Ability Altering Weapon Enchantments

rashkosh127ub17_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

This is not the game for that....You're looking for a game called Wildstar, Rift, SWTOR, WoW, TSW... and countless other MMO's released that have tried that method.

No this game is what Zenimax decides it is going to be, and these forums are for each individual to express what they want out of it. You can resort to being dismissive but it will ultimately get you nowhere.

Draconerus

My point was, if it isn't broken, don't fix it! Too many MMO's are trying to reinvent the wheel right now rather then following the formulas used in other successful MMO's.

DDuke

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Again, you're wanting Best in Slot to come from PvE or PvP, both have proven to be problematic in these types of games. if its PvE, you'll get people wanting the PvP stat, and if its PvP.. you'll get new players not wanting to play cause they're getting crushed by both stats and skill.

Well, that is a balancing issue, and it'd be up to the developers to make it balanced and if we're being honest I don't know anyone who likes the "PvP stat" system. Why not make gear that's useful for both PvE & PvP, obtainable from PvP and PvE?

As for the new players getting crushed, I don't think that leads to new players wanting to quit, I think that leads to new players wanting to become more powerful and thus having a reason to do PvE/PvP content.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

B. ArcheAge is crafting based, and its not a question of time..its a question of how much money you have in your wallet. If you're rich, you can pretty much vastly outgear everyone else. That is also a problem and why its getting trashed right now by players calling it P2W.

Here's how it works in that game: as a free customer you have specific amount of "labour points" which you can spend each day. If you subscribe (become a patron) you get double the amount of "labour points", and apart from that you can buy 1000 labour points for 2$ or something. P2W, I agree, but it still is very time consuming & actually requires effort (and $$$) to craft the best gear.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

C. Leveling via VR levels is not really the same thing as Mudflation. The difference for example between VR10 and VR12 gear is minor, hell even the difference between VR10 and VR12 is fairly minor as well. If you're set bonuses allow ya to hit stat caps already (or racials) you wouldn't notice the difference usually between the two. Mudflation would be for example, the difference between Vanilla WoW and BC opening day... were going up 1 level in gear double the amount of stats your previous gear had. Its why WoW is going to have a Stat Crunch next expansion.. Also to answer your question how about selling previous gear..I actually sell a decent amount of gear...Because people still need it for leveling to some extent.

Mudflation, from MUD and inflation, is an economic issue that exists in massively multiplayer online games. Mudflation occurs when future additions to (or even just continued operation of) a game causes previously acquired resources to decline in value.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

Yes, mudflation does exist in ESO and will happen again next week when VR14 is released, don't even try to deny it. How many VR12 armour pieces are you going to craft next week? Yeah... thought so.

The difference is, that in vanilla WoW your Tier 1 gear was still useful and even required to get the Tier 2 gear, so mudflation was minimal.

That is until an expansion announced a long time before (note: not patch) was released and the gear stats went up, as expected. Normal MMO behaviour.

Also, you should feel bad for selling lower level gear. That s**t is available for free in most guild banks. Talk about mudflation... I haven't had to buy gear once during the leveling of any of my characters, you get drops & quest rewards often enough to find upgrades.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

D. Seasonal gear will be hated on by a vast majority of players..Don't expect it to stay long on PTS.

Just because you would hate it, doesn't mean "vast majority of players" would hate it. In fact, it might even bring players back to the game (I know several who have stated they'd return if there was meaningful gear).

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

E. The second you add better gear that's usable in PvP and only gotten from PvE, is the second you'll end up having to add a PvP stat to the game cause of complaints. Why do you think the PvP stat was originally added to WoW? Because PvE simply outclassed anything you could get in PvP...and if they added PvP gear that was equal to PvE gear, the pver's complained that they "worked" hard and PvPers didn't.

Because WoW made a balancing mistake, ESO also has to do the same? Logic

But the truth is, there will always be people who complain about something.
If you made that PvP gear hard enough to get, I'm quite sure the PvE complainers would be a minority.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

F. That wasn't something unique.. Everquest had content just like that... Hell DAOC had content that was equally as hard..Do you realize how hard Apocalypse was to kill in Albion? As for MMO's after WoW, let me introduce you to this game called Rift, that had Raid content that was vastly superior in every way to WoW. Not to mention a far better Class system.

Yet none of these games had content that took month(s) to clear.
You may make difficult content that has really hard mechanics, but players will find a way to clear it surprisingly fast. That is, when there is no gear grind required.

In vanilla WoW, you had bosses you simply couldn't clear if your tank didn't have correct gear (which had a % drop chance from certain bosses), you couldn't kill Ragnaros unless your whole raid had fire resistance gear. It took time to gather these elements, and oh man did it feel satisfying when it finally paid off..
Mechanically Molten Core was actually a really easy raid, but it required a lot of effort in terms of gear (and people liked that).

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

But lets go a step further, and examine how much being called WoW helps.. Look at Wildstar.. which is a just released WoW clone that tries its best to copy the "hard" nature of vanilla WoW. Despite the fact that it was billed for that hard nature, go to the forums right now and you'll see the same thing..People bloody hate organizing things like 40 man raids.. or doing attunements. Despite it being a copy of WoW's glory days, It sure as hell won't get anywhere near the amount of subscribers as WoW.

I haven't played WildStar, since I couldn't stomach the art syle, but from what I've heard WildStar did well with the end-game, but failed at other sectors, there was not much to appease the casuals and the leveling experience wasn't particularly good.

And no wonder people hate organizing 40-man raids if there aren't enough people to form them lol

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Again, you're wanting Best in Slot to come from PvE or PvP, both have proven to be problematic in these types of games. if its PvE, you'll get people wanting the PvP stat, and if its PvP.. you'll get new players not wanting to play cause they're getting crushed by both stats and skill.

Well, that is a balancing issue, and it'd be up to the developers to make it balanced and if we're being honest I don't know anyone who likes the "PvP stat" system. Why not make gear that's useful for both PvE & PvP, obtainable from PvP and PvE?

As for the new players getting crushed, I don't think that leads to new players wanting to quit, I think that leads to new players wanting to become more powerful and thus having a reason to do PvE/PvP content.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

B. ArcheAge is crafting based, and its not a question of time..its a question of how much money you have in your wallet. If you're rich, you can pretty much vastly outgear everyone else. That is also a problem and why its getting trashed right now by players calling it P2W.

Here's how it works in that game: as a free customer you have specific amount of "labour points" which you can spend each day. If you subscribe (become a patron) you get double the amount of "labour points", and apart from that you can buy 1000 labour points for 2$ or something. P2W, I agree, but it still is very time consuming & actually requires effort (and $$$) to craft the best gear.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

C. Leveling via VR levels is not really the same thing as Mudflation. The difference for example between VR10 and VR12 gear is minor, hell even the difference between VR10 and VR12 is fairly minor as well. If you're set bonuses allow ya to hit stat caps already (or racials) you wouldn't notice the difference usually between the two. Mudflation would be for example, the difference between Vanilla WoW and BC opening day... were going up 1 level in gear double the amount of stats your previous gear had. Its why WoW is going to have a Stat Crunch next expansion.. Also to answer your question how about selling previous gear..I actually sell a decent amount of gear...Because people still need it for leveling to some extent.

Mudflation, from MUD and inflation, is an economic issue that exists in massively multiplayer online games. Mudflation occurs when future additions to (or even just continued operation of) a game causes previously acquired resources to decline in value.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

Yes, mudflation does exist in ESO and will happen again next week when VR14 is released, don't even try to deny it. How many VR12 armour pieces are you going to craft next week? Yeah... thought so.

The difference is, that in vanilla WoW your Tier 1 gear was still useful and even required to get the Tier 2 gear, so mudflation was minimal.

That is until an expansion announced a long time before (note: not patch) was released and the gear stats went up, as expected. Normal MMO behaviour.

Also, you should feel bad for selling lower level gear. That s**t is available for free in most guild banks. Talk about mudflation... I haven't had to buy gear once during the leveling of any of my characters, you get drops & quest rewards often enough to find upgrades.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

D. Seasonal gear will be hated on by a vast majority of players..Don't expect it to stay long on PTS.

Just because you would hate it, doesn't mean "vast majority of players" would hate it. In fact, it might even bring players back to the game (I know several who have stated they'd return if there was meaningful gear).

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

E. The second you add better gear that's usable in PvP and only gotten from PvE, is the second you'll end up having to add a PvP stat to the game cause of complaints. Why do you think the PvP stat was originally added to WoW? Because PvE simply outclassed anything you could get in PvP...and if they added PvP gear that was equal to PvE gear, the pver's complained that they "worked" hard and PvPers didn't.

Because WoW made a balancing mistake, ESO also has to do the same? Logic

But the truth is, there will always be people who complain about something.
If you made that PvP gear hard enough to get, I'm quite sure the PvE complainers would be a minority.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

F. That wasn't something unique.. Everquest had content just like that... Hell DAOC had content that was equally as hard..Do you realize how hard Apocalypse was to kill in Albion? As for MMO's after WoW, let me introduce you to this game called Rift, that had Raid content that was vastly superior in every way to WoW. Not to mention a far better Class system.

Yet none of these games had content that took month(s) to clear.
You may make difficult content that has really hard mechanics, but players will find a way to clear it surprisingly fast. That is, when there is no gear grind required.

In vanilla WoW, you had bosses you simply couldn't clear if your tank didn't have correct gear (which had a % drop chance from certain bosses), you couldn't kill Ragnaros unless your whole raid had fire resistance gear. It took time to gather these elements, and oh man did it feel satisfying when it finally paid off..
Mechanically Molten Core was actually a really easy raid, but it required a lot of effort in terms of gear (and people liked that).

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

But lets go a step further, and examine how much being called WoW helps.. Look at Wildstar.. which is a just released WoW clone that tries its best to copy the "hard" nature of vanilla WoW. Despite the fact that it was billed for that hard nature, go to the forums right now and you'll see the same thing..People bloody hate organizing things like 40 man raids.. or doing attunements. Despite it being a copy of WoW's glory days, It sure as hell won't get anywhere near the amount of subscribers as WoW.

I haven't played WildStar, since I couldn't stomach the art syle, but from what I've heard WildStar did well with the end-game, but failed at other sectors, there was not much to appease the casuals and the leveling experience wasn't particularly good.

And no wonder people hate organizing 40-man raids if there aren't enough people to form them lol

A. Why not make gear thats usable in both PvE and PVP? that's what we have now.. plus crafting. If we just made crafting not usable people would be incredibly poed about it, and the last thing people want to do when they hit VR12 is go do a bunch of dungeons for gear...or go out into PvP with subpar gear (if we're making crafting the subpar gear) and get wrecked till they can afford better gear. Right now..people can hit max level, go out in PvP that day and be on par with others...That is a good thing..That means you have more people pvping.

B. Labor Potions is only half the equation, I'd link the post by basically right now you can get something like 10x the amount of labor points via labor potions then someone who doesn't use them. The other half of the equation is the archneum (I think i'm spelling that wrong) Which is used to upgrade gear quality, think Deugh Wax... only you it rarely drops from the game, and is far easier to get buying it from the cash shop. Basically the more money you spend, the faster you do things and the faster you get better gear..P2W.

C. I'm not going to craft any gear next week most likely...I'm not even going to upgrade my main gear set. I've checked the difference between gear on PTS..Its not worth the time or effort to bother with it..its incredibly minor. That's for a Race that isn't even softcapped on everything cause I don't have the health/stamina/magicka bonuses like some. Hell my main set right now uses VR11 gear... That should tell you how much VR levels matter in terms of gear.

As for T1 gear, I had some raid gear on the first day of Burning Crusade, I replaced it within 1 level...With Greens from quest mobs.

D. I guarantee that Seasonal Gear will be universally hated by everyone the day its put on PTS. The people who bought this game didn't buy it because they thought it was going to like WoW...if all the past hate they've gotten on Set changes and VR level upgrades haven't clued you or the devs in on it, then putting seasonal gear in will. In fact go read the posts about the announcements, and one of the things you'll notice in all of them is people saying they didn't like the idea of Seasonal gear.

E. Ahh see.. and now your solution is starting to have troubles ...Now its "well if we made the PvP gear hard to get, i'm sure the PvErs wouldn't cry as much"...which means pretty much everyone PvPing is going to get crushed by people with better gear, and they're going to complain about the grind getting it. This problem has been repeated a 1000x over in multiple MMO's. If you make PvE gear better, you gotta add a PvP stat, if you don't have add a PvP stat, and instead make PvE and PvP gear equal PvErs complain about PvPers having equal gear, If you make PvP gear harder to get..people trying to PvP complain about getting crushed by Gear.

F. I take it you've never played Rift...Rift required every bit of that and more... In fact Rift now a days is closer to WoW BC then WoW is today.

DDuke

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Why not make gear thats usable in both PvE and PVP? that's what we have now.. plus crafting. If we just made crafting not usable people would be incredibly poed about it, and the last thing people want to do when they hit VR12 is go do a bunch of dungeons for gear...or go out into PvP with subpar gear (if we're making crafting the subpar gear) and get wrecked till they can afford better gear. Right now..people can hit max level, go out in PvP that day and be on par with others...That is a good thing..That means you have more people pvping.

Hold on. The first thing that I want to do when I hit max level is going to dungeons for gear (preferably in order to do harder content for even better gear). You're not talking for everyone (or even the majority I'd wager) here.

In vanilla WoW, I PvP'ed all the time in subpar (tier 1 when tier 2 had been out for a long time) gear (I played an orc shaman). I have fond memories of winning better geared opponents and the challenge it provided. I also have fond memories of feeling more powerful when I got more epics.
The feeling when you have a character and you're slowly unlocking his full potential, instead of getting everything straight away with next to no effort spent (like in ESO currently). These are things which make good MMOs.

Also in regards to crafting, you can easily mix crafting & end-game PvE/PvP (in fact, the most powerful 2H weapon in vanilla WoW required you to craft it). How about having 1-2 special ore nodes in Trials, or having some special crafting materials drop (very rarely) from PvP reward bags or Trial bosses and making them BoE so crafters have access to them? Just some ideas.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

B. Labor Potions is only half the equation, I'd link the post by basically right now you can get something like 10x the amount of labor points via labor potions then someone who doesn't use them. The other half of the equation is the archneum (I think i'm spelling that wrong) Which is used to upgrade gear quality, think Deugh Wax... only you it rarely drops from the game, and is far easier to get buying it from the cash shop. Basically the more money you spend, the faster you do things and the faster you get better gear..P2W.

I'm not trying to defend the game if that's what you're thinking. I'm just saying that despite the P2W aspects, it's not easy to get the best gear and that there is a gear progression.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

C. I'm not going to craft any gear next week most likely...I'm not even going to upgrade my main gear set. I've checked the difference between gear on PTS..Its not worth the time or effort to bother with it..its incredibly minor. That's for a Race that isn't even softcapped on everything cause I don't have the health/stamina/magicka bonuses like some. Hell my main set right now uses VR11 gear... That should tell you how much VR levels matter in terms of gear.

As for T1 gear, I had some raid gear on the first day of Burning Crusade, I replaced it within 1 level...With Greens from quest mobs.

And this is the exact problem. Gear is meaningless at the moment, and the difference between VR11 & VR12 is small. But yet, if you're one of the people who want to get the most out of your character, you'll feel obliged to upgrade your gear to the exact same it was before (except VR14) with little to no effort spent, and then you'll be spending next couple of months with the exact same gear.

Now let me ask you a question: where do you find character (gear) progression in any of that? What keeps you playing when the gameplay isn't rewarding (fun)?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

D. I guarantee that Seasonal Gear will be universally hated by everyone the day its put on PTS. The people who bought this game didn't buy it because they thought it was going to like WoW...if all the past hate they've gotten on Set changes and VR level upgrades haven't clued you or the devs in on it, then putting seasonal gear in will. In fact go read the posts about the announcements, and one of the things you'll notice in all of them is people saying they didn't like the idea of Seasonal gear.

To be honest, I haven't seen or found anything like those posts you are talking about. Perhaps you'd like to link them to me? Also I think it'd be a great idea to start a poll about this.
"a) Would you like to have more progression in the game in terms of gear
or
b) Would you like to spend the next couple of months in the same gear"

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

E. Ahh see.. and now your solution is starting to have troubles ...Now its "well if we made the PvP gear hard to get, i'm sure the PvErs wouldn't cry as much"...which means pretty much everyone PvPing is going to get crushed by people with better gear, and they're going to complain about the grind getting it. This problem has been repeated a 1000x over in multiple MMO's. If you make PvE gear better, you gotta add a PvP stat, if you don't have add a PvP stat, and instead make PvE and PvP gear equal PvErs complain about PvPers having equal gear, If you make PvP gear harder to get..people trying to PvP complain about getting crushed by Gear.

There's always going to be people complaining. In fact, there are people complaining about gear right now (you are looking at one).

It is impossible to please everyone 100% of the time, but you can atleast try to do so.

And regarding the people complaining about the grind of getting something powerful, those are the same people who are going to complain about having nothing to do once they've got everything they wanted.
Which is better, having nothing to do or having too much to do?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

F. I take it you've never played Rift...Rift required every bit of that and more... In fact Rift now a days is closer to WoW BC then WoW is today.

No, I haven't played Rift, nor will I since it is F2P.

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Why not make gear thats usable in both PvE and PVP? that's what we have now.. plus crafting. If we just made crafting not usable people would be incredibly poed about it, and the last thing people want to do when they hit VR12 is go do a bunch of dungeons for gear...or go out into PvP with subpar gear (if we're making crafting the subpar gear) and get wrecked till they can afford better gear. Right now..people can hit max level, go out in PvP that day and be on par with others...That is a good thing..That means you have more people pvping.

Hold on. The first thing that I want to do when I hit max level is going to dungeons for gear (preferably in order to do harder content for even better gear). You're not talking for everyone (or even the majority I'd wager) here.

In vanilla WoW, I PvP'ed all the time in subpar (tier 1 when tier 2 had been out for a long time) gear (I played an orc shaman). I have fond memories of winning better geared opponents and the challenge it provided. I also have fond memories of feeling more powerful when I got more epics.
The feeling when you have a character and you're slowly unlocking his full potential, instead of getting everything straight away with next to no effort spent (like in ESO currently). These are things which make good MMOs.

Also in regards to crafting, you can easily mix crafting & end-game PvE/PvP (in fact, the most powerful 2H weapon in vanilla WoW required you to craft it). How about having 1-2 special ore nodes in Trials, or having some special crafting materials drop (very rarely) from PvP reward bags or Trial bosses and making them BoE so crafters have access to them? Just some ideas.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

B. Labor Potions is only half the equation, I'd link the post by basically right now you can get something like 10x the amount of labor points via labor potions then someone who doesn't use them. The other half of the equation is the archneum (I think i'm spelling that wrong) Which is used to upgrade gear quality, think Deugh Wax... only you it rarely drops from the game, and is far easier to get buying it from the cash shop. Basically the more money you spend, the faster you do things and the faster you get better gear..P2W.

I'm not trying to defend the game if that's what you're thinking. I'm just saying that despite the P2W aspects, it's not easy to get the best gear and that there is a gear progression.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

C. I'm not going to craft any gear next week most likely...I'm not even going to upgrade my main gear set. I've checked the difference between gear on PTS..Its not worth the time or effort to bother with it..its incredibly minor. That's for a Race that isn't even softcapped on everything cause I don't have the health/stamina/magicka bonuses like some. Hell my main set right now uses VR11 gear... That should tell you how much VR levels matter in terms of gear.

As for T1 gear, I had some raid gear on the first day of Burning Crusade, I replaced it within 1 level...With Greens from quest mobs.

And this is the exact problem. Gear is meaningless at the moment, and the difference between VR11 & VR12 is small. But yet, if you're one of the people who want to get the most out of your character, you'll feel obliged to upgrade your gear to the exact same it was before (except VR14) with little to no effort spent, and then you'll be spending next couple of months with the exact same gear.

Now let me ask you a question: where do you find character (gear) progression in any of that? What keeps you playing when the gameplay isn't rewarding (fun)?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

D. I guarantee that Seasonal Gear will be universally hated by everyone the day its put on PTS. The people who bought this game didn't buy it because they thought it was going to like WoW...if all the past hate they've gotten on Set changes and VR level upgrades haven't clued you or the devs in on it, then putting seasonal gear in will. In fact go read the posts about the announcements, and one of the things you'll notice in all of them is people saying they didn't like the idea of Seasonal gear.

To be honest, I haven't seen or found anything like those posts you are talking about. Perhaps you'd like to link them to me? Also I think it'd be a great idea to start a poll about this.
"a) Would you like to have more progression in the game in terms of gear
or
b) Would you like to spend the next couple of months in the same gear"

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

E. Ahh see.. and now your solution is starting to have troubles ...Now its "well if we made the PvP gear hard to get, i'm sure the PvErs wouldn't cry as much"...which means pretty much everyone PvPing is going to get crushed by people with better gear, and they're going to complain about the grind getting it. This problem has been repeated a 1000x over in multiple MMO's. If you make PvE gear better, you gotta add a PvP stat, if you don't have add a PvP stat, and instead make PvE and PvP gear equal PvErs complain about PvPers having equal gear, If you make PvP gear harder to get..people trying to PvP complain about getting crushed by Gear.

There's always going to be people complaining. In fact, there are people complaining about gear right now (you are looking at one).

It is impossible to please everyone 100% of the time, but you can atleast try to do so.

And regarding the people complaining about the grind of getting something powerful, those are the same people who are going to complain about having nothing to do once they've got everything they wanted.
Which is better, having nothing to do or having too much to do?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

F. I take it you've never played Rift...Rift required every bit of that and more... In fact Rift now a days is closer to WoW BC then WoW is today.

No, I haven't played Rift, nor will I since it is F2P.

A. I'm willing to bet most people don't wanna do that...In fact a lot of people bought this game specifically because they wouldn't have to do that. Mainly because we've seen how games like that end up. Also winning based on the fact I have better gear is not what I call a good MMO... that's what I call a shoddy MMO.

B. Like i said, right now that game is based on money spent, not really time spent.

C. I'll skip straight to the main question, What keeps me playing if the gameplay isn't rewarding or fun? First...If the gameplay is not rewarding or fun, I don't play...Adding a Gear Grind to that won't change that fact..If you think you need a gear grind to make a game fun..I don't know what to tell ya..other then it won't help.

D. Simply go search for seasonal gear on the forums.

E. You can't please everyone 100% of the time, So why would they change their core game mechanics to suit something that has failed in many previous games.

F. It didn't use to be F2P, as for it being F2P..if ya like raiding I recommend it, Since they've got a fairly good F2P system...They don't nickle and dime ya on anything..You can pretty much all content for free in that game with no penalty either.

DDuke

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. I'm willing to bet most people don't wanna do that...In fact a lot of people bought this game specifically because they wouldn't have to do that. Mainly because we've seen how games like that end up. Also winning based on the fact I have better gear is not what I call a good MMO... that's what I call a shoddy MMO.

Who are these "most people", can I talk with them?

I've also seen how games with nothing to do at end-game end up. They end up dead. That is not an opinion, it's a fact.

What is a good MMO & what is a shoddy MMO, we can have opinions over though.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

B. Like i said, right now that game is based on money spent, not really time spent.

Yes, yet even with p2w crap it takes more effort to craft the best gear than in ESO.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

C. I'll skip straight to the main question, What keeps me playing if the gameplay isn't rewarding or fun? First...If the gameplay is not rewarding or fun, I don't play...Adding a Gear Grind to that won't change that fact..If you think you need a gear grind to make a game fun..I don't know what to tell ya..other then it won't help.

Funny, most of the people I know who have quit the game have quit for two reasons:
a) Stamina builds not being viable
b) Lack of any gear progression and meaningless Trials/PvP

The gameplay is fun, sure, for the first time you go through a Trial. Second time it's meh, third time it starts to get a bit boring and fourth time you're wondering why you're doing this, since you're just going to deconstruct all the drops.

Gear grind doesn't make the game fun by itself, but for many people it prolongs the fun you can have with an MMO.

Please mention one succesfull subscription based MMO without any kind of gear progression. Go ahead.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

D. Simply go search for seasonal gear on the forums.

I did, and I found two posts from couple months ago where someone, who apparently hasn't spent much (if any) time at VR12, has been upset about the upcoming change and a bunch of people arguing back and forth for the change. Welcome to the internet.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

E. You can't please everyone 100% of the time, So why would they change their core game mechanics to suit something that has failed in many previous games.

Because most of the serious PvE guilds have already quit the game & the game is bleeding VR12 subs? Not too late to bring them back.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

F. It didn't use to be F2P, as for it being F2P..if ya like raiding I recommend it, Since they've got a fairly good F2P system...They don't nickle and dime ya on anything..You can pretty much all content for free in that game with no penalty either.

If they don't nickle and dime on people that only means it gets content at a slow pace. They have to get the money to create content from somewhere.

And taking a look at their patch notes this seems to be the case
(http://forums.riftgame.com/general-discussions/patch-notes/)

There are no good F2Ps (you may LOL my post as many times as you wish)

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. I'm willing to bet most people don't wanna do that...In fact a lot of people bought this game specifically because they wouldn't have to do that. Mainly because we've seen how games like that end up. Also winning based on the fact I have better gear is not what I call a good MMO... that's what I call a shoddy MMO.

Who are these "most people", can I talk with them?

I've also seen how games with nothing to do at end-game end up. They end up dead. That is not an opinion, it's a fact.

What is a good MMO & what is a shoddy MMO, we can have opinions over though.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

B. Like i said, right now that game is based on money spent, not really time spent.

Yes, yet even with p2w crap it takes more effort to craft the best gear than in ESO.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

C. I'll skip straight to the main question, What keeps me playing if the gameplay isn't rewarding or fun? First...If the gameplay is not rewarding or fun, I don't play...Adding a Gear Grind to that won't change that fact..If you think you need a gear grind to make a game fun..I don't know what to tell ya..other then it won't help.

Funny, most of the people I know who have quit the game have quit for two reasons:
a) Stamina builds not being viable
b) Lack of any gear progression and meaningless Trials/PvP

The gameplay is fun, sure, for the first time you go through a Trial. Second time it's meh, third time it starts to get a bit boring and fourth time you're wondering why you're doing this, since you're just going to deconstruct all the drops.

Gear grind doesn't make the game fun by itself, but for many people it prolongs the fun you can have with an MMO.

Please mention one succesfull subscription based MMO without any kind of gear progression. Go ahead.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

D. Simply go search for seasonal gear on the forums.

I did, and I found two posts from couple months ago where someone, who apparently hasn't spent much (if any) time at VR12, has been upset about the upcoming change and a bunch of people arguing back and forth for the change. Welcome to the internet.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

E. You can't please everyone 100% of the time, So why would they change their core game mechanics to suit something that has failed in many previous games.

Because most of the serious PvE guilds have already quit the game & the game is bleeding VR12 subs? Not too late to bring them back.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

F. It didn't use to be F2P, as for it being F2P..if ya like raiding I recommend it, Since they've got a fairly good F2P system...They don't nickle and dime ya on anything..You can pretty much all content for free in that game with no penalty either.

If they don't nickle and dime on people that only means it gets content at a slow pace. They have to get the money to create content from somewhere.

And taking a look at their patch notes this seems to be the case
(http://forums.riftgame.com/general-discussions/patch-notes/)

There are no good F2Ps (you may LOL my post as many times as you wish)

A. This game has an end game, its called Cyrodiil.

B. It requires more effort to craft the best gear yes..But that's not exactly a good thing either.

C. Stamina Builds aren't viable in PvE, they are viable in PvP. I've yet to see someone quit this game over lack of meaningful PvE though..Certainly no one who's quit over the lack of a Gear Grind. I also know of very few people who actually enjoy Gear grinds.

D. they were arguing over Seasonal Gear being bad for the game.. it'll end up making most people angry... simply look at the hoopla over people having to upgrade their gear constantly.

E. There was no serious PvE guilds who played this game. They also wouldn't come back to this game if it added a gear grind even if they had played. They don't play the game for Gear grinds.. they play it for the challenging PvE content.

F. Rofl.. Rift released an expansion last year that had more content then the past 2 WoW expansions....Do you know how large Storm Legion was? It was bloody twice the size of the original game. They've not only constantly released things like Housing/more dungeons and raids but they're also getting ready to release yet another Expansion pack. Here is the kicker...They don't charge for content...you can log into that game right now.. and play it alway to Max level and not need anything like an XP potions or anything. Hell their last expansions content is free now, the only thing they charged from that expansion was the Souls (think classes)

They make most of their money off of Cosmetic items...You can pretty much every armor set in that game as a cosmetic item and apply it to your character.

Yusuf

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Draconerus wrote: »

Calling it a "MISTAKE" when all of the other successful MMO's, WoW included use this system counters your statement xsorusb14_ESO.

Cause when I think successful and fun pvp game, I think WoW.....

Yeah, WOW's system isn't what I'd consider a good one, either . I don't see why they can't just do as DAOC did and have good gear come from both parts of the game, and people do what they need to do to gear how they want . It worked fine then, it should work fine now other than forum whines. I'm not advocating gear inflation, I'm advocating it not coming from super-easy activities that can be done solo inside of hours, for the best items in the entire game.

There is no "best item in the entire game".
I got every trial-armor double- and triplefold and still wear my own crafted set.

Pleira

To support DDuke somewhat, I'm from a large raiding guild at AD EU and I know of several people (raiders) from my guild and also from other guilds that quit because they 'finished' their character and saw no goal or progression in the game. You shouldn't assume that everybody wants to have Cyrodiil as their only 'endgame'. There ARE people that want a gear progression! Most of them are already gone. From my first raiding group only me and one other person are left, 90% or more of the people we had 3 month ago left the game.
And i speak about people who got to VR12, played all dungeons and farmed all trials easily. They wanted more challenging content and better gear drops from PvE.
Some (below 5) people are coming back with the next trial and hopefulyl some better gear on the horizont, but there are still many good players that liked the game until endgame that are lost.

Right now, when we need another player for our raid because someone quit we can just grab the newest member from our guild, have him craft some gear and take him into HM for his first trial run ever. This simply feels wrong to me...

Kego

DDuke wrote: »

Please mention one succesfull subscription based MMO without any kind of gear progression. Go ahead.

Dark Age of Camelot. Never went f2p and could keep its 250.000 Subs for over 5 years. (Which was a lot of player in a time where most player had to use modems with 56k speed)

This game only had once a year a gear progression with a new Expansion adding new PvE Zones, classes, races, professions.

After each expansion you needed around 4 weeks, to attain your new aromor, weapons and jewely (Where it was necessary to hit Softcap again.). And after this, the gear progression ended for the next 11 months.

But that was nothing to be concerned of, cause PvE was only some side Content, main content has always been the war between 3 factions and just fighting this never ending war was fun enough to play over 5 years.

zbtiqua

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

rashkosh127ub17_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No. Best Gear should be what you decide you want in your setup.

I think you're focusing far too heavily on the possibility (or rather the lack thereof) of a perfect system of gear where every potential set has it's uses to accommodate specific playstyles, while at the same time sharing equal levels of potential in most if not all aspects of the game. This notion is just entirely impossible, although I agree that it would be very interesting to see. Realistically, some sets are going to be better than others in certain situations, and there is very little that can ultimately done to change that. What most raiders in ESO want, including myself, is for the trial gear to have increased potential in trials. This increased potential could be relatively small but as long as it is an improvement over any other gear in the game, it would give us a reason to work for it, and then be proud of our effort. The same should go for pvp gear. It should be generally comparable in stats to PvE gear, yet it should have a small bonus that makes it preferable for PvP. This by no means should indicate that I want trial gear a requirement to do the trials, but from a min/max standpoint I feel it should outweigh crafted/pvp sets in terms of utility in trial situations.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is what the majority of the endgame PvE community is looking for, and when I look at the content that Zenimax plans to push out it appears to me that they want to keep this population healthy. Itemization is currently their biggest hurdle.

Again, what you're asking for limits the amount of gear one side chooses, and always leads to problems in the current system.

I mean you said it yourself.. You want your gear to be better then everything else in the game, and your solution for the PvP gear.. small bonuses aka PvP stats to separate it from the PvE gear.

All this will do is end up limiting the amount of gear either side uses while making this game the same copy cat failure that every past MMO has tried.

This is not the game for that....You're looking for a game called Wildstar, Rift, SWTOR, WoW, TSW... and countless other MMO's released that have tried that method.

So what, would you suggest, is the purpose of raiding in this game? Aside from the achievement, why even do it? You can get the best gear of the game 30 seconds after leveling to VR12, then you are done. So why do high end PvE content? This, quite obviously, is the hole in your argument that you are ignoring.

Erock25

I'll have to agree that subscription based MMOs without a gear grind fail every time. MMOs and many RPGs in general rely on the gear grind carrot to keep people entertained.

Xsorus

zbtiqua wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

rashkosh127ub17_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No. Best Gear should be what you decide you want in your setup.

I think you're focusing far too heavily on the possibility (or rather the lack thereof) of a perfect system of gear where every potential set has it's uses to accommodate specific playstyles, while at the same time sharing equal levels of potential in most if not all aspects of the game. This notion is just entirely impossible, although I agree that it would be very interesting to see. Realistically, some sets are going to be better than others in certain situations, and there is very little that can ultimately done to change that. What most raiders in ESO want, including myself, is for the trial gear to have increased potential in trials. This increased potential could be relatively small but as long as it is an improvement over any other gear in the game, it would give us a reason to work for it, and then be proud of our effort. The same should go for pvp gear. It should be generally comparable in stats to PvE gear, yet it should have a small bonus that makes it preferable for PvP. This by no means should indicate that I want trial gear a requirement to do the trials, but from a min/max standpoint I feel it should outweigh crafted/pvp sets in terms of utility in trial situations.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is what the majority of the endgame PvE community is looking for, and when I look at the content that Zenimax plans to push out it appears to me that they want to keep this population healthy. Itemization is currently their biggest hurdle.

Again, what you're asking for limits the amount of gear one side chooses, and always leads to problems in the current system.

I mean you said it yourself.. You want your gear to be better then everything else in the game, and your solution for the PvP gear.. small bonuses aka PvP stats to separate it from the PvE gear.

All this will do is end up limiting the amount of gear either side uses while making this game the same copy cat failure that every past MMO has tried.

This is not the game for that....You're looking for a game called Wildstar, Rift, SWTOR, WoW, TSW... and countless other MMO's released that have tried that method.

So what, would you suggest, is the purpose of raiding in this game? Aside from the achievement, why even do it? You can get the best gear of the game 30 seconds after leveling to VR12, then you are done. So why do high end PvE content? This, quite obviously, is the hole in your argument that you are ignoring.

Who says gear has to be the only reward for raiding?

rashkosh127ub17_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Who says gear has to be the only reward for raiding?

It doesn't necessarily. However, in the current state of the game there is no valuable rewards for raiding, and even if they came up with a different valuable reward apart from gear, players of your mindset would still complain about it.

zbtiqua

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Who says gear has to be the only reward for raiding?

Suggest something better, or abandon your position.

Xsorus

zbtiqua wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Who says gear has to be the only reward for raiding?

Suggest something better, or abandon your position.

Skins, Unique Set Bonuses are just 2 off the top of my head...

and abandon my position of not breaking the game because you woot epic lewts from pve mobs? please....

timidobserver

I think they "thunk" too hard on this one. They should have just given this to level 50 enchanters as well as had it start appearing on various endgame drops, just like any other enchant.

zbtiqua

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Skins, Unique Set Bonuses are just 2 off the top of my head...

and abandon my position of not breaking the game because you woot epic lewts from pve mobs? please....

If the unique set bonuses are powerful, then this is identical to what everyone else is already advocating.

Skins, could be entertaining- I assume you mean costumes- but are unlikely to alone drive endgame PvE progression that takes weeks of wiping and strategy.

Again, your argument seems pretty empty and poorly thought-through.

Xsorus

zbtiqua wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Skins, Unique Set Bonuses are just 2 off the top of my head...

and abandon my position of not breaking the game because you woot epic lewts from pve mobs? please....

If the unique set bonuses are powerful, then this is identical to what everyone else is already advocating.

Skins, could be entertaining- I assume you mean costumes- but are unlikely to alone drive endgame PvE progression that takes weeks of wiping and strategy.

Again, your argument seems pretty empty and poorly thought-through.

You're assuming unique set bonuses means more powerful then current set bonuses in the game.

You need to get off that line of thinking. When I say unique set bonuses, i mean exactly that...If Normal Trials has 1 type of set bonuses, Hard Mode Trials would have a completely different set of set bonuses.

Your hope that this game will devolve into the crap that is WoW PvP needs to vanish with a quickness... because its not going to happen.

zbtiqua

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You're assuming unique set bonuses means more powerful then current set bonuses in the game.

You need to get off that line of thinking. When I say unique set bonuses, i mean exactly that...If Normal Trials has 1 type of set bonuses, Hard Mode Trials would have a completely different set of set bonuses.

Your hope that this game will devolve into the crap that is WoW PvP needs to vanish with a quickness... because its not going to happen.

So, the harder content has equally powerful gear that just has a few set bonuses shifted around?

Again, the question becomes: why do it?

Can you give an example of equally powerful gear with unique bonuses that would compel people to spend weeks clearing extremely difficult content? Because I don't think such a thing exists.

DDuke

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Skins, Unique Set Bonuses are just 2 off the top of my head...

and abandon my position of not breaking the game because you woot epic lewts from pve mobs? please....

If the unique set bonuses are powerful, then this is identical to what everyone else is already advocating.

Skins, could be entertaining- I assume you mean costumes- but are unlikely to alone drive endgame PvE progression that takes weeks of wiping and strategy.

Again, your argument seems pretty empty and poorly thought-through.

You're assuming unique set bonuses means more powerful then current set bonuses in the game.

You need to get off that line of thinking. When I say unique set bonuses, i mean exactly that...If Normal Trials has 1 type of set bonuses, Hard Mode Trials would have a completely different set of set bonuses.

Your hope that this game will devolve into the crap that is WoW PvP needs to vanish with a quickness... because its not going to happen.

The thing is, you have to match the rewards with the effort spent. If the rewards aren't worth it (read: powerful/good enough), people won't do it. You can't make hard modes have just as good set bonuses/stats as normal modes, it doesn't even make sense.

Lots of effort->good loot
Little effort->bad loot

Simple & logical, and doesn't have to mean PvE only. Maybe have and extra tier of PvP ranks after 50 that grant special gear with stats comparable to PvE loot? I'd be fine with that, once they fix AP "farming" & implement AoE caps to fix trains & blobbing.

Lastly, I don't see what WoW PvP has to do with this. ESO & WoW are vastly different games with different combat systems & core game mechanics.

In regards to some people being stronger than others due to gear, view it like this: there are already people stronger than others in PvP (VR12 vs lvl 10), how would this change things at all? If the VR12 has spent more time in the game, he deserves to be stronger than the lvl 10. It's called character progression. The exact same applies to gear.
Everyone has the chance to go do trials, go do PvP or gather gold/ingredients for crafting, what most of us need is a reason to do any of those.

If you want a casual MMO with no end-game and next to no gear progression you'd be happier with GW2...

If this was the aim of ESO, they would never have made Trials in the first place.

rashkosh127ub17_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Your hope that this game will devolve into the crap that is WoW PvP needs to vanish with a quickness... because its not going to happen.

You're very hung up on PvP. This game is not a pvp game. It has a fairly strong PvP element and Cyrodiil can be enjoyable, but it is far from competitive pvp, especially in small group circumstances where gear makes a significant impact. 95% of the game, and the majority of the development has gone into PvE.

Xsorus

going to edit this, mainly because trying to convince people on forums is pointless

DDuke

rashkosh127ub17_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Your hope that this game will devolve into the crap that is WoW PvP needs to vanish with a quickness... because its not going to happen.

You're very hung up on PvP. This game is not a pvp game. It has a fairly strong PvP element and Cyrodiil can be enjoyable, but it is far from competitive pvp, especially in small group circumstances where gear makes a significant impact. 95% of the game, and the majority of the development has gone into PvE.

Majority of development has gone into PvE, yet majority of PvE players aren't happy because there is not much reason to do any of that PvE content...

AA & Hel Ra have been cleared naked, if I'm not mistaken. That's how much gear matters in this game currently

timidobserver

DDuke wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I would really like a dev post on what their itemization goal/vision is. I really want to understand the logic behind placing garbage traits on endgame items.

100% This.

It seems to me that their team responsible of itemization is totally out of touch with the playerbase / haven't been informed about the concerns.

Why else repeat what happened with Crypt of Hearts? Most people run that dungeon only once to get the achievements, and then never touch it again (because there is no reason to, gearwise). If changes aren't made, all that effort made into creating Dragonstar Arena will be wasted, since people will have no reason of running it (except for the achievements).

We were promised "seasonal gear" a while ago (main reason that brought me back from my one month hiatus from the game), which hints at some kind of gear progression atleast.

Several questions that require answers:

a) What is the status with the "seasonal gear"? Will we be able to see some kind of gear progression at some point?

b) What is the reason behind "Exploration" and similar traits on VR13-14 loot from difficult end-game content? Isn't that gear supposed to be the strongest gear available to players?

c) Why are lower level item-sets simply being recycled for end-game content instead of creating new sets with interesting new bonuses? What's the deal with hardmode providing same gear as normal mode?


Would really appreciate answers.

What can I say. They listened to the complaints about useless traits on dropped endgame set items. Kudos to ZOS.

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2g8dto/some_news_from_the_live_stream_so_far/

kentgreigrwb17_ESO

If you know, at what time point in the replay of the live stream do they talk about sets having random traits? I skimmed it but never heard that part and that was all I really wanted to hear about.

EDIT: it is at 58 min, 18 sec or so. Gina talks about it

Also, can you enchant these ability altering weapons with additional enchantments? Or is that all there is?

R0M2K

Hmm if those skill-altering weaps could also be enchanted (while retaining the altering thingi) then they would be interesting

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

Anyone find the 2 hander yet?

This is what I'm waiting for too. 2H is in desperate need of a real spammable aoe move, and I still have hope that this might be their weird way of fixing it. Then again, looking at the other gear, probably not.

Both morphs of cleave are awesome for that right now, just no one tries or knows about them.

This, I love my carve morph, does respectable damage too. Only problem is the area affected is a bit small, the range isn't god awful but at least a little low, but the real problem is the frontal arc rather than pbaoe.

Unfortunately, pbaoes don't seem to give up any effectiveness by being pbaoes, and therefore seem superior in the long run to me. But that's really besides the point, cleave+morphs is pretty good right now.

People just see the dot and therefore are turned off from spamming it, methinks, and rightfully so imo. Personally I hate when people use or are forced to use insta damage+dot abilities like venom arrow and cleave to spam, it makes my ocd hurt.

Weaving Light Attack and Venom Arrow works really well. I don't much care about the poison DoT.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

Random Stats are okay but their should be a way to change Enchants and Glyphs through crafters, as well as in PvE their should never ever drop Legendary Gear. That as well should only be possible to update via crafting.

The Day, PvE Drops will be BIS without crafting is the day, Crafting will die instantly.

Honestly, crafting is far too powerful in this game as-is... when 90% of the best gear can be bought for gold and earned with no skill involved, just time spent grinding some cash... there's a big problem with the rewards system as a whole. Enchants and glyphs already can be changed on drops.

Just powerful enough. Yup, the Master Set does not impress this crafter.