Discussion: Two Handed Skill Line

Najarati

Hey, everyone. After playing around with the two-handed weapon line for a bit and both hearing and reading the concerns from other players and guild members I wanted to suggest a few improvements to the line as a whole. The goal is to improve the general attractiveness of the line and to make its skills more useful and, in some cases, more powerful.

I’ll be breaking up this post into two parts: Active Skills and Passive Skills. Constructive feedback and alternative solutions are always appreciated.

UPDATED per reader feedback.

Part One – The Active Skills

Cleave
Increase damage by 10%. Reduce cost by 10%. This affects all morphs.

Cleave (Brawler)
Unmodified

Cleave (Carve)
Unmodified

Critical Charge
Unmodified

Critical Charge (Stampede)
Player charges to target and attacks, dealing x Physical Damage. Always deals Critical Damage. Any casting enemies moved through are interrupted and stunned for y seconds.

New Effect: Interrupts spells, putting casters off balance.

Critical Charge (Hammer Down)
Player charges to target and attacks, dealing x Physical Damage. Always deals Critical Damage. Affected target is immobilized for 4 seconds and its damage reduced y% for 6 seconds.

New Effects: Adds immobilize and damage reduction.

Uppercut
Reduce cast and animation time to 0.5 seconds. This affects all morphs.

Uppercut (Wall Breaker)
Deals x Physical Damage to target, stuns for 3.5 seconds and knocks back 4 meters. If affected target is immune to crowd control effects target takes additional y% damage.

New Effect: Adds additional damage to crowd control-immune targets.

Uppercut (Disembowel)
Deals x Physical Damage to target, stuns for 3.5 seconds and knocks back 4 meters. Affected target has incoming healing reduced by y% and magicka, stamina, and health regeneration are reduced to 0 for 4 seconds.

New Effects: Adds healing and regeneration reduction

Reverse Slash
Unmodified

Reverse Slash (Executioner)
Unmodified

Reverse Slash (Avalanche)
Deals x Physical Damage, with damage increasing based on target's Health loss, to a maximum of 300%. Two nearby enemies, if affected, take y% of the damage inflicted and are dazed with a 25% chance to miss attacks for 4 seconds.

Added Effects: Deals splash damage to 2 nearby enemies, causes chance to miss

Momentum
Unmodified

Momentum (Forward Momentum)
Increases Weapon Damage by 10% for x seconds, and an additional 2% every 2 seconds. When activated, player is immune to snares for 4 seconds. Afterwards, snare effectiveness is still reduced by y% until the effect ends.

New Effects: Snare immunity, reduced snare effects

Momentum (Rally)
Increases Weapon Damage by 10% for x seconds, and an additional 2% every 2 seconds. Healing received increases by y% for the duration and nearby allies are healed for 5% of player’s maximum health upon activation.

New Effects: Ally heal, increased healing received

EDIT: Fixed some of the variable names; clarity; updates

Zheg

While I can certainly appreciate the desire to throw out new ideas to better this (lacking) skill line, I'm going to vehemently disagree with the Critical Charge (Stampede) morph changes you've suggested. Being able to stun people you pass through will turn this into another Streak-fest in pvp, but now give current streakers an additional resource pool to 'streak' through, and give the other three classes the ability to streak.

PVP is already bats and streak, bats and streak.

I find the morph suggestion for uppercut where CC immune characters take more damage to be intriguing, though I think the better fix for devs to make is for them to redesign things so that Immovable isn't so darn good for all armor types, and almost a necessity for pvp.

AshySamurai

Pretty nice, but Avalanche - imba. You stun 2 enemies. So you hit target twice and stun 4. In PvP that will be OP. But others are pretty cool buff to 2H.

Brizz

Zheg wrote: »

While I can certainly appreciate the desire to throw out new ideas to better this (lacking) skill line, I'm going to vehemently disagree with the Critical Charge (Stampede) morph changes you've suggested. Being able to stun people you pass through will turn this into another Streak-fest in pvp, but now give current streakers an additional resource pool to 'streak' through, and give the other three classes the ability to streak.

PVP is already bats and streak, bats and streak.

I find the morph suggestion for uppercut where CC immune characters take more damage to be intriguing, though I think the better fix for devs to make is for them to redesign things so that Immovable isn't so darn good for all armor types, and almost a necessity for pvp.

The Stampede he suggested stuns casting targets only, making it more like Venom arrow. This ability would take some skill and timing to use effectively.

All in all I think this is a great post and well thought out. The 2 handed skill line is very lacking and I would love for it to be viable in pvp and pve.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO

So... a high damage gap closer, with a linear AoE interrupt/stun on casting targets, and 100% critical chance? While we're at it, why don't we tripple the damage of venom arrow and have it interrupt/stun casting targets the arrow flies through.

Sounds fun and awesome but imbalanced. Weapon abilities need buffs but this is not how to go about it. Skill functions are fine, all stamina based weapon skills just need a 15-20% increased scaling from stamina/weapon dmg.

2H is fine in PvP. The only problem is with sustained dps in PvE.

Najarati

Okay, time for some replies before moving forward:

AshySamurai wrote: »

Pretty nice, but Avalanche - imba. You stun 2 enemies. So you hit target twice and stun 4. In PvP that will be OP. But others are pretty cool buff to 2H.

This is potentially powerful, yes, but consider this: Templars already have a skill which functions similarly called Blazing Spear. It deals damage in a small area, provides a potential stamina buff if an ally picks up the spear, and stuns one target for 2 seconds. Mind you, this ability has a 25 meter range.

By comparison, Avalanche requires you to be close (melee range) and both its primary and secondary targets can block the attack. In exchange for this limitation, you can potentially deal more damage and stun (knock down) two nearby targets. Because this is a weapon skill, it also subtracts from the always-useful stamina pool. All of this is my justification for the above. What would you suggest, instead?

Brizz wrote: »

The Stampede he suggested stuns casting targets only, making it more like Venom arrow. This ability would take some skill and timing to use effectively.

Precisely. And while it could be considered the "warrior's Streak," it doesn't quite function the same. It's not a guaranteed effect like the disorient on Streak.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

So... a high damage gap closer, with a linear AoE interrupt/stun on casting targets, and 100% critical chance? While we're at it, why don't we tripple the damage of venom arrow and have it interrupt/stun casting targets the arrow flies through.

Sounds fun and awesome but imbalanced. Weapon abilities need buffs but this is not how to go about it. Skill functions are fine, all stamina based weapon skills just need a 15-20% increased scaling from stamina/weapon dmg.

2H is fine in PvP. The only problem is with sustained dps in PvE.

Now, now. Hyperbole is rarely useful feedback.

Do realize I actually reduced the potential damage of Critical Charge as a whole because Critical Charge (Critical Rush) no longer exists as a morph option in my version. If you recall, Critical Rush adds bonus damage to the attack based on the distance traveled.

In exchange, the new "Critical Rush" gains more utility. I also changed the name to Stampede since it makes more sense, thematically, than our current Stampede (which I changed to Hammer Down and modified slightly).

I agree with you on the sustained damage in PvE, and Uppercut (Wall Breaker) is meant to help with that. Since most bosses are immune to crowd-control effects the attack instead does more damage when it cannot knock the enemy back. Those of you who played Champions Online might recognize this mechanic from the Might framework. Wall Breaker is your "spam skill."

EDIT: Spelling fixes; clarity

Armitas

Wow these are really good.

*The descriptions and names are immediately exciting.
*You are injecting utility into the line, which is needed due to the loss of magicka to run class utilities.
*I see a lot of points of strategy for PvP.
*I see some group buffs making a 2h build possibly welcome to a group.
*I see a good dps increase with uppercut cast time.

The only thing I think could be better is the snare effect removal for momentum. With a gap closer like critical charge a snare doesn't really matter unless you are retreating. This would be better if it was a group effect or simply replaced with something entirely different.

purple-magicb16_ESO

How 'bout this: cleave/carve. pc spins doing a 360° wide slash and deals damage to all nearby enemies not just those in front of him. Could be included as a morph. Like? No?

Najarati

Armitas wrote: »

Wow these are really good.

*The descriptions and names are immediately exciting.
*You are injecting utility into the line, which is needed due to the loss of magicka to run class utilities.
*I see a lot of points of strategy for PvP.
*I see some group buffs making a 2h build possibly welcome to a group.
*I see a good dps increase with uppercut cast time.

The only thing I think could be better is the snare effect removal for momentum. With a gap closer like critical charge a snare doesn't really matter unless you are retreating. This would be better if it was a group effect or simply replaced with something entirely different.

I'm glad you like the suggestions. As for Forward Momentum, any kind of group-wide freedom-of-movement buff is very powerful in PvP so I'm hesitant to add such a benefit to a skill which is not only widely available, but cheap in cost when compared to an ability like Rapid Maneuver.

Would immunity to snares and roots for 4 seconds followed by a reduction in snare and root effectiveness for the duration make the ability more attractive? Bear in mind, if coupled with Immovable you'd have someone who, for 4 seconds (and a decent cost in stamina), could not be locked down at all. This might be too good in practice.

Armitas

I haven't used critical charge in a few months. iirc it will not work when you are rooted so that would be attractive.

Resueht

As an avid 2H user I like most of these suggestions. I don't know how I feel about taking out Critical Rush since I use that as an important part of my build.

Also, maybe change one of the morphs in uppercut or reverse slash to break shield? I feel like a 2H weapon should have some kind of shield break mechanic with some cast time involved.

Looking forward to Part 2!

Najarati

Next up are the passive skills. Honestly, I don’t think too much work is needed here, though broken passives really should be fixed (Arcane Fighter!).

The two biggest standouts in need of work (in my opinion) are Heavy Weapons and Battle Rush. The former just didn't give much of a reason to use anything other than two-handed swords (flavor reasons notwithstanding) and the latter, while nice, was fairly specific for a final passive skill.

I tried to create a little more variety with Heavy Weapons and to make the reworked Battle Rush, called Onslaught, reward the user for battering the tar out of your enemy with basic attacks.

Bear in the mind, the values for these passives would be small. They’re the icing, not the cake.

Part Two – The Passive Skills

Forceful
Unmodified

Heavy Weapons
Two-Hand Axe: Attacks bleed for x Physical Damage over 10 seconds. Reduces target’s critical resistance by x% for 4 seconds. Can only occur once every 10 seconds.

Two-Hand Mace: Attacks ignore x armor. Blocking targets mitigate y% less damage and blocking costs z% more.

Two-Hand Sword: Attacks deals x% additional damage. Light and heavy attack speed increased by y%.

Balanced Blade
Unmodified

Arcane Fighter
Unmodified

Onslaught
Light and heavy attacks increase the damage of the next light or heavy attack against the same target by x% for 6 seconds, stacking up to a maximum of y% damage. Killing the target increases Stamina regeneration by z% for 10 seconds.

EDIT: Formatting

Khivas_Carrick

Najarati wrote: »

Hey, everyone. After playing around with the two-handed weapon line for a bit and both hearing and reading the concerns from other players and guild members I wanted to suggest a few improvements to the line as a whole. The goal is to improve the general attractiveness of the line and to make its skills more useful and, in some cases, more powerful.

I’ll be breaking up this post into two parts: Active Skills and Passive Skills. Constructive feedback and alternative solutions are always appreciated.

Part One – The Active Skills

Cleave
Increase damage by 10%. Reduce cost by 10%. This affects all morphs.
Does this include the bleed damage as well?

Cleave (Brawler)
Unmodified

Cleave (Carve)
Unmodified

Critical Charge
Unmodified

Critical Charge (Stampede)
Player charges to target and attacks, dealing x Physical Damage. Always deals Critical Damage. Any casting enemies moved through are interrupted and stunned for y seconds.
Got my vote.

New Effect: Interrupts spells, putting casters off balance.

Critical Charge (Hammer Down)
Player charges to target and attacks, dealing x Physical Damage. Always deals Critical Damage. Affected target is immobilized for 4 seconds and its damage reduced y% for 6 seconds.
Decent for grouping support or PvP.

New Effects: Adds immobilize and damage reduction.

Uppercut
Reduce cast and animation time to 0.5 seconds. This affects all morphs.
Still think this move should be instant cast.

Uppercut (Wall Breaker)
Deals x Physical Damage to target, stuns for 3.5 seconds and knocks back 4 meters. If affected target is immune to crowd control effects target takes additional y% damage.
I'd say 15% with 1% increase per rank sounds fair, especially if it's a casted ability.

New Effect: Adds additional damage to crowd control-immune targets.

Uppercut (Disembowel)
Deals x Physical Damage to target, stuns for 3.5 seconds and knocks back 4 meters. Affected target has incoming healing reduced by y% and magicka, stamina, and health regeneration are reduced to 0 for 4 seconds.
Chyea? CHYEA!

New Effects: Adds healing and regeneration reduction

Reverse Slash
Unmodified

Reverse Slash (Executioner)
Unmodified
Add in an increase to damage if the enemy is blocking.

Reverse Slash (Avalanche)
Deals x Physical Damage, with damage increasing based on target's Health loss, to a maximum of 300%. Two nearby enemies take y% of damage inflicted and are stunned (knocked down) for 2 seconds.
Somebody said that Blazing Spear is slightly better/has longer range. Blazing Spear is borderline melee due to the odd aiming using this game's combat system. Second, Blazing Spear stuns only one enemy and unleashes an AoE with a party support synergy. My advice to make Avalanche comparable would be to simply increase it's base damage and have it leave a bleed effect on the enemy.

Momentum
Unmodified

Momentum (Forward Momentum)
Increases Weapon Damage by 10% for x seconds, and an additional 2% every 2 seconds. When activated, player is immune to snares for 4 seconds. Afterwards, snare effectiveness is still reduced by y% until the effect adds.
Bootyful.

New Effects: Snare immunity, reduced snare effects

Momentum (Rally)
Increases Weapon Damage by 10% for x seconds, and an additional 2% every 2 seconds. Healing received increases by y% for the duration and nearby allies are healed for 5% of player’s maximum health upon activation.
REALLY BOOTYFUL. This will make people want to take 2H for the sheer support ability when mixed with other Templar's alone. However I'd keep the heal to the user as well when the duration ends, or even have it heal both the user and it's allies at the beginning.

New Effects: Ally heal, increased healing received

EDIT: Fixed some of the variable names; clarity

Najarati wrote: »

Next up are the passive skills. Honestly, I don’t think too much work is needed here, though broken passives really should be fixed (Arcane Fighter!).

The two biggest standouts in need of work (in my opinion) are Heavy Weapons and Battle Rush. The former just didn't give much of a reason to use anything other than two-handed swords (flavor reasons notwithstanding) and the latter, while nice, was fairly specific for a final passive skill.

I tried to create a little more variety with Heavy Weapons and to make the reworked Battle Rush, called Onslaught, reward the user for battering the tar out of your enemy with basic attacks.

Bear in the mind, the values for these passives would be small. They’re the icing, not the cake.

Part Two – The Passive Skills

Forceful
Unmodified
I say increase the damage done to make it more impactful and meaningful. Say 5% increase on both ends.

Heavy Weapons
Two-Hand Axe: Attacks bleed for x Physical Damage over 10 seconds. Reduces target’s critical resistance by x% for 4 seconds. Can only occur once every 10 seconds.
The bleed needs to be a non-static scaling effect, and the Critical Resistance can be a Static 2/4 or 4/8%. That'd make it attractive to wield axes again.

Two-Hand Mace: Attacks ignore x armor. Blocking targets mitigate y% less damage and blocking costs z% more.
Again, armor ignore needs to be non-static scaling, but the blocking can be static as to avoid being overpowered and broken, say 5/10%.

Two-Hand Sword: Attacks deals x% additional damage. Light and heavy attack speed increased by y%.
This is the tricky but fun part. The others had to be scaling in order to keep them competitive, but here with the Two Handed Sword portion of this skill we need that it increases all damage by a Percentage, which means it pretty much Auto Scales itself. My advice in this case to make it more attractive would be to make it increase all forms of damage, not just sword based ones, but that'd be OP and clearly better than the other two, so we'll leave it at melee only. The attack speed can easily be static, but instead of a small amount like 5/10, I'd much rather see a larger amount to really show where the strength of wielding a sword is over a heavier weapon: It's swing speed. Make it 10/20% increased attack speed which stacks with Medium Armor and the Weighted Trait, and you'll have something golden here I think.

Balanced Blade
Unmodified

Arcane Fighter
Unmodified
I'd have it make it so that it either lowers the cooldown on Weapon Enchants or removes it entirely. That'd go a long way to increasing our PvE Sustainable DPS. Or rather do weapon enchants have Cooldowns? That part actually never got properly explained to me.

Onslaught
Light and heavy attacks increase the damage of the next light or heavy attack against the same target by x% for 6 seconds, stacking up to a maximum of y% damage. Killing the target increases Stamina regeneration by z% for 10 seconds.
And I just had a wet dream reading this. This is amazing. So amazing that it's actually balanced properly and we won't see it because the Devs hate being outdone and/or working to actually make things balanced. Yea I said it, you wanna fight me Devs? How `bout you go prove me wrong then, huh? HUH?!

Oh and make it so it's .5/1% Per Stack, stacking up to 5/10 times and lasting for 5 seconds. Leave the stamina regen as is from the original skill.
EDIT: Formatting

And these are my thoughts and ideas. Not much, but who knows, maybe one day the devs will listen.

Thejollygreenone

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Najarati wrote: »

Hey, everyone. After playing around with the two-handed weapon line for a bit and both hearing and reading the concerns from other players and guild members I wanted to suggest a few improvements to the line as a whole. The goal is to improve the general attractiveness of the line and to make its skills more useful and, in some cases, more powerful.

I’ll be breaking up this post into two parts: Active Skills and Passive Skills. Constructive feedback and alternative solutions are always appreciated.

Part One – The Active Skills

Cleave
Increase damage by 10%. Reduce cost by 10%. This affects all morphs.
Does this include the bleed damage as well?

Cleave (Brawler)
Unmodified

Cleave (Carve)
Unmodified

Critical Charge
Unmodified

Critical Charge (Stampede)
Player charges to target and attacks, dealing x Physical Damage. Always deals Critical Damage. Any casting enemies moved through are interrupted and stunned for y seconds.
Got my vote.

New Effect: Interrupts spells, putting casters off balance.

Critical Charge (Hammer Down)
Player charges to target and attacks, dealing x Physical Damage. Always deals Critical Damage. Affected target is immobilized for 4 seconds and its damage reduced y% for 6 seconds.
Decent for grouping support or PvP.

New Effects: Adds immobilize and damage reduction.

Uppercut
Reduce cast and animation time to 0.5 seconds. This affects all morphs.
Still think this move should be instant cast.

Uppercut (Wall Breaker)
Deals x Physical Damage to target, stuns for 3.5 seconds and knocks back 4 meters. If affected target is immune to crowd control effects target takes additional y% damage.
I'd say 15% with 1% increase per rank sounds fair, especially if it's a casted ability.

New Effect: Adds additional damage to crowd control-immune targets.

Uppercut (Disembowel)
Deals x Physical Damage to target, stuns for 3.5 seconds and knocks back 4 meters. Affected target has incoming healing reduced by y% and magicka, stamina, and health regeneration are reduced to 0 for 4 seconds.
Chyea? CHYEA!

New Effects: Adds healing and regeneration reduction

Reverse Slash
Unmodified

Reverse Slash (Executioner)
Unmodified
Add in an increase to damage if the enemy is blocking.

Reverse Slash (Avalanche)
Deals x Physical Damage, with damage increasing based on target's Health loss, to a maximum of 300%. Two nearby enemies take y% of damage inflicted and are stunned (knocked down) for 2 seconds.
Somebody said that Blazing Spear is slightly better/has longer range. Blazing Spear is borderline melee due to the odd aiming using this game's combat system. Second, Blazing Spear stuns only one enemy and unleashes an AoE with a party support synergy. My advice to make Avalanche comparable would be to simply increase it's base damage and have it leave a bleed effect on the enemy.

Momentum
Unmodified

Momentum (Forward Momentum)
Increases Weapon Damage by 10% for x seconds, and an additional 2% every 2 seconds. When activated, player is immune to snares for 4 seconds. Afterwards, snare effectiveness is still reduced by y% until the effect adds.
Bootyful.

New Effects: Snare immunity, reduced snare effects

Momentum (Rally)
Increases Weapon Damage by 10% for x seconds, and an additional 2% every 2 seconds. Healing received increases by y% for the duration and nearby allies are healed for 5% of player’s maximum health upon activation.
REALLY BOOTYFUL. This will make people want to take 2H for the sheer support ability when mixed with other Templar's alone. However I'd keep the heal to the user as well when the duration ends, or even have it heal both the user and it's allies at the beginning.

New Effects: Ally heal, increased healing received

EDIT: Fixed some of the variable names; clarity

Najarati wrote: »

Next up are the passive skills. Honestly, I don’t think too much work is needed here, though broken passives really should be fixed (Arcane Fighter!).

The two biggest standouts in need of work (in my opinion) are Heavy Weapons and Battle Rush. The former just didn't give much of a reason to use anything other than two-handed swords (flavor reasons notwithstanding) and the latter, while nice, was fairly specific for a final passive skill.

I tried to create a little more variety with Heavy Weapons and to make the reworked Battle Rush, called Onslaught, reward the user for battering the tar out of your enemy with basic attacks.

Bear in the mind, the values for these passives would be small. They’re the icing, not the cake.

Part Two – The Passive Skills

Forceful
Unmodified
I say increase the damage done to make it more impactful and meaningful. Say 5% increase on both ends.

Heavy Weapons
Two-Hand Axe: Attacks bleed for x Physical Damage over 10 seconds. Reduces target’s critical resistance by x% for 4 seconds. Can only occur once every 10 seconds.
The bleed needs to be a non-static scaling effect, and the Critical Resistance can be a Static 2/4 or 4/8%. That'd make it attractive to wield axes again.

Two-Hand Mace: Attacks ignore x armor. Blocking targets mitigate y% less damage and blocking costs z% more.
Again, armor ignore needs to be non-static scaling, but the blocking can be static as to avoid being overpowered and broken, say 5/10%.

Two-Hand Sword: Attacks deals x% additional damage. Light and heavy attack speed increased by y%.
This is the tricky but fun part. The others had to be scaling in order to keep them competitive, but here with the Two Handed Sword portion of this skill we need that it increases all damage by a Percentage, which means it pretty much Auto Scales itself. My advice in this case to make it more attractive would be to make it increase all forms of damage, not just sword based ones, but that'd be OP and clearly better than the other two, so we'll leave it at melee only. The attack speed can easily be static, but instead of a small amount like 5/10, I'd much rather see a larger amount to really show where the strength of wielding a sword is over a heavier weapon: It's swing speed. Make it 10/20% increased attack speed which stacks with Medium Armor and the Weighted Trait, and you'll have something golden here I think.

Balanced Blade
Unmodified

Arcane Fighter
Unmodified
I'd have it make it so that it either lowers the cooldown on Weapon Enchants or removes it entirely. That'd go a long way to increasing our PvE Sustainable DPS. Or rather do weapon enchants have Cooldowns? That part actually never got properly explained to me.

Onslaught
Light and heavy attacks increase the damage of the next light or heavy attack against the same target by x% for 6 seconds, stacking up to a maximum of y% damage. Killing the target increases Stamina regeneration by z% for 10 seconds.
And I just had a wet dream reading this. This is amazing. So amazing that it's actually balanced properly and we won't see it because the Devs hate being outdone and/or working to actually make things balanced. Yea I said it, you wanna fight me Devs? How `bout you go prove me wrong then, huh? HUH?!

Oh and make it so it's .5/1% Per Stack, stacking up to 5/10 times and lasting for 5 seconds. Leave the stamina regen as is from the original skill.
EDIT: Formatting

And these are my thoughts and ideas. Not much, but who knows, maybe one day the devs will listen.

Just an interjection to clear up the weapon enchant+arcane fighter bit, weapon enchants are all on a static cooldown, (5 seconds if I recall correctly, but don't take my word on that value) however it has a 100% proc chance every x seconds, so it is only limited by its cooldown.

Khivas_Carrick

Ahhh thank you, that case leave arcane fighter mostly as is, just have it increase the potency of the weapon enchants, that's my suggestion.

Armitas

Awesome passives. I especially like what you did with the 3 weapon types.

Najarati

Thanks for the discussion, everyone. Keep it coming.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Somebody said that Blazing Spear is slightly better/has longer range. Blazing Spear is borderline melee due to the odd aiming using this game's combat system. Second, Blazing Spear stuns only one enemy and unleashes an AoE with a party support synergy. My advice to make Avalanche comparable would be to simply increase it's base damage and have it leave a bleed effect on the enemy.

I’m hesitant to add a bleed effect to Avalanche because you already get this benefit through Cleave, making it somewhat redundant.

As such, there’s been some concern around the power of the Avalanche morph for Reverse Slash so let’s take a look at an alternative. How about something like this:

Reverse Slash (Avalanche)
Deals x Physical Damage, with damage increasing based on target's Health loss, to a maximum of 300%. Two nearby enemies, if affected, take y% of the damage inflicted and are dazed with a 25% chance to miss attacks for 4 seconds.

Added Effect: Deals splash damage to 2 nearby enemies, causes chance to miss

Regarding other feedback:

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

How 'bout this: cleave/carve. pc spins doing a 360° wide slash and deals damage to all nearby enemies not just those in front of him. Could be included as a morph. Like? No?

Oh! I missed this comment the first time. I avoided turning Cleave into a pure area-of-effect attack to keep from stepping too much on Dual Wield's toes since it has Whirlwind.

Similarly, I didn’t give any two hand ability a taunt because that’s signature to the one-hand and shield line. For Cleave and its morphs, is increasing its overall damage (base and bleed) by 10% and reducing its cost by 10% not enough to make it attractive?

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Arcane Fighter
Unmodified
I'd have it make it so that it either lowers the cooldown on Weapon Enchants or removes it entirely. That'd go a long way to increasing our PvE Sustainable DPS. Or rather do weapon enchants have Cooldowns? That part actually never got properly explained to me.

From my understanding, there are two parts to a weapon enchantment when it comes to elemental/disease effects: The actual damage (x fire damage, y disease damage, etc.) and the secondary effect (the burning damage-over-time for fire, the healing reduction for disease, etc.).

Given the existence of Arcane Fighter I’m assuming the secondary effects are not a 100% proc-rate whenever the damage from the enchantment triggers (which is a 100% proc-rate measured by an internal cooldown so far as I know).

If the above is true then Arcane Fighter is pretty nice, as is, since it makes secondary effects much more reliable. That is, it’s easier to keep the healing reduction or fire DOT going on your target.

On the topic of actual numerical values to skills, I've intentionally left these up for debate. Ultimately, it’d be up to the developers to determine how large/small the values should be. Some of the static scaling values could probably be changed to percentages (like in my Heavy Weapons changes), though one has to be mindful of power creep.

More feedback is always welcome. I made some comments earlier regarding Forward Momentum; whether or not to add immobilize immunity/immobilize resistance. I’d love to hear some more thoughts on that.

Cody

don't know if I already put this or not, or if its even in the list you made but...
block penetration

Najarati

Cody wrote: »

don't know if I already put this or not, or if its even in the list you made but...
block penetration

Have a look at my changes to the Heavy Weapons passive, specifically two-hand mace, and see if that fits the bill.

Khivas_Carrick

Reverse Slash (Avalanche)
Deals x Physical Damage, with damage increasing based on target's Health loss, to a maximum of 300%. Two nearby enemies, if affected, take y% of the damage inflicted and are dazed with a 25% chance to miss attacks for 4 seconds.

Added Effect: Deals splash damage to 2 nearby enemies, causes chance to miss

Muy Bien

Khivas_Carrick

I refuse to let this die.

People, comment on this, I know somebody doesn't agree with this, and in the case that everybody is on the same page, well then, holy *** ZoS we just did the legwork for you, come on now.

Brank

I haven't played the game for about 3 months but just renewed my sub today. When last I played, this was a subject of concern for me, as I had just finished maxing 2H and was very often out-damaged by dual and 1H-Shield.
My main concern is with the base and power attacks. I don't rightly know how to explain, but 2H weapon just does not feel like it should, in terms of raw power. Simply, in comparison 1H weapons, 2H weps, imo, should do significantly more base damage to compensate for the slow nature of swings.
From what I can remember, when dueling a dual wield opponent, unless I was able to knock them down, I would quickly be dispatched just by the dps of my opponent.
In summery, as a 2H wielder, I would just appreciate more balanced DPS potential compared to other melee classes of similar level and weapon attributes.

My 2 cents, thx for reading.

Khivas_Carrick

Brank wrote: »

I haven't played the game for about 3 months but just renewed my sub today. When last I played, this was a subject of concern for me, as I had just finished maxing 2H and was very often out-damaged by dual and 1H-Shield.
My main concern is with the base and power attacks. I don't rightly know how to explain, but 2H weapon just does not feel like it should, in terms of raw power. Simply, in comparison 1H weapons, 2H weps, imo, should do significantly more base damage to compensate for the slow nature of swings.
From what I can remember, when dueling a dual wield opponent, unless I was able to knock them down, I would quickly be dispatched just by the dps of my opponent.
In summery, as a 2H wielder, I would just appreciate more balanced DPS potential compared to other melee classes of similar level and weapon attributes.

My 2 cents, thx for reading.

What this man said, and thankfully (although you're a silly Blueberry =P) he has a good head on his shoulders to realize the massive discrepancy between 2H and pretty much everything else. Hopefully the suggestions the OP made are at the very least seriously looked at by the Devs, because he proposes some good stuff.

Kalann_Pander

Cody wrote: »

don't know if I already put this or not, or if its even in the list you made but...
block penetration

Najarati wrote: »

Have a look at my changes to the Heavy Weapons passive, specifically two-hand mace, and see if that fits the bill.

I had also come to the conclusion that block penetration was indeed the thing that 2H needed the most to climb out of the "most crappy weapon skill" hole it had inadvertently, and sadly, fallen into.

My search yielded this thread, which I've already insighted, you're welcome.
There are indeed quite a few good ideas, so I'll lend my support to the motion that ZoS should examine in detail what's happening here.

About block penetration, even if I agree that 2H Mauls deserve your suggested extra, I still think that Block and Armor Penetration should be a feature of all 2Handers.

EZMode : Modify Forceful :
Forceful (revised)
With Two-Handed Weapon equipped
Attacks and Weapon skills :
- Penetrate 5/10% Armor
- Reduce block effectiveness by 10/20%
- Increase 15/30% Cost of blocking

Just a suggestion. I'd very much appreciate that ZoS use some ideas presented here to give 2Handers some much-needed love, block penetration in one form or another first please.

Thejollygreenone

Kalann_Pander wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

don't know if I already put this or not, or if its even in the list you made but...
block penetration

Najarati wrote: »

Have a look at my changes to the Heavy Weapons passive, specifically two-hand mace, and see if that fits the bill.

I had also come to the conclusion that block penetration was indeed the thing that 2H needed the most to climb out of the "most crappy weapon skill" hole it had inadvertently, and sadly, fallen into.

My search yielded this thread, which I've already insighted, you're welcome.
There are indeed quite a few good ideas, so I'll lend my support to the motion that ZoS should examine in detail what's happening here.

About block penetration, even if I agree that 2H Mauls deserve your suggested extra, I still think that Block and Armor Penetration should be a feature of all 2Handers.

EZMode : Modify Forceful :
Forceful (revised)
With Two-Handed Weapon equipped
Attacks and Weapon skills :
- Penetrate 5/10% Armor
- Reduce block effectiveness by 10/20%
- Increase 15/30% Cost of blocking

Just a suggestion. I'd very much appreciate that ZoS use some ideas presented here to give 2Handers some much-needed love, block penetration in one form or another first please.

Personally, instead of % penetration through blocks, I'd like a general game feature to fully break someones block, similar to how an interrupt prevents someone from completing their cast for a moment.

For example this is a simple idea I played with as a basis: if I go through the risk of winding up a full heavy attack with a 2h against a blocking enemy, and I don't get bashed/interrupted, a brief unblockable knockback/set off balance should occur, increasing or decreasing in effectiveness based on weapontype and passives. (or lack of passive)

In previous TES games, if I recall correctly, this was a common mechanic. I think the ability to guard-break (blocking prevention mechanic) given in some degree to all weapon types, and 2h's specialization in said mechanic due to the nature of the weapon-type, would make the game a lot more interesting, and dare I say more well balanced, regarding the PvP department.

I say this because anyone who's been to cyrodiil can note the rampantly abundant use of blocking by everyone and anyone who knows how to and wants to survive, as well as the general consensus that 2h is not as good as it should be.

Although I should note, I've seen a few niche roles that take advantage of one or two 2h abilities do wonders in the toughest 1v1 situations, but it's only because of one abilities morph (stampede generally) as well as the fact these builds inevitably need to be backed up by a resto staff like most builds that are exceedingly successful in 1v1 situations.

There's my two cents on how I wish 2h would interact with blocking, and a bit on the state of blocking in general

Khivas_Carrick

I could see that for Forceful. Also for Battle Rush, change it so heavy attacks restore stamina immediately in chunks, not just increased regen when somebody dies.

Najarati

Hey everyone,

It's nice to see this thread still hovers at the top of the board. I've looked over the comments and have noticed repeated calls for increased effectiveness against blocking targets.

Personally, I don't like the idea of the Two-Handed line having block mitigation reductions or a block cost increases against opponents as a given for all two-handed attacks regardless of weapon choice. This would step on the One-Handed and Shield line whose specialty lies in reducing block costs and increasing damage mitigation through blocking.

Is it really fair to want high damage, good utility, and be able to punch through the passives of One-Handed and Shield? Bear in mind, the modifications for two-handed mace would already contribute towards making blocking a more costly endeavor for an enemy.

Having said all that, some kind of "guard break" might be appropriate. As such, I've proposed two variants below as modifications to the Forceful passive.

Forceful
Light Attacks with Two-Handed weapons deal x% splash damage to 1 nearby enemy. Heavy attacks with Two-Handed weapons have a y% chance to crush a blocking target's guard, preventing the target from blocking for 2 seconds.

Or...

Forceful
Light Attacks with Two-Handed weapons deal x% splash damage to 1 nearby enemy. Heavy attacks with Two-Handed weapons have a y% chance to stagger a blocking target, pushing the target back 1 meter and preventing the target from activating skills for 2 seconds.

What do you all think about these variants? One stops blocking for a short time, but the target can still use skills. The other stops skill usage for a short time, but the target can still block. Also, are folks taking in the totality of all the suggested changes when considering improvements? It's quite easy to let a series of small buffs become very powerful, very quickly.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I could see that for Forceful. Also for Battle Rush, change it so heavy attacks restore stamina immediately in chunks, not just increased regen when somebody dies.

Zenimax apparently has plans to make heavy attacks for all weapons (except staves) return stamina so the above suggestion might be overkill.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I hope Zenimax is listening.

EDIT: Clarity; added source link for ZoS's plans

Khivas_Carrick

If that's true then it would indeed be overkill and no longer needed. Still though, it could be better, such as increasing damage done by weapon skills by 1%, stacking 5 times and lasting 10 seconds, maybe even only 5 seconds, since the heat of battle is, well, the heat of battle.

Also 1H and Shield is meant more for PvE, but I can see what you mean from a PvP standpoint as well. Your suggestions actually seem really good on both ends, perhaps too good to be honest. Making skills unusable isn't too far off from being stunned or CC'ed, and would work best as long as you could use Break Free on it. It would definitely help loads with PvP, but I still wonder severely about the PvE viability of Two handed, thus for Forceful I'd rather see something about ignoring enemy armor in a similar vein that Destro Staffs make Destro Spells ignore enemy Spell Resistance.

Cody

This is very good. I hope ZOS is reading this instead of making sure all cheaters are protected and supported.

Davadin

I'm all for buffing the 2H line, but if ZOS is going to pick ONLY ONE change out of all this stuff...

...I hope it's the 50% casting time reduction for Uppercut (and all its morph).

That'll make a huge difference.

No Melee skills should have that long of a casting time....

Khivas_Carrick

That or make uppercut a channeled combo attack