Superiority of magicka over stamina by numbers

trimsic_ESO

The numbers I'm reporting here are the result of 2 hours of fight in Cyrodiil in a raid guild. Two DK have participated to the test: one magicka DK and one stamina DK.

Stamina DK:
- Stamina: 2416
- Magicka: 1636
- Full legendary stuff - intermediate armor set
- Weapon power: over cap
- Class skill- average damage done with fragmented shield per hit: 110
- Physical skill- average damage done with tornado steel per hit: 290

Magicka DK:
- Stamina: 1589
- Magicka: 2419
- Full legendary stuff - light armor set
- Spell power: over cap
- Class skill- average damage done with fragmented shield per hit: 260
- Magical skill- average damage done with pulsar per hit: 380

Remark:
- In the same fight, the magicka DK can land 4 standards where the stamina DK can land only one standard.
- In the same fight, the magicka DK continues casting his spells while the stamina DK has depleted his stamina pool for quite some time.

I don't believe that the baby step approach currently in place to balance the game is the right approach for an obvious reason: the gap between magicka and stamina builds is so huge that it would take months before it's finally balanced. I'm not going to wait that long

tbrocato

Thanks for taking the time to put this together...results are basically what everyone has been saying. It would be interesting to see the results of a hybrid build. I am assuming it wold be the lowest but I wonder by how much...and if dps is close to a full stamina build the added flexibility being a hybrid may be the route to go...if light armor is not your style.

Junkogen

Yeah, the safe bet for awhile seems to be magicka-based builds. They've got a real mess on their hands with trying to balance this.

Tamanous

I don't get this. Steel Tornado doesn't do extra damage until mobs are under 50% and even then scales to higher numbers when their health lowers still. Are you testing ST on mobs above 50%? The skill is a finisher and that is not how one tests it.

You also have to test class skills that scale off of stamina. It is sort of a "No [snip] Sherlock" moment saying a skill that scales from magicka works better at higher magicka numbers.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Voodoo

Ya the baby step approach makes no sense to me. They can always bring it back a touch or two if they over shoot the mark. (No I don't believe players will freak out) as it would be an obvious over buff that's rein in quick.
With this baby step approach its going to take months, at least to balance out some of these skills/spells/classes/buffs,ect.

Phinix1

While I always respect the work of those that take the time to crunch the numbers, I think you need a larger sample. It looks like you have two good sets to test with, we just need to see results for skills that are more closely balanced mechanic-wise.

As others have said, you can't really compare Steel Tornado to Pulsar, as it has a goofy mechanic that ramps up its damage as the target loses health. This makes the skill incredibly weak as it only really starts doing comparable and only slightly better damage when the target is about to die.

I would compare something like Scatter Shot from Bow and Destructive Touch from Destro staff, which seem pretty close damage-wise at a baseline.

Shaun98ca2

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

Warriors aren't just tanks.

Their extra armor is used to try to get close to the wizard before they are burned to a crisp. Once they get close they should be able to cleave ol Gandalf in two.

Although strangely enough you seem to have contradicted yourself a bit. In the first instance you say that mages should be doing more damage than warriors but in the second you say it should all be about how they deal the damage (spike vs sustained).

I don't agree with the first half but I find myself agreeing very much with the second half, at least for a warrior character...a rogue type might be more spikey like a mage though as they traditionally rely on critical strikes.

Shaun98ca2

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

Warriors aren't just tanks.

Their extra armor is used to try to get close to the wizard before they are burned to a crisp. Once they get close they should be able to cleave ol Gandalf in two.

Although strangely enough you seem to have contradicted yourself a bit. In the first instance you say that mages should be doing more damage than warriors but in the second you say it should all be about how they deal the damage (spike vs sustained).

I don't agree with the first half but I find myself agreeing very much with the second half, at least for a warrior character...a rogue type might be more spikey like a mage though as they traditionally rely on critical strikes.

I never said their were I was TRYING to give examples people understand and are used to. We understand Tank and DPS as terms but NOT really why I used old analogies to show there IS a difference between Magicka and Stamina when comparing the 2.

Stamina has an innate increased survivability by that means alone Stamina and Magicka CANNOT be equal in terms of DPS.

A tank character is a tank due to increased survivability. We don't expect tanks to have the same DPS as a DPS character due to survivability.

So again we cant expect Stamina to be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS due to the innate increased survivability.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

Warriors aren't just tanks.

Their extra armor is used to try to get close to the wizard before they are burned to a crisp. Once they get close they should be able to cleave ol Gandalf in two.

Although strangely enough you seem to have contradicted yourself a bit. In the first instance you say that mages should be doing more damage than warriors but in the second you say it should all be about how they deal the damage (spike vs sustained).

I don't agree with the first half but I find myself agreeing very much with the second half, at least for a warrior character...a rogue type might be more spikey like a mage though as they traditionally rely on critical strikes.

I never said their were I was TRYING to give examples people understand and are used to. We understand Tank and DPS as terms but NOT really why I used old analogies to show there IS a difference between Magicka and Stamina when comparing the 2.

Stamina has an innate increased survivability by that means alone Stamina and Magicka CANNOT be equal in terms of DPS.

A tank character is a tank due to increased survivability. We don't expect tanks to have the same DPS as a DPS character due to survivability.

So again we cant expect Stamina to be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS due to the innate increased survivability.

I get what you're saying but isn't the inherent advantage of spell casters that they can unload from range, potentially killing a melee character before they get close enough to do damage?

I do get what you mean though, the armor that each character is wearing would be as much a determining factor of how long each can remain standing as the weapon damage. In your scenario once the warrior gets close enough they should be able to do significant damage on the caster as they are presumably wearing fairly light armor.

In PvE this is can be solved by modifying mob resistances so that melee dps can do equivalent damage. In PvP what you said makes perfect sense.

I think you are on the right track. I just think the numbers still need a fair bit of tweaking.

Shaun98ca2

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

Warriors aren't just tanks.

Their extra armor is used to try to get close to the wizard before they are burned to a crisp. Once they get close they should be able to cleave ol Gandalf in two.

Although strangely enough you seem to have contradicted yourself a bit. In the first instance you say that mages should be doing more damage than warriors but in the second you say it should all be about how they deal the damage (spike vs sustained).

I don't agree with the first half but I find myself agreeing very much with the second half, at least for a warrior character...a rogue type might be more spikey like a mage though as they traditionally rely on critical strikes.

I never said their were I was TRYING to give examples people understand and are used to. We understand Tank and DPS as terms but NOT really why I used old analogies to show there IS a difference between Magicka and Stamina when comparing the 2.

Stamina has an innate increased survivability by that means alone Stamina and Magicka CANNOT be equal in terms of DPS.

A tank character is a tank due to increased survivability. We don't expect tanks to have the same DPS as a DPS character due to survivability.

So again we cant expect Stamina to be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS due to the innate increased survivability.

I get what you're saying but isn't the inherent advantage of spell casters that they can unload from range, potentially killing a melee character before they get close enough to do damage?

I do get what you mean though, the armor that each character is wearing would be as much a determining factor of how long each can remain standing as the weapon damage. In your scenario once the warrior gets close enough they should be able to do significant damage on the caster as they are presumably wearing fairly light armor.

In PvE this is can be solved by modifying mob resistances so that melee dps can do equivalent damage. In PvP what you said makes perfect sense.

I think you are on the right track. I just think the numbers still need a fair bit of tweaking.

True and I believe this is why they gave all Stamina weapons closers and again you have the increased survivability.

Artis

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

You are wrong about increased survivability without looking at skills. Stamina users use the same pool for dealing DPS and for blocks/dodges. Therefore, they already sacrifice survivability when they DPS. So you can put a checkmark next to that point where you say that stamina builds should be able to increase etc etc. They are already able to. It's just that numbers are way lower.

tbrocato

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

Warriors aren't just tanks.

Their extra armor is used to try to get close to the wizard before they are burned to a crisp. Once they get close they should be able to cleave ol Gandalf in two.

Although strangely enough you seem to have contradicted yourself a bit. In the first instance you say that mages should be doing more damage than warriors but in the second you say it should all be about how they deal the damage (spike vs sustained).

I don't agree with the first half but I find myself agreeing very much with the second half, at least for a warrior character...a rogue type might be more spikey like a mage though as they traditionally rely on critical strikes.

I never said their were I was TRYING to give examples people understand and are used to. We understand Tank and DPS as terms but NOT really why I used old analogies to show there IS a difference between Magicka and Stamina when comparing the 2.

Stamina has an innate increased survivability by that means alone Stamina and Magicka CANNOT be equal in terms of DPS.

A tank character is a tank due to increased survivability. We don't expect tanks to have the same DPS as a DPS character due to survivability.

So again we cant expect Stamina to be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS due to the innate increased survivability.

You really can't say a stamina based build has "increased survivability" when you constantly pull from the same resource for damage. Where as a magicka based build mainly pulls from stamina for survivability...along with their pretty good passives from light armor.

Shaun98ca2

Artemis wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

You are wrong about increased survivability without looking at skills. Stamina users use the same pool for dealing DPS and for blocks/dodges. Therefore, they already sacrifice survivability when they DPS. So you can put a checkmark next to that point where you say that stamina builds should be able to increase etc etc. They are already able to. It's just that numbers are way lower.

This is correct you do have to share your pool for survivability with your DPS skills.

Lets use imaginary numbers.

Magicka users gets 4 blocks/dodges per fight .

Stamina users get 8 blocks/dodges per fight PLUS still enough Stamina to kill enemy PLUS Magicka abilities to Kill enemy PLUS increased Light/Heavy Attacks to choose from.

A Stamina users gets more potential options for producing damage versus that of say a Magicka user that runs out of Magicka(lets pretend that can actually happen to a Magicka user).

IF Magicka users run out of Magicka...Stamina users simply have MORE options for DPS that's BETTER than that of a OOM Magicka user.

But since Magicka users DONT run out of Magicka...which by the way you have wear certain gear and use certain abilities for......the system is imbalanced.

HOW WELL does your Magicka user fair without ANY Magicka gain?????

Well that's just dumb not to use the Magicka gain......correct and if it wasn't there to be used the balance would be seen MUCH MUCH more clearly.

tbrocato

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

You are wrong about increased survivability without looking at skills. Stamina users use the same pool for dealing DPS and for blocks/dodges. Therefore, they already sacrifice survivability when they DPS. So you can put a checkmark next to that point where you say that stamina builds should be able to increase etc etc. They are already able to. It's just that numbers are way lower.

This is correct you do have to share your pool for survivability with your DPS skills.

Lets use imaginary numbers.

Magicka users gets 4 blocks/dodges per fight .

Stamina users get 8 blocks/dodges per fight PLUS still enough Stamina to kill enemy PLUS Magicka abilities to Kill enemy PLUS increased Light/Heavy Attacks to choose from.

A Stamina users gets more potential options for producing damage versus that of say a Magicka user that runs out of Magicka(lets pretend that can actually happen to a Magicka user).

IF Magicka users run out of Magicka...Stamina users simply have MORE options for DPS that's BETTER than that of a OOM Magicka user.

But since Magicka users DONT run out of Magicka...which by the way you have wear certain gear and use certain abilities for......the system is imbalanced.

HOW WELL does your Magicka user fair without ANY Magicka gain?????

Well that's just dumb not to use the Magicka gain......correct and if it wasn't there to be used the balance would be seen MUCH MUCH more clearly.

Imaginary numbers never work out well for a discussion. "say a Magicka user that runs out of Magicka (lets pretend that can actually happen to a Magicka user)." lol.

Artis

Stamina users get 8 blocks/dodges per fight PLUS still enough Stamina to kill enemy

Just did 8 roll dodges. Right now. Just to check. I have 443 stamina left after them. Now please, how do I kill an enemy with that much? In turn, magicka users survive by using skills and heals. They have greater damage AND greater survivability at the same time. Is that how it's supposed to be?

PLUS Magicka abilities to Kill enemy PLUS increased Light/Heavy Attacks to choose from.

Enough magicka to cast spells a few times and that's it. Spells are much weaker than in magicka builds. Weapon damage is not scaled enough. It is ridiculously low.

IF Magicka users run out of Magicka...Stamina users simply have MORE options for DPS that's BETTER than that of a OOM Magicka user.

They never do. Even if they do, why do you just throw words? Show us numbers and how much weapon attacks of stamina users are greater than those of magicka users.

HOW WELL does your Magicka user fair without ANY Magicka gain?????

I wish I knew. Have you ever seen one?

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO

Artemis wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well comparing Magicka and Stamina is like comparing a Warrior/ Tank to a Wizard/DPS.

You don't expect the Warrior to put out the same DPS as a Wizard due to the warriors increased survivability. The Wizard you don't except to have the same survivability due to their increased DPS.

Stamina without even looking at the abilities has increased survivability due to the increased usages of block and dodge.

This alone to me says that Stamina SHOULDNT be equal to Magicka in terms of DPS simply because of the increased survivability.

Now I understand that light armor can increase survivability by increasing physical and magical resistances but this SHOULD be at the cost of DPS.

Stamina builds SHOULD be able to increase their DPS while decreasing their survivability but in the current state that's VERY hard to balance....ESPECIALLY now with the new changes to Medium Armor.

Taking this into consideration balancing Stamina and Magicka becomes tricky due to the fact that both still have access to the opposite resource pool.

In a battle of DPS Stamina should be able to outlast Magicka when it comes to simply KEEPING decent numbers versus Magicka spiking high on DPS them OOMing. BIGGEST issue is Magicka NEVER OOM unless your simply not using all the Magicka gain available.

________________________________________________________________________________

This being said im under FULL belief of 2 VERY equal character or Ranged vs Melee that Melee SHOULD have slightly higher DPS considering BOTH characters have equal survivability. This is due to melee being in a riskier situation + the slight difficulty of simply staying in range of your target.

This is just a personal belief but shouldn't really factor in.

You are wrong about increased survivability without looking at skills. Stamina users use the same pool for dealing DPS and for blocks/dodges. Therefore, they already sacrifice survivability when they DPS. So you can put a checkmark next to that point where you say that stamina builds should be able to increase etc etc. They are already able to. It's just that numbers are way lower.

This.
An example with easy numbers:
Magicka user: 2000m 1000s
Stamina user: 1000m 2000s

While the magicka user can dps with all of his magicka and use the stamina for cc break or block, the stamina user has to use his resource for both.

Now its possible to say the stamina user could also use his magicka for defense, but imo block and cc break is much more important.

Ok block can be switched with a ward, but for anti cc there is only immovable which costs stamina.

Last but not least there is sneaking which also lets you start your fights with less stamina.

Pots arent the answer as you know there are also magicka pots.

When playing my stamina toons I often end up with low stamina and unable to blovk or break cc (yeah I know I should be more careful with my resources but doing no damage isnt the answer) while on my magicka toon I can use all my resources for damage and defense and dont have to watch out for stamina.

Imho balancing is impossible because of the fact that you sometimes need stamina for something other which would make stamina op if they would balance it to: stamina for dps+ccbreak/block/sneak=magicka because of: stamina for dps without ccbreak/block/sneak > magicka

Sharee

Tamanous wrote: »

You also have to test class skills that scale off of stamina.

As far as i know, all class skills scale off of magicka.

Shaun98ca2

You also have to factor in what im saying IS the imbalance when checking things.........Magicka gain.

Take ALL Magicka users and see how well they par without Magicka gain versus a Stamina user.

YES I know its hard to picture playing that way as the character starts to plummet in usefulness but isn't there were a Stamina user is as of now?

trimsic_ESO

I agree with @Sharee‌

I also feel like the effectiveness of all the class skills depends on magicka or / and spell power. But the question is why?

I've read some people arguing that the stamina pool was never designed as a mean to deal damage, at least not as a primary source of damage. But then why is the game proposing 4 weapon skill trees based on stamina: one hand and a shield, dual wield, two handed, and bow? It's like saying: OK, you can get a 2 handed weapon if you want to, but in order to have a viable build, you should consider using a destruction staff instead.

At least in the short term, I would expect the following change:

The effectiveness of every class skill should increase either with the magicka pool and spell power or with the stamina pool and weapon power, depending on what is the best scenario for the player.

Same for all the ultimate abilities. This is not a big change, but a required change for all the players who want to play ESO as a warrior and not as a mage, or even worse: be the clone of everybody else in the game.

Edit: this can only be a temporary change. A complete redesign of the combat skills and gameplay is required.

Tamanous

Sharee wrote: »

Tamanous wrote: »

You also have to test class skills that scale off of stamina.

As far as i know, all class skills scale off of magicka.

Correct I believe too but I what I meant did not match what I said. My mistake. I was referring to class abilities that use weapon crit and go against armor vs spell crit and go against spell resistance. I have not idea what fragmented shield shield uses or goes against to be honest other than what has been rumored without confirmation.

guybrushtb16_ESO

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

At least in the short term, I would expect the following change:

The effectiveness of every class skill should increase either with the magicka pool and spell power or with the stamina pool and weapon power, depending on what is the best scenario for the player.

Same for all the ultimate abilities. This is not a big change, but a required change for all the players who want to play ESO as a warrior and not as a mage, or even worse: be the clone of everybody else in the game.

Edit: this can only be a temporary change. A complete redesign of the combat skills and gameplay is required.

I know where you are coming from with this, but this change alone wouldn't be a solution at all. What would happen after this change is that every competitive pve build would have to stack stamina + weapon power in order to be effective, because only then could they use their entire stamina and magicka pools for damage at 100% efficiency.

I know stamina needs a buff, but this can't be it.

Ninnghizhidda

It is always good to see some real numbers, although I will agree to a point that the choice of skills used is not perfect for comparison. On the other hand there is a pretty clear indication of how the "warrior" suffers compared to the "mage".

Furthermore, since people are arguing a bit about the fact that a "warrior" would have "increased survivability", hence dps should be lower than a "mage", we tend to forget something quite important.

In ESO, "tanks", or in general melee / physical type fighters can differ substantially to the "archetype". Meaning, they do not necessarily use the heavier armours, they do not necessarily have that higher / ultra high physical toughness / prowess, compared to an "archetypal mage".

It is well known that "mages" do fine as "tanks" or even adopting the role of a melee fighter, if they wish to, while still using dresses / light armour (which should provide very little physical protection) and while still relying heavily on magicka, rather than toughness / ultra high health etc.

So, the argument, that "mages" are typical "glass canons" that absolutely must deal 10 times more dps while they die 10 times faster, compared to a "toughie warrior", is really not valid at all, at least here in ESO.

We should also add the (sad) fact that everyone can use block (how on Earth this would be even possible with a variety of weapons, only ESO devs know), and we know that blocking is quite a useful tool and probably a life saver. Especially when, at the same time, you can merrily bombard everything around with an array of powerful spells.

Adding these together, the whole argument about "increased warrior toughness", hence lower dps capability, versus "glass cannon mage", hence much higher dps output, simply goes walkies.

There can be endless discussions, as there have already been, about this particular and the other and the next. One fact remains though, and in the end can be supported by numbers too. In ESO "mages" do better (in fact a lot better in many cases) than "warriors", they survive better, they dps better, they can even tank better.

This is the current situation 5 months after release, and several months through Betas before that. And from what it seems, for several months to follow. In my own eyes, this indeed is taking way too long to "address and fix and balance". Unless there is this weird "fixation" on "mages", hence... "Elder Spellcasters (Mages) Online", ah well, I don't want to start on that one yet again.

CapuchinSeven

I'm just not buying that you lose survivability with stamina builds, in full medium armour my stamina build has a ton of dodge rolls. In PVP at least my stamina build is very capable of staying alive.

While I totally acknowledge issues with stamina builds I'm starting think many of you posting just simply having tried a REAL stamina build, like a full on soft capped weapon damage, soft capped stamina, stamina regen soft capped, full 7 medium with a stamina restoring ability like Siphoning Attacks or Dragon Blood slotted, stamina build.

Some of what you're saying just doesn't match up to reality and I think some of you at least; are just repeating what you hear others say.

Again because people just grab one little part of a post on these boards, I'm not saying stamina doesn't have problems but in PVP at least my stamina build is very very survivable, that's melee and ranged.

My stamina build gets a ton of dodges but maybe 2 dark cloaks.
My magic build gets a ton of dark clocks but maybe 2 dodges.

The issues with PVE is that it's impossible to run out of magic in a raid setting because of mage guild skills. And that's the real issue, that's the issue that creates the huge imbalance, if that was dealt with then most of the problems would be about simple damage adjusting, both up and down.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

I've read some people arguing that the stamina pool was never designed as a mean to deal damage, at least not as a primary source of damage. But then why is the game proposing 4 weapon skill trees based on stamina...

You're missing the point somewhat, it's not that they are not meant to do damage, but to rely totally on stamina attacks to do your damage was clearly never intended. You can base your main attacks on weapon attacks (both my melee and ranged stamina build does, my melee build will put down over 800-900DPS constantly) but you're still going to have to fall back to magic either for utility or to keep your damage running.

They are there to even out builds, if you need a gap closer or a finisher, slot a 2H into your build, if you're a DK and you need a ranged attack then take a bow or a Destro staff.

Ultimately, there are no good stamina builds, just hybrid builds.

I'm not saying I agree it should be this way, or that it's how I want it, but that is pretty clear what they intended for us.

Phinix1

PVP isn't just about avoiding damage. It is about RESTORING lost damage. That is sustainability. That is where specifically Nightblade stamina builds fall short.

Sure you can dodge roll, but that is eating your offensive resource. That means the more you dodge to compensate for having no innate defensive and restorative abilities, the less you will be able to EVER turn around and actually FIGHT.

A build with healing and mitigation can throw up shields and a hot for less than it costs a stamina build to dodge roll, WHILE they are attacking, and those abilities actually restore lost health, not just avoid new damage. Plus, since they don't use it for anything else, they can dodge a bit as well.

I mean a soft capped stamina build only has like 900 more stamina than someone with no points or gear that buffs stamina.

The entire archetype of stamina builds is to get in and bash face before the enemy focuses you. If you spend too much time dodging around to compensate for having no meaningful self heals, at least as a stamina Nightblade, the inevitable outcome is your death.

Furthermore, a diminished health bar is like a big neon "focus fire" sign in PVP. The more time you spend dodging around with a lower health bar, the more damage you will start to take.

It is an exponential cascade towards inevitable failure.

Other classes or magicka builds could just pop Green Dragon Blood of triple shield heal themselves. Stamina has to "stand and deliver," through rain or sleet or mages that see front-line stamina builds as easy pickings.

They have improved things somewhat by giving stamina builds more stamina regeneration, and making their abilities somewhat more "bursty," but that isn't going to be competitive if your health bar remains in execute range of every class and weapon ability out there.

Again, it is mostly stamina Nightblades that suffer this lack of meaningful self heals.

At least as a Nightblade you can cloak when the going gets bad and try to find a safe spot to wait for your potion to come off cooldown. Problem with that is the cloak is unreliable and breaks on damage to the enemy you were attacking quite frequently.

Artis

I don't understand one thing... They know about the issue... Why not just change numbers every week. Why not increase them little by little and see when they approach to the point when people complain less.

No, instead nothing has been done in 3 months

Shaun98ca2

They could do that but by the time the player base notices its "better" or "balanced" they will have tweaked the number TOO much and it will be outta whack again.

MAYBE the developers just are certain HOW to properly fix it.

I know the player base sure hasn't come together on a single answer and its probably the same way internally.

Shaun98ca2

Just to put it out there Magicka builds are FLAWED. Period. I don't believe the player base can even see it.

You have Magicka builds that DONT run out of Magicka. But you have to build for this. Not ALL Magicka builds have unlimited Magicka but then why would you play that way when there is NO draw back to having unlimited Magicka.

Stamina CAN run out of its resource. EVEN IF it was = in DPS to Magicka why wouldnt you choose an unlimited resource versus a limited one?????

Now some would say give Stamina the same options as Magicka. BUT WHY??

We have the resource bar for a REASON. But to have certain items and spells to give you access to your respective resource at an unlimited value just seems unwise as playing ANY OTHER WAY would be wrong and dumb. That doesn't fit well into play as you want.

Artis

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

They could do that but by the time the player base notices its "better" or "balanced" they will have tweaked the number TOO much and it will be outta whack again.

MAYBE the developers just are certain HOW to properly fix it.

I know the player base sure hasn't come together on a single answer and its probably the same way internally.

So that means they shouldn't fix it at all? If they don't know how to fix it, okay then. Make stamina OP for some time now. That's only fair.

trimsic_ESO

@CapuchinSeven‌

The stamina weapon skill trees can't be a decent solution to even builds. May be they can, as long as we are leveling up our character, to some extents. But honestly they can't be a decent solution to even builds in Cyrodiil, for two reasons:
- hybrid builds are not as effective as magicka builds
- using caltrops or a rapid maneuver or even dodging or blocking will always be a smarter choice than switching to a 2H weapon to deal a finisher blow, especially in a mass combat

Actually, hybrid builds are not viable, and stamina builds are not viable either.


@guybrushtb16_ESO‌
I guest you are questioning the utility of a stamina pool for a magicka player if the proposal I made was implemented. Yes, you are right; but to be honest, what is the difference compared to the current situation?

A magicka player can replenish his magicka pool quite easily; having to use some stamina from time to time to dodge an AoE attack is exactly what the stamina pool is intended for.

Now, if I can have a viable stamina build as I suggested in my post, I could use some magicka as a mean to either deal damage or to have a better sustainability in combat. If I had to choose the damage option, keep in mind that I'm not wearing a light armor, and therefore I would not be as effective as with my weapon attacks, which are much more effective owing to the passive abilities of my intermediate armor. Using my magicka in order to increase my sustainability in combat would then be a smarter choice.


In a first place, I thought that the spell penetration nerf proposed in the 1.4 patch was a smart move. But actually it's not. The light armor shall remain a mean for magicka player to deal damage. And the intermediate armor should be a mean for stamina player to deal damage (we need a buff here).

The right move would have been to completely remove the spell resistance of the light armor, turning the spell casters into a glass canon archetype, with two main advantages:
1) In a zerg ball, magicka players would annihilate each other.
2) The light armor would no longer be the only choice to have some sustainability in Cyrodiil.

And of course, the proposal I made would make sense:

The effectiveness of every class skill should increase either with the magicka pool and spell power or with the stamina pool and weapon power, depending on what is the best scenario for the player.

Or, even more simple:
- When equipping a 2 handed, a dual wield, a one hand and a shield, or a bow, the effectiveness of the class skills should increase with the stamina pool and weapon power
- When equipping a destruction staff or a restoration staff, the effectiveness of the class skills should increase with the magicka pool and spell power.

tbrocato

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

They could do that but by the time the player base notices its "better" or "balanced" they will have tweaked the number TOO much and it will be outta whack again.

MAYBE the developers just are not certain HOW to properly fix it.

I know the player base sure hasn't come together on a single answer and its probably the same way internally.

THE bold / italic QUOTE is DEAD on BRO...IMO!!!!!!!!!!!!