger in ranged and close combat. Sorc and NB bow users can easily escape, for DK and temlar close combat shouldn't be problem.

Tanky builds are though for close combat too not just for snipe spammers!

Lack of player skills in close combat always is an argument that snipe isn't op

Varicite

Lettigall wrote: »

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

It's easy while you are in a distance, when you are charged bow is useless. Bow user can do nothing to tanky builds. But if you use light armor and duel with bow user from distance that means that you are doing whrong and silly things but not that bow is OP. Bows are good only for glass cannons (encluding another bow users) kill.

Yes, snipe spam monkeys are *** in close combat, but skilled players are equally danger in ranged and close combat. Sorc and NB bow users can easily escape, for DK and temlar close combat shouldn't be problem.

Tanky builds are though for close combat too not just for snipe spammers!

Lack of player skills in close combat always is an argument that snipe isn't op

I think the argument is more that the bow automatically loses 12% of its damage outright when fighting in close combat, and that every single skill outside of Magnum Shot is pretty much worthless when somebody is on top of you.

But yes, bow users can certainly build to mitigate this by using another weapon and class / guild skills. That's why we have 2 weapon slots, no?

Gorthax

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

im sorry but bows have THE BEST range in this game, there is NO reason they need to have that much damage. Not one logical excuse. You want to sit up on a keep wall and pew pew people fine, but you shouldnt be able to do stuff like that.

Unless reflective scales is also nerfed to not work against bows then no. Leave them alone. L2P

ROFL! it is not a L2P issue......how is it L2P when you get spammed to death before even seeing what is going on? Yea sitting on a keep pew pewing people is avoidable by not getting in range....but that range is LONG. So go ahead, tell me I need to L2P. Nice cop out Must be a bow user/DK right

Pyatra

Varicite wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

It's easy while you are in a distance, when you are charged bow is useless. Bow user can do nothing to tanky builds. But if you use light armor and duel with bow user from distance that means that you are doing whrong and silly things but not that bow is OP. Bows are good only for glass cannons (encluding another bow users) kill.

Yes, snipe spam monkeys are *** in close combat, but skilled players are equally danger in ranged and close combat. Sorc and NB bow users can easily escape, for DK and temlar close combat shouldn't be problem.

Tanky builds are though for close combat too not just for snipe spammers!

Lack of player skills in close combat always is an argument that snipe isn't op

I think the argument is more that the bow automatically loses 12% of its damage outright when fighting in close combat, and that every single skill outside of Magnum Shot is pretty much worthless when somebody is on top of you.

But yes, bow users can certainly build to mitigate this by using another weapon and class / guild skills. That's why we have 2 weapon slots, no?

Bombard. It's an immobilize. As in the hated Talons soft CC? Encase uses it too. But this thing has a range of 20. You don't have to be a good player, just morph yo dang weapon skills and do what DKs do, throw the immobilize.

The way to beat a DK is immobilize them when they try to extend and keep them pinned there, keeps them from getting close enough for their heal to work, that is assuming your peeps are running focused aim instead of lethal arrow. Which I wonder if that debuff stacks too?

JamilaRaj

xaraan wrote: »

Part of the problem is that due to the early game imbalance of magicka/light armor - a lot of players are running around with less armor protection of light armor and getting hit by stamina builds a lot harder now. They don't hit as hard if you add an armor enchant on a jewelry or if you are wearing heavy.

Heavy however sucks especially with ongoing Snpie Issue, because Rapid Mending is useless completely and Juggernaut partially, as going melee is the last thing scale-less people would do.
With skirt one can at least spam purify more. If they only made it mini-skirt, I would use it too.

Varicite

Pyatra wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

It's easy while you are in a distance, when you are charged bow is useless. Bow user can do nothing to tanky builds. But if you use light armor and duel with bow user from distance that means that you are doing whrong and silly things but not that bow is OP. Bows are good only for glass cannons (encluding another bow users) kill.

Yes, snipe spam monkeys are *** in close combat, but skilled players are equally danger in ranged and close combat. Sorc and NB bow users can easily escape, for DK and temlar close combat shouldn't be problem.

Tanky builds are though for close combat too not just for snipe spammers!

Lack of player skills in close combat always is an argument that snipe isn't op

I think the argument is more that the bow automatically loses 12% of its damage outright when fighting in close combat, and that every single skill outside of Magnum Shot is pretty much worthless when somebody is on top of you.

But yes, bow users can certainly build to mitigate this by using another weapon and class / guild skills. That's why we have 2 weapon slots, no?

Bombard. It's an immobilize. As in the hated Talons soft CC? Encase uses it too. But this thing has a range of 20. You don't have to be a good player, just morph yo dang weapon skills and do what DKs do, throw the immobilize.

The way to beat a DK is immobilize them when they try to extend and keep them pinned there, keeps them from getting close enough for their heal to work, that is assuming your peeps are running focused aim instead of lethal arrow. Which I wonder if that debuff stacks too?

Bombard is the only AoE immobilize in the game that can be blocked and thus completely negated. It's absolutely nothing like Talons or Encase.

There is absolutely no way you are going to kill a DK by spamming Bombard, it's very expensive, low damage, and the utility is countered 100% by blocking.

You haven't used this in PvP, I take it.