How are heavy attacks replenishing stam going to help.....

jelliedsoup

Heavy attacks damage is pretty low anyway, all I'll do is take a second to wind up get a 300 hit, in the meantime I'm a sitting duck in melee.

It will help bow, don't see how its going to help 'balance' against devouring swarm, talons, bolt escape spammers.

If someone has some insight here that would be cool, apart from shadowy disguise with a heavy attack I don't see how this is useful in melee at all.

ers101284b14_ESO

Enemy tries to do a special attack, you block which stuns him and takes away some stamina counter with a heavy attack to knock them down and restore stamina. It's not the only thing they are doing its just more of a start. Just like when they buffed medium armor it wasn't the only fix just the one of many.

madangrypally

My heavy attack with my nightblade hits for over 1k in PvE. It can do some good damage.

The issue is that in PvP most players can easily see when someone is about to do a heavy attack and block it. Thus its not that viable in PvP (expect bows).

DenverRalphy

If you're winding up for a heavy attack, your opponent decides to block it... They lose stamina while you gained stamina.

jelliedsoup

madangrypally wrote: »

My heavy attack with my nightblade hits for over 1k in PvE. It can do some good damage.

The issue is that in PvP most players can easily see when someone is about to do a heavy attack and block it. Thus its not that viable in PvP (expect bows).

Sorry yes, I don't find pve an issue for stam builds. Sure we don't do as much damage as spamming impulse.

jelliedsoup

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Enemy tries to do a special attack, you block which stuns him and takes away some stamina counter with a heavy attack to knock them down and restore stamina. It's not the only thing they are doing its just more of a start. Just like when they buffed medium armor it wasn't the only fix just the one of many.

Do you play a stam build?

ers101284b14_ESO

jelliedsoup wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Enemy tries to do a special attack, you block which stuns him and takes away some stamina counter with a heavy attack to knock them down and restore stamina. It's not the only thing they are doing its just more of a start. Just like when they buffed medium armor it wasn't the only fix just the one of many.

Do you play a stam build?

Mostly yes. I do more of a tank so I base my build off heavy armor. My attacks are still stamina based and I use heavy attack a lot. But stamina is not my main focus.

jelliedsoup

I'm a stam NB and still find I'm completely overpowered by same level sorcs/ vamps and dks.

Emperor

I'm sure it will help, but I'm still not sure how it makes any logical sense... A player swings his 2-hand sword with all his might!.... and GAINS stamina!?

Meh.. w\e

Mumyo

Emperor wrote: »

I'm sure it will help, but I'm still not sure how it makes any logical sense... A player swings his 2-hand sword with all his might!.... and GAINS stamina!?

Meh.. w\e

Got another one for you^^ people can make fire come out of their arm.
Dont u dare play the realism card in here!!!

ers101284b14_ESO

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I'm a stam NB and still find I'm completely overpowered by same level sorcs/ vamps and dks.

Well I'm none of those so I don't know. So far everyone else I have seen on here says NB Stamina is useless and will die by being sneezed on. So I got nothing on that but I am glad that I will finally get some stamina return on my character.

Emperor wrote: »

I'm sure it will help, but I'm still not sure how it makes any logical sense... A player swings his 2-hand sword with all his might!.... and GAINS stamina!?

Meh.. w\e

As for making sense in a literal way no it doesn't. From a design sense it does because the heavy attack is used much less than a regular attack. If they returned stamina every time someone did a regular attack then people would never run out and it would be the new OP thing.

ExiledKhallisi

Really? How does replenishing magicka with resto staff help?

DenverRalphy

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I'm a stam NB and still find I'm completely overpowered by same level sorcs/ vamps and dks.

How are you confronting them? My NB mixes in a pretty sizable smattering of counter/interrupts right in their faces, and does alright.

firstdecan

It's a poor attempt to address the issue stam builds have where their special attacks and maneuvers (blocking, dodging) come out of the same pool.

As a mechanic it makes no sense, why would hitting something harder replenish your energy instead of taking more?

They should not introduce this mechanic. Instead, they should simply lower the cost of stam based abilities by a reasonable percentage to account for the fact that builds using stam skills need to do so from a shared resource pool.

The other thing they need to do is purposefully look at the synergies that exist for weapons / weapon skills and adjust them so they are on par with the synergies that exist in the magic based builds. Most high dps builds are based on stacking DoTs from different abilities, coupled with passives or ability secondary effects that recoup magica. This is the crux behind the 'stick and dress only' frustration many players have. Weapon DoTs are usually bleed effects that many monsters are immune to, and there isn't enough of them to stack the way you can with class \ destro skills. There are also fewer options for boosting 'armor penetration' when compared to spell penetration. A couple more skills like igneous weapons that boost weapon damage, coupled with the ability to apply those increases to the damage of stam based skills could bridge the gap.

jelliedsoup

Emperor wrote: »

I'm sure it will help, but I'm still not sure how it makes any logical sense... A player swings his 2-hand sword with all his might!.... and GAINS stamina!?

Meh.. w\e

Logic has never really been in this game. Why did they decide magicka is stronger than stamina, use stamina for roll, block etc.

AoEs do more damage than single target etc.

Beginning to think this game is not really for me, I'm not a DK/SOrc/Vamp or magicka person. Shame really, the game has so much potential, just I find there are fundamental flaws in the game design, and when their fixes include making heavy attacks return stamina, I just sit there shaking my head and making posts like these.

TheBull

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I'm a stam NB and still find I'm completely overpowered by same level sorcs/ vamps and dks.

Almsot like we take extra dmg.

jelliedsoup

DenverRalphy wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I'm a stam NB and still find I'm completely overpowered by same level sorcs/ vamps and dks.

How are you confronting them? My NB mixes in a pretty sizable smattering of counter/interrupts right in their faces, and does alright.

In melee, i use the standard ambush/concealed weapon. After I've done my initial reasonable damage most will self-heal back to full health and chuck devouring swarm, BE and shards, talons and I will pretty much dead.

I'm thinking I need the immovable in smaller battles to give me some survivability.

Bow does ok, but in my Melee bar I have;

Flurry, Concealed weapon, Shadow Disguise, Hidden Blade, Ambush.

Resueht

firstdecan wrote: »

It's a poor attempt to address the issue stam builds have where their special attacks and maneuvers (blocking, dodging) come out of the same pool.

As a mechanic it makes no sense, why would hitting something harder replenish your energy instead of taking more?

They should not introduce this mechanic. Instead, they should simply lower the cost of stam based abilities by a reasonable percentage to account for the fact that builds using stam skills need to do so from a shared resource pool.

The other thing they need to do is purposefully look at the synergies that exist for weapons / weapon skills and adjust them so they are on par with the synergies that exist in the magic based builds. Most high dps builds are based on stacking DoTs from different abilities, coupled with passives or ability secondary effects that recoup magica. This is the crux behind the 'stick and dress only' frustration many players have. Weapon DoTs are usually bleed effects that many monsters are immune to, and there isn't enough of them to stack the way you can with class \ destro skills. There are also fewer options for boosting 'armor penetration' when compared to spell penetration. A couple more skills like igneous weapons that boost weapon damage, coupled with the ability to apply those increases to the damage of stam based skills could bridge the gap.

I disagree with lowering the cost. Maybe give better bonuses to cost reduction on stamina skill trees (like better weapon passives)? Don't globally lower them because then magica users who haven't spec'd into stamina still get that benefit; the buff needs to come to stamina builds not strictly stamina skills.

I do agree with the better synergies. There just isn't much to combo with while using different weapon skills/armor...at least compared to light/staff.

firstdecan

Resueht wrote: »

firstdecan wrote: »

It's a poor attempt to address the issue stam builds have where their special attacks and maneuvers (blocking, dodging) come out of the same pool.

As a mechanic it makes no sense, why would hitting something harder replenish your energy instead of taking more?

They should not introduce this mechanic. Instead, they should simply lower the cost of stam based abilities by a reasonable percentage to account for the fact that builds using stam skills need to do so from a shared resource pool.

The other thing they need to do is purposefully look at the synergies that exist for weapons / weapon skills and adjust them so they are on par with the synergies that exist in the magic based builds. Most high dps builds are based on stacking DoTs from different abilities, coupled with passives or ability secondary effects that recoup magica. This is the crux behind the 'stick and dress only' frustration many players have. Weapon DoTs are usually bleed effects that many monsters are immune to, and there isn't enough of them to stack the way you can with class \ destro skills. There are also fewer options for boosting 'armor penetration' when compared to spell penetration. A couple more skills like igneous weapons that boost weapon damage, coupled with the ability to apply those increases to the damage of stam based skills could bridge the gap.

I disagree with lowering the cost. Maybe give better bonuses to cost reduction on stamina skill trees (like better weapon passives)? Don't globally lower them because then magica users who haven't spec'd into stamina still get that benefit; the buff needs to come to stamina builds not strictly stamina skills.

I do agree with the better synergies. There just isn't much to combo with while using different weapon skills/armor...at least compared to light/staff.

The intention behind lowering the stam skill costs would be to allow a similar number of stam skills to be cast while blocking / dodging as a magicka skill user could. Obviously you can't measure that out one for one, but somewhere between a 6% to 10% reduction in the cost of stam skills should make this silly stam recovery mechanic unnecessary. As you suggested, giving cost reduction through passives would have the same effect, that could be a good way to go.

Any way you cut it though, I think the mechanic of gaining stam for swinging a weapon harder is poorly thought out and just silly. It's not going to balance stam issues.

Tavore1138

You forget the favoured destro & resto staff wielders who can often be seen using ranged heavy staff attacks, this will keep their stamina charged so they can dodge the occasional melee attack that comes near them before they can impulse you to death.

Your mistake was in thinking that they are trying to help melee builds.

I imagine the reason they changed the medium armour passive from increased speed on light/heavy attacks was to ensure that the up coming change ran no risk of actually helping medium wearers.

Jade1986

This just seems like a lazy fix, why not REDUCE the cost of stamina attacks the more you have invested into stamina? This isn't rocket science

Gillysan

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

You forget the favoured destro & resto staff wielders who can often be seen using ranged heavy staff attacks, this will keep their stamina charged so they can dodge the occasional melee attack that comes near them before they can impulse you to death.

Your mistake was in thinking that they are trying to help melee builds.

I imagine the reason they changed the medium armor passive from increased speed on light/heavy attacks was to ensure that the up coming change ran no risk of actually helping medium wearers.

Hasn't this been discussed enough and disproven? Starting to sound like a political campaign instead of one based on actual facts.

Maybe there can be added a better dodge, block component to Stamina builds. Every point in Stamina reduces the cost to those two things by x%, so a high Stamina build will have plenty of resources, while someone who specs more into Magicka or even Health has less resources to dodge and block.

They should add other kinds of damage effects for meleers, like breaking bones and breaking armor. I lose myeself here a bit, so help me out:
break bones effect = reduced magicka regeneration x seconds
break armor = reduced spell resist x seconds
The more Stamina points in the build the better these effects.

Well this game came out great for magicka use so they got some work ahead of themselves to balance it out. I don't think some of this could have been done until people put it to the test in a competitive environment that you get with the live game.

Gillysan

laced wrote: »

This just seems like a lazy fix, why not REDUCE the cost of stamina attacks the more you have invested into stamina? This isn't rocket science

LOL just noticed that you already said what I was trying to say. The guy above you distracted me.

firstdecan

Gillysan wrote: »

{snip}

I don't think some of this could have been done until people put it to the test in a competitive environment that you get with the live game.

Wasn't that supposed to be the point of Beta testing?

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Heavy attacks damage is pretty low anyway, all I'll do is take a second to wind up get a 300 hit, in the meantime I'm a sitting duck in melee.

It will help bow, don't see how its going to help 'balance' against devouring swarm, talons, bolt escape spammers.

If someone has some insight here that would be cool, apart from shadowy disguise with a heavy attack I don't see how this is useful in melee at all.

what does those moves have to do with anything. there has been unending QQ about resto having magica return on heavy. if they give you stamina on heavy ok then, aside from not really making sense in the franchise( because heavy cost stamina in other games) it helps balance THAT issue. compare stamina regain with magica regain, not every move you dislike playing against!

Varicite

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Heavy attacks damage is pretty low anyway, all I'll do is take a second to wind up get a 300 hit, in the meantime I'm a sitting duck in melee.

It will help bow, don't see how its going to help 'balance' against devouring swarm, talons, bolt escape spammers.

If someone has some insight here that would be cool, apart from shadowy disguise with a heavy attack I don't see how this is useful in melee at all.

I see this as more of a PvE benefit than for PvP, where stamina builds can have some sustainability issues.

Stamina builds have their own issues in PvP, but in general, it's not because you ran out of stamina as a dps (not counting S&B builds here, as I would consider those more of an "outlast" setup).

Of course, S&B builds will just be even more powerful w/ this change, imo.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

You forget the favoured destro & resto staff wielders who can often be seen using ranged heavy staff attacks, this will keep their stamina charged so they can dodge the occasional melee attack that comes near them before they can impulse you to death.

No, this Stamina return on heavy attacks will only give Stamina back to NoN-Staff weapon users, as in Melee weapons and such, ohh yeah and bow users as well.

So, no the Magicka staff wielding users will not be getting Stamina from their heavy attacks to dodge and such.

jelliedsoup

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Heavy attacks damage is pretty low anyway, all I'll do is take a second to wind up get a 300 hit, in the meantime I'm a sitting duck in melee.

It will help bow, don't see how its going to help 'balance' against devouring swarm, talons, bolt escape spammers.

If someone has some insight here that would be cool, apart from shadowy disguise with a heavy attack I don't see how this is useful in melee at all.

what does those moves have to do with anything. there has been unending QQ about resto having magica return on heavy. if they give you stamina on heavy ok then, aside from not really making sense in the franchise( because heavy cost stamina in other games) it helps balance THAT issue. compare stamina regain with magica regain, not every move you dislike playing against!

The point is the return of stamina from heavy attacks is faaaaaaaaaaaar from making any significant difference in this game as far as rebalancing goes. Oh yes, slowly but surely I forgot. This should keep those pesky stam builds happy for a few months.

Perhaps you're a stam user, who thinks the game is balanced, perhaps you're a light and staff who thinks everyone else is qq'ing too much. I'm going for the latter.

Gillysan

firstdecan wrote: »

Gillysan wrote: »

{snip}

I don't think some of this could have been done until people put it to the test in a competitive environment that you get with the live game.

Wasn't that supposed to be the point of Beta testing?

This isn't even the main point of my post.

Regardless, factors you forgot to include in your calculus:
How many beta tests were run.
How many days were beta test. (Did they allow players to level very much. Did they start players at higher levels. Did players get starting money or were they merely testing the new player experience.)
How large was the pool. (open beta pool vs closed beta pool)
What were the specific tasks they were working on during beta and what did they consider done. (I don't recall them ever saying, everyone please go test pvp, i.e. they never seemed to give open beta testers specific tasks/requests)
Were bug fixes retested? I recall very little bugs being tested, it seems like we were only there to stress test the servers.

Also given this awful minimalist UI a lot of hard numbers testing could not be done. I would have had more faith in the beta tests if they ran for 2 weeks at a time instead of 2 days. *rolls eyes*

PTS pool, aka closed beta testers, pool wasn't that huge from the comments I saw from PTS testers.

In answer to your question, no, a beta test will never equal the amount of data generated from a live game with millions or 100's of thousands of players.

Gillysan

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Heavy attacks damage is pretty low anyway, all I'll do is take a second to wind up get a 300 hit, in the meantime I'm a sitting duck in melee.

It will help bow, don't see how its going to help 'balance' against devouring swarm, talons, bolt escape spammers.

If someone has some insight here that would be cool, apart from shadowy disguise with a heavy attack I don't see how this is useful in melee at all.

what does those moves have to do with anything. there has been unending QQ about resto having magica return on heavy. if they give you stamina on heavy ok then, aside from not really making sense in the franchise( because heavy cost stamina in other games) it helps balance THAT issue. compare stamina regain with magica regain, not every move you dislike playing against!

Actually I can see it. This is a realm where magic is real. The key word here is stealing. Magicka is stolen from your opponent. Health life force is stolen from your opponent. Stamina life energy is stolen from your opponent. It's not that big of a stretch of the imagination if you word it that way.

jelliedsoup

I recall a poll during the beta phase where approx 50% of responders thought that Class skills should be more powerful than Weapons.

I was/am amazed at the preference ZoS and this 50% of players have for Class/Magicka.

It appears diversity is not an end goal, nor is it even desired by some. The bollocks "cookie-cutter' term becomes entirely redundant, due to a lack of design.