Don't remove stat caps without fixing racials.

Crescent

Still_Mind wrote: »

Crescent wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

Its a limitation that does not need to be there. All it does is limit my gameplay experience. Whatever choice you make at character creation, there will come a time you may want to change your playstyle... I guess youre SOL then.

Well, from this viewpoint, it either comes down to WoW-ifying things, making everything more accessible and smooth around the edges, or reaffirming a long-established tradition of Elder Scrolls racial identity that constitutes a part of the TES universe's depth.

As far as changing gameplay goes, well, that's also where racials come in. You know you want to play strictly physical, you go Redguard, stealth damage - Khajiit, caster - Breton or Altmer, etc, etc. Wish to be more flexible - use a race with more universal abilities, like Imperial (arguably very melee, but everyone needs health, and even casters need stam in pvp, and magicka softcap is easily reached without racial boosts), or Dunmer (dual stat boost+handy fire resistance), Breton also falls in this category, because even full physical builds use class powers, and they cost Magicka.

That, or you can just roll another character. Grind-levelling is very fast, Vet ranks included. Hircine vet grind is almost too fast.

With all that said, racial powers aren't making or breaking your character. Got a Bosmer Sorc alt, made specifically for using bows, but I ended up branching out towards a caster build, and I don't find myself at a disadvantage, compared to a "real" Altmer, or Breton caster Sorc. All things considered - gear, set bonuses, build, setup, and, most importantly, the player behind the keyboard, racial talents are like 0.1% of the character's effectiveness.

You are so full of it, as if stealth damage was remotely comparable in most game formats to direct physical or magic lol.

Stealth is useless in PvE and only usable with Bow stamina builds in WvW, which does not even work in group PvP play because bow has crap aoe and no group support.


All these paragraphs of useless sophistry like "TES integrity" when the primary concern of any MMO is GAMEPLAY impact. As if a large majority of racial representation landing on the universal races and the other 4 being marginalized is in keeping with proper TES universe guidelines.

200 extra magicka, 10% extra magicka regen, 4% extra lightning damage "only 0.1% of your character" my ass. It's a massive advantage on the scale of having multiple legendary glyphs and armor pieces.

Something tells me you aren't very good at math.

200 extra magicka is not a deciding factor, regen caps are not a problem to reach, elemental damage modifier matters, but only fully affects builds like fire DK. Mathematically, in a narrow stat point summary sense, yes, it's more than 0.1% of your character. Practically, when we consider mechanics beyond linear damage-and-resource, and interactions, it's even less. If I get my rear end handed to me in Cyrodill, it's not because I had 200 less mana. It's because I'm outplayed, or because my build\gear setup is not good against that of my enemy. If I do 100 less DPS in a Trial, it's not because my racials suck - it's because I'm not paying attention, or my setup is suboptimal for the encounter.

But of course, it's so easy to blame racials for many, if not all of one's misfortunes, when, realistically, their role is grossly overstated. I'd do a "something tells me" riposte, but I think I can do without it.

You don't seem to understand the impact of racials. Every bonus they're getting that the Bosmer doesn't have, means they can put extra stats on HEALTH, which does matter in many encounters and certainly does matter in PvP.

In PvE, especially speed trials and achievements, every noticeable difference matters. This is not a 1% difference. We're talking a difference of likely 5-10% output, because resource starvation is a real thing in this game and if you're one of the races who can maintain resources better on top of having higher of a primary stat, that is a problem.

But by all means keep arguing for race marginalization for the sake of having some weird TES flavor. People like you, who refer to successful models like "WoW-ification" are the kind of people who like difference just for the sake of difference, regardless of the outcome.

Wildstar had a similar subset of people with attachment to crappy design ideas, and I guess they're the only ones remaining in that moribund game.

P.S. The difference between an imperial melee sorcerer and a bosmer melee sorcerer is extremely noticeable. If I'm gaining 5% of my HP in procs back while soloing a difficult public boss, or im not running out of stamina as a redguard as early as my Bosmer does in a trial, the difference is significant enough.

If racials were as inconsequential as you said they are, you wouldn't see the stupid skew toward the strong races in this game.

Nord certainly would not be as underpopulated as they currently are.

khele23eb17_ESO

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

Its a limitation that does not need to be there. All it does is limit my gameplay experience. Whatever choice you make at character creation, there will come a time you may want to change your playstyle... I guess youre SOL then.

Well, from this viewpoint, it either comes down to WoW-ifying things, making everything more accessible and smooth around the edges, or reaffirming a long-established tradition of Elder Scrolls racial identity that constitutes a part of the TES universe's depth.

Crafting - not so important for tradition. Combat and skill system - not that crucial for universe's depth. Non-linear storytelling and sandbox elements - *shrug* nah, who cares. Making racials not gimp you when you want to change your playstyle? Oh dear Lord, no. This is where we draw the line! That would totally WoWify the game world. We cant have that. And no, you cant change there being resource 3 bars on the screen either. Those things are f... sacred!

As far as changing gameplay goes, well, that's also where racials come in. You know you want to play strictly physical, you go Redguard, stealth damage - Khajiit, caster - Breton or Altmer, etc, etc. Wish to be more flexible - use a race with more universal abilities, like Imperial (arguably very melee, but everyone needs health, and even casters need stam in pvp, and magicka softcap is easily reached without racial boosts), or Dunmer (dual stat boost+handy fire resistance), Breton also falls in this category, because even full physical builds use class powers, and they cost Magicka.

What if I dont like the look of the races representing the playstyle im interested in? What if I change my mind about my preferred playstyle 2 months later?

That, or you can just roll another character. Grind-levelling is very fast, Vet ranks included. Hircine vet grind is almost too fast.

Ah, I see. So thats why we pay *insert the price of the sub in your local currency* a month. To grind level every character twice - once for a stamina gameplay and once for magicka gameplay. I think youre onto something here. That must be why there are 8 character slots.

With all that said, racial powers aren't making or breaking your character. Got a Bosmer Sorc alt, made specifically for using bows, but I ended up branching out towards a caster build, and I don't find myself at a disadvantage, compared to a "real" Altmer, or Breton caster Sorc. All things considered - gear, set bonuses, build, setup, and, most importantly, the player behind the keyboard, racial talents are like 0.1% of the character's effectiveness.

Lets just look at the the 10% extra stat perk. Its basically an equivalent of having 25+ additional attribute points or wearing 2-3 extra armor pieces with legendary glyphs. By my standards thats quite significant.

So it's one extreme or the other? Either full MMO-ification of TESO, or full single player title traditionalism, even if it would be unplayable in an MMO environment? Is that what you're saying? Not trying to put out a strawman, just trying to get a sense of where are we exactly.

Where did you get this from? We are where the discussion has left us. You want one sweeping, absurd statement you can easily argue against? Well, Im sorry to disappoint you but that is not what I said.

Regarding rerolls - you don't *have* to do it. You can play a perfectly functional Khajiit caster for all intents and purrposes (pun intended). My first character was a Dunmer DK firemage - rolled as a minmax choice because of how I'm used for MMOs to work, but, eventually, I loosened the grip, because TESO performance is based a lot more on mechanics, and stats play less of a role, compared to the vast, vast majority of MMOs that I've played before.

Would you feel the game is fine if one day 25 of your attribute points vanished or you suddenly couldnt equip armor pieces in 3 of your gear slots? Would you really think 'oh that doesnt matter so much anyway' and just keep playing without saying a word?

Regarding stats - not if you're already softcapped, which is not hard with v14 gear\enchants and super-easy with food.

You know caps are going away with the champion system, right? I mean its what the OP is about and its in the topic of the thread...

Still_Mind

Missed the caps part. Had a big fight with my girlfriend, not in the mood for further discussion, have a nice evening.

Nerouyn

Crescent wrote: »

I hope with 1.5 you just remove the racials altogether or change them to all be utility/QoL racials. If not just allow players to pick a boost they like with whatever race. Looks are extremely important in any MMO to players and punishing players for their aesthetic preferences is just wrong.

I mostly agree with this.

The racials which boost xp rate for a specific skill are fine. They're generally lore appropriate bonuses which have no effect at all once skills are maxed. Perfect.

But I think others stifle diversity. Too many race / profession combinations are clearly superior. Even if the differences are relatively small taking into account end-game enchants, potions, food etc., particularly in a game with PvP every little bit counts.

Anyone who says otherwise is probably someone who has one of the optimal race / profession combinations who would like to run into more non-optimal combo players in Cyrodiil.

khele23eb17_ESO

Still_Mind wrote: »

Missed the caps part. Had a big fight with my girlfriend, not in the mood for further discussion, have a nice evening.

Fair enough. Hope you and your GF can work things out.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Still_Mind wrote: »

If I do 100 less DPS in a Trial, it's not because my racials suck - it's because I'm not paying attention, or my setup is suboptimal for the encounter.

But of course, it's so easy to blame racials for many, if not all of one's misfortunes, when, realistically, their role is grossly overstated. I'd do a "something tells me" riposte, but I think I can do without it.

Actually, doing 100dps less in a trial is almost precisely what you get for picking the wrong race, i.e. not picking dunmer for your DK. Seeing as how trials are even timed basically according to the amount of dps we can do, I'd say that at least as a dps role, the dps you do is a perfectly accurate gauge of your effectiveness.

At this point, most people would argue that "player skill is so much more important than statistics!", which, while true, is completely unrelated to the discussion, because no matter how good you are, without the proper race you will be performing below your own potential.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

I think they just need to move power around a bit. Like changing the stealthy passive to a boost to crit damage across the board. Making nords and orcs generate ultimate when hit or regenerate resources. Perhaps giving orcs reduced stam costs or a flat % increase to melee hits. There are lots of ways to make the other races more appealing.

Also with a little bit of math one could make such passives in a way so to not provide a net difference in effectiveness over the other races. Different means to the same end creates diversity.

Spangla

I'm sorry but with the incoming nerf to sneak which impacts on racials aswell I really feel a race change is neccessary.

Imdrefan

Crescent wrote: »

The disparity between Imperial/Redguard/Breton/Dunmer/Altmer and the other inferior racials of races like Bosmer/Nord/Orc/Khajiit is already really bad.

You lost me on Nords. If you think 6% Damage reduction is bad I don't have much else to say.

Crescent

EVANWSEATHub17_ESO wrote: »

Crescent wrote: »

The disparity between Imperial/Redguard/Breton/Dunmer/Altmer and the other inferior racials of races like Bosmer/Nord/Orc/Khajiit is already really bad.

You lost me on Nords. If you think 6% Damage reduction is bad I don't have much else to say.

6% damage reduction is pretty bad for anyone who isn't a tank.

On any PvE environment, as a DPS you'll get 2-shot by standing at the wrong place, 6% isn't going to change anything.

What's more, the active mitigation provided by extended skill usage through greater stamina pools, the potential to absorb spike damage through a whopping 10% extra health, and Red Diamond procs, an imperial tank has far more effective HP than a nord ever will.

And that's just looking at it from a tank perspective where the nord racial is remotely useful.

Spangla

The undaunted passives are further increasing the advantage of the stronger races as they are attribute percentage based.

On the other hand any race benefiting from the sneak damage has been nerfed.

Great.

Just give me a race change.

Kronuxx

Resueht wrote: »

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

faernaa wrote: »

Good point.

But if they plan to remove caps or re-design racials, they should allow paid race change for once at least.

Or at the very least disentangle racial stat boni from races. I know it's less lore friendly, but keeping stats out of visual race choice would be more conforming with being an mmo.

How does that conform to be more like an MMO? Most (if not every) MMO I have played has racial bonuses of some sort, especially when it's an MMORPG. Otherwise everything becomes too cookie cutter.

Keep the racials buts balance them a little more.

This is what I agree with. I disagree that racials should be removed. Yes I choose my race based on aesthetics, which also turns out to have one of the most useless racials in game (talking about swiftness here). On the other hand, despite undesirable racials, they still give the player a sense of uniqueness and not that cookie-cutter experience. In addition, racials are entirely in line with what has been known for TES lore. I'm not saying the racials are well done, and in fact some of them don't quite match what is known in TES lore even. If you don't like racials, and if you are talking about how "modern MMO's" don't use them then go play that game. Why should ESO be like ArcheAge or become WoW-ified? It shouldn't. ESO is ESO, and I would like racials to stay attached to their respective races. Again this is a game backed by over 20 years of lore and previous games that have had racials. Racials should stay.

BUT if you look at my other posts about races you will see, I entirely agree that racials need a re-working, but not at the expense of ridding them entirely. Go look up the racials that were associated with Bosmer ,Orc, Nord, Khajit in the earlier TES games. I guarantee you, that if you had those racials in ESO and within the right context (ex: When it becomes night time in ESO it should be extremely difficult to see your enemy thus making the Khajiit Night Eye racial extremely useful) you would not be complaining. Essentially ZOS just needs to rebalance the racials to better fit the races associated with them within the context of ESO.

In case for those who are wondering how racials were like in previous TES games: uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

Nihil

Spangla wrote: »

The undaunted passives are further increasing the advantage of the stronger races as they are attribute percentage based.

On the other hand any race benefiting from the sneak damage has been nerfed.

Great.

Just give me a race change.

I am going to look into something before commenting on the thread in general, but the undaunted passives are actually helping the weaker classes not stronger classes. As the % are added together (at least typically) additively with each other, this means as you get a higher % to a stat the return to the increase above what you could have will be a lower % (going with extreme case to show) say you have 1k hp and some how could get a bonus that gives 100 % more hp (brings up to 2k hp) then you get 6% more hp from some other source this will bring you up to 2060 hit points (3 % increase) while giving a 6 % increase to the player who had 1k hit points.

Basically, the more sources that give you a % increase, the less dramatic of a change there will be to the increase in stats.

Spangla

No the above logic is floored. Take racials out. You have 1000 magic - Undaunted grants and extra 10% = 1100 magic plus racials give 10% thats 1210 total magic. Increasing the gain not decreasing.

Nihil

Spangla wrote: »

No the above logic is floored. Take racials out. You have 1000 magic - Undaunted grants and extra 10% = 1100 magic plus racials give 10% thats 1210 total magic. Increasing the gain not decreasing.

As I don't have the undaunted passives yet I am not sure about this, but you are saying that the % increases are multiplicative (from what I have seen they are additive but when I get back into game I will double check).

Nihil

ok just double checked. My main is dunmer, and currently has 2094 magicka, I equipped a mage guild skill giving me 2 % magicka and it went up to 2133 (39 increase) 2% increase of 2094 is 41.88, but take my base state before dunmer passive (2094 / 1.09 = ~1921) and take 2 % of that and you get 38.42 (closer then the other one).

This is really highly showing that % increases are additive so my statement before still holds that the more % increase onto a stat you have the less dramatic of an increase (percentile wise) percentage increases will be. And thus if undaunted % passives follow the same rule there is absolutely no way you could say that they are benefiting races that get a % increase to stats.

Ok the info I was looking for (roads ahead august 20th)

"we believe the Champion System may entirely remove the concept of soft caps from the game. In order to do that, we have to make sure sets, potions, abilities, and passives still feel effective, but they may need to have their numbers adjusted. In fact, to add more granularity to the system, a great deal of the numbers you’re used to now may have to change."

and from the guild summit notes on tamriel foundry
"Each source of benefit to a certain stat has it’s own caps. For example, buffs, equipment, traits, and more will each have their own independent maxima to contributing towards the overall limit."

With this it looks like the passives for the stronger races could be taking a hit once champion system rolls out (if there is a maximum that the % passives can give), while at this point in time we aren't sure how much that will actually affect it this is a slight bonus to the other races (if it does affect % passives).

With that being said having a look at the passives that are less desirable is something that should happen, similar to how they are looking into unused skills. They already slightly did this with Nords (some will argue that more health is > damage reduction but it will be dependent on how often you reach max health, and if you use damage shields and if they are determined by max health or other stats). Taking a look at stealthy ( I personally liked the idea of increased crit damage instead of increased damage from stealth, this would reduce spike potential, from stealth, but add consistent damage instead).

Helluin

Yep, I agree.
Some racial passive skills should be reworked because stats wise some races are subpar.