Remove SneakDMG from Bows

kijima

Stop whinging about it you dress wearing panzies, put some heavy armour on with impen and laugh at archers while you are PvP'ing.

Dk's with reflective will also be laughing as they currently are.

Soris

@kijima,
So you are telling me, wear heavy armor to stay alive from initial burst of bow while having zero cost reduction and zero resource gain other than funny constitution passive, and still unable to mitigate 1/4 of the burst, hm? Oh not to mention those armor reduction skills, traits, enchants and passives yet.

Zed

If your playstyle and equipment makes you weak to sneak attack from bows, then you can change that to make yourself less weak to it.

Soris

I'm not whinning but, tell me professor, have you ever drop that bow and played a different build like heavy tank or anything near it?

kijima

Zed wrote: »

If your playstyle and equipment makes you weak to sneak attack from bows, then you can change that to make yourself less weak to it.

What ^ he said.

Mondo

c0rp wrote: »

Mondo wrote: »

Dont know where everybody got this huge numbers from. Snipe dont hit for 2k

Snipe + Hunter+ heavy + poison will be 2500+ but not snipe = 2k nope nope nope

And camo hunter doesnt even work with bows anymore according to the patch notes lol.

Cant find it in the Patch notes

kijima

The way the patch notes read camo hunter would only work with dual wielders, and that cant be right.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Samadhi wrote: »

Bow already receives a lower Sneak Attack modifier than Two-Handed (Melee weapon) does.

Wrecking Blow:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 757 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 3555 damage to target.

Snipe:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 873 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 1919 damage to target.

So with higher base damage, Snipe still deals lower Sneak Attack damage than a comparable Melee attack.

Personally, would not object to Snipe having the Sneak Attack bonus removed. See no reason for such a change though. It already receives a lower bonus than Melee receives. Most magic does not receive Sneak Attack bonuses because it does not aim for vital points, which was also the case in previous Elder Scrolls games.
Would object to Bow having the Sneak Attack bonus removed from all other attacks though. Bows have been my Sneak Attack weapons on my assassins since Oblivion, and it makes sense as a bonus for the weapon type.

To me, the greater issue is that every single skill in the Dual Wield line is trash as a Sneak Attack.

Thats a good pve reference, but in pvp the sneak multipliers on the two skills are the same. It would be quite overpowered to be able to sneak crit someone for 3k damage on the norm with uppercut yes? Its nerfed in PvP and always has been.

Snipe will do more damage to the same target than uppercut with those listed damage numbers. There is no incentive to sneaking with a melee weapon against another player when snipe can do it for more damage from a safe distance with almost no chance of getting caught.

suycyco

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Thats a good pve reference, but in pvp the sneak multipliers on the two skills are the same. It would be quite overpowered to be able to sneak crit someone for 3k damage on the norm with uppercut yes? Its nerfed in PvP and always has been.

Snipe will do more damage to the same target than uppercut with those listed damage numbers. There is no incentive to sneaking with a melee weapon against another player when snipe can do it for more damage from a safe distance with almost no chance of getting caught.

I didn't use it a lot since it's quite difficult to place it but I've done some 2.3K opening with wrecking blow, since my highest snipe was at 1.7K so I don't agree with you in your statement that an opening snipe is more powerfull.
That being said an opening snipe is way easier to do than an uppercut opening, I can do it only because I am a NB and can approach my target with the shadow cloak.

Cysapper

I had to laugh reading this! Ok, you want the sneak attack removed from bows.
I don't think so! All bow damage is physical damage, mitigated by armor rating.
So, everyone rolls in light armor everywhere and gets hit hard then cries about it on the forums. QQ! Guess what don't want to be hit hard. Then STOP WEARING LIGHT ARMOR!!!!

DDuke

Or get more health... having 2,2k health and then complaining about getting one-shot is ridiculous

3,2k Health, medium armour, and I've never been one-shot in PvP. Never.

That said, the bow burst dmg is actually getting nerfed in 1.5: faster animation & travel time on snipe, so no time to queue up heavy attack+venom arrow to land at the same time anymore. Not to mention the -5% dmg...

Sustained dmg is getting better though, so that is ok I guess... (tho I'm not a big fan of turning snipe into a glorified Crystal Shards)


Case solved, time to move on, /thread

Takuto

Disclaimer: My main is a Bow/Resto Sorc.

Cysapper wrote: »

I had to laugh reading this! Ok, you want the sneak attack removed from bows.
I don't think so! All bow damage is physical damage, mitigated by armor rating.
So, everyone rolls in light armor everywhere and gets hit hard then cries about it on the forums. QQ! Guess what don't want to be hit hard. Then STOP WEARING LIGHT ARMOR!!!!

You could run a full suit of heavy with armor with 3 +630 armor enchants, and it'd make no difference in the end result. I've been hit for 2000+ running ~2600 armor, and a group member wearing 5 heavy was hit for a 2000 shot followed up by 1200 shot just last night. In my experience the key to surviving a snipe glass canon's opening shots is to stack damage shields. Sadly they are making one of the few universal damage shields only affect spell damage.

DDuke wrote: »

That said, the bow burst dmg is actually getting nerfed in 1.5: faster animation & travel time on snipe, so no time to queue up heavy attack+venom arrow to land at the same time anymore. Not to mention the -5% dmg...

They changed the stats you get for VR, so you can now dump health/magika and gain stamina. My nightblade on PTS has ~2950 stamina. If I had more crafting mats I'm sure I could push both my weapon power and stamina higher. I suspect that given this the 5% decease in damage when combined with the increase in stats is a wash.

The dramatic increase in attack speed with snipe concerns me, the initial shot will hit around the same as it does in 1.4, the difference is the second shot will come much faster. I really don't understand why ZOS felt this ability needed such a huge DPS increase. Bow is already a very popular weapon in PVP, and while the bow line has 3 completely useless abilities, snipe wasn't one of them.

I don't expect ZOS to adjust this in any meaningful way, and I think the unintended consequences of this change will have very negative affects on PVP. I say this based on the opinion that longer fights tend to be more entertaining than those measured in tenths of a second.

DDuke

Takuto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

That said, the bow burst dmg is actually getting nerfed in 1.5: faster animation & travel time on snipe, so no time to queue up heavy attack+venom arrow to land at the same time anymore. Not to mention the -5% dmg...

They changed the stats you get for VR, so you can now dump health/magika and gain stamina. My nightblade on PTS has ~2950 stamina. If I had more crafting mats I'm sure I could push both my weapon power and stamina higher. I suspect that given this the 5% decease in damage when combined with the increase in stats is a wash.

And with the changed stats, you can dump more points into health, instead of magicka/stamina. What is the problem here?

Takuto wrote: »

The dramatic increase in attack speed with snipe concerns me, the initial shot will hit around the same as it does in 1.4, the difference is the second shot will come much faster. I really don't understand why ZOS felt this ability needed such a huge DPS increase. Bow is already a very popular weapon in PVP, and while the bow line has 3 completely useless abilities, snipe wasn't one of them.

No, you clearly don't understand.
Bow has always been about burst damage until now, the sequence being: Lethal Arrow or Focused Aim->long travel time, during which you charge heavy attack+venom arrow->all land at the same time dealing 2,5k-3k~ damage.

After that, if the target wasn't dead and you kept using bow, the best route for DPS would be Venom Arrow spam, clipped with Light Attack.
Sadly, the DPS of that method is abysmal and doesn't kill anyone who knows how to heal or worse, dmg shield.

After patch, this is going to be the sequence:
Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim->short travel time, during which you can get off a light attack and maybe a venom arrow->2,2k-2,6k~ damage
OR
Lethal Arrow->short travel time, during which you cast Lethal Arrow again->arrow travels again->target has broken CC & is blocking/healed before second Lethal Arrow lands.

What this does change however, is how bow measures against other specs beyond that sneak attack. Now you'll have an option to use Lethal Arrow (or Focused Aim) outside the opening sequence for good damage, making bows less a "kill quick or run away" spec, while still not being op (remember that you can interrupt those lethal arrows).

From PvE perspective, this should actually make bows do equal, or even better DPS than magicka builds in trials (with less group synergies though).
I'm actually thinking about using the less used bow skills in PvE, since they deal quite nice damage (atleast Scorched Earth)

Pre-patch, bow DPS was around 800-1k, compared to 1,3k Magicka DPS

Takuto wrote: »

I don't expect ZOS to adjust this in any meaningful way, and I think the unintended consequences of this change will have very negative affects on PVP. I say this based on the opinion that longer fights tend to be more entertaining than those measured in tenths of a second.

I agree longer fights tend to be more entertaining (atleast when fighting equal level+geared opponents).

There are multiple ways of making that happen; one way you as a player can achieve that, is getting more health & armour. I have never been one shot in this game with 3,2k health.

How ZOS could make the fights last longer? Simple, add more health to everyone as a bonus when you enter Cyrodiil (but some changes to Blazing Shield/Green Dragon Blood would be necessary since they scale off max health).

Warraxx

Takuto wrote: »

How ZOS could make the fights last longer? Simple, add more health to everyone as a bonus when you enter Cyrodiil...

LOL they did awhile back. Everyone gets 500 more health...

JLB

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him

Agreed, as I just posted in another similar discussion, bow don't need nerfs and this is coming from someone who never used bow but got ganked many times.
If they can down me before I can react, they deserved the AP.
If you react, there's nothing left for them except going stealth and run. I don't see much problem with it, specially having in mind the very few times I was killed by gankers.
In fact, I've died more times from Sorcerer gankers than bow gankers.

Whenever I'm on a big battle, it's easy to spot bow users and it's very easy to kill them as easy as they can kill you if you are not aware. Don't really see a problem with it.

michaelb14a_ESO2

Yusuf wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

People who took the easy win playstyle of OP skirts and sticks are going to have a tough go of it. They never learned to properly theorycraft or how to play, they took the easy FOTM builds and now cry when they can't run around in a robe tanking and stand in the open . Oh god the cries over the harness magicka change is enough to make this devoted stamina build NB grin as justice and balance is restored.

"Theorycrafting" is coming up with the most efficient build am i right? So that would mean the "FOTM"-Builds were actually the best theorycrafters in the game and those who stood true to stamina where the worst.

I'm not bickering i just wanted to point out that you may have too much of a personal vendetta going on here xD

No it doesn't mean that.

"Theorycrafting is the mathematical analysis of game mechanics to discover the best strategies and tactics to maximize player effectiveness. It uses tools such as statistics, ability priority lists, and simulations to analyze strategies."

FOTM "Flavor of the month" builds specifically focus on utilizing the the most recent game imbalances/unpatched OP abilities or exploits to maximize effectiveness.

While yes, FOTM builds are sometimes the RESULT of theorycrafting, those that blindly implement the strategy/build are certainly not theorycrafters themselves. FOTM attempts to take a theorycrafters build and cookiecut it for newbs. No personal vendetta, it just is what it is.

TL/DR: No, FOTM build users are just lemmings and didn't theorycraft anything. Nor do they know how to.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

suycyco wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Thats a good pve reference, but in pvp the sneak multipliers on the two skills are the same. It would be quite overpowered to be able to sneak crit someone for 3k damage on the norm with uppercut yes? Its nerfed in PvP and always has been.

Snipe will do more damage to the same target than uppercut with those listed damage numbers. There is no incentive to sneaking with a melee weapon against another player when snipe can do it for more damage from a safe distance with almost no chance of getting caught.

I didn't use it a lot since it's quite difficult to place it but I've done some 2.3K opening with wrecking blow, since my highest snipe was at 1.7K so I don't agree with you in your statement that an opening snipe is more powerfull.
That being said an opening snipe is way easier to do than an uppercut opening, I can do it only because I am a NB and can approach my target with the shadow cloak.

I the numbers I posted were same gear, same weapon quality, same trait on weapon, no extra buffs. I think you may have left something you did out. Never have I gotten uppercut on a player to break 1.3k, and this is on a scrub new player that is level 12 or something. it did 1.3k to that lowbie, with momentum active, and he was in light armor.

So, maybe you left something out, because the numbers seem unrealistic without something added to them.

Durham

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The idea is that when you attack someone who isn't expecting it you have advantage that you can more easily hit him in vulnerable places. That is why in games it's treated as a damage bonus and ESO is not the first to do this, it's actually pretty standard amongst RPGs. I see no problem with it and I have never been one-shotted, even on my v3 sorcerer in v1 gear. He doesn't even have impenetrable on his gear. This is just one more instance of people crying because they have to figure out how to play the game tactically. I'm sorry but running around in a robe with a staff is just not going to cut it anymore now that we have people fighting like they would in actual combat. Adjust your tactics and stop whining about nerfing bows.

Its not a wine its logic... why use melee if you can do much more from range while being much safer... Risk should equate to more damage... Range abilities should never out damage in you face abilities... simple balance....

Durham

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Mondo wrote: »

Dont know where everybody got this huge numbers from. Snipe dont hit for 2k

Snipe + Hunter+ heavy + poison will be 2500+ but not snipe = 2k nope nope nope

And camo hunter doesnt even work with bows anymore according to the patch notes lol.

it does

Also for the record...you can hit for 2k with Lethal Arrow..But it pretty much requires Archer Mind gear, max stamina,max weapon damage and a Nightblade to do it..so its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him

I was hit for 2070 in pvp Friday night . I have 2k armor... On the test server its hitting much harder now.. You cant have archers doing this much damage and two handers no where close to this....

We are doing min maxing tests on the server tonight in pvp.. being that bow can min/max very easily in this game and be viable... On mobs last night damage was crazy...killing a boss mamoth before it can get to you..


Currently there are already a ton of bow users in PVP.. Being melee myself i find myself getting hit with multiple archers in almost every fight.. Im finding myself always with out endo because of arrows sapping all my endo... Its gotten really bad since the last patch...Bow needs no buff at all in fact it needs reduction... Insta kills or fights with no ability to fight back 1v1 are bad for pvp...


7

Durham

faernaa wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Bow already receives a lower Sneak Attack modifier than Two-Handed (Melee weapon) does.

Wrecking Blow:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 757 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 3555 damage to target.

Snipe:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 873 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 1919 damage to target.

So with higher base damage, Snipe still deals lower Sneak Attack damage than a comparable Melee attack.

Thankyou for those numbers. Makes it fairly clear.
Safe to say this thread has been answered.

^This is wrong. They share same sneak attack bonus.

Wrecking blow does not hit anything near 3k damage from stealth. It hits around 1.4k - 1.8k max with 220 weapon damage and 2400 stamina. Out of stealth, it hits roughly 700-800.

3k hits were a bug when 1.3 patch went live and after a week later it fixed. Please don't give fake or out of date informations. Test it yourself before you claim something. Test it on actual players not npcs.

It hits 3k only wolves and lions around in cyrodiil, see the difference!


Snipe numbers are true tho.

Also remember wrecking blow is 100 times harder to hit in stealth than bow...

Durham

DDuke wrote: »

Takuto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

That said, the bow burst dmg is actually getting nerfed in 1.5: faster animation & travel time on snipe, so no time to queue up heavy attack+venom arrow to land at the same time anymore. Not to mention the -5% dmg...

They changed the stats you get for VR, so you can now dump health/magika and gain stamina. My nightblade on PTS has ~2950 stamina. If I had more crafting mats I'm sure I could push both my weapon power and stamina higher. I suspect that given this the 5% decease in damage when combined with the increase in stats is a wash.

And with the changed stats, you can dump more points into health, instead of magicka/stamina. What is the problem here?

Takuto wrote: »

The dramatic increase in attack speed with snipe concerns me, the initial shot will hit around the same as it does in 1.4, the difference is the second shot will come much faster. I really don't understand why ZOS felt this ability needed such a huge DPS increase. Bow is already a very popular weapon in PVP, and while the bow line has 3 completely useless abilities, snipe wasn't one of them.

No, you clearly don't understand.
Bow has always been about burst damage until now, the sequence being: Lethal Arrow or Focused Aim->long travel time, during which you charge heavy attack+venom arrow->all land at the same time dealing 2,5k-3k~ damage.

After that, if the target wasn't dead and you kept using bow, the best route for DPS would be Venom Arrow spam, clipped with Light Attack.
Sadly, the DPS of that method is abysmal and doesn't kill anyone who knows how to heal or worse, dmg shield.

After patch, this is going to be the sequence:
Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim->short travel time, during which you can get off a light attack and maybe a venom arrow->2,2k-2,6k~ damage
OR
Lethal Arrow->short travel time, during which you cast Lethal Arrow again->arrow travels again->target has broken CC & is blocking/healed before second Lethal Arrow lands.

What this does change however, is how bow measures against other specs beyond that sneak attack. Now you'll have an option to use Lethal Arrow (or Focused Aim) outside the opening sequence for good damage, making bows less a "kill quick or run away" spec, while still not being op (remember that you can interrupt those lethal arrows).

From PvE perspective, this should actually make bows do equal, or even better DPS than magicka builds in trials (with less group synergies though).
I'm actually thinking about using the less used bow skills in PvE, since they deal quite nice damage (atleast Scorched Earth)

Pre-patch, bow DPS was around 800-1k, compared to 1,3k Magicka DPS

Takuto wrote: »

I don't expect ZOS to adjust this in any meaningful way, and I think the unintended consequences of this change will have very negative affects on PVP. I say this based on the opinion that longer fights tend to be more entertaining than those measured in tenths of a second.

I agree longer fights tend to be more entertaining (atleast when fighting equal level+geared opponents).

There are multiple ways of making that happen; one way you as a player can achieve that, is getting more health & armour. I have never been one shot in this game with 3,2k health.

How ZOS could make the fights last longer? Simple, add more health to everyone as a bonus when you enter Cyrodiil (but some changes to Blazing Shield/Green Dragon Blood would be necessary since they scale off max health).

The biggest problem is being able to get huge bursts of damage without the same risks that melee have....

DDuke

Durham wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Takuto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

That said, the bow burst dmg is actually getting nerfed in 1.5: faster animation & travel time on snipe, so no time to queue up heavy attack+venom arrow to land at the same time anymore. Not to mention the -5% dmg...

They changed the stats you get for VR, so you can now dump health/magika and gain stamina. My nightblade on PTS has ~2950 stamina. If I had more crafting mats I'm sure I could push both my weapon power and stamina higher. I suspect that given this the 5% decease in damage when combined with the increase in stats is a wash.

And with the changed stats, you can dump more points into health, instead of magicka/stamina. What is the problem here?

Takuto wrote: »

The dramatic increase in attack speed with snipe concerns me, the initial shot will hit around the same as it does in 1.4, the difference is the second shot will come much faster. I really don't understand why ZOS felt this ability needed such a huge DPS increase. Bow is already a very popular weapon in PVP, and while the bow line has 3 completely useless abilities, snipe wasn't one of them.

No, you clearly don't understand.
Bow has always been about burst damage until now, the sequence being: Lethal Arrow or Focused Aim->long travel time, during which you charge heavy attack+venom arrow->all land at the same time dealing 2,5k-3k~ damage.

After that, if the target wasn't dead and you kept using bow, the best route for DPS would be Venom Arrow spam, clipped with Light Attack.
Sadly, the DPS of that method is abysmal and doesn't kill anyone who knows how to heal or worse, dmg shield.

After patch, this is going to be the sequence:
Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim->short travel time, during which you can get off a light attack and maybe a venom arrow->2,2k-2,6k~ damage
OR
Lethal Arrow->short travel time, during which you cast Lethal Arrow again->arrow travels again->target has broken CC & is blocking/healed before second Lethal Arrow lands.

What this does change however, is how bow measures against other specs beyond that sneak attack. Now you'll have an option to use Lethal Arrow (or Focused Aim) outside the opening sequence for good damage, making bows less a "kill quick or run away" spec, while still not being op (remember that you can interrupt those lethal arrows).

From PvE perspective, this should actually make bows do equal, or even better DPS than magicka builds in trials (with less group synergies though).
I'm actually thinking about using the less used bow skills in PvE, since they deal quite nice damage (atleast Scorched Earth)

Pre-patch, bow DPS was around 800-1k, compared to 1,3k Magicka DPS

Takuto wrote: »

I don't expect ZOS to adjust this in any meaningful way, and I think the unintended consequences of this change will have very negative affects on PVP. I say this based on the opinion that longer fights tend to be more entertaining than those measured in tenths of a second.

I agree longer fights tend to be more entertaining (atleast when fighting equal level+geared opponents).

There are multiple ways of making that happen; one way you as a player can achieve that, is getting more health & armour. I have never been one shot in this game with 3,2k health.

How ZOS could make the fights last longer? Simple, add more health to everyone as a bonus when you enter Cyrodiil (but some changes to Blazing Shield/Green Dragon Blood would be necessary since they scale off max health).

The biggest problem is being able to get huge bursts of damage without the same risks that melee have....

The bow burst damage is going down slightly next patch, and melee builds will actually be capable of dealing more damage (ambush->concealed strike->soul harvest/impale)

...what were we complaining about again?

Thejollygreenone

DDuke wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Takuto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

That said, the bow burst dmg is actually getting nerfed in 1.5: faster animation & travel time on snipe, so no time to queue up heavy attack+venom arrow to land at the same time anymore. Not to mention the -5% dmg...

They changed the stats you get for VR, so you can now dump health/magika and gain stamina. My nightblade on PTS has ~2950 stamina. If I had more crafting mats I'm sure I could push both my weapon power and stamina higher. I suspect that given this the 5% decease in damage when combined with the increase in stats is a wash.

And with the changed stats, you can dump more points into health, instead of magicka/stamina. What is the problem here?

Takuto wrote: »

The dramatic increase in attack speed with snipe concerns me, the initial shot will hit around the same as it does in 1.4, the difference is the second shot will come much faster. I really don't understand why ZOS felt this ability needed such a huge DPS increase. Bow is already a very popular weapon in PVP, and while the bow line has 3 completely useless abilities, snipe wasn't one of them.

No, you clearly don't understand.
Bow has always been about burst damage until now, the sequence being: Lethal Arrow or Focused Aim->long travel time, during which you charge heavy attack+venom arrow->all land at the same time dealing 2,5k-3k~ damage.

After that, if the target wasn't dead and you kept using bow, the best route for DPS would be Venom Arrow spam, clipped with Light Attack.
Sadly, the DPS of that method is abysmal and doesn't kill anyone who knows how to heal or worse, dmg shield.

After patch, this is going to be the sequence:
Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim->short travel time, during which you can get off a light attack and maybe a venom arrow->2,2k-2,6k~ damage
OR
Lethal Arrow->short travel time, during which you cast Lethal Arrow again->arrow travels again->target has broken CC & is blocking/healed before second Lethal Arrow lands.

What this does change however, is how bow measures against other specs beyond that sneak attack. Now you'll have an option to use Lethal Arrow (or Focused Aim) outside the opening sequence for good damage, making bows less a "kill quick or run away" spec, while still not being op (remember that you can interrupt those lethal arrows).

From PvE perspective, this should actually make bows do equal, or even better DPS than magicka builds in trials (with less group synergies though).
I'm actually thinking about using the less used bow skills in PvE, since they deal quite nice damage (atleast Scorched Earth)

Pre-patch, bow DPS was around 800-1k, compared to 1,3k Magicka DPS

Takuto wrote: »

I don't expect ZOS to adjust this in any meaningful way, and I think the unintended consequences of this change will have very negative affects on PVP. I say this based on the opinion that longer fights tend to be more entertaining than those measured in tenths of a second.

I agree longer fights tend to be more entertaining (atleast when fighting equal level+geared opponents).

There are multiple ways of making that happen; one way you as a player can achieve that, is getting more health & armour. I have never been one shot in this game with 3,2k health.

How ZOS could make the fights last longer? Simple, add more health to everyone as a bonus when you enter Cyrodiil (but some changes to Blazing Shield/Green Dragon Blood would be necessary since they scale off max health).

The biggest problem is being able to get huge bursts of damage without the same risks that melee have....

The bow burst damage is going down slightly next patch, and melee builds will actually be capable of dealing more damage (ambush->concealed strike->soul harvest/impale)

...what were we complaining about again?

So it sounds like you yourself have played around with the different bow openers in 1.5. Mind confirming that for me since I don't think you ever specified, this could just be speculation and I want to make sure I get my information correct

Someone, preferably you, has gone into the PTS and tested the burst capabilities of the different openers with bow in comparison to how they react on live servers? If so, good man. That's is what I like to hear, and of course I'm excited that ZoS is doing some decent balancing

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Takuto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

That said, the bow burst dmg is actually getting nerfed in 1.5: faster animation & travel time on snipe, so no time to queue up heavy attack+venom arrow to land at the same time anymore. Not to mention the -5% dmg...

They changed the stats you get for VR, so you can now dump health/magika and gain stamina. My nightblade on PTS has ~2950 stamina. If I had more crafting mats I'm sure I could push both my weapon power and stamina higher. I suspect that given this the 5% decease in damage when combined with the increase in stats is a wash.

And with the changed stats, you can dump more points into health, instead of magicka/stamina. What is the problem here?

Takuto wrote: »

The dramatic increase in attack speed with snipe concerns me, the initial shot will hit around the same as it does in 1.4, the difference is the second shot will come much faster. I really don't understand why ZOS felt this ability needed such a huge DPS increase. Bow is already a very popular weapon in PVP, and while the bow line has 3 completely useless abilities, snipe wasn't one of them.

No, you clearly don't understand.
Bow has always been about burst damage until now, the sequence being: Lethal Arrow or Focused Aim->long travel time, during which you charge heavy attack+venom arrow->all land at the same time dealing 2,5k-3k~ damage.

After that, if the target wasn't dead and you kept using bow, the best route for DPS would be Venom Arrow spam, clipped with Light Attack.
Sadly, the DPS of that method is abysmal and doesn't kill anyone who knows how to heal or worse, dmg shield.

After patch, this is going to be the sequence:
Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim->short travel time, during which you can get off a light attack and maybe a venom arrow->2,2k-2,6k~ damage
OR
Lethal Arrow->short travel time, during which you cast Lethal Arrow again->arrow travels again->target has broken CC & is blocking/healed before second Lethal Arrow lands.

What this does change however, is how bow measures against other specs beyond that sneak attack. Now you'll have an option to use Lethal Arrow (or Focused Aim) outside the opening sequence for good damage, making bows less a "kill quick or run away" spec, while still not being op (remember that you can interrupt those lethal arrows).

From PvE perspective, this should actually make bows do equal, or even better DPS than magicka builds in trials (with less group synergies though).
I'm actually thinking about using the less used bow skills in PvE, since they deal quite nice damage (atleast Scorched Earth)

Pre-patch, bow DPS was around 800-1k, compared to 1,3k Magicka DPS

Takuto wrote: »

I don't expect ZOS to adjust this in any meaningful way, and I think the unintended consequences of this change will have very negative affects on PVP. I say this based on the opinion that longer fights tend to be more entertaining than those measured in tenths of a second.

I agree longer fights tend to be more entertaining (atleast when fighting equal level+geared opponents).

There are multiple ways of making that happen; one way you as a player can achieve that, is getting more health & armour. I have never been one shot in this game with 3,2k health.

How ZOS could make the fights last longer? Simple, add more health to everyone as a bonus when you enter Cyrodiil (but some changes to Blazing Shield/Green Dragon Blood would be necessary since they scale off max health).

The biggest problem is being able to get huge bursts of damage without the same risks that melee have....

The bow burst damage is going down slightly next patch, and melee builds will actually be capable of dealing more damage (ambush->concealed strike->soul harvest/impale)

...what were we complaining about again?

So it sounds like you yourself have played around with the different bow openers in 1.5. Mind confirming that for me since I don't think you ever specified, this could just be speculation and I want to make sure I get my information correct

Someone, preferably you, has gone into the PTS and tested the burst capabilities of the different openers with bow in comparison to how they react on live servers? If so, good man. That's is what I like to hear, and of course I'm excited that ZoS is doing some decent balancing

5% damage drop isnt going to break the current ability for bow users to quickly dispatch a single target from stealth. In fact they will only get off snipes much more quicker, and can snipe spam more efficciently.

1.8s cast time snipe spam was usually good enough to kill someone who didn't know where the shots were coming from, and that is usually how it ends up being. .7s faster is a big deal and greatly overpowers the measly 5% drop in base damage.

Soris

DDuke wrote: »

No, you clearly don't understand.
Bow has always been about burst damage until now, the sequence being: Lethal Arrow or Focused Aim->long travel time, during which you charge heavy attack+venom arrow->all land at the same time dealing 2,5k-3k~ damage.

After that, if the target wasn't dead and you kept using bow, the best route for DPS would be Venom Arrow spam, clipped with Light Attack.
Sadly, the DPS of that method is abysmal and doesn't kill anyone who knows how to heal or worse, dmg shield.

After patch, this is going to be the sequence:
Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim->short travel time, during which you can get off a light attack and maybe a venom arrow->2,2k-2,6k~ damage
OR
Lethal Arrow->short travel time, during which you cast Lethal Arrow again->arrow travels again->target has broken CC & is blocking/healed before second Lethal Arrow lands.

Honest question, is it normal to have ~3k ranged burst in a game where you can have 3k-3.4k health ideally ?

You saying it will do less damage on first hit. So ok, lets say 2.5k then. But you will have fewer cast time with snipe by now.. 1 second after the guy eats 2.5k damage, you'll have another triple arrows that do +1k damage already sent into air from a damn tower or somewhere he can't even reach you. It isn't enough time for that break free animation and cast shield/cleanse/heal whatever after that. It is hardly enough with the current cast time for now, but not anymore.

How could anyone stop you to spam those massive hits more frequently from a safe spot other than a dk with reflect ?


And to everyone who keeps saying wear heavy armor, you have no *** idea. Heavy doesn't mitigates a *** enough. I, myself, wearing 5 heavy and still eating 2k snipe-only dmg all day. Only block and dodge works, and thanks god they do.

DDuke

faernaa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No, you clearly don't understand.
Bow has always been about burst damage until now, the sequence being: Lethal Arrow or Focused Aim->long travel time, during which you charge heavy attack+venom arrow->all land at the same time dealing 2,5k-3k~ damage.

After that, if the target wasn't dead and you kept using bow, the best route for DPS would be Venom Arrow spam, clipped with Light Attack.
Sadly, the DPS of that method is abysmal and doesn't kill anyone who knows how to heal or worse, dmg shield.

After patch, this is going to be the sequence:
Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim->short travel time, during which you can get off a light attack and maybe a venom arrow->2,2k-2,6k~ damage
OR
Lethal Arrow->short travel time, during which you cast Lethal Arrow again->arrow travels again->target has broken CC & is blocking/healed before second Lethal Arrow lands.

Honest question, is it normal to have ~3k ranged burst in a game where you can have 3k-3.4k health ideally ?

I'm personally not a big fan of it, but you can do so without using bow also. An elegant solution would be increasing health in Cyrodiil.

Still though, with over 700 hours in Cyrodiil, I've never been one shot in this game, so it can't be that bad.

faernaa wrote: »

You saying it will do less damage on first hit. So ok, lets say 2.5k then. But you will have fewer cast time with snipe by now.. 1 second after the guy eats 2.5k damage, you'll have another triple arrows that do +1k damage already sent into air from a damn tower or somewhere he can't even reach you. It isn't enough time for that break free animation and cast shield/cleanse/heal whatever after that. It is hardly enough with the current cast time for now, but not anymore.

2,5k crit sounds like it's on someone that got marked first, which also requires time to apply (apply it before, and the target simply starts blocking/dodging).

You don't get it. The issue currently is, that you can make 3 shots land at the same time (Lethal Arrow, Heavy Attack & Venom Arrow/Poison Injection). That is what causes the huge damage, after patch you won't be able to do that anymore. Combine that with the -5% damage, and you'll have less burst, but better sustained DPS (assuming Snipe doesn't get interrupted).

Snipe->Snipe, the hits always land 1,3 seconds between, there's no 3k burst anymore. Someone might as well be spamming crystal shards at you (funny how that doesn't get any QQ).

faernaa wrote: »

How could anyone stop you to spam those massive hits more frequently from a safe spot other than a dk with reflect ?

How can you stop anyone from attacking from a safe spot?

1. You go out of range.
2. You use the reflect skill from S&B.
3. You stealth.
4. You use a siege weapon on that "safe spot".
5. You Block & Heal, or spam dmg shield

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

So it sounds like you yourself have played around with the different bow openers in 1.5. Mind confirming that for me since I don't think you ever specified, this could just be speculation and I want to make sure I get my information correct

Someone, preferably you, has gone into the PTS and tested the burst capabilities of the different openers with bow in comparison to how they react on live servers? If so, good man. That's is what I like to hear, and of course I'm excited that ZoS is doing some decent balancing

There are multiple people who tested it on PTS and have posted on this thread & the other one about how the previous burst is no longer possible because of shorter animations.

Samadhi

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Mondo wrote: »

Dont know where everybody got this huge numbers from. Snipe dont hit for 2k

Snipe + Hunter+ heavy + poison will be 2500+ but not snipe = 2k nope nope nope

And camo hunter doesnt even work with bows anymore according to the patch notes lol.

it does

Also for the record...you can hit for 2k with Lethal Arrow..But it pretty much requires Archer Mind gear, max stamina,max weapon damage and a Nightblade to do it..so its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him

Out of curiosity, with identical gear sets would a Nightblade hit harder or a Sorcerer?

Nightblade gets 10% added weapon damage in Sneak and 5% extra damage on crits.

Sorcerer gets a substantial weapon damage buff from Surge.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Bow already receives a lower Sneak Attack modifier than Two-Handed (Melee weapon) does.

Wrecking Blow:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 757 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 3555 damage to target.

Snipe:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 873 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 1919 damage to target.

So with higher base damage, Snipe still deals lower Sneak Attack damage than a comparable Melee attack.

Personally, would not object to Snipe having the Sneak Attack bonus removed. See no reason for such a change though. It already receives a lower bonus than Melee receives. Most magic does not receive Sneak Attack bonuses because it does not aim for vital points, which was also the case in previous Elder Scrolls games.
Would object to Bow having the Sneak Attack bonus removed from all other attacks though. Bows have been my Sneak Attack weapons on my assassins since Oblivion, and it makes sense as a bonus for the weapon type.

To me, the greater issue is that every single skill in the Dual Wield line is trash as a Sneak Attack.

Thats a good pve reference, but in pvp the sneak multipliers on the two skills are the same. It would be quite overpowered to be able to sneak crit someone for 3k damage on the norm with uppercut yes? Its nerfed in PvP and always has been.

Snipe will do more damage to the same target than uppercut with those listed damage numbers. There is no incentive to sneaking with a melee weapon against another player when snipe can do it for more damage from a safe distance with almost no chance of getting caught.

A player from the EU server recently posted some videos that might be helpful here.
Snipe usage in PvP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIRNopz8d8Y

Uppercut usage in PvP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cK-tOv8FUc

Itse90210 wrote: »

... Same armor with mine bow build, just another skills and weapons.
...

In equal gear setup, Uppercut is consistently doing higher damage, even though the skill has a lower base damage.
Snipe ranging 1700-2200.
Uppercut ranging 2000-2500 roughly, spiking as high as 2700.

My own usage of Snipe and Wrecking Blow in PvP reflect this outcome, but my connection is too gimped to upload videos.

Uppercut is receiving a lower Sneak Attack modifier in PvP than it receives in PvE; however, the Sneak Attack modifier on Uppercut appears to still be higher than the Sneak Attack modifier on Snipe in PvP.

Again, my issue remains that Dual Wield skill line has no decent Sneak Attack openers in comparison.
Given how poorly Dual Wield performs as a Sneak Attack, it is better for a double dagger assassin to go full Magicka build and use class skills.

Xsorus

Durham wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Mondo wrote: »

Dont know where everybody got this huge numbers from. Snipe dont hit for 2k

Snipe + Hunter+ heavy + poison will be 2500+ but not snipe = 2k nope nope nope

And camo hunter doesnt even work with bows anymore according to the patch notes lol.

it does

Also for the record...you can hit for 2k with Lethal Arrow..But it pretty much requires Archer Mind gear, max stamina,max weapon damage and a Nightblade to do it..so its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him

I was hit for 2070 in pvp Friday night . I have 2k armor... On the test server its hitting much harder now.. You cant have archers doing this much damage and two handers no where close to this....

We are doing min maxing tests on the server tonight in pvp.. being that bow can min/max very easily in this game and be viable... On mobs last night damage was crazy...killing a boss mamoth before it can get to you..


Currently there are already a ton of bow users in PVP.. Being melee myself i find myself getting hit with multiple archers in almost every fight.. Im finding myself always with out endo because of arrows sapping all my endo... Its gotten really bad since the last patch...Bow needs no buff at all in fact it needs reduction... Insta kills or fights with no ability to fight back 1v1 are bad for pvp...


7

Snipe is hitting for 5% less damage on PTS right now... Its not going to hit for more.

Xsorus

Also Sneak Damage from bow isn't a problem..

What is a problem is Radiant Mage Light being broken since Beta...Fix that ability and if you wanted to take less damage from Snipe Sneak Attacks you could.

Samadhi

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Also Sneak Damage from bow isn't a problem..

What is a problem is Radiant Mage Light being broken since Beta...Fix that ability and if you wanted to take less damage from Snipe Sneak Attacks you could.

The issue with Radiant Mage Light warrants a thread itself.

It is interesting that there are two threads seeking to nerf Snipe, but no threads asking for a fix to the bug with the pre-existing counter to Sneak Attack damage.