Don't remove stat caps without fixing racials.

Crescent

The disparity between Imperial/Redguard/Breton/Dunmer/Altmer and the other inferior racials of races like Bosmer/Nord/Orc/Khajiit is already really bad.

If you remove those stat caps without fixing the extremely situational/niche and weak racials of the Bosmer/Nord/Orc/Khajiit, you are seriously going to screw over players of these races.

You already nerfed in 1.5 Stealthy for Khajiit and Bosmer by reducing its effect in the only format where stealth attacks matter, PvP. In PvE stealthy is virtually useless in group content, and none of the aforementioned races have racials increasing stamina or magicka by 10% (Dunmer get 9/6% and extra fire damage to boot).

Also racials like Red Diamond and the Redguard's stamina proc further push those races far ahead in resource recovery.

It's just silly that for over 6 months you have allowed some races to have the equivalent of 100-200 of an extra stat while other races get crappy resistances and no offensive boosts of any significance (pathetic Bosmer and Nord 3% stamina and health boost lol).

P.S. I left out Argonians because Argonians are in the distinct position of either using potions and becoming thus one of the better racials or not consuming much in those and becoming crap. They're the one race whose racials are entirely dependent on consumable use.

I hope with 1.5 you just remove the racials altogether or change them to all be utility/QoL racials. If not just allow players to pick a boost they like with whatever race. Looks are extremely important in any MMO to players and punishing players for their aesthetic preferences is just wrong.

Soris

Good point.

But if they plan to remove caps or re-design racials, they should allow paid race change for once at least.

guybrushtb16_ESO

faernaa wrote: »

Good point.

But if they plan to remove caps or re-design racials, they should allow paid race change for once at least.

Or at the very least disentangle racial stat boni from races. I know it's less lore friendly, but keeping stats out of visual race choice would be more conforming with being an mmo.

manny254

Agree 100%

Resueht

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

faernaa wrote: »

Good point.

But if they plan to remove caps or re-design racials, they should allow paid race change for once at least.

Or at the very least disentangle racial stat boni from races. I know it's less lore friendly, but keeping stats out of visual race choice would be more conforming with being an mmo.

How does that conform to be more like an MMO? Most (if not every) MMO I have played has racial bonuses of some sort, especially when it's an MMORPG. Otherwise everything becomes too cookie cutter.

Keep the racials buts balance them a little more.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Resueht wrote: »

How does that conform to be more like an MMO? Most (if not every) MMO I have played has racial bonuses of some sort, especially when it's an MMORPG. Otherwise everything becomes too cookie cutter.

Keep the racials buts balance them a little more.

Stat racials definitely were a genre standard for a while, but most newer mmos actually stray away from them now. WoW dramatically dialed them back after release, GW2 has none, Wildstar, Archeage and SWTOR have only cosmetics or fluff like racial emotes.

IMO it just doesn't work with how the games develop over time. Especially if there's any competitive aspect to it, having your long-loved character relegated to being second best by patches while you are locked into your coices from release just doesn't sit right with many people.

This is especially true for ESO, because it does such a horribad job at documenting it's rules.

Crescent

Resueht wrote: »

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

faernaa wrote: »

Good point.

But if they plan to remove caps or re-design racials, they should allow paid race change for once at least.

Or at the very least disentangle racial stat boni from races. I know it's less lore friendly, but keeping stats out of visual race choice would be more conforming with being an mmo.

How does that conform to be more like an MMO? Most (if not every) MMO I have played has racial bonuses of some sort, especially when it's an MMORPG. Otherwise everything becomes too cookie cutter.

Keep the racials buts balance them a little more.

Maybe some MMO from the stone age. All modern MMO's have had no racials whatsoever, and if they do, the racials are non combat benefits, just flavor or quality of life stuff (like ArchAge).

I'm sorry but in this game, in a franchise where Nords are extremely popular, you obviously see a total over-representation of Imperials and Redguards for melee and Altmer/Dunmer/Breton for casters.

Nord characters are entirely marginalized, and that's just because Nord racials are the worst racials in the game by far with Orcs closely behind and then Bosmer.

Racials punish players for no reason whatsoever. Why would you in a MMORPG undermine the RPG part by forcing players to play races they don't want to just because said races have immense advantages over others.

altrego9920_ESO

Why not provide multiple racial packages to choose from when making your characters. That way you could customize your character more to how you want to play. They would still be preset, but at least then the other races would be viable for other classes or styles of play.

guybrushtb16_ESO

altrego9920_ESO wrote: »

Why not provide multiple racial packages to choose from when making your characters. That way you could customize your character more to how you want to play. They would still be preset, but at least then the other races would be viable for other classes or styles of play.

I would prefer being able to change them like we do with mundus stones now actually, let it have a 1 month cooldown and a 100k cost so it's a meaningful decision but not unchangeable forever.

Chufu

The easiest way could be:

removing all racials out of the game and put in some "non fighting" racials. Yesterday I decided to play an alt and I had a look into the racials and think: Oh I want to play dragonknight. But which class? Oh okay, I chosse darkelf. Why? Because they are "simply the best", I heard.

I know a lot of progress guilds, who don't let players in, when they have the "wrong" race for their class.

That's stupid, isn't it?

I agree that racials should be something special, because every race is unique and I love them all. But everyone of us feel better, when we can choose the one we want. I confess: I love orcs. But as a templar healer the racials are totally crappy. I love my orc instead, but that hurts me. Especially in my last raid, when somebody told me "WHAT? An orc healer? holy ***..." Well, I think my answer was great, or maybe they don't found another healer, but WHY do the people care so much about racials?

So, back to my first point: Put in some non-fighting-racials. I'll give you an example:

Argonian:
The masters of the water. They can swim 50% faster in the water.

Nord:
They are fighters and they are trained by the snow of skyrim. They get a bonus for icy regions: 1% faster running in regions with snow and ice

Dunmer/Darkelf:
They are trained by the ashes of the volcan. They get a bonus for dry regions: 1% faster running in regions like a desert or with volcans.

Orc:
Orcs are blacksmithes, the best all over the world of Tamriel. So they get a bonus for blacksmithing: They can craft 1 second faster then all other races.

Manmer/Breton:
They are intelligent and smart. They get a bonus for trading: 1% more running speed in cities.

Redguard:
They have stamina, discipline and distrust magics. They get a bonus for running: If the stamina is < 5%, they can run 1% faster in every zone.

Khajiit:
Slow fall ---> you get 2% less damage by falling from a distance above 6 meters, but if you are falling from above 20 meters, you'll die (like all other races)

Altmer/Highelf:
They love clothes. They can craft 1 second faster in tailoring then all other races.

Bosmer/Woodelf:
Master of bows. They can craft 1 second faster in woodworking then all other races.

Imperial:
They are intelligent and silver-tongued. They get a bonus for merchants: With a little luck (10% chance) they get 10Gold extra from one person they speak to.

Just an example, what new non-fighting-racials could be. Please feel free to correct me anyway or give ZOS new ideas!

To put it in a nutshell: I agree with removing the racials, because a lot of people can play then what they want and not what the raid or guild wants. But think about other passives, non-fighting-racials!

Still_Mind

I agree with the sentiment that racial bonuses should be better balanced, but I'm firmly against marginalizing them, turning them into meaningless cosmetics.

It's an Elder Scrolls game. Here, races are a lot more than just different graphics for your toon. They have deep cultural backgrounds, they have their own feel and style, and abilities that support and reinforce that feel. ZOE knew this, but ZOE also knew that it's an MMO, so they "smoothed out" the classic TES racial differences (imagine how much crying Orcish Blood Rage would cause, for example). Yes, it needs further balancing. No, racials don't need to be turned into a farce.

michaelb14a_ESO2

Chufu wrote: »

I know a lot of progress guilds, who don't let players in, when they have the "wrong" race for their class.

I call BS. This sounds like one giant hyperbole. I have never, ever heard of this... even from the most extreme of l33t guilds.

Still_Mind

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Chufu wrote: »

I know a lot of progress guilds, who don't let players in, when they have the "wrong" race for their class.

I call BS. This sounds like one giant hyperbole. I have never, ever heard of this... even from the most extreme of l33t guilds.

Same. At least from the EU server experience.

This isn't WoW. But even in WoW, at its lowest point, racism was almost non-existent.

Erock25

My khajit sorc would love it if other altmer sorc's didn't passively have 250 more magicka, 14 more magicka regen, and 4% more elemental dmg. That is nothing to sneeze at compared to the big fat 0 bonuses I'm getting from my racials as a spell slinging sorc.

Father

I like my racial passives on my bosmer.
If I had another choice for my NB I would choose imperial just for the health bonus.
But overall I like it and find it more attractive for my style of gaming, dmg boosters from stealth is no joke.
After the sneak dmg nerf, its more reasonable to pick these races (bosmer and khajit),bosmer would be awsome for WW nb build

guybrushtb16_ESO

Father wrote: »

I like my racial passives on my bosmer.
If I had another choice for my NB I would choose imperial just for the health bonus.
But overall I like it and find it more attractive for my style of gaming, dmg boosters from stealth is no joke.
After the sneak dmg nerf, its more reasonable to pick these races (bosmer and khajit),bosmer would be awsome for WW nb build

AFAIK the boni to stealth attacks were multiplicative with the overall damage of sneak attacks, which would actually make them overall less valuable now.

In any case, if you are going for a stamina build, imperial is most likely a much better choice than any of the races with either very small or no stat boni. +10% stam and +12% health effectively translates to a sheer +22% health bonus (assuming you softcap stamina anyway, like everybody does), and IMO that is just too good to pass up in pvp.

Crescent

Father wrote: »

I like my racial passives on my bosmer.
If I had another choice for my NB I would choose imperial just for the health bonus.
But overall I like it and find it more attractive for my style of gaming, dmg boosters from stealth is no joke.
After the sneak dmg nerf, its more reasonable to pick these races (bosmer and khajit),bosmer would be awsome for WW nb build

It's bad. You trade 10% extra stamina for 10% extra damage on stealth attacks, which is useless in PvE and useless for magicka builds in PvP. It's also just a burst boost fo an encounter engagement that's far inferior on long lasting fights, and it's not even that great against foes with impenetrable trait.

Sord

I am glad to see that ESO has actual racial stats, like most of you said most mmorpg don't have real racial stats. I feel they are needed as racial stats should play a role in determining what and how you play, it has in all past Elder Scroll games and it should here. I agree a few races have some flat rate bonuses over others but you knew that going into your race that they are built more for magic use vs fighting, some are better stealthers. I do feel that each race should have at least one 10% bonus to one stat, one weapon/armor style bonus and one unique ability bonus (stealth for khajit and bosmer, damage reduction for nord, etc) and then a simple cosmetic racial that is connected to another bonus; like Argonians swimming bonus. This way it levels the playing field but it also gives each race some unique flare because that is what the vast majority of that race is known for, like when we think Redguard we think warrior, khajit is a stealthy assassin, altmer are smart mages, you get my drift.

KEEP RACIAL BONUS PLEASE just change them some as stated above.

PS I don't want to see this game end up like WoW where every race is pretty much the same and so is each class and the roles they play. In WoW you don't pick a class you pick a style of play tank, dps (Ranged or in your face) or healer. That is boring and lame.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

Perhaps a better solution would be to alter some of the passives - for instance bosmer and khajit could simply do a % extra to crit damage so that their stealth boost remains as is but also boosts their performance in PVE to match other races. Perhaps gives nords resource recovery on being hit similar to adrenaline rush but for tanking, and orcs a more lore friendly % damage boost on melee attacks instead of their sprint / charge passive. I would hate to see racials being nerfed overall or to see race changes even being for a moment considered as an option.

Anywho the devs do see your feed back and are working on changes. Just know that complaining, threatening to leave or any other forms of useless noise making don't help them figure out how to fix things.

khele23eb17_ESO

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

Still_Mind

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

khele23eb17_ESO

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

guybrushtb16_ESO

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

This is one of my main gripes about the system. It heavily encourages you to try new things on the same character with the different skill lines, but for optimal performance you are still locked into your choice from character creation.

I know my redguard melee sorc could theoretically change to a caster at some point, but in practice I'd never do that as he would just lose too much compared to a true caster race.

Still_Mind

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

I do agree that it should be better outlined on the character creation screen.

fiftypercentgrey

I knew what I was doing when I rolled a Bosmer.. then they changed the stealth racial. :-/

khele23eb17_ESO

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

Its a limitation that does not need to be there. All it does is limit my gameplay experience. Whatever choice you make at character creation, there will come a time you may want to change your playstyle... I guess youre SOL then.

Still_Mind

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

Its a limitation that does not need to be there. All it does is limit my gameplay experience. Whatever choice you make at character creation, there will come a time you may want to change your playstyle... I guess youre SOL then.

Well, from this viewpoint, it either comes down to WoW-ifying things, making everything more accessible and smooth around the edges, or reaffirming a long-established tradition of Elder Scrolls racial identity that constitutes a part of the TES universe's depth.

As far as changing gameplay goes, well, that's also where racials come in. You know you want to play strictly physical, you go Redguard, stealth damage - Khajiit, caster - Breton or Altmer, etc, etc. Wish to be more flexible - use a race with more universal abilities, like Imperial (arguably very melee, but everyone needs health, and even casters need stam in pvp, and magicka softcap is easily reached without racial boosts), or Dunmer (dual stat boost+handy fire resistance), Breton also falls in this category, because even full physical builds use class powers, and they cost Magicka.

That, or you can just roll another character. Grind-levelling is very fast, Vet ranks included. Hircine vet grind is almost too fast.

With all that said, racial powers aren't making or breaking your character. Got a Bosmer Sorc alt, made specifically for using bows, but I ended up branching out towards a caster build, and I don't find myself at a disadvantage, compared to a "real" Altmer, or Breton caster Sorc. All things considered - gear, set bonuses, build, setup, and, most importantly, the player behind the keyboard, racial talents are like 0.1% of the character's effectiveness.

Crescent

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

Its a limitation that does not need to be there. All it does is limit my gameplay experience. Whatever choice you make at character creation, there will come a time you may want to change your playstyle... I guess youre SOL then.

Well, from this viewpoint, it either comes down to WoW-ifying things, making everything more accessible and smooth around the edges, or reaffirming a long-established tradition of Elder Scrolls racial identity that constitutes a part of the TES universe's depth.

As far as changing gameplay goes, well, that's also where racials come in. You know you want to play strictly physical, you go Redguard, stealth damage - Khajiit, caster - Breton or Altmer, etc, etc. Wish to be more flexible - use a race with more universal abilities, like Imperial (arguably very melee, but everyone needs health, and even casters need stam in pvp, and magicka softcap is easily reached without racial boosts), or Dunmer (dual stat boost+handy fire resistance), Breton also falls in this category, because even full physical builds use class powers, and they cost Magicka.

That, or you can just roll another character. Grind-levelling is very fast, Vet ranks included. Hircine vet grind is almost too fast.

With all that said, racial powers aren't making or breaking your character. Got a Bosmer Sorc alt, made specifically for using bows, but I ended up branching out towards a caster build, and I don't find myself at a disadvantage, compared to a "real" Altmer, or Breton caster Sorc. All things considered - gear, set bonuses, build, setup, and, most importantly, the player behind the keyboard, racial talents are like 0.1% of the character's effectiveness.

You are so full of it, as if stealth damage was remotely comparable in most game formats to direct physical or magic lol.

Stealth is useless in PvE and only usable with Bow stamina builds in WvW, which does not even work in group PvP play because bow has crap aoe and no group support.


All these paragraphs of useless sophistry like "TES integrity" when the primary concern of any MMO is GAMEPLAY impact. As if a large majority of racial representation landing on the universal races and the other 4 being marginalized is in keeping with proper TES universe guidelines.

200 extra magicka, 10% extra magicka regen, 4% extra lightning damage "only 0.1% of your character" my ass. It's a massive advantage on the scale of having multiple legendary glyphs and armor pieces.

Something tells me you aren't very good at math.

Still_Mind

Crescent wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

Its a limitation that does not need to be there. All it does is limit my gameplay experience. Whatever choice you make at character creation, there will come a time you may want to change your playstyle... I guess youre SOL then.

Well, from this viewpoint, it either comes down to WoW-ifying things, making everything more accessible and smooth around the edges, or reaffirming a long-established tradition of Elder Scrolls racial identity that constitutes a part of the TES universe's depth.

As far as changing gameplay goes, well, that's also where racials come in. You know you want to play strictly physical, you go Redguard, stealth damage - Khajiit, caster - Breton or Altmer, etc, etc. Wish to be more flexible - use a race with more universal abilities, like Imperial (arguably very melee, but everyone needs health, and even casters need stam in pvp, and magicka softcap is easily reached without racial boosts), or Dunmer (dual stat boost+handy fire resistance), Breton also falls in this category, because even full physical builds use class powers, and they cost Magicka.

That, or you can just roll another character. Grind-levelling is very fast, Vet ranks included. Hircine vet grind is almost too fast.

With all that said, racial powers aren't making or breaking your character. Got a Bosmer Sorc alt, made specifically for using bows, but I ended up branching out towards a caster build, and I don't find myself at a disadvantage, compared to a "real" Altmer, or Breton caster Sorc. All things considered - gear, set bonuses, build, setup, and, most importantly, the player behind the keyboard, racial talents are like 0.1% of the character's effectiveness.

You are so full of it, as if stealth damage was remotely comparable in most game formats to direct physical or magic lol.

Stealth is useless in PvE and only usable with Bow stamina builds in WvW, which does not even work in group PvP play because bow has crap aoe and no group support.


All these paragraphs of useless sophistry like "TES integrity" when the primary concern of any MMO is GAMEPLAY impact. As if a large majority of racial representation landing on the universal races and the other 4 being marginalized is in keeping with proper TES universe guidelines.

200 extra magicka, 10% extra magicka regen, 4% extra lightning damage "only 0.1% of your character" my ass. It's a massive advantage on the scale of having multiple legendary glyphs and armor pieces.

Something tells me you aren't very good at math.

200 extra magicka is not a deciding factor, regen caps are not a problem to reach, elemental damage modifier matters, but only fully affects builds like fire DK. Mathematically, in a narrow stat point summary sense, yes, it's more than 0.1% of your character. Practically, when we consider mechanics beyond linear damage-and-resource, and interactions, it's even less. If I get my rear end handed to me in Cyrodill, it's not because I had 200 less mana. It's because I'm outplayed, or because my build\gear setup is not good against that of my enemy. If I do 100 less DPS in a Trial, it's not because my racials suck - it's because I'm not paying attention, or my setup is suboptimal for the encounter.

But of course, it's so easy to blame racials for many, if not all of one's misfortunes, when, realistically, their role is grossly overstated. I'd do a "something tells me" riposte, but I think I can do without it.

khele23eb17_ESO

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

Its a limitation that does not need to be there. All it does is limit my gameplay experience. Whatever choice you make at character creation, there will come a time you may want to change your playstyle... I guess youre SOL then.

Well, from this viewpoint, it either comes down to WoW-ifying things, making everything more accessible and smooth around the edges, or reaffirming a long-established tradition of Elder Scrolls racial identity that constitutes a part of the TES universe's depth.

Crafting - not so important for tradition. Combat and skill system - not that crucial for universe's depth. Non-linear storytelling and sandbox elements - *shrug* nah, who cares. Making racials not gimp you when you want to change your playstyle? Oh dear Lord, no. This is where we draw the line! That would totally WoWify the game world. We cant have that. And no, you cant change there being resource 3 bars on the screen either. Those things are f... sacred!

As far as changing gameplay goes, well, that's also where racials come in. You know you want to play strictly physical, you go Redguard, stealth damage - Khajiit, caster - Breton or Altmer, etc, etc. Wish to be more flexible - use a race with more universal abilities, like Imperial (arguably very melee, but everyone needs health, and even casters need stam in pvp, and magicka softcap is easily reached without racial boosts), or Dunmer (dual stat boost+handy fire resistance), Breton also falls in this category, because even full physical builds use class powers, and they cost Magicka.

What if I dont like the look of the races representing the playstyle im interested in? What if I change my mind about my preferred playstyle 2 months later?

That, or you can just roll another character. Grind-levelling is very fast, Vet ranks included. Hircine vet grind is almost too fast.

Ah, I see. So thats why we pay *insert the price of the sub in your local currency* a month. To grind level every character twice - once for a stamina gameplay and once for magicka gameplay. I think youre onto something here. That must be why there are 8 character slots.

With all that said, racial powers aren't making or breaking your character. Got a Bosmer Sorc alt, made specifically for using bows, but I ended up branching out towards a caster build, and I don't find myself at a disadvantage, compared to a "real" Altmer, or Breton caster Sorc. All things considered - gear, set bonuses, build, setup, and, most importantly, the player behind the keyboard, racial talents are like 0.1% of the character's effectiveness.

Lets just look at the the 10% extra stat perk. Its basically an equivalent of having 25+ additional attribute points or wearing 2-3 extra armor pieces with legendary glyphs. By my standards thats quite significant.

Still_Mind

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Personally Id like to see racials changed into a kind of background system. Regardless of race you would choose where you were raised, what you learned as you were growing up, what you were trained in thus gaining appropriate passives. Later on, if you decided to change your playstyle, you would be able to travel to a zone of the race specialising in the passive you want and do dailies there for a week or two to acquire it, replacing one of your old passives.

QoL for players and game longevity increased. Win-win.

I'd rather have paid character recustomization (including race change) than this. Pay Meridia with "god-money" to change your DNA or something... And I'm not a fan of microtransactions.

It's Elder Scrolls. Races here are so much more than the graphic for your toon. A Breton warrior plays (and feels) different than an Orc warrior, in single-player titles. What ZOE needs to do is for racials to better reflect the strengths of this race or the other. I think Bretons, Redguards and Altmer are excellent measuring sticks for others to be measured against.

It is an MMO. Noone should be punished with lesser stats for their cosmetic choices. So I roll an Altmer NB and after a while I get bored of the caster gameplay and want to play a stamina based melee character... do you honestly think the only choices here should be: play a gimped character, level a new NB of a different race to vr14 or pay Zenimax 10-20 bucks?

That's right. It's an MMO. Except race here is not a cosmetic choice - it's a gameplay choice, as well.

Its a limitation that does not need to be there. All it does is limit my gameplay experience. Whatever choice you make at character creation, there will come a time you may want to change your playstyle... I guess youre SOL then.

Well, from this viewpoint, it either comes down to WoW-ifying things, making everything more accessible and smooth around the edges, or reaffirming a long-established tradition of Elder Scrolls racial identity that constitutes a part of the TES universe's depth.

Crafting - not so important for tradition. Combat and skill system - not that crucial for universe's depth. Non-linear storytelling and sandbox elements - *shrug* nah, who cares. Making racials not gimp you when you want to change your playstyle? Oh dear Lord, no. This is where we draw the line! That would totally WoWify the game world. We cant have that. And no, you cant change there being resource 3 bars on the screen either. Those things are f... sacred!

As far as changing gameplay goes, well, that's also where racials come in. You know you want to play strictly physical, you go Redguard, stealth damage - Khajiit, caster - Breton or Altmer, etc, etc. Wish to be more flexible - use a race with more universal abilities, like Imperial (arguably very melee, but everyone needs health, and even casters need stam in pvp, and magicka softcap is easily reached without racial boosts), or Dunmer (dual stat boost+handy fire resistance), Breton also falls in this category, because even full physical builds use class powers, and they cost Magicka.

What if I dont like the look of the races representing the playstyle im interested in? What if I change my mind about my preferred playstyle 2 months later?

That, or you can just roll another character. Grind-levelling is very fast, Vet ranks included. Hircine vet grind is almost too fast.

Ah, I see. So thats why we pay *insert the price of the sub in your local currency* a month. To grind level every character twice - once for a stamina gameplay and once for magicka gameplay. I think youre onto something here. That must be why there are 8 character slots.

With all that said, racial powers aren't making or breaking your character. Got a Bosmer Sorc alt, made specifically for using bows, but I ended up branching out towards a caster build, and I don't find myself at a disadvantage, compared to a "real" Altmer, or Breton caster Sorc. All things considered - gear, set bonuses, build, setup, and, most importantly, the player behind the keyboard, racial talents are like 0.1% of the character's effectiveness.

Lets just look at the the 10% extra stat perk. Its basically an equivalent of having 25+ additional attribute points or wearing 2-3 extra armor pieces with legendary glyphs. By my standards thats quite significant.

So it's one extreme or the other? Either full MMO-ification of TESO, or full single player title traditionalism, even if it would be unplayable in an MMO environment? Is that what you're saying? Not trying to put out a strawman, just trying to get a sense of where are we exactly.

Regarding rerolls - you don't *have* to do it. You can play a perfectly functional Khajiit caster for all intents and purrposes (pun intended). My first character was a Dunmer DK firemage - rolled as a minmax choice because of how I'm used for MMOs to work, but, eventually, I loosened the grip, because TESO performance is based a lot more on mechanics, and stats play less of a role, compared to the vast, vast majority of MMOs that I've played before.

Regarding stats - not if you're already softcapped, which is not hard with v14 gear\enchants and super-easy with food.