Remove AoE caps

ThyIronFist

Dear Zenimax devs, is this how you want your PvP?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFTVmQmFPe4

It's been going on like this for many, many weeks now and it's getting beyond ridiculous. The lag, the crashes, fps-drops, all of that is happening due to this nonsene: Impulse spamming zergballs.

15 minutes after that Alessia fight, a scroll got captured, and guess what? Uber-lag everywhere.

You don't need some master genius to figure out what's causing these issues in PvP. It's quite obvious, but sometimes I wonder if ZOS is aware of this. Brian Wheeler said there were active discussions going on about the AoE cap 2 weeks ago. I wonder if they are still having that discussion...

You did not have any of this garbage in the beta and in the baby days when ESO was launched. PvP in ESO is becoming a giant lagging zergballfest with dress-wearing, staff-wielding vampires. (oh wait it already is). They have until my sub runs out (about 2 months) and then me, and some guildies will be gone. It's pathetic that we're paying a subscription for this game and the PvP in its current state.

AoE caps are killing the game. Remove the AoE caps. Jesus Christ.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

Samadhi

I'd settle for an update saying that they have agreed to remove AoE caps and are currently working on coding the mechanics into game for 1.4.

Myrdrett

A: I love the music. Can we integrate this music as official batttlemusic in this game ?

B: Zenimax - give us AOE-Mezz - Duraton: 25 SeconzZzZz ZzZzZ zZzZzZz ZzZzZ

synnerman

What an absolute embarrassment that that fight was , no abilities were working, hardly any damage being taken or given even though we were standing in the middle of it. Eventually I died and as I lay there dead I crashed and it took me 10 mins to get back into the game , I logged in dead at the Northern morrowind gate.

Its been the same every single time we get anywhere near the yellow zergball and the same with the blue ones aswell, lagging no abilities working and crashes and yesterday losing a scroll as the server crashed and rolled back .

3 weeks ago almost Brian Wheeler said the combat teams were discussing this and since then nothing despite me asking him in 2 other threads for a response. Its ruining the game its crashing the server and lagging it out and makes taking the last keeps/ scrolls absolutely farcical. I am writing this once again as my fellow guildies have logged off in disgust and have said exactly as the OP ...If this is not addressed we will be unsubbing, its beyond a joke to pay for this.

So I ask once again can we get some clarification as to what is going to be done about this? This is not just a game mechanic problem its making the game unplayable in large battles and with no AoE caps or some other change to stop this impulse spam , every battle is turning into a large battle and the lag is a permanent fixture around keeps etc etc .
I've said this before I dread to think what the imperial city and the sewer entrances will be like with impulse blobs a permanent fixture there, but tbh as we see that isn't coming for at least another 10-12 weeks if it comes in update 5 I and many others probably wont see it because we won't be here and what a shame that would be .
I am hoping there will be some light at the end of the tunnel in the PTS Notes next week. Please ZoS let us know whats happening.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Even if they haven't reached a decision (don't know what could be so hard) it would be great to know what prompted them to implemented such system.
It's known to be a problem both on paper and in practice.
They must have had very convincing reasons to implement it, reasons they shouldn't be ashamed to share with us.

That, or, somewhere at zos, there is a very charismatic dude that manages to convince people even when he's wrong.

xbalint.vargaxprb19_ESO

so many thread about aoe cap...now im pretty sure they will remove it soon.
ah cant wait that day. i kinda missed the first batswarm exploit until its last days due to slower leveling, but with this i can relive it again. thx, whiners.

c0rp

@zos_BrianWheeler @zos_MattFiror obviously do not play in Cyrodiil or they would realize how TERRIBLE Cyrodiil is with the AoE cap BS and remove it.

The fact that they seem to be "alright" with this gameplay just flabbergasts me.

Pardon my French..but that video just makes me realize how *** stupid PVP in Cyrodiil is now.

synnerman

xbalint.vargaxprb19_ESO wrote: »

so many thread about aoe cap...now im pretty sure they will remove it soon.
ah cant wait that day. i kinda missed the first batswarm exploit until its last days due to slower leveling, but with this i can relive it again. thx, whiners.

I think you need to watch that video again and say its about whining.. The game lagged to a halt on the breach , hardly any damage and any skills , couldn't even use a siege weapon etc. Look at the guy capturing it he's running around 40 enemies spamming impulse. Its breaking the game and I would rather be killed 100 times by a bat spammer (although the days of ultra low ultimate's are gone) than have my game crashed and even worse be put back in a 1hr queue because of the crash.

After that we took a scroll and got hit by the train again and we all just stood there looking at the scroll lagging out and no one able to pick it up from either side.

ArconSeptim

Op mora da je sa balkana ili iz rusije hahahah

KBKB

loved the music

Krinaman

"The lag, the crashes, fps-drops, all of that is happening due to this nonsene: Impulse spamming zergballs."

Meh, my FPS drops when I walk into a town with more than 5 people not a single one impulsing. I guess you could say they were zergballing the banker though.

synnerman

Krinaman wrote: »

"The lag, the crashes, fps-drops, all of that is happening due to this nonsene: Impulse spamming zergballs."

Meh, my FPS drops when I walk into a town with more than 5 people not a single one impulsing. I guess you could say they were zergballing the banker though.

Try watching the video, if you think the little fps drop in a town/city is anything like that then you're deluded or need a new pc.

Columba

Removing aoe caps will create more problems than it solves. Slowly increase, test, get results adjust. The problem statement is "How might we improve diversity of game play and may the game more enjoyable for all play styles?" Defining the problem properly is the correct first step. aoe cap removal is one of many solutions. Don't jump to a random solution. bad design.

Krinaman

Didn't say it was like the video. Just pointing out that FPS drops occur whenever you have players around each other. The video shows a lot more people than in the typical town so not so surprisingly the FPS dropped even more.

The point being that trying to blame a single skill for the problem is just silly. Put a bunch of people near each other whether in a zergball or spread out in a keep casting skills and the game can't handle it. Removing AOE caps will do nothing to stop that unless it results in a large number of people quitting PvP.

Samadhi

I miss the days of beta and early access, when people didn't ball up to exploit AoE caps.

After ZOS announced AoE caps, it has become progressively more difficult for me to play as a Single-Target spec.
The game was more fun as a Single-Target character when people spread out due to fear of AoEs and it was easier to find single-targets to fight. AoE caps have been entirely detrimental to my playstyle, even though I don't AoE.

I'll be glad when ZOS fixes this horrendous issue, and all the off-shoot issues it causes.

I have hope that @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ will do what benefits the community, after having to see how much damage the AoE caps have done.

synnerman

Krinaman wrote: »

Didn't say it was like the video. Just pointing out that FPS drops occur whenever you have players around each other. The video shows a lot more people than in the typical town so not so surprisingly the FPS dropped even more.

The point being that trying to blame a single skill for the problem is just silly. Put a bunch of people near each other whether in a zergball or spread out in a keep casting skills and the game can't handle it. Removing AOE caps will do nothing to stop that unless it results in a large number of people quitting PvP.

Just think what you're saying , yes there are more people there because its a blob and its a blob that's very hard to kill because of the AoE cap, so to defend or attack a target with a blob on it more and more people come , its either that or just say ahhh let them through and take the keep/resource/scroll.

Remove the caps and blobs wont be so attractive to run in because 10 people could wipe them and they wont feel so brave . The amount of effects and data being produced by constant spamming of 100 people in the same zone just lags it out.

Come to Thornblade EU and have a fight with just normal skills and yes theres some lag but the difference is massive when the blobs arrive as I have experience lag, total freeze, server crash and rollback.

Kypho

remove caps, and cut the dmg down very low.

pulse now can hit 6 target. remove aoe cap, pulse hit unlimited target... 3 pulse.... 3xall around without cap.... great ballance whiners..... just lower dmg into ground so ppl will at least fight not just spam idiotic aoe crap.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@Columba‌ , that's not true.
Increasing the cap would only mean increasing the barrier of entry to exploit the mechanic. It would make it worst for the majority of the population.
And issues arised after the discovery of the caps, not before. You cannot argue that removing the cause of a negative effect would be nefast.
Not to mention that, at least in pvp, nothing positive came out of target caps.

@Krinaman‌ on paper, you aren't entirely wrong. But in practice, beta week ends and the launch of the game before the discovery of the caps had better performances. It was actually smoother with far more people online.

The thing is, with caps and stacking, the servers have many more unnecessary computation to do.
Take for example smart healing on grand healing. In a stack, it has to do a sort operation on an increased number of targets to determine which 6 are the lowest in hp. It has to do it for each tick of each instance of the spell.
Sorting operations are costly, and they would have to be done atomicaly to have exact results. This means locking the states of potential target until done or risk having someone that should have been healed ignored.
For damage spells it's even worst. If I recall correctly, they mentionned getting the 6 targets closest to impact. That's not just comparing a number but making calculation at each element to reorder in the list.

The combination of more calculations, having to freeze the game to get correct results and longer lists due to stacking makes aoe caps a VERY costly mechanic.

Columba

so increasing the caps is bad but making it infinity is better? not sure I get the logic.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

Yep. Every siege is now just people stacking up and charging the hole in the wall. No more making 5+ holes to get multiple groups in separately and avoid getting destroyed, just stack up and follow Leroy Jenkins!

hamon

Columba wrote: »

so increasing the caps is bad but making it infinity is better? not sure I get the logic.

the guy above just explained it . read what he wrote. caps mean the server has to decide who each spell hits and who it doesnt , and smart heals have to calculate who needs the heal.

now when large numbers are stacked together all spamming aoe the sheer volume of calculations slows the server down.
now if caps go not only can you force people to split you ease the load on the server calculations. cos it just hits everybody in range.

Columba

well it then has other calculations to do, so not sure it helps.

hamon

Columba wrote: »

well it then has other calculations to do, so not sure it helps.

yes it has all the calculations it normally does for stuff... except the calculations to decide who gets hit and who doesn't get hit... which means less. less calculations means less server stress...

hope thats cleared that up now.

Krinaman

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Krinaman‌ on paper, you aren't entirely wrong. But in practice, beta week ends and the launch of the game before the discovery of the caps had better performances. It was actually smoother with far more people online.

And since that weekend they added whatever code they added for 1.3(?) that completely broke the FPS. They since "fixed" it making it better but far worse than what it was prior.

synnerman

Krinaman wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Krinaman‌ on paper, you aren't entirely wrong. But in practice, beta week ends and the launch of the game before the discovery of the caps had better performances. It was actually smoother with far more people online.

And since that weekend they added whatever code they added for 1.3(?) that completely broke the FPS. They since "fixed" it making it better but far worse than what it was prior.

Ok Krinaman, I see you posting against this on every single thread about AoE. Give us the benefit of your wisdom and tell us what will stop the blobs that are making my guildies and other people leave PvP/The game???

I cant wait to see 3 -4 impulse blobs defending the imperial city entrances in the sewers. So
come on tell us whats the answer?

ThyIronFist

Good news guys, part 2 of the Awesome PvP montage will be arriving shortly!

In the upcoming video you will clearly see how great the game has become ever since ZOS announced the AoE caps, and you will also be able to see the impulse causing a Chernobyl meltdown.

ThyIronFist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFXNri1ZPqo&feature=youtu.be

^_^

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

rendolpheb16_ESO

It's been a long time that thoses kind of thread are running and I think ZoS don't give a *** about AoE cap.

I remember a poll that someone made and more then 80% of people agreed to remove AoE cap and they didn't do anything. Couple of thousand people voted for that.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Columba wrote: »

so increasing the caps is bad but making it infinity is better? not sure I get the logic.

Of course, there is the calculation aspect, but a higher cap won't make it much worst. Once the list is ordered, picking the 6 or 20 first is not much harder.
The sorting is what makes it bad, so a mechanic that requires you to sort will be costly, no matter how many of the results you pick.

But what I also meant by increasing the barrier of entry is that if you increase the target cap, the advantage of stacking is still present but only benefits the largest groups.
Everyone bellow cap +1 don't have a passive dodge chance. If only one guild has access to cap +1 people, then they have an incredible advantage over the rest of the server.
If the cap is 20, members of a group of 21 have 4.76% chances of not being hit by an aoe, compared to a group of 20.
Just for one additional member.

This is why increasing the cap is not a solution at all technically, and makes it worst by design.

Cogo

AE caps are fine.

Seams like the "problem" for some players is that lots of players have different builds and are better or worse skilled at playing.

It starting to show whos good or not to PLAY, not just what skill they use.

Krinaman

synnerman wrote: »

Ok Krinaman, I see you posting against this on every single thread about AoE. Give us the benefit of your wisdom and tell us what will stop the blobs that are making my guildies and other people leave PvP/The game???

I cant wait to see 3 -4 impulse blobs defending the imperial city entrances in the sewers. So
come on tell us whats the answer?

IMO it really doesn't matter what you do, even removing caps won't stop groups from organizing and rolling over less organized groups. Which is what this discussion is really about. You could reduce them stacking right on top of each other by changing the group mechanics. I.E. allowing group members to synergize even when not near, get heals, etc. Of course that just encourages groups to form whereas now players can get group benefits just by being near other players. This would allow players to spread out more and still get the benefits but at the end of the day the easiest way to stay together is stay close.

The best course of action is really just balancing skills so stacked groups aren't so powerful. I.E. fixing the stacked barrier bug greatly reduced the advantage blobs had. Remove smart AOE heals and the benefits of stacking are greatly reduced.

You talk about people quitting over blobs but you don't consider how many will quit over uncapped AOEs. My first PvP experience in this game was watching OP DK/Vamps slaughtering people via uncapped AOEs. I just turned around and left PvP and went back to PvE till they fixed it. I honestly find it amazing that people refer to those days as the "good ole days"

Another MMO I played had 20v20 pvp with uncapped AOEs. All the mages did was stand back cast AOEs at the choke points and easily topped the leaderboard in every match by a large margin. The forums complained about it endlessly and of course people quit over it.

You worry about 3-4 impulse blobs defending the city meanwhile I worry about a stack of players with uncapped AOEs defending the city. A couple of banners and bat swarms and no one will ever get through. You won't even get the luxury of punching more holes. Even with no change it will likely be a huge oil farm requiring people to stack to get through.

Ultimately I oppose uncapped AOEs because it won't fix the problem and it will create even bigger ones.