PTS TESTING - TWO-HAND (Add your own)

ExiledKhallisi

(Will be adding more.)

MOMENTUM (RALLY morph): Rally is really great and looks like a substantial buff but not overpowered. One issue I see is you can benefit from the HOT with any weapon. Just cast rally and swap. Not sure if intentional.

FORCEFUL (Passive):
Doesnt work unless enemies are almost on top of each other.

tinythinker

I've included a good bit of info, some may be of interest, some may not, so please skip to whatever you find useful.

Qualifiers:

• I have two VR characters that use all weapons, and one is at 50 with all but a couple (which are high 40s), but I wanted to try out a class I've only recently started leveling, a Nightblade, to see what might work at higher levels.
• I also want to be able to provide leveling feedback if needed, so I used the VR12 template and the medium armor gear that came with it (the entire Orphidian Set). I didn't use jewelry for this brief initial test, nor potions, to get a better sense of things since I was decked out in all legendary gear. Weapon was Greatsword of Advancing Yokuda (base damage 164).
• Race set to Argonian, while attributes set to 30 magicka, 20 health, 10 stamina.
• All passives for relevant skill lines were taken, and the game starts you at max rank for all active abilties.
• My opponents were generic overland Craglorn mobs, like dunerippers, giant scorpions and wasps, etc
• I also decided to use a few abilities or morphs I've never tried or just never use; hence, I had no practice using them (together). The results are from someone who just threw a bar together and ran off to see how it worked.

Skill Bar

One bar was Two Handed, the other Bow, and since this is a Two Hander thread I will comment only on the former (though I was pleasantly surprised by the latter).

1- Shadowy Disguise (have used a good bit leveling lowbie NB)

Nightblade ability from Shadow skill line, morph of Shadowcloak. It grants invisibility for 2.9 seconds and grants 100% spell & weapon critical chance.

2- Wrecking Blow (rarely used on VR14 DK and VR12 Templar)

Two Handed ability, morph of Uppercut. It deals 566 damage, stuns target for 3.5 seconds, and knocks back target 4 meters. Next attack (other than Wrecking Blow) gains 50 weapon power. Both morphs were given reduced cast time and increased damage for Update 1.5.

3-Focused Attacks (never used before)

Nightblade ability from Assassination skill line, morph of Haste. It increases the speed of light and heavy attacks by 30% and increases stamina recovery while in combat by 40%.

4-Leeching Strikes (never used before)

Nightblade ability from Siphoning skill line, morph of Siphoning Strikes. It toggles (at no magicka cost) to return 3% magicka/stamina and 2% health per light/heavy attack, with a 10% chance each blow to restore 15% stamina/magicka. In exchange, the player's weapon/spell damage is decreased by 22%.

5-Rally (never used before)

Two Handed ability, morph of Momentum. Significantly altered in Update 1.5, it increases Two Handed weapon damage by a flat 20% for 33 seconds and heals the caster every two seconds and increases value over time. Can be activated again for instant heal.

Results & Discussion

The idea was to try out an average, rather than a min-maxed, build as well as to try out new abilities and combinations that revolve around the changes to the Two Handed skill line.

I really enjoyed it, but there are some wrinkles to be ironed out (or at least rotations to be refined and practiced). The bar above is mean to focus on single-target damage, and it does that very well. It also focuses on basic weapon attacks.

It's also a simple to use bar. Slot 4 is simply left toggled on and 3 and 5 are periodically refreshed. Slots 1 and 2 are used as needed. For example, stealth and approach the target, activate Shadowy Disguise for critical hit, then start the Wrecking Blow. The target is now knocked back and stunned and you are primed for an extra 50 weapon power on your next swing - a heavy attack. That attack will be rapid, as will the next, which will benefit from a 10% increase in damage thanks to the new Follow Up passive. (That passive as well as the buff from Rally negate the debuff from Leeching Strikes.)

At that point, you can just repeat the above scenario. I chose instead to follow with another Wrecking Blow and some rapid heavy attacks before using Shadowy Disguise again, given that my character is benefiting from doing so in gains to attack speed, damage, and resource return. The specifics of the fight will determine if a change is needed from blow to blow.

I also tried swapping in Reverse Slice, which in this update has an increased area of effect and can hit more targets, for Wrecking Blow, to see how it handled the duneripper adds. My assessment was that it was less than impressive in that regard, so I simply swapped over to Bow and used the new snare added to Bombard and the increased damage per tick/longer effect of Volley to weaken them before swapping back to try Reverse Slice again. Goodbye adds.

After all, Reverse Slash and its morphs are meant to be finishers for low health targets. Perhaps Cleave instead of Shadowy Disguise and Reverse Slice instead of Wrecking Blow would fit better for multiple mob battles if you didn't want to swap to a different bar for AoE, especially now that Cleave hits for more damage and can hit for critical damage on top of that. Or, just go both bars for Two Handed and get the best of both setups if you don't mind losing a ranged option.

The changes from 1.5 really make the idea of a (Nightblade) build centered on regular Two Handed weapon attacks much more appealing as you can keep going and going like the Energizer Bunny while piling on the damage.

Concerns

In one-on-one fights the bar worked really, really well and I was never worried about resource management unless my opponent summoned adds. However, at times Wrecking Blow didn't want to activate. On one occasion I was using Shadowy Disguise and on another I was not. It just didn't want to activate. And there was no cool-down as I could go right from one Wrecking Blow into another (and sacrifice the weapon power bonus, not recommended).

ExiledKhallisi

tinythinker wrote: »

I've included a good bit of info, some may be of interest, some may not, so please skip to whatever you find useful.

Qualifiers:

• I have two VR characters that use all weapons, and one is at 50 with all but a couple (which are high 40s), but I wanted to try out a class I've only recently started leveling, a Nightblade, to see what might work at higher levels.
• I also want to be able to provide leveling feedback if needed, so I used the VR12 template and the medium armor gear that came with it (the entire Orphidian Set). I didn't use jewelry for this brief initial test, nor potions, to get a better sense of things since I was decked out in all legendary gear. Weapon was Greatsword of Advancing Yokuda (base damage 164).
• Race set to Argonian, while attributes set to 30 magicka, 20 health, 10 stamina.
• All passives for relevant skill lines were taken, and the game starts you at max rank for all active abilties.
• My opponents were generic overland Craglorn mobs, like dunerippers, giant scorpions and wasps, etc
• I also decided to use a few abilities or morphs I've never tried or just never use; hence, I had no practice using them (together). The results are from someone who just threw a bar together and ran off to see how it worked.

Skill Bar

One bar was Two Handed, the other Bow, and since this is a Two Hander thread I will comment only on the former (though I was pleasantly surprised by the latter).

1- Shadowy Disguise (have used a good bit leveling lowbie NB)

Nightblade ability from Shadow skill line, morph of Shadowcloak. It grants invisibility for 2.9 seconds and grants 100% spell & weapon critical chance.

2- Wrecking Blow (rarely used on VR14 DK and VR12 Templar)

Two Handed ability, morph of Uppercut. It deals 566 damage, stuns target for 3.5 seconds, and knocks back target 4 meters. Next attack (other than Wrecking Blow) gains 50 weapon power. Both morphs were given reduced cast time and increased damage for Update 1.5.

3-Focused Attacks (never used before)

Nightblade ability from Assassination skill line, morph of Haste. It increases the speed of light and heavy attacks by 30% and increases stamina recovery while in combat by 40%.

4-Leeching Strikes (never used before)

Nightblade ability from Siphoning skill line, morph of Siphoning Strikes. It toggles (at no magicka cost) to return 3% magicka/stamina and 2% health per light/heavy attack, with a 10% chance each blow to restore 15% stamina/magicka. In exchange, the player's weapon/spell damage is decreased by 22%.

5-Rally (never used before)

Two Handed ability, morph of Momentum. Significantly altered in Update 1.5, it increases Two Handed weapon damage by a flat 20% for 33 seconds and heals the caster every two seconds and increases value over time. Can be activated again for instant heal.

Results & Discussion

The idea was to try out an average, rather than a min-maxed, build as well as to try out new abilities and combinations that revolve around the changes to the Two Handed skill line.

I really enjoyed it, but there are some wrinkles to be ironed out (or at least rotations to be refined and practiced). The bar above is mean to focus on single-target damage, and it does that very well. It also focuses on basic weapon attacks.

It's also a simple to use bar. Slot 4 is simply left toggled on and 3 and 5 are periodically refreshed. Slots 1 and 2 are used as needed. For example, stealth and approach the target, activate Shadowy Disguise for critical hit, then start the Wrecking Blow. The target is now knocked back and stunned and you are primed for an extra 50 weapon power on your next swing - a heavy attack. That attack will be rapid, as will the next, which will benefit from a 10% increase in damage thanks to the new Follow Up passive. (That passive as well as the buff from Rally negate the debuff from Leeching Strikes.)

At that point, you can just repeat the above scenario. I chose instead to follow with another Wrecking Blow and some rapid heavy attacks before using Shadowy Disguise again, given that my character is benefiting from doing so in gains to attack speed, damage, and resource return. The specifics of the fight will determine if a change is needed from blow to blow.

I also tried swapping in Reverse Slice, which in this update has an increased area of effect and can hit more targets, for Wrecking Blow, to see how it handled the duneripper adds. My assessment was that it was less than impressive in that regard, so I simply swapped over to Bow and used the new snare added to Bombard and the increased damage per tick/longer effect of Volley to weaken them before swapping back to try Reverse Slice again. Goodbye adds.

After all, Reverse Slash and its morphs are meant to be finishers for low health targets. Perhaps Cleave instead of Shadowy Disguise and Reverse Slice instead of Wrecking Blow would fit better for multiple mob battles if you didn't want to swap to a different bar for AoE, especially now that Cleave hits for more damage and can hit for critical damage on top of that. Or, just go both bars for Two Handed and get the best of both setups if you don't mind losing a ranged option.

The changes from 1.5 really make the idea of a (Nightblade) build centered on regular Two Handed weapon attacks much more appealing as you can keep going and going like the Energizer Bunny while piling on the damage.

Concerns

In one-on-one fights the bar worked really, really well and I was never worried about resource management unless my opponent summoned adds. However, at times Wrecking Blow didn't want to activate. On one occasion I was using Shadowy Disguise and on another I was not. It just didn't want to activate. And there was no cool-down as I could go right from one Wrecking Blow into another (and sacrifice the weapon power bonus, not recommended).

Your base stamina is to low to make good use of stamina abilities.

ExiledKhallisi

One of the reasons a lot of stamina builds fail is they try to hard to be hybrid. The sad truth is you are either a stamina build or a magic a build.

Effective Magicka builds can use stamina skills for utility.
Effective Stamina builds can use magicka skills for utility.

danovic

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

One of the reasons a lot of stamina builds fail is they try to hard to be hybrid. The sad truth is you are either a stamina build or a magic a build.

Effective Magicka builds can use stamina skills for utility.
Effective Stamina builds can use magicka skills for utility.

But isn't that the problem? Total magic build don't need stamina at all. You have no choice to use them both with stamina builds. A total stamina build is unplayable.

ExiledKhallisi

danovic wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

One of the reasons a lot of stamina builds fail is they try to hard to be hybrid. The sad truth is you are either a stamina build or a magic a build.

Effective Magicka builds can use stamina skills for utility.
Effective Stamina builds can use magicka skills for utility.

But isn't that the problem? Total magic build don't need stamina at all. You have no choice to use them both with stamina builds. A total stamina build is unplayable.

100% incorrect.
1.4k sustained single target DPS. On PTS I do even more. I use magicka only as utility.


However, just because it can be done doesn't mean there aren't issues. There are a select group of skills each class MAINLY uses. The rest are fodder. IMO the long awaited buffs to the not very used class skills needs to have happened yesterday.

guybrushtb16_ESO

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

One of the reasons a lot of stamina builds fail is they try to hard to be hybrid. The sad truth is you are either a stamina build or a magic a build.

Effective Magicka builds can use stamina skills for utility.
Effective Stamina builds can use magicka skills for utility.

But isn't that the problem? Total magic build don't need stamina at all. You have no choice to use them both with stamina builds. A total stamina build is unplayable.

100% incorrect.
1.4k sustained single target DPS. On PTS I do even more. I use magicka only as utility.


However, just because it can be done doesn't mean there aren't issues. There are a select group of skills each class MAINLY uses. The rest are fodder. IMO the long awaited buffs to the not very used class skills needs to have happened yesterday.

Seeing that you seem to have some experience with the melee sorc builds, how are they holding up resource-wise in prolonged sustained dps scenarios?

I'm contemplating rolling one and am torn between imp and redguard; the resource generation of redguard seems to be really strong on paper, but I don't know if I'd get much out of it if the rotation is already sustainable from just potions and heavy attacks.

ExiledKhallisi

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

One of the reasons a lot of stamina builds fail is they try to hard to be hybrid. The sad truth is you are either a stamina build or a magic a build.

Effective Magicka builds can use stamina skills for utility.
Effective Stamina builds can use magicka skills for utility.

But isn't that the problem? Total magic build don't need stamina at all. You have no choice to use them both with stamina builds. A total stamina build is unplayable.

100% incorrect.
1.4k sustained single target DPS. On PTS I do even more. I use magicka only as utility.


However, just because it can be done doesn't mean there aren't issues. There are a select group of skills each class MAINLY uses. The rest are fodder. IMO the long awaited buffs to the not very used class skills needs to have happened yesterday.

Seeing that you seem to have some experience with the melee sorc builds, how are they holding up resource-wise in prolonged sustained dps scenarios?

I'm contemplating rolling one and am torn between imp and redguard; the resource generation of redguard seems to be really strong on paper, but I don't know if I'd get much out of it if the rotation is already sustainable from just potions and heavy attacks.

Being a redguard and the new stamina gain with heavy attack in combination makes sustaining stamina easy. We also get a passive thatreduces stamina cost as a sorc

danovic

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

One of the reasons a lot of stamina builds fail is they try to hard to be hybrid. The sad truth is you are either a stamina build or a magic a build.

Effective Magicka builds can use stamina skills for utility.
Effective Stamina builds can use magicka skills for utility.

But isn't that the problem? Total magic build don't need stamina at all. You have no choice to use them both with stamina builds. A total stamina build is unplayable.

100% incorrect.
1.4k sustained single target DPS. On PTS I do even more. I use magicka only as utility.


However, just because it can be done doesn't mean there aren't issues. There are a select group of skills each class MAINLY uses. The rest are fodder. IMO the long awaited buffs to the not very used class skills needs to have happened yesterday.

Tried the same thing maxing out stamina with full bar of two handed traits after a few blocks of heavy attacks a roll out of aoe and a bash to interrupt caster I was always out of stamina for further attacks. So i stand there doing nothing or swig a stamina potion every fight or heavy attack which is very slow standing there to regain some stamina. Stamina will never be right with the amount expended blocking rolling and bashing. So you should check your percentages again.

tinythinker

tinythinker wrote: »

The idea was to try out an average, rather than a min-maxed, build as well as to try out new abilities and combinations that revolve around the changes to the Two Handed skill line.

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Your base stamina is to low to make good use of stamina abilities.

As I originally wrote, my goal wasn't to do a min-max test, it was to try to see how the abilities functioned for an average, run of the mill build. The kind many players have. If I had wanted to min-max, I would have gone the standard route and chosen Redguard or Imperial or the like for more stamina bonuses, putting more attribute points into stamina, and so on.

The fact that the bar being tested worked really well for a middle-of-the road character, that it still did decent damage and had good resources sustainability, suggests even better things for using such a bar with a build that is more focused on maximizing stamina. And the fact that the bar worked as well as it did was largely due to the changes made to the Two Handed skill line, which I was also emphasizing, as there are still those curious about the significance of those changes.

Previously I was considering Two Handed as something my low level Nightblade might want to look into just for the Shadowy Disguise/Wrecking Blow synergy for ambushing, which seems to be pretty common. I could do that with a magicka build or hybrid and still get a lot of use out of it, especially with weapon power bonuses from gear, boons, or potions. Just have four magicka class skills on the bar and carry a big sword. Now I am looking at Two Handed as a more broadly useful tool, and considering the possibility of trying out a stamina build instead.

ExiledKhallisi

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

Erock25

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

You do 1400 sustained DPS in PVE as a 2h user and you don't use wrecking blow?

Resueht

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

It's great for single target damage...if there is only a single target agro'd on you. The hardest problem I have with 2H is more than 3 mobs. Not really sure how to handle that many more with just weapon skills. But I guess that's what my sorc skills are for. Use magic for stuns or damage mitigation.

This is why I'm a little uncertain about the Rally morph. It uses stamina, right? I have been using crit surge for my heals since my crit chance is pretty high and crit rush is guaranteed heal. I like that cause I don't use my magic pool for anything else (except constant Bound Armaments). Now I have Rally (a better utility for me) pulling from stamina. Not sure if I will be able to sustain stamina...

Warraxx

Resueht wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

... Not sure if I will be able to sustain stamina...

LOL, welcome to the party pal.

ExiledKhallisi

Erock25 wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

You do 1400 sustained DPS in PVE as a 2h user and you don't use wrecking blow?

Correct.

Cheaper and more efficient to use Executioner for spam. I admit, I animation cancel with light/heavy attacks weaved in. I swap to bow to apply Acid Spray/Venom Arrow DOT's which I maintain. Stacked with Hundings Rage/Ravager/Surge/Momentum My Weapon damage rests at 304 and ticks upwards to around 312 with momentum. After 1.5 I will sit at 312. with 58% Crit.

ExiledKhallisi

Resueht wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

It's great for single target damage...if there is only a single target agro'd on you. The hardest problem I have with 2H is more than 3 mobs. Not really sure how to handle that many more with just weapon skills. But I guess that's what my sorc skills are for. Use magic for stuns or damage mitigation.

This is why I'm a little uncertain about the Rally morph. It uses stamina, right? I have been using crit surge for my heals since my crit chance is pretty high and crit rush is guaranteed heal. I like that cause I don't use my magic pool for anything else (except constant Bound Armaments). Now I have Rally (a better utility for me) pulling from stamina. Not sure if I will be able to sustain stamina...

Tested Rally on PTS:

-Ticks for 77 life per tick. more than mutagen lol
-Can heal myself at any time by reapplying it for 250ish non crit 600-800 crit (seems to base off wep crit which is awesome)
-costs stamina, not very much if you are redguard/imperial stamina is not hard to sustain.
-If you let Rally effect end you get a LARGE heal for around 600-700 non crit.
-Stacked with crit surg the HPS on yourself is amazing.
-Also stacks with Mutigen/rapid Regen if you have resto staff on switch.

ExiledKhallisi

Erock25 wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

You do 1400 sustained DPS in PVE as a 2h user and you don't use wrecking blow?

Not 1.4k but on just a non boss mob its hard to get to that point as damage goes up with momentum (this all changes with 1.5 with the flat 20%) Still a vr5 Giant from Cyrodil north of bleakers.

guybrushtb16_ESO

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

You do 1400 sustained DPS in PVE as a 2h user and you don't use wrecking blow?

Not 1.4k but on just a non boss mob its hard to get to that point as damage goes up with momentum (this all changes with 1.5 with the flat 20%) Still a vr5 Giant from Cyrodil north of bleakers.

Interesting, I never considered using the execute as a main dps ability. Should be interesting for pvp as well, one of my biggest gripes with wrecking blow/heavy attack was that you can't block while doing it.

Resueht wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

IMO wrecking blow is not a viable skill to have on your bar. Takes to long to use.

It's great for single target damage...if there is only a single target agro'd on you. The hardest problem I have with 2H is more than 3 mobs. Not really sure how to handle that many more with just weapon skills. But I guess that's what my sorc skills are for. Use magic for stuns or damage mitigation.

This is why I'm a little uncertain about the Rally morph. It uses stamina, right? I have been using crit surge for my heals since my crit chance is pretty high and crit rush is guaranteed heal. I like that cause I don't use my magic pool for anything else (except constant Bound Armaments). Now I have Rally (a better utility for me) pulling from stamina. Not sure if I will be able to sustain stamina...

Have you ever tried the brawler morph? It's usually shunned because everybody jumps at the big ult generator, but while testing on pts I found that the damage shield really scales ridiculously high with bigger groups, you are essentially casting nonstop hardened wards while attacking.