Superiority of magicka over stamina by numbers

Shaun98ca2

tbrocato wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

They could do that but by the time the player base notices its "better" or "balanced" they will have tweaked the number TOO much and it will be outta whack again.

MAYBE the developers just are not certain HOW to properly fix it.

I know the player base sure hasn't come together on a single answer and its probably the same way internally.

THE bold / italic QUOTE is DEAD on BRO...IMO!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't say it as a insult to the developers but more of the state of the situation.

guybrushtb16_ESO

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The effectiveness of every class skill should increase either with the magicka pool and spell power or with the stamina pool and weapon power, depending on what is the best scenario for the player.

Or, even more simple:
- When equipping a 2 handed, a dual wield, a one hand and a shield, or a bow, the effectiveness of the class skills should increase with the stamina pool and weapon power
- When equipping a destruction staff or a restoration staff, the effectiveness of the class skills should increase with the magicka pool and spell power.

My issue with that proposed change would be that if stamina builds hat access to magicka skills at 100% efficiency, they'd effectively get another resource pool of 1700 with an additional 100% base regeneration and the potential for dual stat potions with double benefits, all entirely without opportunity cost; whereas magicka builds stood to gain nothing at all. I fear this would tip the balancing too far in their favor instead, which isn't actually any better then the current situation IMO.

As I see it, the core problem is that the itemization and much of the game's system are designed to suggest symmetry, but due to secondary costs of more or less important combat actions like dodge cc break and so on there will never actually be a "fair" tradeoff between the both of them across all situations.

Therefore, my personal favorite solution would be this:
Give us access to a new 1/1 passive that reads "Non-ability related stamina costs (dodging, break free, sprinting sneaking, blocking etc.) are taken from your magicka instead of stamina."

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

I dont agree with you when u say that stamina builds have more survivability. That is main problem . Magic builds have more survivability and in general higher damage output.
Testing done by Op is far from completed and conclusive - its just fragment of what it should be done in order to come to certain conclusions solely using test numbers - specially if we talk pvp. For example - wouldnt ever go out there in medium armor in order to try aoe with ww coz i would die in no time and in that case my nominal damage is irrelevant coz i am dead.

Phinix1

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Just to put it out there Magicka builds are FLAWED. Period. I don't believe the player base can even see it.

You have Magicka builds that DONT run out of Magicka. But you have to build for this. Not ALL Magicka builds have unlimited Magicka but then why would you play that way when there is NO draw back to having unlimited Magicka.

Stamina CAN run out of its resource. EVEN IF it was = in DPS to Magicka why wouldnt you choose an unlimited resource versus a limited one?????

Now some would say give Stamina the same options as Magicka. BUT WHY??

We have the resource bar for a REASON. But to have certain items and spells to give you access to your respective resource at an unlimited value just seems unwise as playing ANY OTHER WAY would be wrong and dumb. That doesn't fit well into play as you want.

Sorry but I have to disagree. I know what builds you are speaking of. They center around the Warlock set that returns Magicka once per minute when below 30% (about 730) and stacking magicka regen.

I have tried this and magicka is far from infinite. Also, you have to sacrifice a lot of other stats (no way you are capping spell power with a max regen set), and you won't have enough spell crit to EVER crit through people's impenetrable armor threshold.

I like the build for healing in PVE as I can throw Inner Light on my bar to help bring my crit back up to compensate, and built right it can be a viable survival build for PVP, but you definitely won't be bursting anybody down with it.

trimsic_ESO

@guybrushtb16_ESO‌

I agree for the risk you are referring to. However, I disagree when you say that stamina builds would have an access to magicka skills at 100% efficiency. This is going too far since a player with a stamina build is not wearing a light armor.

Said it differently, the type of the armor should play an important role in the efficiency of the skills, even more than today if we want to have some room for a better balance between stamina builds and magikca builds.

Stannum

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

lol. Stamina builds cannot dps as magika build and they also cannot defend as magika builds. Cause in magika build you use magika for atacking & stamina for blocking\evading and in stamina build you use stamina for atacking and blocking\evading so you'll be shot in stamina very quickly.
In PvP It will not matter how much can you block if you will not dps.

guybrushtb16_ESO

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@guybrushtb16_ESO‌

I agree for the risk you are referring to. However, I disagree when you say that stamina builds would have an access to magicka skills at 100% efficiency. This is going too far since a player with a stamina build is not wearing a light armor.

Said it differently, the type of the armor should play an important role in the efficiency of the skills, even more than today if we want to have some room for a better balance between stamina builds and magikca builds.

True, they couldn't spam magicka skills like a full magicka build could with the same amount of resources - but they wouldn't need to. They'd lose cost reduction, resource regeneration and spell piercing, but none of that really matters for pure dps if they can draw from their stamina for spamming.

If stamina builds had access to all magicka skills at full scaling, even at a higher cost/without penetration etc. they could cherry pick the best spells with relatively low drain on magicka. DKs for example could keep up full damage unstable flame and fiery breath, which are extremely resource efficient as dots and still hack away with their stamina pools.

That doesn't mean I disagree that armor types should be tied to magicka/stamina, it's just that the current system is all kinds of weird and wouldn't be enough of a hindrance to play anything but stamina/magicka hybrids should that change happen.

Galrukh

They probably need to redo the whole magicka vs stamina thing and rebuild it from the bottom up.
The fact is that magicka vastly outperforms stamina and the baby step approach takes such a long time to do that many stamina players will have quit the game by the time they fix this imbalance.

Its a big mess that has many components. That stamina is used for so many things screws over stamina users big time, that stamina users have no easy way of regaining stamina also screws them over big time and then there is the fact that the numbers difference between magicka abilities and stamina abilities is just so big that it makes no sense.
I doubt Cyrodiil will be anything but light armor/magicka builds for a long, long, long time to come and it will hurt the game in a big way because many people will quit over it.

Bad game design is bad game design.

Kego

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The fact is that magicka vastly outperforms stamina and the baby step approach takes such a long time to do that many stamina players will have quit the game by the time they fix this imbalance.

Vastly?
As I see it, Magicka deals ~ 1.000 and 1.300 DPS in Trails
Stamina deals ~800-1.000 DPS
That makes Magicka 20-25% stronger than Stamina Builds. (Yes, 2Handers cant get to 800-1000DPS but at least DW and Bows can achieve this)

Don't looks like a big deal, cause in other MMOs 20% difference isn't a big deal. It just seems so in ESO, cause anyone can play any build, outside of class skills used.

Their is no need for big changes, little tweaks every month are all that is needed to bring these ~25% down to ~10%, cause their will never be a 100% balance between both Ressources.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Kego wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The fact is that magicka vastly outperforms stamina and the baby step approach takes such a long time to do that many stamina players will have quit the game by the time they fix this imbalance.

Vastly?
As I see it, Magicka deals ~ 1.000 and 1.300 DPS in Trails
Stamina deals ~800-1.000 DPS
That makes Magicka 20-25% stronger than Stamina Builds. (Yes, 2Handers cant get to 800-1000DPS but at least DW and Bows can achieve this)

Don't looks like a big deal, cause in other MMOs 20% difference isn't a big deal. It just seems so in ESO, cause anyone can play any build, outside of class skills used.

Their is no need for big changes, little tweaks every month are all that is needed to bring these ~25% down to ~10%, cause their will never be a 100% balance between both Ressources.

Sorry, but in what world do you live that a 20% difference is not a big deal in mmos? For casuals this may be true, but in any kind of competitive environment this means nobody will ever touch the inferior spec with a 10 foot pole.

Shaun98ca2

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Just to put it out there Magicka builds are FLAWED. Period. I don't believe the player base can even see it.

You have Magicka builds that DONT run out of Magicka. But you have to build for this. Not ALL Magicka builds have unlimited Magicka but then why would you play that way when there is NO draw back to having unlimited Magicka.

Stamina CAN run out of its resource. EVEN IF it was = in DPS to Magicka why wouldnt you choose an unlimited resource versus a limited one?????

Now some would say give Stamina the same options as Magicka. BUT WHY??

We have the resource bar for a REASON. But to have certain items and spells to give you access to your respective resource at an unlimited value just seems unwise as playing ANY OTHER WAY would be wrong and dumb. That doesn't fit well into play as you want.

Sorry but I have to disagree. I know what builds you are speaking of. They center around the Warlock set that returns Magicka once per minute when below 30% (about 730) and stacking magicka regen.

I have tried this and magicka is far from infinite. Also, you have to sacrifice a lot of other stats (no way you are capping spell power with a max regen set), and you won't have enough spell crit to EVER crit through people's impenetrable armor threshold.

I like the build for healing in PVE as I can throw Inner Light on my bar to help bring my crit back up to compensate, and built right it can be a viable survival build for PVP, but you definitely won't be bursting anybody down with it.

And what about the 10% Magicka Return on the Restro Staff or the Magicka return from Dark Exchange/Equilibrium.

You combine those with the Warlock set and you DO have infinite Magicka easily.

You can pretty much do it with JUST the Restro Staff as I wear Heavy Armor and use a Restro for my Healing as a Templar. Occasionally I have to use this as my DPS because I simply don't run out of Magicka while keeping mobs away from while doing the best damage I can.

My Stamina build doesn't swing a weapon and get Stamina back and it SHOULDNT.

Magicka builds shouldn't be able to easily just whip out the Restro Staff and make their resource bar seamlessly limitless and neither should Stamina.

Cause so far Magicka builds mainly spam 1-5 rarely ever using their Light/Heavy Attacks.

My Stamina build relies on its Light/Heavy Attack way way more than my Magicka build.

My Stamina build is actually quite useful when it runs out of resource. My Magicka build just doesn't run out of resource cause I can gain it back VERY easily and it doesn't have all its points spent in Magicka making it essentially weaker.

Full blown Magicka builds get a LOT of Magicka back with the 10% from Restro Staff.......On my NON-full Magicka build its 1 spell per use......imagine what it is for full blown Magicka builds with LA what a spell and a half - 2 spells.

trimsic_ESO

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@guybrushtb16_ESO‌

I agree for the risk you are referring to. However, I disagree when you say that stamina builds would have an access to magicka skills at 100% efficiency. This is going too far since a player with a stamina build is not wearing a light armor.

Said it differently, the type of the armor should play an important role in the efficiency of the skills, even more than today if we want to have some room for a better balance between stamina builds and magikca builds.

If stamina builds had access to all magicka skills at full scaling, even at a higher cost/without penetration etc. they could cherry pick the best spells with relatively low drain on magicka. DKs for example could keep up full damage unstable flame and fiery breath, which are extremely resource efficient as dots and still hack away with their stamina pools.

I understand the risks. And what if the access to the class skills at full scale with stamina builds was depending on... the class skills themselves.

Let's me explain it a little bit. I would divide the class skills into three categories:
- Offensive class skills
- Support class skills
- Control class skills

The efficiency of offensive class skills would depend on the spell power and magicka pool, always.

The efficiency of control class skills would depend on the weapon power and stamina pool, always.

The efficiency of support class skills and ultimate skills would depend on the weapon power and stamina pool when equipping a physical weapon, and would depend on the spell power and magicka pool when equipping a magical weapon.

All the class skills would consume magicka resources.

Let's do the exercise for the DK class skills:

- Fiery Grip: control - physical
- Searing Strike: offensive - magical
- Fiery Breath: offensive - magical
- Lava Whip: offensive - magical
- Inferno: offensive - magical
- Dragon Knight standard: ultimate - hybrid

- Spiked Armor: support - hybrid
- Dark Talon: control - physical
- Dragon Blood: support - hybrid
- Reflective Scale: support - hybrid
- Inhale: offensive - magical
- Dragon Leap: ultimate - hybrid

- Stone Fist: control - physical
- Molten Weapons: support - hybrid
- Obsidian Shield: support - hybrid
- Petrify: control - physical
- Ash Cloud: control - physical
- Magma Armor: ultimate - hybrid

At the same time: light armor increases magical damage, intermediate armor increases physical damage, and heavy armor provides a good defense against both magical and physical attacks.