Werewolf 1.5, Too much loss for the gain, Review from a Live server Werewolf player.

Hypertionb14_ESO

1.5 is a failure for Werewolfs

The bad-

on live, light attack spam will hold 800dps

on PTS it will drop below 600dps.. getting only 530 or so.

no amount of new abilities can make up for the DPS loss caused by the change to the berserker morph, which destroys the most defining aspect of WW dps, the high attack speed in favor of a buff to the bleed which doesn't even work on live let alone PTS.

the new aoe "infectious claws" has a horrible animation and cool down timing and can be over quoed to the point you will be wasting stam swiping already dead enemies untill you block to clear the que. the dot is not worth the slow and horribly clunky animation


the good-

the new self heal and the CC break are good enough... the heal can be fired almost instantly in combat in between light attacks, letting you heal without really stopping attacks. the ranged "howl" attack is also really fast and can be spliced into light attacks (doesnt help wtih DPS at all tho)

overall-

i was really waiting for the buffs to WW. but the nerfs that have come with 1.5 have utterly ruined how WW plays and how it is useful in combat. I would rather them completely scrap all changes and leave the DPS than ruin what little good werewolf currently has.

Why it doesnt work-

the bleed bonus is very high, the bleed does 200 on crits now, but in order to get any bleed damage you have to COMPLETELY STOP ATTACKING WITH LIGHT ATTACKS.. this is not a option at all. if they actually made it so the bleed worked through the light attack spam it will still be a nerf since ALOT of mobs cant be damaged by bleeds.

Sad Video -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTvtcVCjFqc

lets do some math,

10k @ 1.2k dps = 8 second fight apx

10k @ 900dps avg = 11 second fight apx

7k @ 900dps avg = 7 second fight apx

7k @ 650dps avg = 10 second fight apx.

as you can see im taking almost as long to kill a mob with 30% less health, indicating a 30% average differance in how much damage is done during the actual fight.

if i had the 1.4 dps on a 1.5 mob..

7k @ 1.2k dps avg = 5 second fight apx

longer fights give greater chance for dps drops and create a longer baseline when determining sustain.

some additonal math finds the average damage per hit between crit and non crit at 330.47 on fight 2, the DPS is 862, and compaire the hits per second result to fight 4 calculated in the same way, where the average damage per hit is 340

Fight 2 = 2.6 hits per second.

Fight 4 = 1.8 hits per second.

around 44% faster hit rate on the 1.4 version.

i am not going to do the haste buffed versions to highlight the baseline difference in attack speed between the 1.4 and 1.5 versions of werewolf berserker.

ExiledKhallisi

If this is true ZOS..... what are you thinking? DO they even play their own game?

DDuke

Solution:

• Keep attack speed and bleed.
• Make light attacks refresh the bleed duration, without preventing it from ticking.
• Fix clunky animations.

Hypertionb14_ESO

I think they should remove the bleed from light attacks and put it on the heavy attacks instead, that would solve the major issue currently caused by having the the bleed getting refreshed too fast for it to have any effect.

DDuke wrote: »

Solution:

• Keep attack speed and bleed.
• Make light attacks refresh the bleed duration, without preventing it from ticking.
• Fix clunky animations.

and this.

all of this.

rophez_ESO

I wonder if ZOS will respond to feedback on this patch cycle. Would be nice to know if something is WAI or not.

kaorunandrak

Werewolf Berserker also isn't increasing stamina upon transformation so that is a problem, however while DPS has gone down for werewolves based off of light heavy attacks I feel this is also based off your weapon choice pre-transformation. My character is a two handed user with flame enchantments, couple it with the poison attack, base weapon damage, increased attack speed(werewolves attack faster then I can swing my two hand around I am aware the attack speed buff was removed), Bleed damage, and weapon damage increase even without the stamina bonus I am destroying things extremely fast.

Hypertionb14_ESO

i have both 2 handed and dual wield, on both types the damage has gone down.

the character is the exact same on both PTS and Live.. thanks to the transfer they did.

again, the base daamage on PTS is slightly higher, but the attack speed is less than 1/3 of what it is on live, resulting overall in less damage no matter what the equipment.

the same equipment on both live and PTS, on all weapon types (even tried bow)

end result is universally worse on the PTS currently.

kaorunandrak

Then I don't what the difference we are experiencing is then cause I am flat out murdering mobs that include shield and healers in their groups. I have been using pounce-poison-howl(fear)-heavy-light-light (most are dead at this point) and I just spent over an hour in werewolf form farming the same area. Been using the knock down howl to interrupt shield charges and mage heals. My attack speed is not up to par with live but so far I have had little issue staying alive, maintaining werewolf form, or killing mobs.

Btw I am honestly not trying to be antagonistic here just not understanding the difference in our experience for one or how the new tool in the werewolf line aren't making up for the slower attack speed in terms of utility and burst damage.

Hypertionb14_ESO

the differance is the Berserker Morph changes.

on Live, the attack speed allows 3 hits per second easily, on PTS its slightly below

The bleed effect on berserker doesnt take effect when you are actively attacking a target, the effect doesnt tick untill a second after it has been applied and the light attacks re-apply too fast for that time to pass.

as a result the overall damage is less.

On live i have maanged to get 1.5k DPS on the storm antronach fight by casting Haste and Evil Hunter before entering WW state, with just WW i can hold 1k DPS on the mammoths using Light and Heavys. just light attacks alone is 800+ DPS

On pts the best i managed on a similar health mob was 600dps with just light attacks.. even with the new DOT and normal heavy+light attacks its much lower (200+ dps differance)

the weapon damage is the same on both servers, the Stam on the PTS is higher thanks to the addtional attribute points and the better food. yet still with the same weapons and set bonuses the damage is sigificantly lower on PTS

kaorunandrak

I understand the berserker morph changes but I don't think that is our difference in experiences. Based off the things you have said I am going to assume we are playing the same character almost, Nightblade 50/50/50 all passives, Two handed 50 all passives, werewolf 10 with all passives and max berserker morph.

I think it is the way we are playing, I am using light and heavy attacks as I need to and focusing on the skill usage. You are trying to focus on just the light and heavy attacks. What I am seeing on PTS is enemies are dropping fast cause I am bursting them down in 2-4 hits depending on if they got a heal off or were healed or blocked an attack. Where on live I am wailing on them repeatedly taking them down "fast" because of attack speed but I am not two shotting them or anything of that nature. The changes they made to the werewolf to me fit the strength of the ability since it is a short duration, unless you have things to feed on, thus they "burstified" it. Giving it hard hitting attacks with minor DPS additives disease/bleed.

That said I was not aware the bleed was broke so that is a great find, also as I said earlier the stamina buff berserker is supposed to grant is not happening I have 1119 stamina prior to change and 1119 during the change even during combat. And I have also experienced some animation stuttering and effects applying prior to the attack animation going off such as the disease effect or the knock down on the new skills. I have also been seeing my attack hitting multiple targets in front and behind me not sure if that is intended.

Hypertionb14_ESO

kaorunandrak wrote: »

I understand the berserker morph changes but I don't think that is our difference in experiences. Based off the things you have said I am going to assume we are playing the same character almost, Nightblade 50/50/50 all passives, Two handed 50 all passives, werewolf 10 with all passives and max berserker morph.

I think it is the way we are playing, I am using light and heavy attacks as I need to and focusing on the skill usage. You are trying to focus on just the light and heavy attacks. What I am seeing on PTS is enemies are dropping fast cause I am bursting them down in 2-4 hits depending on if they got a heal off or were healed or blocked an attack. Where on live I am wailing on them repeatedly taking them down "fast" because of attack speed but I am not two shotting them or anything of that nature. The changes they made to the werewolf to me fit the strength of the ability since it is a short duration, unless you have things to feed on, thus they "burstified" it. Giving it hard hitting attacks with minor DPS additives disease/bleed.

That said I was not aware the bleed was broke so that is a great find, also as I said earlier the stamina buff berserker is supposed to grant is not happening I have 1119 stamina prior to change and 1119 during the change even during combat. And I have also experienced some animation stuttering and effects applying prior to the attack animation going off such as the disease effect or the knock down on the new skills. I have also been seeing my attack hitting multiple targets in front and behind me not sure if that is intended.

PTS mobs have less HP than they do on live.

and yes, when i fight the AA bosses i weave heavy attacks so your doing nothing i am not as well.

the testing i have been doing shows that NO MATTER HOW SKILLS ARE COMBINED THE RESULT IS LOWER OVERALL

when you test DPS you have to test against the same mob, differant mobs will always show differant results and any mob below 5k hp will not give a realistic result beyond inital Burst. fights that only lasts for a few seconds or "2-4" hits doesnt give any information. im sorry but its sounding to me like you are just killing trash mobs, and not actually testing your DPS in prolonged fights.

WraithAzraiel

Did the out of combat 4 legged sprint work for you? Didn't work for me when I tried last night.

ExiledKhallisi

Cmon ZOS can you at least tell us this was intended or not? If it is.... why? Why go through the trouble of pretending to buff the werewolf when you actually nerf them?

Hypertionb14_ESO

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Did the out of combat 4 legged sprint work for you? Didn't work for me when I tried last night.

yes, that did work, you have to actually "put your weapons away" sometimes. which amounts to a brief weird twitchy pose when you push the button before you start running on all fours...

kind of silly but it works i guess.

animation isnt bad either.

kaorunandrak

What prolonged fight are you foreseeing or even partaking in as a werewolf? For general world mobs and solo dungeons PTS werewolf is superior to it's live counterpart from my own testing things die in far less hits and I'm fighting trash mobs and solo dungeon bosses most of the bosses have 5k or more hp. For fighting world bosses and group dungeons your right the DPS is less but even in that case the duration of werewolf form it self limits how effective it's DPS is going to be unless you luck out and there happens to be a ready supply of bodies for you to eat. DPA/Burst, utility, and survivability wise I think they knocked it out of the park and it's worth the switch from attack speed to bleed but only of the bleed is fixed and working properly.

Again I am not trying to be antagonistic we are coming from different play styles/experiences and obviously different viewpoints/expectations on werewolf form I am just trying to understand your thought process on what you feel werewolf form should be capable of and currently on pts/live isn't or shouldn't.

As far as the 4 legged run yes it works fine for me but you have to "sheathe" your claws which you don't do automatically.

Hypertionb14_ESO

kaorunandrak wrote: »

What prolonged fight are you foreseeing or even partaking in as a werewolf? For general world mobs and solo dungeons PTS werewolf is superior to it's live counterpart from my own testing things die in far less hits and I'm fighting trash mobs and solo dungeon bosses most of the bosses have 5k or more hp. For fighting world bosses and group dungeons your right the DPS is less but even in that case the duration of werewolf form it self limits how effective it's DPS is going to be unless you luck out and there happens to be a ready supply of bodies for you to eat. DPA/Burst, utility, and survivability wise I think they knocked it out of the park and it's worth the switch from attack speed to bleed but only of the bleed is fixed and working properly.

Again I am not trying to be antagonistic we are coming from different play styles/experiences and obviously different viewpoints/expectations on werewolf form I am just trying to understand your thought process on what you feel werewolf form should be capable of and currently on pts/live isn't or shouldn't.

As far as the 4 legged run yes it works fine for me but you have to "sheathe" your claws which you don't do automatically.

Trials bosses, Veteran Group Dungoens, Dragon Star Arena.

most bosses for groups have well over 100k hp, sustained DPS is a absolute MUST.

i expect to be able to maintain as much DPS in WW form as i can outside of it. at least.

right now on PTS my stam builds are easily holding 1k DPS. that should be the baseline of WW DPS in my eyes and with heavy attacks in the light attacks it is that high on live.

kaorunandrak

True sustained DPS and BURST are musts in those situations. However there are far better Ultimate's to fit those situations and in most cases a lot of players do not want "Monster races" to come on them due to the poison/fire disadvantage. Hell one second in the poison cloud on dragonstar is usually enough to one shot a werewolf player in or out of form.

I would suggest seeing if we can't get this "bleed" to work right so it is actually being effective and seeing if that doesn't shore up the DPS aspect a bit.

Also have you been noticing anything wrong with the stamina buff of WW mode? I transformed probably 50 times now and I am not seeing any increase in stamina in any situation was that functionality removed? If so that could be an additive to the DPS/DPA of werewolf mode. Further do we have any information on any morphs to the new ww abilities? Perhaps they will have a significant impact on the DPS as well we should see if we can't get the devs to help us focus test werewolf form a bit better with max skills if they don't have a template already set out for that.

Hypertionb14_ESO

kaorunandrak wrote: »

True sustained DPS and BURST are musts in those situations. However there are far better Ultimate's to fit those situations and in most cases a lot of players do not want "Monster races" to come on them due to the poison/fire disadvantage. Hell one second in the poison cloud on dragonstar is usually enough to one shot a werewolf player in or out of form.

I would suggest seeing if we can't get this "bleed" to work right so it is actually being effective and seeing if that doesn't shore up the DPS aspect a bit.

Also have you been noticing anything wrong with the stamina buff of WW mode? I transformed probably 50 times now and I am not seeing any increase in stamina in any situation was that functionality removed? If so that could be an additive to the DPS/DPA of werewolf mode. Further do we have any information on any morphs to the new ww abilities? Perhaps they will have a significant impact on the DPS as well we should see if we can't get the devs to help us focus test werewolf form a bit better with max skills if they don't have a template already set out for that.

my math shows that if the bleed was working, it would bring dps up by around 200.

the stamina buff of WW mode was removed, it was a passive that has been changed from a stamina boost while in WW form to a buff to how much stam is restored from full heavy attacks.

i dont really expect to be able to go WW in group situations that often, but if i can i would like it to be a bonus to my damage, not a reduction.

kaorunandrak

I was actually talking about the stamina buff attached to the actual werewolf transformation

tool tip info
Transform into a Werewolf causing nearby enemies to run in fear
- Increases Stamina
- Increases Armor
- Increase Run Speed
- Attack damage is derived from Max Stamina

I know the passive on live increases how much stamina you receive in werewolf form, but even then on live my stamina is 1140 and increase's with out the passive slotted when I shift.

ExiledKhallisi

kaorunandrak wrote: »

What prolonged fight are you foreseeing or even partaking in as a werewolf? For general world mobs and solo dungeons PTS werewolf is superior to it's live counterpart from my own testing things die in far less hits and I'm fighting trash mobs and solo dungeon bosses most of the bosses have 5k or more hp. For fighting world bosses and group dungeons your right the DPS is less but even in that case the duration of werewolf form it self limits how effective it's DPS is going to be unless you luck out and there happens to be a ready supply of bodies for you to eat. DPA/Burst, utility, and survivability wise I think they knocked it out of the park and it's worth the switch from attack speed to bleed but only of the bleed is fixed and working properly.

Again I am not trying to be antagonistic we are coming from different play styles/experiences and obviously different viewpoints/expectations on werewolf form I am just trying to understand your thought process on what you feel werewolf form should be capable of and currently on pts/live isn't or shouldn't.

As far as the 4 legged run yes it works fine for me but you have to "sheathe" your claws which you don't do automatically.

The only true issues are, imo...

The removal of haste from light attacks was pointless.
The fact that the light attack dot doesnt tick for 1 second after attack, which means every time you attack it keeps reapplying it and it never attacks unless you stop attacking. Just dumb...

ExiledKhallisi

Why dont ANY of the passives benefit human form like most of the vampire passives work all the time?

I mean cmon ZOS...

kaorunandrak

They increased our stamina recovery for having werewolf skill line by 15% and we still have the ultimate passive that increase how much ultimate we gain while outside of werewolf form.

Hypertionb14_ESO

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

What prolonged fight are you foreseeing or even partaking in as a werewolf? For general world mobs and solo dungeons PTS werewolf is superior to it's live counterpart from my own testing things die in far less hits and I'm fighting trash mobs and solo dungeon bosses most of the bosses have 5k or more hp. For fighting world bosses and group dungeons your right the DPS is less but even in that case the duration of werewolf form it self limits how effective it's DPS is going to be unless you luck out and there happens to be a ready supply of bodies for you to eat. DPA/Burst, utility, and survivability wise I think they knocked it out of the park and it's worth the switch from attack speed to bleed but only of the bleed is fixed and working properly.

Again I am not trying to be antagonistic we are coming from different play styles/experiences and obviously different viewpoints/expectations on werewolf form I am just trying to understand your thought process on what you feel werewolf form should be capable of and currently on pts/live isn't or shouldn't.

As far as the 4 legged run yes it works fine for me but you have to "sheathe" your claws which you don't do automatically.

The only true issues are, imo...

The removal of haste from light attacks was pointless.
The fact that the light attack dot doesnt tick for 1 second after attack, which means every time you attack it keeps reapplying it and it never attacks unless you stop attacking. Just dumb...

exactly... the removed the good effect in favor of boosting something that doesnt have any effect..

The Bleed DOT hits for 290* each 2 seconds. even it it was present it would not be as good a DPS boost as the origonal haste.

kaorunandrak

So just tested this on live werewolf berserker form NO PASSIVES went from 1140 stamina to 1170 stamina Not a massive increase mind you but it is something on PTS 1119 stamina in or out of werewolf form. So they not only removed the stamina Passive Pursuit but they also removed the innate stamina bonus of werewolf form

Voodoo

i know nothing about WW but that video you posted does not show really any difference. before patch you hit mob faster but after patch there is a little bit slower melee altho it seems you do more dmg with each swing ...all and all the mob dies almost in the same time...give or take a second or two (i did not count)

...summary video really doesn't show any real difference. ...you own the mob in about 13 seconds before and after patch.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Voodoo wrote: »

i know nothing about WW but that video you posted does not show really any difference. before patch you hit mob faster but after patch there is a little bit slower melee altho it seems you do more dmg with each swing ...all and all the mob dies almost in the same time...give or take a second or two (i did not count)

...summary video really doesn't show any real difference. ...you own the mob in about 13 seconds before and after patch.

you are ignoring 2 key points then.

before patch the mobs have 10k (10800 or so) after they only have 7k, meaning its taking as long to kill mobs with 7k as it did 10k previously.

the 2 DPS meters tell the story, before patch 900-1.2k is common, after 600-1k is the common.

WW alone should have nothing to do with understanding those differences.. its basic understanding of DPS

timidobserver

It's pretty hilarious that WW seems to have been nerfed? Though I'll hold out until someone seriously theorycrafts around with it and figures out if any improvements can be found.

Hypertionb14_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

It's pretty hilarious that WW seems to have been nerfed? Though I'll hold out until someone seriously theorycrafts around with it and figures out if any improvements can be found.

my favorite attempt so far was opening fights with infectous clas and a light attack then weaving the new roar and heavy attacks (partial) which manages 700 or so for a little while on low hp mobs. this lets the light attack bleed work.

600 heavy attack(variable but usually just at or below that
550 howls

been getting 300+ on the light attack bleed, and 140+ on the ability dot.

its intresting to do but ultimately not as effective as live basic attacks.. even bash didnt really add much.

OtarTheMad

I don't seem to have much issue with the WW changes. I can bring down enemies pretty quick using the skills they gave us. I think this is a step in a good direction, but that's just my opinion and most likely will get "lol'd" or crapped on but I like the changes.

zbtiqua

It's probably because they make poor zos Eric Wroebel do almost all of the itemization AND skills by himself... Give this man whatever resources and help he needs to fix the game.. please

Lady_Ase

Werewolf in PTS (lower photo) is not as pretty as in NA (upper photo). Any chance to make is prettier, please?