ZOS hates stamina/melee and wants it to die!

thorspark

Yup, Stamina Regen needs real love from ZOS.

I made suggestions about it last week here

TehMagnus

thorspark wrote: »

Yup, Stamina Regen needs real love from ZOS.

I made suggestions about it last week here

Regen softcaps have been increased and there are armorsets that boost the regen. Have you tried that? At least I'm happy someone is trying to experiment with stamina after patch instead of just crying.

Jaxom

thorspark wrote: »

I'm running a stamina build on my DK The Fiery Knight.
I'm running a stamina/vampire build with DW on my NB.
I'm running a magicka build on my sorcerer.

Since the update, I can output AS MUCH DPS with my stamina build (soft caped weapon damage) as with my magicka build, AoE (2k+), Single Target (900-1k3) for approximatively 30-40 seconds (using 2 pots).
Then I run dry on stamina and get a huge dps loss. I tried to find a way to get stamina back, but there isn't. Not like resto HA, not like Spell Symmetry or class skills. There's just no way at the moment to sustain the good dps.

Anastasia Said :
Only being able to use two Stam abilities and then three OTHER is not what Magicka based users get to choose from to find a very optimum build. Why should those who want a Stam build have to? And be happy about it??

Did you see magicka builds ? All of them ALSO use 3 utility spells >> Inner light, Spell Symmetry, CC, damage boost ...
The best rotation at the moment for a magicka user is just to spam LA Weaving with Crushing Shock/Scalding Rune and maybe a dot to refresh placed on the second Bar most of the time.
There's no difference with a Stamina build, you use 1 or 2 weapon/warrior skills for dps, and leave the rest for utility.

The problem with Stamina is not its dps (well, could be 5-10% more to be on par with staves), it's the stamina sustain that is just not viable.

Hey @thorspark, I'm currently in the testing phases of using Focused Attacks (NB Haste Morph) as a means for Stamina sustain. I'm sitting at 120 Stamina Regen currently. I'm thinking that popping this skill once every 20s in conjunction with stamina pots will give us the stamina sustain we are missing. Now, this wouldnt work for non-NB stamina builds, but if we are able to not run out of Stamina without having to resort to Siphoning Attacks, we may be able to hit that magic 700 dps number for bosses lasting longer than 30s.

thorspark

I have done many trys with stamina builds and these are my conclusions :

• There is a lot of ways to boost stamina regen, but it's softcapped at 162 (or so) which is more or less 81/sec. Even with a huge cost reduction (20% weapon, 14% armor, jewelry glyphs), you still use skills that cost 200+ stamina in your main rotation, meaning 120 stamina lost/sec.
• Assuming you have 2600 stamina and use a stamina ability every 1.5 sec (with LA weaving), you still run dry at 40 second, or 50 second using pots.
• Magicka users don't have the same problem as they can pop spell symmetry or DOT the ennemy and use Resto HA to replenish magicka without a big dps loss.
• Using a stamina spell that costs 200+ leaves you with one stam attack every 3 sec when you run out, that's just a huge dps loss.

If you're really good, you can sustain a 1k dps for 50s>1min but that's it. In the meantime, with a magicka build, you can sustain a 1.2k dps AS LONG AS YOU WANT if there's a heal behind you.

That's why I proposed the berserk spell in my thread, to sacrifice armor for stamina.

Jaxom

thorspark wrote: »

I have done many trys with stamina builds and these are my conclusions :

• There is a lot of ways to boost stamina regen, but it's softcapped at 162 (or so) which is more or less 81/sec. Even with a huge cost reduction (20% weapon, 14% armor, jewelry glyphs), you still use skills that cost 200+ stamina in your main rotation, meaning 120 stamina lost/sec.
• Assuming you have 2600 stamina and use a stamina ability every 1.5 sec (with LA weaving), you still run dry at 40 second, or 50 second using pots.
• Magicka users don't have the same problem as they can pop spell symmetry or DOT the ennemy and use Resto HA to replenish magicka without a big dps loss.
• Using a stamina spell that costs 200+ leaves you with one stam attack every 3 sec when you run out, that's just a huge dps loss.

If you're really good, you can sustain a 1k dps for 50s>1min but that's it. In the meantime, with a magicka build, you can sustain a 1.2k dps AS LONG AS YOU WANT if there's a heal behind you.

That's why I proposed the berserk spell in my thread, to sacrifice armor for stamina.

Interesting. I suppose when they add the Magicka to Stamina skill with Spellcrafting, this would be a thing of the past?

thorspark

It depends on the spell. Stamina builds also use magicka skills for utility without cost reduction so they run out of magicka pretty quick too.
A spell like dark exchange (sorcerer) is useful on paper, but not used because sorcerers use stamina for dodging/blocking and don't waste it in magicka regen.

The only viable option IMO is sacrificing armor/life (meaning sacrificing survavibility) to sustain dps.

Jaxom

thorspark wrote: »

It depends on the spell. Stamina builds also use magicka skills for utility without cost reduction so they run out of magicka pretty quick too.
A spell like dark exchange (sorcerer) is useful on paper, but not used because sorcerers use stamina for dodging/blocking and don't waste it in magicka regen.

The only viable option IMO is sacrificing armor/life (meaning sacrificing survavibility) to sustain dps.

That's a shame. Maybe there is something in the Dark Brotherhood/Thief Guild lines that will help us once released(next year). I'll still play around with Focused Attacks. You never know, some odd combinations are always being found.

Also, apparently someone doesn't like any of my posts because I have a LOL on each one. Oh well. I guess some people don't like actual discussion instead of the complaining that plagues the forums.

thorspark

Focused attacks, like Green Dragon Blood for DKs is a way to reach stamina regen soft cap easily (so you can get cost reduction on jewelry) and it's all you can do right now.

Maybe you have a LOLer that felt in love with you, watch your back.

TehMagnus

thorspark wrote: »

I have done many trys with stamina builds and these are my conclusions :

• There is a lot of ways to boost stamina regen, but it's softcapped at 162 (or so) which is more or less 81/sec. Even with a huge cost reduction (20% weapon, 14% armor, jewelry glyphs), you still use skills that cost 200+ stamina in your main rotation, meaning 120 stamina lost/sec.
• Assuming you have 2600 stamina and use a stamina ability every 1.5 sec (with LA weaving), you still run dry at 40 second, or 50 second using pots.
• Magicka users don't have the same problem as they can pop spell symmetry or DOT the ennemy and use Resto HA to replenish magicka without a big dps loss.
• Using a stamina spell that costs 200+ leaves you with one stam attack every 3 sec when you run out, that's just a huge dps loss.

If you're really good, you can sustain a 1k dps for 50s>1min but that's it. In the meantime, with a magicka build, you can sustain a 1.2k dps AS LONG AS YOU WANT if there's a heal behind you.

That's why I proposed the berserk spell in my thread, to sacrifice armor for stamina.

What about different bleed effects & poisons applied to weapons or skills that could create some kind of dot effect (which is the source of DPS for mages)?.

Edit: As for stamina, there is always the option of blessed shards, it is used in trials on some occasions for the tank but is single target.

thorspark

The best option for weapon enchantment in a stamina build is the Glyph of Absorb Stamina

The monumantal legendary one does : Deals 36 Magic Damage and restores 16 Stamina.

Since 1.3.3, the enchantment procs on weapon skills (only on light/heavy attacks before)

Also, I will try to Combine this with the Torug's Pact set (Spell Power, Max Health, Weapon dmg and Enchantment upgrade)
The fifth effect of the set reduces enchantment CD by 1 sec and improve it by 30%.

This would mean a 21 stamina back every 3 seconds (still not much, but at least you still do dps in the meantime). Still needs to be tested.

Xiroku

You can easily be a pure magicka user, but you can't focus solely on stamina which is what a lot of people would like to do(play how you want, etc), you HAVE to use magicka.

When building your character you either focus on damage, survivability, or sustainability, magicka is able to do all three. Stamina can barely do any of them. Regen amounts are not enough to sustain ability costs or magicka and stamina. The cap is 176 or so at v12. That amount every 2 seconds is nice but you need to sacrifice so much to get it.

My suggestion, may be a little extreme, but is to remove magicka/stamina regen completely and all magicka/stamina returns that exist skill/attack wise. Make magicka/stamina regen 10-15% every 2 seconds, that way the amount we gain back will be determined by what our max amount is in those resource pools. Then make weapon skills except the staffs, have no cost whatsoever. Elder Scroll games never had "weapon abilities" that costed stamina, only dodge, sprint, heavy attacks, jumping, in some light attacks, so making everything that did cost stamina in the single player games along with typical MMO skills, is too much resource drain, especially when we have no way to gain stamina back besides potions and the base regen amount. Weapon abilities could be given cooldowns instead of resource costs if just no resource cost is too much. Next, I say remove all cost reductions and adjust skill costs to compensate for it. There are jewelry enchants that reduce magicka/stamina skill costs, but how many really use them? The amount they give is insignificant compared to getting spell/weapon damage. This would also ease up on light armor being so master race, everyone would have the same skill costs regardless of armor.


As for armor....each should have a distinct focus and be damn good at it. Light could be spell damage/critical, medium could be weapon damage/critical, then heavy armor could be damage/critical mitigation + survivability, this would be mean armor/spell resistance would need to be a lot higher or formula reworked to reduce more damage. Armor/spell pen could then be removed with light/medium armor effecting damage amounts themselves, this could also open up more build options by mix and matching different armor types.


When I first played ESO, I wanted to be a pure stam user, using melee weapons and what not, but I couldn't, magicka builds were just too alluring in how effective they were compared to stamina.




and that's it, don't hurt me. ><

thorspark

@Xiroku : That could be a good idea but it's really too far from what is easily doable. You talk about redesigning the very mechanics of the game.

When I see how far we were 2 months ago in balancing, I think that it's a matter of 1-2 months before we get a balanced system between classes and stamina/magicka while remaining on the actual mechanics.

Heishi

basically what they need to do is have skills divided into "physical" and "magical" rather than "class" and "weapon".

Even still as it is I find plenty of use for stamina. Mostly in builds similar to the last highlight build "True Assassin" or whatever it was called, where rather than focusing on resource management you can drain one then the other while the first recharges.

Obscure

thorspark wrote: »

The best option for weapon enchantment in a stamina build is the Glyph of Absorb Stamina

The monumantal legendary one does : Deals 36 Magic Damage and restores 16 Stamina.

Since 1.3.3, the enchantment procs on weapon skills (only on light/heavy attacks before)

Also, I will try to Combine this with the Torug's Pact set (Spell Power, Max Health, Weapon dmg and Enchantment upgrade)
The fifth effect of the set reduces enchantment CD by 1 sec and improve it by 30%.

This would mean a 21 stamina back every 3 seconds (still not much, but at least you still do dps in the meantime). Still needs to be tested.

Use powered weapons as well. Legendary powered weapons reduce the CD by 50%. Depending on how the two stack up the CD is reduced to either 1 second (4 seconds - 50% - 1 second) or 1.5 seconds (4 seconds - 1 second - 50%). Either way it's noticeably short. Been doing this setup for awhile, and with the recent patch for 30% increased enchant effect, and the fix to make them proc on weapon skills I've noticed a bump in DPS.

Still better off just using a Resto staff =/

TehMagnus

As long as the dps of the damage dealers is > to 700 or 800 and you still have a couple of casters in the group, you can still complete trials.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Well all these interesting things to get more stamina for DPS, a Magicka build can also do and still do better than the stamina build doing the same thing.

There are still way better item sets for magicka builds than there are for stamina builds. They make sure of it.

Xiroku

thorspark wrote: »

@Xiroku : That could be a good idea but it's really too far from what is easily doable. You talk about redesigning the very mechanics of the game.

When I see how far we were 2 months ago in balancing, I think that it's a matter of 1-2 months before we get a balanced system between classes and stamina/magicka while remaining on the actual mechanics.

They're redesigning the Veteran Rank system, they already overhauled set effects and how you start out after the Wailing Prison. Overhauling more isn't out of the question, it's more if they want to do it, or try to make their current set up work.

Spellcrafting is seriously going to make or break this topic, it's giving magicka even more viability, unless some of those spells will end up costing stamina. Then there's the Champion System, that helps everyone, depending on what all passive are in it.

Rune_Relic

magnusnet wrote: »

Yet another rant post of people that want their PVP stamina builds to be as effective in trials as magicka builds that ONLY work in trials and are thought & theorycrafted FOR trials. This is getting old.

Errrr yeah. Thats the point

Sumpfheini

It's not only the lack of stamina regen that's bad. I think it is actually a valid concept that weapon skills are not spammed like casters do. Light/Heavy Attacks should just have way more impact if you focus on a physical damage build with few but powerful stamina abilities in between.

Cody

my only problem is that a lot of my stuff gets blocked(a staff blocking arrows? lol.) otherwise, I don't think NB archers are as horrible as they used to be. I don't use dual wield, so I don't know the state of it. I think the problem lies with the NB class itself, but that's not in line with the point of this thread.

khele23eb17_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

Yet another rant post of people that want their PVP stamina builds to be as effective in trials as magicka builds that ONLY work in trials and are thought & theorycrafted FOR trials. This is getting old.

And where is my theorycrafted stamina build that only works in trials?