Remove AoE caps

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Dude, you could have read , or at least skimmed the thread a bit before posting.
Especially when the post just before yours could have been addressed to you.

yes i did, if you happened to be talking to the privous poster. and just because some guy made some statements does not make them true. he is saying some things opposite to me. they are not facts they are opinions. im not convinced they are true. many people in the caps are good camp disagree with the points and if you happened to read the thread you would notice there are a lot on both sides.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

You can't go around and consider facts that annoy you opinions.

Not all of the post may apply to what you said, but your arguments have been addressed.
Anyway, I'll go again in greater details.

Here are some facts:
- Stacking is due to the target cap.
- stacking is a dominant strategy(look up game/decision theory)
- people that don't know about the cap spread out.
- ranged aoes are of maximum 6m radius.
- pbaoes are between 8 and 10m radius.
- aoes need a minimum amount of targets to be as efficient cost/damage than single target.

If you find yourself disagreeing with any of this, you're not expressing an opinion, you are being wrong.

As heals can be used up to 28m and grand healing has a radius of 8m, we can assume a large group would spread organicaly over a zone of 20m radius as inteligent agents try to heal/benefit from heals. That's what we can see in normal gameplay with people not exploiting the target cap. Not to mention that wall breaches are around that width too.

That's an area of 1256.64 m2.
For a group of 40, that's a player density of 0,0318 player per square meter.
For 24, that would be 0.019.

Of course these are average, and players flow during battle. We also can't asume players are perfectly stupid nor perfectly smart, but let's go for the worst case cenario of players never dodging, just to estimate the maximum power of aoes:

Lightning flood has a radius of 6m, an area of 113.097m2
For group of 24: 2,16 target hit.
For 40: 3,6 target hit.

Impulse, 8m, 201,062m2
24: 3,82
40: 6,30

So the worst case, with perfectly bad players, aoes can barely reach the 6 targets they are now guaranteed.

So to answer your post: No, 4 people won't be able to take on a zerg. They may be able to harass it, focus firing a few at a time and get away. But certainly not while defending.
What matters is that the fear of being one shotted will be sufficient to keep everyone on their toes.

Troponin

I am assuming that this was broken all because Sorcerers and DKs were too OP in AoE farming, or am I wrong in this? I dunno why you would ever make a change in PvE that doesn't effect anyone, but the outcome effects the very mechanics of PvP and breaks it.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

There are rarely any pve situations where the target cap took effect.
I think it was just a misguided move aimed at pvp.

But to be frank, I doubt anyone can rationalize why it was implemented, not until we get an explanation from the devs.

Troponin

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

There are rarely any pve situations where the target cap took effect.
I think it was just a misguided move aimed at pvp.

But to be frank, I doubt anyone can rationalize why it was implemented, not until we get an explanation from the devs.

Go watch some videos of Sorcerers and DKs AoE farming before the cap nerf.

Aldarenn

There are people still complaining about AoE caps? You probably complain when your zerg wipes.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Troponin wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

There are rarely any pve situations where the target cap took effect.
I think it was just a misguided move aimed at pvp.

But to be frank, I doubt anyone can rationalize why it was implemented, not until we get an explanation from the devs.

Go watch some videos of Sorcerers and DKs AoE farming before the cap nerf.

The cap was always there so there was no nerf. Aoe farming is just as efficient now than it was then.

Some abilities had, as a "bug", no target caps. But these were a handful and not those used to aoe farm as far as I know.

For better or for worse, encounters usualy are setup with less than the cap. So really, the knowledge of the cap only made it easier to know how many groups to pull to be most efficient.

But aoe farming isn't really "normal play". This system is most likely aimed at PvP where it is normal to have more than 6 targets.
Either way, this is where it is the most destructive.

nathantaco wrote: »

There are people still complaining about AoE caps? You probably complain when your zerg wipes.

Well, target caps still haven't been removed, have they?
In a way, you are right, we shouldn't have to still talk about this. It should be fixed already.

The game has some issues, and that's okay, but the target cap is an actual design flaw.
A game cannot have an healthy meta when there are vastly superior tactics enabled by ridiculous mechanics.
If you are familiar with decision theory, stacking is a dominant strategy. This means a limited gamespace with little meaningful choice.
At this point in time, if you don't stack, you are doing it wrong.

If it weren't for me enjoying the pve, I personnaly would have unsubscribed due to it. Most probably did, and some others still are leaving now.
But as I saw the game at release before we knew about the caps, and I play on haderus which had little stacking until recently, I know the potential the AvA has.

I am also hyped by the quakecon stream and I beleive the game is worth spending time on the forums since I saw it. I even got 7 friends to buy the game by saying the game has a great futur ahead.

However, the first time they got in pvp and saw the stacking, they said "this is ***" and logged off.

If you enjoy shallow and repetitive gameplay, good for you. But next time, don't be a *** to those who want the game to improve.

ThyIronFist

And another one.

Good job Zenimax, you've clearly succeeded at meaking awesome AvA PvP that you guys promised. *rollseyes*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=882JKlFucAw

Vizier

No AOE cap isn't going to fix a damn thing and in fact will just power up everyone with more ultimate...like that is what we need.

Sure in theory small groups become more effective vs larger groups. I just don't see it fixing the problem except within size limits of certain group / Zergs. The issue is more fundamental than that.

Add player model collision. Fix NB skills. Fix BE. Increase Stamina Effectiveness.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

It's not about zerg vs small groups, it's about removing a dominant strategy from the game to add variety to the gameplay.

Also, It is important to not confuse potential damage and effective damage.
WIthout target caps, people will spread out whenever possible so aoe attacks will actually become less potent. It will go from 6 guaranteed targets to around 2 to 4 depending on the situation.

Tamanous

Everyone keeps calling this issue "AOE caps" as that is how most here are looking at it but seeing the amount of time ZoS is mulling over this issue, there may be many more systems impacted in the fix.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Well aoe caps are the root cause and their reveal was the trigger to many of the problematic behaviors we can see in the game.

It's akway better to name the diseases rather than the symptoms.

Also, it isn't a complex issue. It's just that zos has a very slow decision process.
Look at how slow they are at changing even the smallest numeric value. It's just their style.

synnerman

TBH , I don't really care how they sort it whether it be AoE caps or other measures, what I do care about is that every day for weeks now I have been begging for some input from devs on this since a month ago when Brian Wheeler told us the combat team were discussing it.
I left WoW 7 months ago and have played this from early access and I can wait for class balances and bugs to be fixed but in 6-8 weeks time I will cancel my sub if this zergball impulse blob PvP isn't addressed and just go back to WoW and its the same with many of my guildies.
I love this game and its superior graphics but when there is constant lag on all areas of cyrodiil because 1 faction takes the lead and the other 2 pulse spamming grps come into one area and there are 20 sec delays in actions and no one can damage each other and finally as has happened every single day this week on Thornblade EU server crashes and rollbacks it will be time to call it a day .
I actually don't know what's worse me checking every PTS patch and seeing no action or not a single answer from any Dev when I have asked them on several individual thread just for an update.

I ask once again can we get an update on the situation or is it a case there is no update because you now daren't touch the impulse tactic because all the PvErs use it to smash the trials etc. If that's the case let me know and I and my guildies will leave through the side door and let you get on with it.

ThyIronFist

Vizier wrote: »

No AOE cap isn't going to fix a damn thing and in fact will just power up everyone with more ultimate...like that is what we need.

Um, no. All they need is to add an Ultimate cap.

Example: you hit 20 people, but you only get Ultimate from 6 people.

Nobody wants Ultimate spam.

Vizier

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

No AOE cap isn't going to fix a damn thing and in fact will just power up everyone with more ultimate...like that is what we need.

Um, no. All they need is to add an Ultimate cap.

Example: you hit 20 people, but you only get Ultimate from 6 people.

Nobody wants Ultimate spam.

Well now that's a thought I didn't consider. If an ultimate cap was in place I might actually be able to get behind opening things up a bit.

Good counter.