Heavy Armor and game design decisions or Will we ever be able to DPS in heavy armor?

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Yusuf wrote: »

What did you expect, srsly,why don't we all wear paperbags around our waists and call it a day.
Next thing people gonna ask for is being able to do top-notch-dps naked.

Yeah you're right, it's ridiculous. Light should be the only armor you can do everything in.

pantaro30

I refuse to be told my orc can't wear heavy armor and rock a two handed mace!

Khivas_Carrick

pantaro30 wrote: »

I refuse to be told my orc can't wear heavy armor and rock a two handed mace!

Hear Hear!

Shaun98ca2

I have played up to level 49 currently wearing only HA via DPS, Healer, Melee. In dungeons I run as a healer so if people don't like a HA Healer they can pss off lol.

Khivas_Carrick

That won't work too well later on, trust me on that one.

I55UE5

I am not expecting to be able to provide more DPS in Heavy Armor compared to Light or Medium. Though I am expecting to not get stomped into the ground quicker than the other two.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

I55UE5 wrote: »

I am not expecting to be able to provide more DPS in Heavy Armor compared to Light or Medium. Though I am expecting to not get stomped into the ground quicker than the other two.

Not more, equal (or within a reasonable amount, 5ish% would be fine).

Even if it means having to use up another skill slot to do so, like how light have to shield themselves when tanking.

Marthenil

Well melee, as it stands, SHOULD be able to provide more DPS than ranged in my opinion, due to all the inherent risks with being in melee along with the reduced uptime on bosses.
Otherwise it's the good ole staff and LA forever. Perhaps bow too, if they balance it.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Marthenil wrote: »

Well melee, as it stands, SHOULD be able to provide more DPS than ranged in my opinion, due to all the inherent risks with being in melee along with the reduced uptime on bosses.
Otherwise it's the good ole staff and LA forever. Perhaps bow too, if they balance it.

Well yes and no I reckon.

In medium armor, maybe. It would need a lot of trial and error to get the numbers right and not disadvantage ranged/casters.

In heavy you could just make it equal and expect them to just soak more damage over the course of a fight.

I'd still be leaning more toward equality than superiority though.

Rune_Relic

No.... DPS should be identical IMHO.
Heavy should use 2h and do massive damage but the strike time suffers.
Medium armour use 1h+1h and do medium damage with medium strike time.
Light armour should use daggers with minimal damage but have a rapid strike
time.

Heavy armour should get a transient stance bonus cancelled by stun.
Medium armour should get a transient block bonus cancelled by cripple.
Light armour should get a transient dodge bonus cancelled by snare.
.....and...
I would add robes with a transient teleport bonus cancelled with charm.

But I would also have caps something like....
Heavy armour = 80% physical and 20% magicka resistance
Medium armour = 60% physical and 40% magicka resist
light armour = 40% physical and 60% magicka resist
robe = 20% physical and 80% magicka resist
Heavy shield= 15% physical and 0% magicka resistance
Medium shield= 10% physical and 5% magicka resist
light shield = 5% physical and 10% magicka resist
none = 0% physical and 15% magicka resist

My thinking is magicka always relied on freedom of movement and non metals as they interfered with magic. Mages are also more likely yo use wards so the magicka resist of the armour should reflect that.

I would also extend the idea much further matching craft skill to fighter/assassin/thief/mage archetypes, adding explosives and matching up explosive+provisions / poisons+potions / prayers+chants&traps / destruction+restoration. Hence the stun/cripple/snare/charm above.

Anyway, never gonna happen. I like to fantasise and play around though...lol.

eliisra

Marthenil wrote: »

Well melee, as it stands, SHOULD be able to provide more DPS than ranged in my opinion, due to all the inherent risks with being in melee along with the reduced uptime on bosses.
Otherwise it's the good ole staff and LA forever. Perhaps bow too, if they balance it.

But than everyone would be forced to play mele in trials and endgame PvE content. Slot one gap closer and one ranged ability for disconnects, than all blob up on top of the boss, melting it with 2-Hander or DW. We would be back at square one, the same rubbish all over again. Not able to play the way we want to.

There has to be multiple different armour- and weapon types, class- and skill line combinations, that all delivers the same competitive AoE and ST dps. Only way to achieve balance and diversity.

I personally feel that heavy should be a solid and competitive option for mele dps like 2-Hander. Should also be great for for tanking.

Problem right now is the lack of crit and sustained. Achieving less critical hits not only gimps the dps, but also nerfs the ultimate gain for a heavy user. But it's the lack of skill reduction passives that nerfs heavy armour the most. Needs major buffing and I dont know why ZoS is so slow about it. Heavy's been hopeless since beta.

Khivas_Carrick

ZoS if afraid of a giant supernerf or buff that will leave thing swimming in a pool of bad-stuff.

Ironically them failing to act faster achieves the exact same effect but a far worse rate. Seriously, look at this game, it's dying already because they can't pull their heads out of their asses and focus on what's important instead of trying to release updates nobody has done yet or make the pretty game prettier.

Stupid ***, damn near all of them.

MorHawk

Marthenil wrote: »

It has become quite apparent that heavy armor is pigeonholed into tanking and only tanking

That would be, as they say, working as intended. The problem is that HA isn't the best at defense right now.

Khivas_Carrick

But all armor types should be open to all roles, as Light Armor currently is, so, yea.

Marthenil

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

But all armor types should be open to all roles, as Light Armor currently is, so, yea.

But hey, people on this forum are quite against any kind of choice

Khivas_Carrick

Marthenil wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

But all armor types should be open to all roles, as Light Armor currently is, so, yea.

But hey, people on this forum are quite against any kind of choice

I,

***.

You're right, why would I ever think to try anything else, shame on me.

Note my bitter, poisonous sarcasm towards people that don't seem to realize that you can tank in stuff other than Heavy but can't DPS or heal in Heavy.

Marthenil

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

But all armor types should be open to all roles, as Light Armor currently is, so, yea.

But hey, people on this forum are quite against any kind of choice

I,

***.

You're right, why would I ever think to try anything else, shame on me.

Note my bitter, poisonous sarcasm towards people that don't seem to realize that you can tank in stuff other than Heavy but can't DPS or heal in Heavy.

At least a third of the play that you want!

But what's worse is people saying each armor should be tied to a role only, which is even worse than what we have today in my opinion.

Pseudonym

People who can't DPS effectively in heavy armour are bad players. I could take off my armour, run around naked and still put out an acceptable amount of DPS.

If you want to be in the top 1% (or whatever) then sure, wear light armour, knock yourself out, but don't pretend it's not viable to DPS in heavy armour.

There will always be a favourite; a flavour of the month, a better way of doing something. Then there will always be people who don't like it and complain about it. Then I guess there will always be people like me, who try and tell people to just play the game and forget about who has the highest computer game numbers.

Marthenil

Pseudonym wrote: »

People who can't DPS effectively in heavy armour are bad players. I could take off my armour, run around naked and still put out an acceptable amount of DPS.

If you want to be in the top 1% (or whatever) then sure, wear light armour, knock yourself out, but don't pretend it's not viable to DPS in heavy armour.

There will always be a favourite; a flavour of the month, a better way of doing something. Then there will always be people who don't like it and complain about it. Then I guess there will always be people like me, who try and tell people to just play the game and forget about who has the highest computer game numbers.

Define acceptable DPS.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

No.... DPS should be identical IMHO.
Heavy should use 2h and do massive damage but the strike time suffers.
Medium armour use 1h+1h and do medium damage with medium strike time.
Light armour should use daggers with minimal damage but have a rapid strike
time.

This sounds great to me! I wanted to be able to do equal amounts of damage, not necessarily do it the exact same way

Shaun98ca2

Rune_Relic wrote: »

No.... DPS should be identical IMHO.
Heavy should use 2h and do massive damage but the strike time suffers.
Medium armour use 1h+1h and do medium damage with medium strike time.
Light armour should use daggers with minimal damage but have a rapid strike
time.

Heavy armour should get a transient stance bonus cancelled by stun.
Medium armour should get a transient block bonus cancelled by cripple.
Light armour should get a transient dodge bonus cancelled by snare.
.....and...
I would add robes with a transient teleport bonus cancelled with charm.

But I would also have caps something like....
Heavy armour = 80% physical and 20% magicka resistance
Medium armour = 60% physical and 40% magicka resist
light armour = 40% physical and 60% magicka resist
robe = 20% physical and 80% magicka resist
Heavy shield= 15% physical and 0% magicka resistance
Medium shield= 10% physical and 5% magicka resist
light shield = 5% physical and 10% magicka resist
none = 0% physical and 15% magicka resist

My thinking is magicka always relied on freedom of movement and non metals as they interfered with magic. Mages are also more likely yo use wards so the magicka resist of the armour should reflect that.

I would also extend the idea much further matching craft skill to fighter/assassin/thief/mage archetypes, adding explosives and matching up explosive+provisions / poisons+potions / prayers+chants&traps / destruction+restoration. Hence the stun/cripple/snare/charm above.

Anyway, never gonna happen. I like to fantasise and play around though...lol.

The above #s are nice to look at but TESO as different beliefs in mind.

YES I understand currently that system is WAY outta wack but ideally.....

Light Armor would be increased Magicka usage
Medium Armor would be increased Stamina usage
Heavy Armor would be increased Survival usage

BASED on this alone you want TOP tier Magicka DPS you wear Light Armor. Now that's not to say you COULDNT wear Heavy Armor and DPS but simply don't expect your DPS to be the same as you have increased survival.

Now that being said ALL 3 armors should be allowed to Tank but they should all 3 do it differently .

Light Armor should tank with decreased DPS but still more DPS than a Heavy Armor TANK but not as much SURVIVAL as a Heavy Armor Tank.

Stamina IE Medium armor AND Stamina users in Heavy Armor....are a different story all together and the reason this is tricky to balance properly is Stamina users have an innate increased survival due to increased Block and Dodge usage.

Cant look at armor in this game like you do in all other MMO's armor isn't a fixed role anymore and most MMO's nowadays are moving further and further away from this.

Your gonna start seeing more and more AAA MMOs allowing all 3 armor classes to preform in all roles.

Marthenil

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Light Armor would be increased Magicka usage
Medium Armor would be increased Stamina usage
Heavy Armor would be increased Survival usage

No, I know you might be actually talking with a PvP standpoint, but I disagree,in both cases.

The reason is as simple as that: The game has the chance to avoid being a cookie cutter fest with all the choice that's involved in character building.
It's not quite there currently, but, you know, balancing and all that.

Take away armor option (what you are suggesting is essentially a no brainer for PvE people) and you take away a good chunk of said choice.

Also, with your proposed system, light armor is still going to see the most usage as it's used by 2 roles

Rune_Relic

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

No.... DPS should be identical IMHO.
Heavy should use 2h and do massive damage but the strike time suffers.
Medium armour use 1h+1h and do medium damage with medium strike time.
Light armour should use daggers with minimal damage but have a rapid strike
time.

Heavy armour should get a transient stance bonus cancelled by stun.
Medium armour should get a transient block bonus cancelled by cripple.
Light armour should get a transient dodge bonus cancelled by snare.
.....and...
I would add robes with a transient teleport bonus cancelled with charm.

But I would also have caps something like....
Heavy armour = 80% physical and 20% magicka resistance
Medium armour = 60% physical and 40% magicka resist
light armour = 40% physical and 60% magicka resist
robe = 20% physical and 80% magicka resist
Heavy shield= 15% physical and 0% magicka resistance
Medium shield= 10% physical and 5% magicka resist
light shield = 5% physical and 10% magicka resist
none = 0% physical and 15% magicka resist

My thinking is magicka always relied on freedom of movement and non metals as they interfered with magic. Mages are also more likely yo use wards so the magicka resist of the armour should reflect that.

I would also extend the idea much further matching craft skill to fighter/assassin/thief/mage archetypes, adding explosives and matching up explosive+provisions / poisons+potions / prayers+chants&traps / destruction+restoration. Hence the stun/cripple/snare/charm above.

Anyway, never gonna happen. I like to fantasise and play around though...lol.

The above #s are nice to look at but TESO as different beliefs in mind.

YES I understand currently that system is WAY outta wack but ideally.....

Light Armor would be increased Magicka usage
Medium Armor would be increased Stamina usage
Heavy Armor would be increased Survival usage

BASED on this alone you want TOP tier Magicka DPS you wear Light Armor. Now that's not to say you COULDNT wear Heavy Armor and DPS but simply don't expect your DPS to be the same as you have increased survival.

Now that being said ALL 3 armors should be allowed to Tank but they should all 3 do it differently .

Light Armor should tank with decreased DPS but still more DPS than a Heavy Armor TANK but not as much SURVIVAL as a Heavy Armor Tank.

Stamina IE Medium armor AND Stamina users in Heavy Armor....are a different story all together and the reason this is tricky to balance properly is Stamina users have an innate increased survival due to increased Block and Dodge usage.

Cant look at armor in this game like you do in all other MMO's armor isn't a fixed role anymore and most MMO's nowadays are moving further and further away from this.

Your gonna start seeing more and more AAA MMOs allowing all 3 armor classes to preform in all roles.

Yes I agree they all all be able to tank in different ways.
I would have had a 4 stat system
Health - fighter, Dexterity -assassin, speed - thief, magicka - mage
Dexterity + speed = stamina.

So you would have put attribute points into the system depending on if you want to be pure or a hybrid.
The crunch...
Health control melee damage
Dexterity control Area of damage
Speed control range of damage
Magicka control magicka damage.
...that way depending on how you wanted to do damage woudl dictate how you spread attribute points.

Then the previous described 4 armour types automatically fall into place with this system. Just that the attributes make them more or less effective (amplifier).

eg a fighter might put all points into health = massive touch damage but crap range and crap area. So the heavy armour with occasional stance bonus (health) with 2h would benefit the most and receive the most amplification.

An assassin might have good area of damage, but the intensity would suffer and his range would be bad. Basically run in drop an aoe bomb and run out. Good with blocking (dexterity) to stand toe to toe but only medium armour so needs good reflexes but not going to stand there all day. But he could hit and block if he wanted too

the thief (excellent range dot) can hit and dodge roll (speed). Light armour maximises his skill set.

the mage (excellent touch magicka damage) can hit and teleport (magicka). Robes maximise their skill set. Being completely unencumbered/restricted in any way.

etc

Anyway, just saying theres lots of stuff ESO could do to make the game much more balanced...but with penalties too. So you have to play a different way to suit your setup...but you arent useless.

Khivas_Carrick

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

No.... DPS should be identical IMHO.
Heavy should use 2h and do massive damage but the strike time suffers.
Medium armour use 1h+1h and do medium damage with medium strike time.
Light armour should use daggers with minimal damage but have a rapid strike
time.

Heavy armour should get a transient stance bonus cancelled by stun.
Medium armour should get a transient block bonus cancelled by cripple.
Light armour should get a transient dodge bonus cancelled by snare.
.....and...
I would add robes with a transient teleport bonus cancelled with charm.

But I would also have caps something like....
Heavy armour = 80% physical and 20% magicka resistance
Medium armour = 60% physical and 40% magicka resist
light armour = 40% physical and 60% magicka resist
robe = 20% physical and 80% magicka resist
Heavy shield= 15% physical and 0% magicka resistance
Medium shield= 10% physical and 5% magicka resist
light shield = 5% physical and 10% magicka resist
none = 0% physical and 15% magicka resist

My thinking is magicka always relied on freedom of movement and non metals as they interfered with magic. Mages are also more likely yo use wards so the magicka resist of the armour should reflect that.

I would also extend the idea much further matching craft skill to fighter/assassin/thief/mage archetypes, adding explosives and matching up explosive+provisions / poisons+potions / prayers+chants&traps / destruction+restoration. Hence the stun/cripple/snare/charm above.

Anyway, never gonna happen. I like to fantasise and play around though...lol.

The above #s are nice to look at but TESO as different beliefs in mind.

YES I understand currently that system is WAY outta wack but ideally.....

Light Armor would be increased Magicka usage
Medium Armor would be increased Stamina usage
Heavy Armor would be increased Survival usage

BASED on this alone you want TOP tier Magicka DPS you wear Light Armor. Now that's not to say you COULDNT wear Heavy Armor and DPS but simply don't expect your DPS to be the same as you have increased survival.

Now that being said ALL 3 armors should be allowed to Tank but they should all 3 do it differently .

Light Armor should tank with decreased DPS but still more DPS than a Heavy Armor TANK but not as much SURVIVAL as a Heavy Armor Tank.

Stamina IE Medium armor AND Stamina users in Heavy Armor....are a different story all together and the reason this is tricky to balance properly is Stamina users have an innate increased survival due to increased Block and Dodge usage.

Cant look at armor in this game like you do in all other MMO's armor isn't a fixed role anymore and most MMO's nowadays are moving further and further away from this.

Your gonna start seeing more and more AAA MMOs allowing all 3 armor classes to preform in all roles.

No, this is bad. Literally every single MMO to date has a class that do all 3 roles no matter the armor, and in each one it's for one particular reason: Skills and Armor Type to match said skills.

SWTOR for Instance, WoW for another, we see Jedi Shadows and Druids, one wears light, the other Medium armor. Hardly the thing you'd expect to see tanking, yet when they activate a certain skill or ability, their armor and HP matches that of the traditional tank who wears Heavy Armor and uses a sword and shield, such as Paladins and Warriors from WoW or Brawler Fighters in Pathfinder/DnD. To drive a point further home, Death Knights in WoW, Jedi Guardians in SWTOR, and even People using Two-Handers here can tank just fine using Undaunted and certain class skills.

This is where the issue involving the disparity between Light and Heavy Armor becomes apparent. Light Armor can tank literally just as effectively as Heavy if not better due to the immense discount of magicka on skills, and more so that they can spam their attacks more efficiently as to generate threat and hold aggro, even full on DPS. That is a dumb, freakishly frightening combo to have lying around that any Joe Shmoe can pick up, and that's why Heavy Armor needs a buff both to it's Tanking Capabilities and DPS Capabilities.

You say that armors aren't all a fixed role anymore, but I hate to tell you that's been the trend for roughly ten years now, no armor truly defines a role anymore. People here in this thread are complaining about heavy armor DPS because it isn't viable as Light, and frankly neither is their tanking. Truth be told, not a god damn thing in this game is anywhere near the level of Light Armor and a Staff of some sort, and this issue penetrates not only the weapons and armor, but even the class system as a whole. It's not good, not good in the least mate.

Marthenil wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

People who can't DPS effectively in heavy armour are bad players. I could take off my armour, run around naked and still put out an acceptable amount of DPS.

If you want to be in the top 1% (or whatever) then sure, wear light armour, knock yourself out, but don't pretend it's not viable to DPS in heavy armour.

There will always be a favourite; a flavour of the month, a better way of doing something. Then there will always be people who don't like it and complain about it. Then I guess there will always be people like me, who try and tell people to just play the game and forget about who has the highest computer game numbers.

Define acceptable DPS.

^^^What this guy said. You and I both seem to know you can DPS in Heavy Armor, but you fail to define what "Acceptable DPS" is and how you achieved it, what class you are, etc. I can reach 600-700 DPS in Vet Dungeons with my Templar in 5 Light 2 Medium using a 2H, and similar in all heavy or all medium depending on the set that I choose to use (Torug's Pact is nice, as is Night's Silence and Ashen Grip. Martial Knowledge and Way Of The Fire is good too to this end) and I often find myself doing rather well in one on one in PvP, unless it's a *** Vampire.

*** Vamps man, broken as ***. But moving on.

Tell us how you achieve this, don't just sit there and hyperbole and flame and mock, grow a pair and show us something ya twit.

Marthenil

Slightly off topic, but most of the people joining me in my complaint for heavy armor are either Templars or DKs... Am I the only NB in here?

Regarding heavy armor DPS. It's roughly 30% less than what I put out with medium armor. Without getting anything in return. Seems balanced :P

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Marthenil wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but most of the people joining me in my complaint for heavy armor are either Templars or DKs... Am I the only NB in here?

Regarding heavy armor DPS. It's roughly 30% less than what I put out with medium armor. Without getting anything in return. Seems balanced :P

That's just the thing isn't it? If the discrepancy was only 5% people would go "ok, it's not the absolute best, but it's easily good enough".

The top time setters in trials still wouldn't use it because it would cost them precious seconds but the average group wouldn't be turning people away for it.

The degree of difference is just far too high.

Khivas_Carrick

Which is why I made the suggestions that I did in that one Forum Topic I made.

They're not over the top, still make tanks tanky, and makes sure that people that wear Heavy armor will be within the acceptable boundaries for DPS, being just as good as or slightly less than those in Medium and Light armor.

God damn it, I want to rock my Paladin Style Warrior, and I'll do it with or without ZoS's consent! (I really would prefer your proverbial consent via you buffing Heavy Armor though Zenimax)

EDIT*
Here's the link,
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130276/discussion-heavy-armor#latest

More posts = more words = more suggestions = more attention = Hey, ZoS might do something about it.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Which is why I made the suggestions that I did in that one Forum Topic I made.

They're not over the top, still make tanks tanky, and makes sure that people that wear Heavy armor will be within the acceptable boundaries for DPS, being just as good as or slightly less than those in Medium and Light armor.

God damn it, I want to rock my Paladin Style Warrior, and I'll do it with or without ZoS's consent! (I really would prefer your proverbial consent via you buffing Heavy Armor though Zenimax)

EDIT*
Here's the link,
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130276/discussion-heavy-armor#latest

More posts = more words = more suggestions = more attention = Hey, ZoS might do something about it.

I still like your suggestion better than most. You've addressed the shortcomings of the tree without "gives 900% damage boost" type exaggerations.

Hoping ZOS see it the same way with their adjustments

Kypho

You can be DD in heavy. be a DK you can do more damage. wth is your problem. you want to do the biggest damage, and the best tanking? all will use heavy.... Heavy need nerf dmg not buff...

Khivas_Carrick

Little less flaming anger, little more constructive speaking please.