Ability Altering Weapon Enchantments

Attorneyatlawl

Kego wrote: »

Oh, thats new to me, that skill is involved with completing Trails.
And I don't have a problem with the reward system. I want a world where I can live and feel the adventure and not the work with stupid Raid Item Grinds ever week, 2-4 days for 3-4 hours each. (I have enough work every week with my 9h/d)

That sucks so hard and I would leave at once, if this will ever be the way, ESO moves.

Sounds like a singleplayer game would suit you better, and I am not saying that to be snide, but MMO's are an evolving genre of game that changes constantly as the game is live.

As far as skill needed to do trials, they may not be as difficult as some of us would like, but if you consider that 99% of pug groups still can't finish them and most guild groups from various guilds have yet to complete the hard modes even once, there is some skill involved still . Same with PVP and topping the leaderboards consistently, to an extent. Regardless it's far more involved than farming 20,000g in an hour from animals solo and then paying a crafter for best-in-slot gear.

Xsorus

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

Oh, thats new to me, that skill is involved with completing Trails.
And I don't have a problem with the reward system. I want a world where I can live and feel the adventure and not the work with stupid Raid Item Grinds ever week, 2-4 days for 3-4 hours each. (I have enough work every week with my 9h/d)

That sucks so hard and I would leave at once, if this will ever be the way, ESO moves.

Sounds like a singleplayer game would suit you better, and I am not saying that to be snide, but MMO's are an evolving genre of game that changes constantly as the game is live.

As far as skill needed to do trials, they may not be as difficult as some of us would like, but if you consider that 99% of pug groups still can't finish them and most guild groups from various guilds have yet to complete the hard modes even once, there is some skill involved still . Same with PVP and topping the leaderboards consistently, to an extent. Regardless it's far more involved than farming 20,000g in an hour from animals solo and then paying a crafter for best-in-slot gear.

The last thing this game needs is best in slot gear coming from trials or pve in general.

I suggest you find another theme park if that is what you are looking for.

DDuke

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

Oh, thats new to me, that skill is involved with completing Trails.
And I don't have a problem with the reward system. I want a world where I can live and feel the adventure and not the work with stupid Raid Item Grinds ever week, 2-4 days for 3-4 hours each. (I have enough work every week with my 9h/d)

That sucks so hard and I would leave at once, if this will ever be the way, ESO moves.

Sounds like a singleplayer game would suit you better, and I am not saying that to be snide, but MMO's are an evolving genre of game that changes constantly as the game is live.

As far as skill needed to do trials, they may not be as difficult as some of us would like, but if you consider that 99% of pug groups still can't finish them and most guild groups from various guilds have yet to complete the hard modes even once, there is some skill involved still . Same with PVP and topping the leaderboards consistently, to an extent. Regardless it's far more involved than farming 20,000g in an hour from animals solo and then paying a crafter for best-in-slot gear.

The last thing this game needs is best in slot gear coming from trials or pve in general.

I suggest you find another theme park if that is what you are looking for.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the best in slot should come from trials or PvE only.

Currently this is how it works: you hit VR12 (14 next week), you spend some gold and craft gear, gear progression ends.

Now, in an ideal world this is how it would work:

You hit VR12, you craft your gear, you start doing end-game PvE, you start getting better gear and your character becomes more powerful, being able to tackle stronger content / PvP opponents.

OR

You hit VR12, you craft your gear, you start doing PvP and get better gear that way. (Note: should be much more difficult to get PvP gear than it is currently, and it should be BoP with way better stats/bonuses).


Does this make crafting irrelevant? Not at all, you'd still be able to craft decent gear to start out with, and another idea would be to have special crafting materials drop from high-end PvE / PvP that allow crafting of more stronger sets.

kentgreigrwb17_ESO

They could have put a toe in the water with good drops to engage people in PVE content but use it to alter already weak abilities if they want to temper it being clear BIS.

At the moment, PVP content is largely a zerg; and PVE content is irrelevant. ZOS is missing all opportunities for longevity in the game.

Fail

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

Oh, thats new to me, that skill is involved with completing Trails.
And I don't have a problem with the reward system. I want a world where I can live and feel the adventure and not the work with stupid Raid Item Grinds ever week, 2-4 days for 3-4 hours each. (I have enough work every week with my 9h/d)

That sucks so hard and I would leave at once, if this will ever be the way, ESO moves.

Sounds like a singleplayer game would suit you better, and I am not saying that to be snide, but MMO's are an evolving genre of game that changes constantly as the game is live.

As far as skill needed to do trials, they may not be as difficult as some of us would like, but if you consider that 99% of pug groups still can't finish them and most guild groups from various guilds have yet to complete the hard modes even once, there is some skill involved still . Same with PVP and topping the leaderboards consistently, to an extent. Regardless it's far more involved than farming 20,000g in an hour from animals solo and then paying a crafter for best-in-slot gear.

The last thing this game needs is best in slot gear coming from trials or pve in general.

I suggest you find another theme park if that is what you are looking for.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the best in slot should come from trials or PvE only.

Currently this is how it works: you hit VR12 (14 next week), you spend some gold and craft gear, gear progression ends.

Now, in an ideal world this is how it would work:

You hit VR12, you craft your gear, you start doing end-game PvE, you start getting better gear and your character becomes more powerful, being able to tackle stronger content / PvP opponents.

OR

You hit VR12, you craft your gear, you start doing PvP and get better gear that way. (Note: should be much more difficult to get PvP gear than it is currently, and it should be BoP with way better stats/bonuses).


Does this make crafting irrelevant? Not at all, you'd still be able to craft decent gear to start out with, and another idea would be to have special crafting materials drop from high-end PvE / PvP that allow crafting of more stronger sets.

Ok....I want you to reread what you typed up.

your 1st option, That's bloody Best in Slot coming from PVE...

The second option...That just leads to you out gearing new players..

Let me clear something up for people wanting this, This is not the game for it..You want that..By all means go play one of the many other failed PvP games that tried that silliness.

The only thing they need to change right now is the ability to change traits on gear...That's the only thing this game needs.

That way if you have a set bonus you really like, and its from PvE then you can go PVE for it. Otherwise leave the past crappy mistakes in previous crappy pvp games.

Attorneyatlawl

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

Oh, thats new to me, that skill is involved with completing Trails.
And I don't have a problem with the reward system. I want a world where I can live and feel the adventure and not the work with stupid Raid Item Grinds ever week, 2-4 days for 3-4 hours each. (I have enough work every week with my 9h/d)

That sucks so hard and I would leave at once, if this will ever be the way, ESO moves.

Sounds like a singleplayer game would suit you better, and I am not saying that to be snide, but MMO's are an evolving genre of game that changes constantly as the game is live.

As far as skill needed to do trials, they may not be as difficult as some of us would like, but if you consider that 99% of pug groups still can't finish them and most guild groups from various guilds have yet to complete the hard modes even once, there is some skill involved still . Same with PVP and topping the leaderboards consistently, to an extent. Regardless it's far more involved than farming 20,000g in an hour from animals solo and then paying a crafter for best-in-slot gear.

The last thing this game needs is best in slot gear coming from trials or pve in general.

I suggest you find another theme park if that is what you are looking for.

Cool story. Unfortunately it had zero to do with what I wrote which included pvp and pve. As far as a theme park, as someone who played DAOC for 7 years, warhammer for 2+, and tsw, no, I don't think I want a theme park thanks though.

I do want a working reward system in ESO that doesn't provide the best gear through simple gold grinding, rather it should require pvp and pve. Not just solo grinding gold. I already said this but you latched on to one half of a sentence in my prior post. Let's see if you bother to read this time or if you just speak at people instead of with them .

Xsorus

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

Oh, thats new to me, that skill is involved with completing Trails.
And I don't have a problem with the reward system. I want a world where I can live and feel the adventure and not the work with stupid Raid Item Grinds ever week, 2-4 days for 3-4 hours each. (I have enough work every week with my 9h/d)

That sucks so hard and I would leave at once, if this will ever be the way, ESO moves.

Sounds like a singleplayer game would suit you better, and I am not saying that to be snide, but MMO's are an evolving genre of game that changes constantly as the game is live.

As far as skill needed to do trials, they may not be as difficult as some of us would like, but if you consider that 99% of pug groups still can't finish them and most guild groups from various guilds have yet to complete the hard modes even once, there is some skill involved still . Same with PVP and topping the leaderboards consistently, to an extent. Regardless it's far more involved than farming 20,000g in an hour from animals solo and then paying a crafter for best-in-slot gear.

The last thing this game needs is best in slot gear coming from trials or pve in general.

I suggest you find another theme park if that is what you are looking for.

Cool story. Unfortunately it had zero to do with what I wrote which included pvp and pve. As far as a theme park, as someone who played DAOC for 7 years, warhammer for 2+, and tsw, no, I don't think I want a theme park thanks though.

I do want a working reward system in ESO that doesn't provide the best gear through simple gold grinding, rather it should require pvp and pve. Not just solo grinding gold. I already said this but you latched on to one half of a sentence in my prior post. Let's see if you bother to read this time or if you just speak at people instead of with them .

I'm going to go ahead and bold what ya just said.. Since you're not getting it.. What you just said was exactly what I pointed out..You want Best in Slot gear coming from PvE, which it shouldn't..and PvP, which it also shouldn't..

I feel like I need to explain why this feature is pure fail.

If we make PvE gear the best in slot, Everyone in PvP is going to be angry some raider has the best gear in the game. Whats the number 1 solution to this problem in every game since WoW? The introduction of the PvP stat. Be it Valor/Resilience or whatever......What could possibly be the problem with that you might say? Because every single MMO since forever has always made the same bloody mistake with it at the start. They introduce the PvP stat on to PvP gear...and they separate the gear levels with not only more actual regular stats, but also the PvP stat as well. This leads to Newbies getting absolutely crushed by not only Veteran players simply knowing how to PvP better, and not only by sheer regular stats being better, but the PvP stat as well.

Eventually some of the brighter Game Devs realize that the reason the stat was introduced in the first place was to separate the PvE and PvP gear... and they eventually change it so you have just regular stats being different on the levels of gear.

But that still leads a problem...Newbies not only having to deal with the skill level of opponents but actual stat values as well. Throw in things like the Champion Level system in the future and you sheer the metric stupidity of doing different levels of PvP gear or adding best in slot PvE gear to the game.

So like i said before..If you wanna play the same mistake countless other MMO's have made before..By all means, go play those failed MMO's.

*edit*

If you're wondering why I prefer it the way it right now? Its because its not a burden for new players to get into PvP. They can hit VR12, buy some gear off the vendor or whatever and craft the rest and they're good to go...That's perfect...Because these new players aren't going to get crushed by stats when they go out in PvP...Instead they're going to get crushed by players who are better then them. This will force them to get better and not have some outside influence of better stats.

The difference between PvP gear/PvE gear/Crafted gear should be the Set bonuses, and you should be allowed to change traits on those pieces of gear. So when it comes to making your build you look for Set Bonuses and such..Not the set with the best stats because it dropped from X mob. Best should be what the player decides they want for a setup. Not an artificial bonus.

Draconerus

Calling it a "MISTAKE" when all of the other successful MMO's, WoW included use this system counters your statement xsorusb14_ESO.

Xsorus

Draconerus wrote: »

Calling it a "MISTAKE" when all of the other successful MMO's, WoW included use this system counters your statement xsorusb14_ESO.

Cause when I think successful and fun pvp game, I think WoW.....

Attorneyatlawl

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Draconerus wrote: »

Calling it a "MISTAKE" when all of the other successful MMO's, WoW included use this system counters your statement xsorusb14_ESO.

Cause when I think successful and fun pvp game, I think WoW.....

Yeah, WOW's system isn't what I'd consider a good one, either . I don't see why they can't just do as DAOC did and have good gear come from both parts of the game, and people do what they need to do to gear how they want . It worked fine then, it should work fine now other than forum whines. I'm not advocating gear inflation, I'm advocating it not coming from super-easy activities that can be done solo inside of hours, for the best items in the entire game.

Smiteye

No reason at all they cant just make a working rewards system and *NOT* use a silly resilience type stat. No game before wow I know of did, so why should eso? Encourage people to play the whole game, not just one part. One key element of eso loot system and camelot before it was that you could use all rewards everywhere with no artificial restrictions.

Comaetilico

Wow was actualy the first game to introduce gear progression (at least based on my memory of previous game I never encountered it before... or at least not in such an exagerated form...)

after it many other game used the same system... out of them only WoW and a few other were able to regolate it in a functional way... (and personaly I don't like that system at all even in those game... but this is a personal opinion...)

before WoW (yes there was a time when WoW didn't exist ... ant there were already online MMO...) once yuu reached the cap... you usually had your gear crafted... and went with it ... at best there would be some sort of gear progression with rare material... but the progression was simply in the fact that those materials were actualy rare and so pretty expansive... and that meant that player usually started saving for them when they reached top level... end of the story...

Kego

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Yeah, WOW's system isn't what I'd consider a good one, either . I don't see why they can't just do as DAOC did and have good gear come from both parts of the game, and people do what they need to do to gear how they want . It worked fine then, it should work fine now other than forum whines. I'm not advocating gear inflation, I'm advocating it not coming from super-easy activities that can be done solo inside of hours, for the best items in the entire game.

Huh?
In year 1 the best Gear in Daoc was attained through crafting and a mix of the class legendary Armor (needed a Quest Chain from Level 1-50). Drops only Rings and Necklace
In year 2 the best Gear in Daoc was attained through crafting. Drops only Rings and Necklace, a few player used droped Weapons from Mass PVE Raids.
In year 3 the best Gear in Daoc was a mix of crafted and artefact gear from Atlantis, Drops for Rings and Necklace as well. (The first time, Subs in DAOC went down a lot!!)

Renuo

Kego wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Yeah, WOW's system isn't what I'd consider a good one, either . I don't see why they can't just do as DAOC did and have good gear come from both parts of the game, and people do what they need to do to gear how they want . It worked fine then, it should work fine now other than forum whines. I'm not advocating gear inflation, I'm advocating it not coming from super-easy activities that can be done solo inside of hours, for the best items in the entire game.

Huh?
In year 1 the best Gear in Daoc was attained through crafting and a mix of the class legendary Armor (needed a Quest Chain from Level 1-50). Drops only Rings and Necklace
In year 2 the best Gear in Daoc was attained through crafting. Drops only Rings and Necklace, a few player used droped Weapons from Mass PVE Raids.
In year 3 the best Gear in Daoc was a mix of crafted and artefact gear from Atlantis, Drops for Rings and Necklace as well. (The first time, Subs in DAOC went down a lot!!)

I subbed DAoC from release and lasted about a month into trials of atlantis before quitting (until classic server). Radically changing the game overnight is a terrible idea. That's part of the reason I don't mind ZOS taking their time with balancing and content. Having said that I'm starting to get very irritated with how long my gear is useful for.

Progression us one thing but remaking all your gear or having your current gear become worthless every month is too much. I really enjoyed in DAOC how it took time to build your gear up but once you had it you knew it would be good for several months.

Attorneyatlawl

Kego wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Yeah, WOW's system isn't what I'd consider a good one, either . I don't see why they can't just do as DAOC did and have good gear come from both parts of the game, and people do what they need to do to gear how they want . It worked fine then, it should work fine now other than forum whines. I'm not advocating gear inflation, I'm advocating it not coming from super-easy activities that can be done solo inside of hours, for the best items in the entire game.

Huh?
In year 1 the best Gear in Daoc was attained through crafting and a mix of the class legendary Armor (needed a Quest Chain from Level 1-50). Drops only Rings and Necklace
In year 2 the best Gear in Daoc was attained through crafting. Drops only Rings and Necklace, a few player used droped Weapons from Mass PVE Raids.
In year 3 the best Gear in Daoc was a mix of crafted and artefact gear from Atlantis, Drops for Rings and Necklace as well. (The first time, Subs in DAOC went down a lot!!)

That's a great tale, and doesn't contradict what I said whatsoever, so I don't get the purpose of your sarcastic "Huh?" at the beginning that makes it sound like you're trying to disagree when all you're doing is reinforcing my point .

Yes, I played daoc for 7 years roughly, almost continuously from launch, and the game evolved since its launch . The first couple of years were primarily crafting oriented but a large # of drops involved for the best templates too. Crafting in that game was more involved than ESO as well.

Yes, some got annoyed with TOA right off but the game recovered well and had many strong years afterward. My point was, though, that the best gear was not "just" crafted like it is in ESO, and in DAOC the gear decayed and broke so it was more of an expense anyway.

Regardless of time period you choose to section out, daoc did not have crafted gear as easily obtained as in this game nor did it last forever once made at an extremely low expense. The best gear and stat templates involved everything from crafting, pve, and pvp (for realm rank passives). Just as I said. That is my point.

Attorneyatlawl

Renuo wrote: »

Progression us one thing but remaking all your gear or having your current gear become worthless every month is too much. I really enjoyed in DAOC how it took time to build your gear up but once you had it you knew it would be good for several months.

Definitely a big point.

Comaetilico wrote: »

Wow was actualy the first game to introduce gear progression (at least based on my memory of previous game I never encountered it before... or at least not in such an exagerated form...)

after it many other game used the same system... out of them only WoW and a few other were able to regolate it in a functional way... (and personaly I don't like that system at all even in those game... but this is a personal opinion...)

before WoW (yes there was a time when WoW didn't exist ... ant there were already online MMO...) once yuu reached the cap... you usually had your gear crafted... and went with it ... at best there would be some sort of gear progression with rare material... but the progression was simply in the fact that those materials were actualy rare and so pretty expansive... and that meant that player usually started saving for them when they reached top level... end of the story...

Exactly, it was hard to get the best but once you did it lasted awhile. EQ1 did have progression though. WOW however took it to an absurd extreme and never caught my interest. In ESO it is trivial to cap out your gear within a couple of weeks and it's a done deal .

purple-magicb16_ESO

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

Anyone find the 2 hander yet?

This is what I'm waiting for too. 2H is in desperate need of a real spammable aoe move, and I still have hope that this might be their weird way of fixing it. Then again, looking at the other gear, probably not.

Sweet!

DDuke

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ok....I want you to reread what you typed up.

your 1st option, That's bloody Best in Slot coming from PVE...

The second option...That just leads to you out gearing new players..

Hold on right there. You're saying that everyone who just hit max level are entitled to the best gear available in game, with zero effort spent? It is expected in MMOs that players who have spent more time & effort at max. level and are skilled enough to do high-end PvE / PvP are rewarded with better gear.

If you want a PvP game where everyone is equal in terms of power, I'd try one of the billion MOBAs.


Let me explain this to you. In a subscription based MMORPG focused on both PvE and PvP, you need "hooks" to keep people playing. These "hooks" are provided by meaningful ways of making your character stronger.

Ever since I hit VR10 3-4 months ago, I've been using almost the exact same gear (crafting a new VR12 version after Craglorn). My character is just as powerful as he was back then, and there is no way to make him any stronger.

This is the case for me, and many many other people I play with, and I'm fairly certain it is the number one reason people quit the game once they hit VR12 and find there's nothing to do.


Also, why do you think WoW, for example was, (is) so succesfull?

It was addicting. You always had something challenging to do, and you were rewarded for it. (This was the case in vanilla atleast, haven't played it since TBC), one of the main reasons, if not the main reason why it kept it's playerbase, didn't start bleeding subscriptions right after launch and in fact grew in population.

Kego

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Exactly, it was hard to get the best but once you did it lasted awhile. EQ1 did have progression though. WOW however took it to an absurd extreme and never caught my interest. In ESO it is trivial to cap out your gear within a couple of weeks and it's a done deal .

In DAoC it took me around 4 weeks after every Expansion to get 99% of my BIS Gear. Be it crafting or a handfull Drops. And as you didn't even needed drops in Daoc for crafting, you just needed some friends that craft everything for the raw NPC material price.

rashkosh127ub17_ESO

Kego wrote: »

Oh, thats new to me, that skill is involved with completing Trails.
And I don't have a problem with the reward system. I want a world where I can live and feel the adventure and not the work with stupid Raid Item Grinds ever week, 2-4 days for 3-4 hours each. (I have enough work every week with my 9h/d)

That sucks so hard and I would leave at once, if this will ever be the way, ESO moves.

Trial gear should be the best in the game, or at least comparable with the best crafted gear sets and preferable in trial situations. That being said, all other content, bar dragonstar arena veteran-mode should be balanced around crafted and other easily attainable gear sets. Trials need to have a gear progression, which requires incrementally better gear. At the same time, players that do not want to do trials shouldn't be forced to in order to complete the other PvE content.

rashkosh127ub17_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The last thing this game needs is best in slot gear coming from trials or pve in general.

So... you think the best gear should come from PvP then?

Xsorus

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Draconerus wrote: »

Calling it a "MISTAKE" when all of the other successful MMO's, WoW included use this system counters your statement xsorusb14_ESO.

Cause when I think successful and fun pvp game, I think WoW.....

Yeah, WOW's system isn't what I'd consider a good one, either . I don't see why they can't just do as DAOC did and have good gear come from both parts of the game, and people do what they need to do to gear how they want . It worked fine then, it should work fine now other than forum whines. I'm not advocating gear inflation, I'm advocating it not coming from super-easy activities that can be done solo inside of hours, for the best items in the entire game.

I agree with that

Gear should be Horizontal not Vertical. There should be gear you might want to use from PvE, just like there should be from Crafting and PvP. Right now the only thing really keeping the gear from PvE being used in PvP (and PvP gear as well in some regards) is the lack of Impenetrable on the pieces. Allow traits to be changed and I'd probably be willing to use some of those sets.

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ok....I want you to reread what you typed up.

your 1st option, That's bloody Best in Slot coming from PVE...

The second option...That just leads to you out gearing new players..

Hold on right there. You're saying that everyone who just hit max level are entitled to the best gear available in game, with zero effort spent? It is expected in MMOs that players who have spent more time & effort at max. level and are skilled enough to do high-end PvE / PvP are rewarded with better gear.

If you want a PvP game where everyone is equal in terms of power, I'd try one of the billion MOBAs.


Let me explain this to you. In a subscription based MMORPG focused on both PvE and PvP, you need "hooks" to keep people playing. These "hooks" are provided by meaningful ways of making your character stronger.

Ever since I hit VR10 3-4 months ago, I've been using almost the exact same gear (crafting a new VR12 version after Craglorn). My character is just as powerful as he was back then, and there is no way to make him any stronger.

This is the case for me, and many many other people I play with, and I'm fairly certain it is the number one reason people quit the game once they hit VR12 and find there's nothing to do.


Also, why do you think WoW, for example was, (is) so succesfull?

It was addicting. You always had something challenging to do, and you were rewarded for it. (This was the case in vanilla atleast, haven't played it since TBC), one of the main reasons, if not the main reason why it kept it's playerbase, didn't start bleeding subscriptions right after launch and in fact grew in population.

A. Best Gear in this game should be what setup you decide to run. Not loot from X Boss from X Dungeon just because you think PvE gear should have better stats.

B. As for the thing about it being expected in MMO's, actually no...Its not... That's a product of Themeparks... not all MMO's though. The MMO's that adopted this approach ended up being fairly terrible at PvP...

C. These hooks you're talking about, Don't have to be stronger gear, which always leads to mudflation.

D. Champion system is coming

E. Yes..That's why when they announced that they were changing set bonuses, and/or increasing the VR levels to 14..You had a massive of backlash of people complaining about having to upgrade their gear.

F. It wasn't successful cause its gear grind..I can tell you that right now. It was successful because it was made by a company called Blizzard, and it was called World of Warcraft. Want to see my proof in that statement? You have 100s of WoW clones who honestly do their game better then Blizzard does, and yet.. you don't have them with millions of subscribers.

DDuke

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Draconerus wrote: »

Calling it a "MISTAKE" when all of the other successful MMO's, WoW included use this system counters your statement xsorusb14_ESO.

Cause when I think successful and fun pvp game, I think WoW.....

Yeah, WOW's system isn't what I'd consider a good one, either . I don't see why they can't just do as DAOC did and have good gear come from both parts of the game, and people do what they need to do to gear how they want . It worked fine then, it should work fine now other than forum whines. I'm not advocating gear inflation, I'm advocating it not coming from super-easy activities that can be done solo inside of hours, for the best items in the entire game.

I agree with that

Gear should be Horizontal not Vertical. There should be gear you might want to use from PvE, just like there should be from Crafting and PvP. Right now the only thing really keeping the gear from PvE being used in PvP (and PvP gear as well in some regards) is the lack of Impenetrable on the pieces. Allow traits to be changed and I'd probably be willing to use some of those sets.

You'd like everyone to wear impenetrable only when PvPing?

How about making Reinforced, Infused etc worth using and nerfing Impenetrable so people can actually crit in an MMO...

The problem is the trait being too strong, rather than gear not having it.

Xsorus

rashkosh127ub17_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The last thing this game needs is best in slot gear coming from trials or pve in general.

So... you think the best gear should come from PvP then?

No. Best Gear should be what you decide you want in your setup.

You want to use a set bonus from Crafting, That should be your best gear.

You want to use one from the PVP bags or vendors, by all means..That should be your best gear

You want to use the PvE sets for your sets...Again that should be your best gear.

Simply stating that PvE gear should have the best stats because it dropped from some mob in a dungeon is silly and a surefire way for PvPers to abandon your game.

Amerigo

Draconerus wrote: »

Calling it a "MISTAKE" when all of the other successful MMO's, WoW included use this system counters your statement xsorusb14_ESO.

Very nice argument indeed.

"Everyone is jumping off that cliff. It must be the right thing to do!"

DDuke

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Best Gear in this game should be what setup you decide to run. Not loot from X Boss from X Dungeon just because you think PvE gear should have better stats.

I agree, you should be able to achieve good gear in multiple ways, be that crafting, PvP or PvE. The point is, Effort+Skill=Better Gear, whether that is from PvP or PvE, doesn't matter. You have to give players something to strive for, else they will get bored and quit (countless people I know have already done that)

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

B. As for the thing about it being expected in MMO's, actually no...Its not... That's a product of Themeparks... not all MMO's though. The MMO's that adopted this approach ended up being fairly terrible at PvP...

A very PvP focused sandbox called Archeage was just released, and even that game has gear progression, and even though it's crafting based, it takes a long time and is quite difficult to craft the best gear from what I've read/heard. Lots of f2p/p2w aspects in that game though so haven't given it a shot myself.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

C. These hooks you're talking about, Don't have to be stronger gear, which always leads to mudflation.

Mudflation already exists in the form of VR levels. How many refined crafting materials or lower level sets (not counting Soulshine rings/necklaces) have you sold lately?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

D. Champion system is coming

Yes, that's one of the reason I returned to ESO after a one month break. The main reason was the promise of "seasonal" gear.

However, it now seems that these systems won't be implemented anytime soon...

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

E. Yes..That's why when they announced that they were changing set bonuses, and/or increasing the VR levels to 14..You had a massive of backlash of people complaining about having to upgrade their gear.

I don't think a fraction would have complained (me included) if they had just kept VR12 and instead added harder content with better gear. That would've meant the previous gear was still usable and possibly required to clear the harder content.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

F. It wasn't successful cause its gear grind..I can tell you that right now. It was successful because it was made by a company called Blizzard, and it was called World of Warcraft. Want to see my proof in that statement? You have 100s of WoW clones who honestly do their game better then Blizzard does, and yet.. you don't have them with millions of subscribers.

No MMOs after WoW have had content (to my knowledge) that required months to clear (Molten Core). That was something unique back then, having to be powerful enough to beat end-game content, and that really hooked people in. After that, they've casualized the game quite a lot from what I've heard (no wonder it started losing subs).

rashkosh127ub17_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No. Best Gear should be what you decide you want in your setup.

I think you're focusing far too heavily on the possibility (or rather the lack thereof) of a perfect system of gear where every potential set has it's uses to accommodate specific playstyles, while at the same time sharing equal levels of potential in most if not all aspects of the game. This notion is just entirely impossible, although I agree that it would be very interesting to see. Realistically, some sets are going to be better than others in certain situations, and there is very little that can ultimately done to change that. What most raiders in ESO want, including myself, is for the trial gear to have increased potential in trials. This increased potential could be relatively small but as long as it is an improvement over any other gear in the game, it would give us a reason to work for it, and then be proud of our effort. The same should go for pvp gear. It should be generally comparable in stats to PvE gear, yet it should have a small bonus that makes it preferable for PvP. This by no means should indicate that I want trial gear a requirement to do the trials, but from a min/max standpoint I feel it should outweigh crafted/pvp sets in terms of utility in trial situations.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is what the majority of the endgame PvE community is looking for, and when I look at the content that Zenimax plans to push out it appears to me that they want to keep this population healthy. Itemization is currently their biggest hurdle.

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Best Gear in this game should be what setup you decide to run. Not loot from X Boss from X Dungeon just because you think PvE gear should have better stats.

I agree, you should be able to achieve good gear in multiple ways, be that crafting, PvP or PvE. The point is, Effort+Skill=Better Gear, whether that is from PvP or PvE, doesn't matter. You have to give players something to strive for, else they will get bored and quit (countless people I know have already done that)

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

B. As for the thing about it being expected in MMO's, actually no...Its not... That's a product of Themeparks... not all MMO's though. The MMO's that adopted this approach ended up being fairly terrible at PvP...

A very PvP focused sandbox called Archeage was just released, and even that game has gear progression, and even though it's crafting based, it takes a long time and is quite difficult to craft the best gear from what I've read/heard. Lots of f2p/p2w aspects in that game though so haven't given it a shot myself.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

C. These hooks you're talking about, Don't have to be stronger gear, which always leads to mudflation.

Mudflation already exists in the form of VR levels. How many refined crafting materials or lower level sets (not counting Soulshine rings/necklaces) have you sold lately?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

D. Champion system is coming

Yes, that's one of the reason I returned to ESO after a one month break. The main reason was the promise of "seasonal" gear.

However, it now seems that these systems won't be implemented anytime soon...

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

E. Yes..That's why when they announced that they were changing set bonuses, and/or increasing the VR levels to 14..You had a massive of backlash of people complaining about having to upgrade their gear.

I don't think a fraction would have complained (me included) if they had just kept VR12 and instead added harder content with better gear. That would've meant the previous gear was still usable and possibly required to clear the harder content.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

F. It wasn't successful cause its gear grind..I can tell you that right now. It was successful because it was made by a company called Blizzard, and it was called World of Warcraft. Want to see my proof in that statement? You have 100s of WoW clones who honestly do their game better then Blizzard does, and yet.. you don't have them with millions of subscribers.

No MMOs after WoW have had content (to my knowledge) that required months to clear (Molten Core). That was something unique back then, having to be powerful enough to beat end-game content, and that really hooked people in. After that, they've casualized the game quite a lot from what I've heard (no wonder it started losing subs).

A. Again, you're wanting Best in Slot to come from PvE or PvP, both have proven to be problematic in these types of games. if its PvE, you'll get people wanting the PvP stat, and if its PvP.. you'll get new players not wanting to play cause they're getting crushed by both stats and skill.

B. ArcheAge is crafting based, and its not a question of time..its a question of how much money you have in your wallet. If you're rich, you can pretty much vastly outgear everyone else. That is also a problem and why its getting trashed right now by players calling it P2W.

C. Leveling via VR levels is not really the same thing as Mudflation. The difference for example between VR10 and VR12 gear is minor, hell even the difference between VR10 and VR12 is fairly minor as well. If you're set bonuses allow ya to hit stat caps already (or racials) you wouldn't notice the difference usually between the two. Mudflation would be for example, the difference between Vanilla WoW and BC opening day... were going up 1 level in gear double the amount of stats your previous gear had. Its why WoW is going to have a Stat Crunch next expansion.. Also to answer your question how about selling previous gear..I actually sell a decent amount of gear...Because people still need it for leveling to some extent.

D. Seasonal gear will be hated on by a vast majority of players..Don't expect it to stay long on PTS.

E. The second you add better gear that's usable in PvP and only gotten from PvE, is the second you'll end up having to add a PvP stat to the game cause of complaints. Why do you think the PvP stat was originally added to WoW? Because PvE simply outclassed anything you could get in PvP...and if they added PvP gear that was equal to PvE gear, the pver's complained that they "worked" hard and PvPers didn't.

F. That wasn't something unique.. Everquest had content just like that... Hell DAOC had content that was equally as hard..Do you realize how hard Apocalypse was to kill in Albion? As for MMO's after WoW, let me introduce you to this game called Rift, that had Raid content that was vastly superior in every way to WoW. Not to mention a far better Class system.

But lets go a step further, and examine how much being called WoW helps.. Look at Wildstar.. which is a just released WoW clone that tries its best to copy the "hard" nature of vanilla WoW. Despite the fact that it was billed for that hard nature, go to the forums right now and you'll see the same thing..People bloody hate organizing things like 40 man raids.. or doing attunements. Despite it being a copy of WoW's glory days, It sure as hell won't get anywhere near the amount of subscribers as WoW.

Xsorus

rashkosh127ub17_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No. Best Gear should be what you decide you want in your setup.

I think you're focusing far too heavily on the possibility (or rather the lack thereof) of a perfect system of gear where every potential set has it's uses to accommodate specific playstyles, while at the same time sharing equal levels of potential in most if not all aspects of the game. This notion is just entirely impossible, although I agree that it would be very interesting to see. Realistically, some sets are going to be better than others in certain situations, and there is very little that can ultimately done to change that. What most raiders in ESO want, including myself, is for the trial gear to have increased potential in trials. This increased potential could be relatively small but as long as it is an improvement over any other gear in the game, it would give us a reason to work for it, and then be proud of our effort. The same should go for pvp gear. It should be generally comparable in stats to PvE gear, yet it should have a small bonus that makes it preferable for PvP. This by no means should indicate that I want trial gear a requirement to do the trials, but from a min/max standpoint I feel it should outweigh crafted/pvp sets in terms of utility in trial situations.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is what the majority of the endgame PvE community is looking for, and when I look at the content that Zenimax plans to push out it appears to me that they want to keep this population healthy. Itemization is currently their biggest hurdle.

Again, what you're asking for limits the amount of gear one side chooses, and always leads to problems in the current system.

I mean you said it yourself.. You want your gear to be better then everything else in the game, and your solution for the PvP gear.. small bonuses aka PvP stats to separate it from the PvE gear.

All this will do is end up limiting the amount of gear either side uses while making this game the same copy cat failure that every past MMO has tried.

This is not the game for that....You're looking for a game called Wildstar, Rift, SWTOR, WoW, TSW... and countless other MMO's released that have tried that method.