Remove SneakDMG from Bows

Kego

I always wondered why Bows are the only Ranged Weapon that is capable of Sneak Attacks. As I see it, Sneak Attacks is a BonusDMG for characters that brings themself into danger for moving into close combat, something Ranged DPS like Mages AND Bow User are not up to.

With the underpowered Stamina Builds and Skills I was fine with Sneak Attacks of Bows but I think, with Update 5 it is more than time to remove it from this Weapon as well.

With a 1.1 second duration for releasing a Snipe, Bow gets way to strong in PvP.
You can stay at 35y range and deal easily around 1.500-2.000DPS Singletarget which means a death within 2-3 seconds. Even faster if the Enemy is a Vampire or WW and the Bow User casts Camoflaged Hunter.

I really like the changes done to bow, cause it will bring it up to other Builds in PvE with a Rotation of Snipe, Poison Injection and Heavy Attacks. But the Burst DMG in PvP is totally out of control with the Update 5 change.

PBpsy

I strongly agree. Death Stroke sneak bonus was removed and it was an melee ultimate that was harder to pull of then the bow rotations and less deadly. It was also an old TES mechanic for ranged sneak attacks to do less damage then melee sneak attacks.

DDuke

Burst damage won't change much after the patch.

How it was done previously: Snipe->Venom Arrow->Heavy Attack (all land at the same time) = 2,5k-3k~ dmg, unless target blocks or dodges

How it can be done after patch: Snipe(only first one crits with sneak dmg)->Snipe->Snipe->Snipe = lots of dmg, but you have time to react between them since Snipe takes time to travel (which is why on the above version all shots land at the same time)


Only thing that is changing is, that bow will have better sustained DPS after the initial burst, something which was much needed.
You're already giving up on self heals & dmg shields when you're speccing stamina, it's only fair that you're able to deal more dmg for making that sacrifice.


That said, I'd be more than happy if they increased the amount of health you get in Cyrodiil, in order to counter the "one hit kills"

Kego

DDuke wrote: »

How it was done previously: Snipe->Venom Arrow->Heavy Attack (all land at the same time) = 2,5k-3k~ dmg, unless target blocks or dodges

How it can be done after patch: Snipe(only first one crits with sneak dmg)->Snipe->Snipe->Snipe = lots of dmg, but you have time to react between them since Snipe takes time to travel (which is why on the above version all shots land at the same time)

It is still not alright. Where is the incentive of using Melee Sneak Attacks, if you can do the same at 35y range?
Maybe ZOS should start and give Spells a Sneak Attack as well? I think there is a good reason why Spells don't have it.

I'm fine with a NB that hits me out of hidden for 2K DMG in Melee, cause as soon as he pops out, he will be Target Nr. 1 for everyone around me. He needs his fast kill but a Ranger? No, he doesn't, like Mages don't need it as well.

DDuke

Kego wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

How it was done previously: Snipe->Venom Arrow->Heavy Attack (all land at the same time) = 2,5k-3k~ dmg, unless target blocks or dodges

How it can be done after patch: Snipe(only first one crits with sneak dmg)->Snipe->Snipe->Snipe = lots of dmg, but you have time to react between them since Snipe takes time to travel (which is why on the above version all shots land at the same time)

It is still not alright. Where is the incentive of using Melee Sneak Attacks, if you can do the same at 35y range?
Maybe ZOS should start and give Spells a Sneak Attack as well? I think there is a good reason why Spells don't have it.

I'm fine with a NB that hits me out of hidden for 2K DMG in Melee, cause as soon as he pops out, he will be Target Nr. 1 for everyone around me. He needs his fast kill but a Ranger? No, he doesn't, like Mages don't need it as well.

I agree, melee sneak attacks should deal more damage, and I think there should be some kind of utility skills for getting to melee range while sneaking, to make it easier to get that sneak attack.
I'd expect something like that with the Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild skill lines, but until that, I believe this is what we've got

eventide03b14a_ESO

The idea is that when you attack someone who isn't expecting it you have advantage that you can more easily hit him in vulnerable places. That is why in games it's treated as a damage bonus and ESO is not the first to do this, it's actually pretty standard amongst RPGs. I see no problem with it and I have never been one-shotted, even on my v3 sorcerer in v1 gear. He doesn't even have impenetrable on his gear. This is just one more instance of people crying because they have to figure out how to play the game tactically. I'm sorry but running around in a robe with a staff is just not going to cut it anymore now that we have people fighting like they would in actual combat. Adjust your tactics and stop whining about nerfing bows.

Prokonto

just make bow snake bonus 50%(40%?) instead of 100% mele have. that should be fair.

Samadhi

Bow already receives a lower Sneak Attack modifier than Two-Handed (Melee weapon) does.

Wrecking Blow:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 757 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 3555 damage to target.

Snipe:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 873 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 1919 damage to target.

So with higher base damage, Snipe still deals lower Sneak Attack damage than a comparable Melee attack.

Personally, would not object to Snipe having the Sneak Attack bonus removed. See no reason for such a change though. It already receives a lower bonus than Melee receives. Most magic does not receive Sneak Attack bonuses because it does not aim for vital points, which was also the case in previous Elder Scrolls games.
Would object to Bow having the Sneak Attack bonus removed from all other attacks though. Bows have been my Sneak Attack weapons on my assassins since Oblivion, and it makes sense as a bonus for the weapon type.

To me, the greater issue is that every single skill in the Dual Wield line is trash as a Sneak Attack.

Hypertionb14_ESO

PBpsy wrote: »

I strongly agree. Death Stroke sneak bonus was removed and it was an melee ultimate that was harder to pull of then the bow rotations and less deadly. It was also an old TES mechanic for ranged sneak attacks to do less damage then melee sneak attacks.

death stroke was far more powerful than any bow currently can be..

you could easily crit for over 3k if it still got sneak attack bonuses..

right now on PTS sneak attack bonus is only buffing snipe to 1.6k from 1.2k

compare that to uppercut which on live, goes from 1k to 3k, and there is no comparison in the damage bonus that bows get vs melee weapons..

no point in removing entirely atm.

Bows could sneak attack in previous TES games, but not as hard as melee, in fact its currently quite in line, a melee sneak attack will hit as hard if not significantly harder than a bow sneak attack.

DDuke

Snipe:
Reduced the cast time for this ability by approximately 40%
Reduced the damage done by this ability by 5%

In fact, the burst damage made by bow (which people not using bow liked to complain about) was nerfed slightly, while the sustained damage (which people using bow liked to complain about) was increased.

Win-Win, can't really understand why people are still complaining...

c0rp

Sorry NO. Bows already have a reduced sneak attack bonus compared to melee. So there is your incentive to sneak in melee. And besides, the damage on Snipe is reduced on the patch, so the burst is already REDUCED.

/thread

Thejollygreenone

As a bow user who really only engages in sneak combat in PvP, I would actually be fine with a compromise to remove the stealth damage bonus from bows in PvP.

Keep the automatic critical hit and stun, and that sounds balanced as hell. Casters still dont get automatic crits from stealth, so being physical damage and stamina based will net you advantages for still using bow from stealth.

All in all I would totally agree that one should do more damage from stealth with abilities only under, say, 8m in range (that's generous even). I personally feel if this change were to go through for physical ranged abilities, it should also apply to physical gap closers, since they also can be accessed from range.

Only one gap closer actually can use stealth bonus though and that's ambush. It feels perfectly acceptable to me for ambush to also apply to this ranged disadvantage, and only receive an automatic crit but no damage bonus.

That way, if you want the damage bonus you actually have to work hard to get in range, as has been discussed in this thread. That's my two cents on the subject.

ExiledKhallisi

I think it's fine. Magicka users are going to complain alot once they start seeing competition vs phys builds

Kego

These comments shows at best. That players are not interested in a balanced game. They only care for their own good and the hope to kill with Update 5 anyone within 2 seconds for easy gained APs.

michaelb14a_ESO2

People who took the easy win playstyle of OP skirts and sticks are going to have a tough go of it. They never learned to properly theorycraft or how to play, they took the easy FOTM builds and now cry when they can't run around in a robe tanking and stand in the open . Oh god the cries over the harness magicka change is enough to make this devoted stamina build NB grin as justice and balance is restored.

Kego

Just to bad that it doesn`t even matter if you have 800 or 2000 Armor. Snipe will just hit for ~2K DMG. So what are you trying to tell us?

And just btw. my character has Dual Wield, Bow, Resto Staff, Destruction Staff and 1Hand at Lvl 44+. So I know most builds out there and I know that Bow in PvP is currently as lame as the so much hated DK DPS-Whip Tank.

Darthryan

Tonight I tried to gank a dk..... he healed himself... so instead of running away which I normally do, I tried to just unload on him. He sat there taking all the damage I could give... popping cloak for increase in crit... everything. He took it all till literally I ran out of stamina and magic and gave up. He then started dancing and claping and laughing, mounted up and left. I wasn't even worth killing. So sad. He was vr14 same as me. I'm in all legendary archers and hundlings. Wep dmg to neck and rings. Still couldn't hurt him. So nerf bows? Maybe. Nerf dks..... definetly. At least make it competitive for all where every class can 1v1 anyone with outcomes even not just always onesided.

suycyco

Kego wrote: »

Just to bad that it doesn`t even matter if you have 800 or 2000 Armor. Snipe will just hit for ~2K DMG. So what are you trying to tell us?

I use to play my NB in two way, a 2H/bow stamina style or an heavy armor tank style. I was a bit bored of the classic magicka ambush 2 dagger style.
I switch depends who I am fighting with or if I want to play "hide and seek" style or more "I go in the middle and fight" both are fun but the more effective in Cyrodiil is the tank style in my opinion (and I'm even not playing it the more effective way cause the light armor (sic) is even more powerfull to play like that).

For the 2K damage on a 2K tank I would like to see the screen, because playing as a tank the bow user is the less scary think I can encounter in Cyrodiil the most painfull snipe I ever took in heavy was an 1.5K with mark on .

I don't say bow is not effective but I don't think it's the most OP way to play (by far) of the game.

Mondo

Dont know where everybody got this huge numbers from. Snipe dont hit for 2k

Snipe + Hunter+ heavy + poison will be 2500+ but not snipe = 2k nope nope nope

MorHawk

Samadhi wrote: »

Bow already receives a lower Sneak Attack modifier than Two-Handed (Melee weapon) does.

Wrecking Blow:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 757 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 3555 damage to target.

Snipe:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 873 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 1919 damage to target.

So with higher base damage, Snipe still deals lower Sneak Attack damage than a comparable Melee attack.

Thankyou for those numbers. Makes it fairly clear.
Safe to say this thread has been answered.

CPT_CAPSLOCK

@MorHawk
The numbers are for pvm only and i think this is a bug, cause these numbers are also for 2h only. In pvp the sneak attack bonus is the same for all melee and range weapons.

MorHawk

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

@MorHawk
The numbers are for pvm only and i think this is a bug, cause these numbers are also for 2h only. In pvp the sneak attack bonus is the same for all melee and range weapons.

1. PvM?
2. They're for 2H and Bow. Kind of the point of a comparison.
3. So you're saying that one of those does different sneak damage in PvP? Which one? Care to back that up with some numbers?

CPT_CAPSLOCK

There is no typo in my post...
In pvm 2h is doing alot more sneak dmg then it should do, if u do the same wrecking blow u posted there in pvp, it will do around 1,6k dmg.

c0rp

Mondo wrote: »

Dont know where everybody got this huge numbers from. Snipe dont hit for 2k

Snipe + Hunter+ heavy + poison will be 2500+ but not snipe = 2k nope nope nope

And camo hunter doesnt even work with bows anymore according to the patch notes lol.

MorHawk

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

There is no typo in my post...
In pvm 2h is doing alot more sneak dmg then it should do, if u do the same wrecking blow u posted there in pvp, it will do around 1,6k dmg.

Gosh, there's that tingly feeling when someone doesn't pick and choose which parts of my post they respond to. Oh wait...

Since you refuse to elaborate, I must assume that the acronym you're using is "Player versus Monsters", a far more obscure way of saying PvE, but that's clearly too mainstream for you.

Thank you for at least clarifying which skill you were talking about, but again, we need numbers to back this claim up. Specific ones. Preferably screenshotted. 'a lot more than 1.6k' is just a smidge vague.

CPT_CAPSLOCK

Just dont post numbers from pvm, if u are talking about pvp and the problem is solved.

MorHawk

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

Just dont post numbers from pvm, if u are talking about pvp and the problem is solved.

Oy vey.

Yusuf

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

I think it's fine. Magicka users are going to complain alot once they start seeing competition vs phys builds

It's not competition if a lonely player gets shot by 3 1.8k arrows from stealth

Yusuf

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

People who took the easy win playstyle of OP skirts and sticks are going to have a tough go of it. They never learned to properly theorycraft or how to play, they took the easy FOTM builds and now cry when they can't run around in a robe tanking and stand in the open . Oh god the cries over the harness magicka change is enough to make this devoted stamina build NB grin as justice and balance is restored.

"Theorycrafting" is coming up with the most efficient build am i right? So that would mean the "FOTM"-Builds were actually the best theorycrafters in the game and those who stood true to stamina where the worst.

I'm not bickering i just wanted to point out that you may have too much of a personal vendetta going on here xD

Xsorus

c0rp wrote: »

Mondo wrote: »

Dont know where everybody got this huge numbers from. Snipe dont hit for 2k

Snipe + Hunter+ heavy + poison will be 2500+ but not snipe = 2k nope nope nope

And camo hunter doesnt even work with bows anymore according to the patch notes lol.

it does

Also for the record...you can hit for 2k with Lethal Arrow..But it pretty much requires Archer Mind gear, max stamina,max weapon damage and a Nightblade to do it..so its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him

Soris

MorHawk wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Bow already receives a lower Sneak Attack modifier than Two-Handed (Melee weapon) does.

Wrecking Blow:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 757 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 3555 damage to target.

Snipe:
Tooltip reads: "Deals 873 Physical Damage to target"
Use as a Sneak Attack causes: 1919 damage to target.

So with higher base damage, Snipe still deals lower Sneak Attack damage than a comparable Melee attack.

Thankyou for those numbers. Makes it fairly clear.
Safe to say this thread has been answered.

^This is wrong. They share same sneak attack bonus.

Wrecking blow does not hit anything near 3k damage from stealth. It hits around 1.4k - 1.8k max with 220 weapon damage and 2400 stamina. Out of stealth, it hits roughly 700-800.

3k hits were a bug when 1.3 patch went live and after a week later it fixed. Please don't give fake or out of date informations. Test it yourself before you claim something. Test it on actual players not npcs.

It hits 3k only wolves and lions around in cyrodiil, see the difference!


Snipe numbers are true tho.