Heavy Armor and game design decisions or Will we ever be able to DPS in heavy armor?

Marthenil

So, looking at the 1.3.3 patch notes, and more recent changes in heavy armor, it has become quite apparent that heavy armor is pigeonholed into tanking and only tanking, and not only by the general imbalance that exists in the game, but through intended design decisions as well (rewarding defensive play for example).

It seems that this is the way the devs want it to be, only Tanks using heavy armor, and I, personally, am not so fine with it.
First of all, there's only 1 tank per group, even for trials. This limits the demand by a lot.
Secondly, you are also pigeonholed into 1h/s so it really is a pigeonhole inside a pigeonhole.

I think it's also quite apparent I'm talking about PVE by the way.
I'm also talking about "competitive" dps numbers, pulling 400 DPS when a light armor build pulls 1000 is not something I would consider viable :P

/discuss

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

Think about it this way, what tank is able to hold agro in dugeons and raids on mobs? You will get hit and gain regen, but i agree i want dps stat for heavy

dietlime

Heh, you can do damage, just not as much. Don't be silly, heavy armor is all about being unstoppable. your opinions are bad,

vi·a·ble
ˈvīəbəl/Submit
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

Note: it doesn't say "capable of doing the best ever."

Marthenil

dietlime wrote: »

Heh, you can do damage, just not as much. Don't be silly, heavy armor is all about being unstoppable. your opinions are bad,

vi·a·ble
ˈvīəbəl/Submit
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

Note: it doesn't say "capable of doing the best ever."

Fine, whatever, you found something to nitpick. And no, capable of working is not doing something like 30% less damage than everything else.


And don't dare say light armor has drawbacks to survivability compared to heavy, because it doesn't. (In a DPS build that is, don't go comparing tanks with dps)

Wifeaggro13

Marthenil wrote: »

So, looking at the 1.3.3 patch notes, and more recent changes in heavy armor, it has become quite apparent that heavy armor is pigeonholed into tanking and only tanking, and not only by the general imbalance that exists in the game, but through intended design decisions as well (rewarding defensive play for example).

It seems that this is the way the devs want it to be, only Tanks using heavy armor, and I, personally, am not so fine with it.
First of all, there's only 1 tank per group, even for trials. This limits the demand by a lot.
Secondly, you are also pigeonholed into 1h/s so it really is a pigeonhole inside a pigeonhole.

I think it's also quite apparent I'm talking about PVE by the way.
I'm also talking about "competitive" dps numbers, pulling 400 DPS when a light armor build pulls 1000 is not something I would consider viable :P

/discuss

Well i would say heavy should not DPS , but here is the stupid game design coming into play and the severe white elephant in the room. in ZOS theory you should be able to tank in light armor which you can, You can do it better then a heavy in all honesty due to crit and spell resistance. Believe me i have two tanks V12 now sorc in light and DK in heavy. the sorc owns the dk in all aspects of tanking.

Now here is were negligence comes into play, what you just described, you can not be effective at all as dps in heavy armor but you can tank worse then a light armor tank lol. Seriously the small incrmental change they made to heavy armor constitution is like taking a turd and dipping it in bronze and calling it a gold nugget

Marthenil

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

So, looking at the 1.3.3 patch notes, and more recent changes in heavy armor, it has become quite apparent that heavy armor is pigeonholed into tanking and only tanking, and not only by the general imbalance that exists in the game, but through intended design decisions as well (rewarding defensive play for example).

It seems that this is the way the devs want it to be, only Tanks using heavy armor, and I, personally, am not so fine with it.
First of all, there's only 1 tank per group, even for trials. This limits the demand by a lot.
Secondly, you are also pigeonholed into 1h/s so it really is a pigeonhole inside a pigeonhole.

I think it's also quite apparent I'm talking about PVE by the way.
I'm also talking about "competitive" dps numbers, pulling 400 DPS when a light armor build pulls 1000 is not something I would consider viable :P

/discuss

Well i would say heavy should not DPS , but here is the stupid game design coming into play and the severe white elephant in the room. in ZOS theory you should be able to tank in light armor which you can, You can do it better then a heavy in all honesty due to crit and spell resistance. Believe me i have two tanks V12 now sorc in light and DK in heavy. the sorc owns the dk in all aspects of tanking.

Now here is were negligence comes into play, what you just described, you can not be effective at all as dps in heavy armor but you can tank worse then a light armor tank lol. Seriously the small incrmental change they made to heavy armor constitution is like taking a turd and dipping it in bronze and calling it a gold nugget

I agree on the second part of your post, but disagree on the first.
As it is, the game is just a huge pigeonhole which can be broken down to:
Which role do I want to play?
What resource am I going to use?

And you have your build laid down to you instantly. No deep decisions, nothing meaningful, just a bunch of mandatory skills/passives/pieces of equipment.
This is by no stretch what I had in mind with ESOs system.

I'm not saying everything should be equalized in a brutal way, but mindfully narrowing down armor to only one role is just not acceptable in my opinion.
This game could use more Path of Exile and less World of Warcraft.

Vargtask

Heavy armor have little uses, DK tanks in Trials use Light Armor for most bosses

Dekkameron

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

LariahHunding

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

Marthenil

Dekkameron wrote: »

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

That's one reason. The other, for me at least, is the gameplay. I like playing as a tanky dps.
As it is now however, not only are you penalized for being tanky (by doing less damage) there is also absolutely no reason for your existence.
That also applies to all melee I guess in this game, but that's for a different topic.

In the end, it's all about playstyle and archetypes.

LariahHunding wrote: »

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

But then I have to use the stick! :P

Wifeaggro13

Marthenil wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

So, looking at the 1.3.3 patch notes, and more recent changes in heavy armor, it has become quite apparent that heavy armor is pigeonholed into tanking and only tanking, and not only by the general imbalance that exists in the game, but through intended design decisions as well (rewarding defensive play for example).

It seems that this is the way the devs want it to be, only Tanks using heavy armor, and I, personally, am not so fine with it.
First of all, there's only 1 tank per group, even for trials. This limits the demand by a lot.
Secondly, you are also pigeonholed into 1h/s so it really is a pigeonhole inside a pigeonhole.

I think it's also quite apparent I'm talking about PVE by the way.
I'm also talking about "competitive" dps numbers, pulling 400 DPS when a light armor build pulls 1000 is not something I would consider viable :P

/discuss

Well i would say heavy should not DPS , but here is the stupid game design coming into play and the severe white elephant in the room. in ZOS theory you should be able to tank in light armor which you can, You can do it better then a heavy in all honesty due to crit and spell resistance. Believe me i have two tanks V12 now sorc in light and DK in heavy. the sorc owns the dk in all aspects of tanking.

Now here is were negligence comes into play, what you just described, you can not be effective at all as dps in heavy armor but you can tank worse then a light armor tank lol. Seriously the small incrmental change they made to heavy armor constitution is like taking a turd and dipping it in bronze and calling it a gold nugget

I agree on the second part of your post, but disagree on the first.
As it is, the game is just a huge pigeonhole which can be broken down to:
Which role do I want to play?
What resource am I going to use?

And you have your build laid down to you instantly. No deep decisions, nothing meaningful, just a bunch of mandatory skills/passives/pieces of equipment.
This is by no stretch what I had in mind with ESOs system.

I'm not saying everything should be equalized in a brutal way, but mindfully narrowing down armor to only one role is just not acceptable in my opinion.
This game could use more Path of Exile and less World of Warcraft.

ok then lets say this they fixed it so a Heavy armor with a two hander is doing 3.5 AOE and 1.7 ST DPS in trials. And caster's are doing 3.0 AOE and 1.3 ST dps ?
Im guessing there would be a massive melt down. Tanking should require Player skill , Player knowledge and Game mechanic survivability. right now neither exist. Its Light armor caster DPs with a taunt. Just out of curiousity how would you feel if that heavy wearer was doing that DPS.

Anastasia

Marthenil wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

That's one reason. The other, for me at least, is the gameplay. I like playing as a tanky dps.
As it is now however, not only are you penalized for being tanky (by doing less damage) there is also absolutely no reason for your existence.
That also applies to all melee I guess in this game, but that's for a different topic.

In the end, it's all about playstyle and archetypes.

LariahHunding wrote: »

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

But then I have to use the stick! :P

Marthenil wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

That's one reason. The other, for me at least, is the gameplay. I like playing as a tanky dps.
As it is now however, not only are you penalized for being tanky (by doing less damage) there is also absolutely no reason for your existence.
That also applies to all melee I guess in this game, but that's for a different topic.

>>>>In the end, it's all about playstyle and archetypes.<<<<

LariahHunding wrote: »

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

But then I have to use the stick!

---

Err no, its ALL about effectiveness and reasonable balance...not just dress-up and looks.

Marthenil

Anastasia wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

That's one reason. The other, for me at least, is the gameplay. I like playing as a tanky dps.
As it is now however, not only are you penalized for being tanky (by doing less damage) there is also absolutely no reason for your existence.
That also applies to all melee I guess in this game, but that's for a different topic.

In the end, it's all about playstyle and archetypes.

LariahHunding wrote: »

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

But then I have to use the stick! :P

Marthenil wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

That's one reason. The other, for me at least, is the gameplay. I like playing as a tanky dps.
As it is now however, not only are you penalized for being tanky (by doing less damage) there is also absolutely no reason for your existence.
That also applies to all melee I guess in this game, but that's for a different topic.

>>>>In the end, it's all about playstyle and archetypes.<<<<

LariahHunding wrote: »

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

But then I have to use the stick!

---

Err no, its ALL about effectiveness and reasonable balance...not just dress-up and looks.

So how's that balance working for you now? Light armor can reach heavy survivability, while doing more damage. Seems balanced.

Furthermore, as I have already said, there's simply no variation. It's all just a huge pigeonhole of mandatory "choices". How is that healthy for the game?

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

So, looking at the 1.3.3 patch notes, and more recent changes in heavy armor, it has become quite apparent that heavy armor is pigeonholed into tanking and only tanking, and not only by the general imbalance that exists in the game, but through intended design decisions as well (rewarding defensive play for example).

It seems that this is the way the devs want it to be, only Tanks using heavy armor, and I, personally, am not so fine with it.
First of all, there's only 1 tank per group, even for trials. This limits the demand by a lot.
Secondly, you are also pigeonholed into 1h/s so it really is a pigeonhole inside a pigeonhole.

I think it's also quite apparent I'm talking about PVE by the way.
I'm also talking about "competitive" dps numbers, pulling 400 DPS when a light armor build pulls 1000 is not something I would consider viable :P

/discuss

Well i would say heavy should not DPS , but here is the stupid game design coming into play and the severe white elephant in the room. in ZOS theory you should be able to tank in light armor which you can, You can do it better then a heavy in all honesty due to crit and spell resistance. Believe me i have two tanks V12 now sorc in light and DK in heavy. the sorc owns the dk in all aspects of tanking.

Now here is were negligence comes into play, what you just described, you can not be effective at all as dps in heavy armor but you can tank worse then a light armor tank lol. Seriously the small incrmental change they made to heavy armor constitution is like taking a turd and dipping it in bronze and calling it a gold nugget

I agree on the second part of your post, but disagree on the first.
As it is, the game is just a huge pigeonhole which can be broken down to:
Which role do I want to play?
What resource am I going to use?

And you have your build laid down to you instantly. No deep decisions, nothing meaningful, just a bunch of mandatory skills/passives/pieces of equipment.
This is by no stretch what I had in mind with ESOs system.

I'm not saying everything should be equalized in a brutal way, but mindfully narrowing down armor to only one role is just not acceptable in my opinion.
This game could use more Path of Exile and less World of Warcraft.

ok then lets say this they fixed it so a Heavy armor with a two hander is doing 3.5 AOE and 1.7 ST DPS in trials. And caster's are doing 3.0 AOE and 1.3 ST dps ?
Im guessing there would be a massive melt down. Tanking should require Player skill , Player knowledge and Game mechanic survivability. right now neither exist. Its Light armor caster DPs with a taunt. Just out of curiousity how would you feel if that heavy wearer was doing that DPS.

Regarding your last question, I'd be fine. Why? Because being melee is simply harder in this game. Most mechanics penalize melee 300% more than ranged.
But that's not what I personally want. Ideally, being more tanky with less damage should somehow help the group (through fight mechanics) rather than being a slot waster.

Wifeaggro13

Marthenil wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

That's one reason. The other, for me at least, is the gameplay. I like playing as a tanky dps.
As it is now however, not only are you penalized for being tanky (by doing less damage) there is also absolutely no reason for your existence.
That also applies to all melee I guess in this game, but that's for a different topic.

In the end, it's all about playstyle and archetypes.

LariahHunding wrote: »

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

But then I have to use the stick! :P

Marthenil wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

That's one reason. The other, for me at least, is the gameplay. I like playing as a tanky dps.
As it is now however, not only are you penalized for being tanky (by doing less damage) there is also absolutely no reason for your existence.
That also applies to all melee I guess in this game, but that's for a different topic.

>>>>In the end, it's all about playstyle and archetypes.<<<<

LariahHunding wrote: »

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

But then I have to use the stick!

---

Err no, its ALL about effectiveness and reasonable balance...not just dress-up and looks.

So how's that balance working for you now? Light armor can reach heavy survivability, while doing more damage. Seems balanced.

Furthermore, as I have already said, there's simply no variation. It's all just a huge pigeonhole of mandatory "choices". How is that healthy for the game?

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

So, looking at the 1.3.3 patch notes, and more recent changes in heavy armor, it has become quite apparent that heavy armor is pigeonholed into tanking and only tanking, and not only by the general imbalance that exists in the game, but through intended design decisions as well (rewarding defensive play for example).

It seems that this is the way the devs want it to be, only Tanks using heavy armor, and I, personally, am not so fine with it.
First of all, there's only 1 tank per group, even for trials. This limits the demand by a lot.
Secondly, you are also pigeonholed into 1h/s so it really is a pigeonhole inside a pigeonhole.

I think it's also quite apparent I'm talking about PVE by the way.
I'm also talking about "competitive" dps numbers, pulling 400 DPS when a light armor build pulls 1000 is not something I would consider viable :P

/discuss

Well i would say heavy should not DPS , but here is the stupid game design coming into play and the severe white elephant in the room. in ZOS theory you should be able to tank in light armor which you can, You can do it better then a heavy in all honesty due to crit and spell resistance. Believe me i have two tanks V12 now sorc in light and DK in heavy. the sorc owns the dk in all aspects of tanking.

Now here is were negligence comes into play, what you just described, you can not be effective at all as dps in heavy armor but you can tank worse then a light armor tank lol. Seriously the small incrmental change they made to heavy armor constitution is like taking a turd and dipping it in bronze and calling it a gold nugget

I agree on the second part of your post, but disagree on the first.
As it is, the game is just a huge pigeonhole which can be broken down to:
Which role do I want to play?
What resource am I going to use?

And you have your build laid down to you instantly. No deep decisions, nothing meaningful, just a bunch of mandatory skills/passives/pieces of equipment.
This is by no stretch what I had in mind with ESOs system.

I'm not saying everything should be equalized in a brutal way, but mindfully narrowing down armor to only one role is just not acceptable in my opinion.
This game could use more Path of Exile and less World of Warcraft.

ok then lets say this they fixed it so a Heavy armor with a two hander is doing 3.5 AOE and 1.7 ST DPS in trials. And caster's are doing 3.0 AOE and 1.3 ST dps ?
Im guessing there would be a massive melt down. Tanking should require Player skill , Player knowledge and Game mechanic survivability. right now neither exist. Its Light armor caster DPs with a taunt. Just out of curiousity how would you feel if that heavy wearer was doing that DPS.

Regarding your last question, I'd be fine. Why? Because being melee is simply harder in this game. Most mechanics penalize melee 300% more than ranged.
But that's not what I personally want. Ideally, being more tanky with less damage should somehow help the group (through fight mechanics) rather than being a slot waster.

Agreed

Rune_Relic

Marthenil wrote: »

dietlime wrote: »

Heh, you can do damage, just not as much. Don't be silly, heavy armor is all about being unstoppable. your opinions are bad,

vi·a·ble
ˈvīəbəl/Submit
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

Note: it doesn't say "capable of doing the best ever."

Fine, whatever, you found something to nitpick. And no, capable of working is not doing something like 30% less damage than everything else.


And don't dare say light armor has drawbacks to survivability compared to heavy, because it doesn't. (In a DPS build that is, don't go comparing tanks with dps)

Both your speed and dexterity is compromised in heavy armour.
Why should you not suffer a penalty to attack for your increase in defense ?

Marthenil

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

dietlime wrote: »

Heh, you can do damage, just not as much. Don't be silly, heavy armor is all about being unstoppable. your opinions are bad,

vi·a·ble
ˈvīəbəl/Submit
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

Note: it doesn't say "capable of doing the best ever."

Fine, whatever, you found something to nitpick. And no, capable of working is not doing something like 30% less damage than everything else.


And don't dare say light armor has drawbacks to survivability compared to heavy, because it doesn't. (In a DPS build that is, don't go comparing tanks with dps)

Both your speed and dexterity is compromised in heavy armour.
Why should you not suffer a penalty to attack for your increase in defense ?

Uh-oh, are you going to bring realism into this?

Stx

Honestly, from a PvE perspective, why should anyone but the tank be wearing Heavy armor?

If you could put out the same dps but with better survival, that would be stupid. Everyone would just use Heavy for everything.

I agree Heavy armor needs a lot of love, and 1.3 didn't deliver it(whoopie, 10 resources back per second tops), but I certainly don't want Heavy to be the new Light armor.

Marthenil

Stx wrote: »

Honestly, from a PvE perspective, why should anyone but the tank be wearing Heavy armor?

Erm, why not? Since the way the system works, classes are not linked to archetypes. The whole package is.
So, you want DPS archetypes to be: The Mage, The Rogue.
End of? that's kinda shallow. And don't tell me how a DK in medium is not a rogue because it's not flavour that defines an archetype but general gameplay.

Stx wrote: »

I agree Heavy armor needs a lot of love, and 1.3 didn't deliver it(whoopie, 10 resources back per second tops), but I certainly don't want Heavy to be the new Light armor.

Oh, I don't want that either. I want everything to be viable, with a meaningful choice attached to it. Do I want to avoid damage more easily (medium) or be able to soak it a bit better (Heavy) as an example. Of course, with the current shallow mechanics this is impossible.
That's my major complain, everything is extremely shallow, with only the illusion of choice.

Anastasia

Marthenil wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Honestly, from a PvE perspective, why should anyone but the tank be wearing Heavy armor?

Erm, why not? Since the way the system works, classes are not linked to archetypes. The whole package is.
So, you want DPS archetypes to be: The Mage, The Rogue.
End of? that's kinda shallow. And don't tell me how a DK in medium is not a rogue because it's not flavour that defines an archetype but general gameplay.

Stx wrote: »

I agree Heavy armor needs a lot of love, and 1.3 didn't deliver it(whoopie, 10 resources back per second tops), but I certainly don't want Heavy to be the new Light armor.

Oh, I don't want that either.
>>>>>>> I want everything to be viable, with a meaningful choice attached to it. <<<<<<

Do I want to avoid damage more easily (medium) or be able to soak it a bit better (Heavy) as an example. Of course, with the current shallow mechanics this is impossible.
That's my major complain, everything is extremely shallow, with only the illusion of choice.

---

Silly, silly you.

tylerdavidsonb14_ESO

PIGEON
HOLE!!

Seriously though...I think the basic philosophy for the game is Light armor wearers MUST do more DPS because they take less hits to die. Whereas Heavy armor users do less DPS because they take MORE hits to die. Understand?

See you are looking at it as literally Damage Per SECOND. Why not look at it as total damage done before you die? Say you are fighting an invincible boss....this is by no means factual numbers mind you pure hypothetical...but say a light armor user does 5000 total points of damage and then dies in 10 seconds. Whereas the heavy armor user does 5000 points of damage and then dies in 17 seconds. In essence it is QUITE balanced. A heavy armor DPS player would not have to be healed nearly as much or as often as a light armor DPS user....so the healer could focus more on the light armor dps player.

Whats the normal ratio for DPS / tanks / healers when running trials? I bet if you threw a group together with DPS split down the middle between light armor and heavy armor DPS'ers and then maybe knocked two healers out of the group and added two MORE dps'ers then everything would die quicker and faster right?

It's all about POV and philosophy. They are balancing the game based on what THEIR vision is for the game....not yours. I am willing to bet there IS a need/demand for heavy armor dps'ers, it's just group leaders haven't experimented with them yet because everyone gets so hung up on numbers.

philosophize children....theorize....utilize.....then conquer the world.

Cody

I play a 2H HA armor sorcerer. id say HA could use some improvement with regards to dealing damage.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

tylerdavidsonb14_ESO wrote: »

PIGEON
HOLE!!

Seriously though...I think the basic philosophy for the game is Light armor wearers MUST do more DPS because they take less hits to die. Whereas Heavy armor users do less DPS because they take MORE hits to die. Understand?

This isn't really accurate for a few reasons.

1. Light armor wearers can use damage shield spells and have higher mitigation than heavy armor users while putting out 1k+ damage.

2. Light armor pure dps in the "glass cannon" archetype that you described should, in most PvE encounters be outside of the range of the vast majority of mob damage. This makes their armor rating largely irrelevant.

3. Melee are copping damage left, right and centre constantly. Either they avoid it (high stam, med armor) or they soak it (heavy armor). Both need to be adequate options for dps noting that melee dps still should be smart enough to not take as much damage as a tank.

So by making light armor naturally allow for higher damage all you are doing is giving casters a reward for staying out of harms way

Melee on the other hand, are taking a much larger beating (or disengaging to avoid which lowers their damage anyway) simply by virtue of having no choice but to stand in the most dangerous zones, all the while, because their armor is meant to compensate for this, they are also being penalized by having lower damage output.

In PvE the "light armor should do more dps because they get killed easier" argument is not AS valid since anyone in light armor should be far enough away to completely avoid most damage anyway. Melee need higher armor just to survive, they need equal damage output to their caster comrades.
Note I deliberately said equal, I am not in the camp that believes it should be higher, it shouldn't.

So yes, make medium and heavy uniquely suited to melee dps, both should have a place in trials and it is not all about the level of protection it provides.

Addtional final note:
In PvP, the defense to damage argument is much more valid as players have additional abilities (gap closers etc) which make the consequences of armor type vs damage type/level very real.

Khivas_Carrick

Marthenil wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

I think most people who want to wear heavy armour want it more for cosmetic purposes (cos it looks awesome!)

So for me at least i wouldn't mind them just allowing cosmetic options and keeping actual heavy armours tanking bonuses.

That's one reason. The other, for me at least, is the gameplay. I like playing as a tanky dps.
As it is now however, not only are you penalized for being tanky (by doing less damage) there is also absolutely no reason for your existence.
That also applies to all melee I guess in this game, but that's for a different topic.

In the end, it's all about playstyle and archetypes.

LariahHunding wrote: »

I just go 5/2 light/heavy for the looks.

But then I have to use the stick! :P

Actually I do this, or used to rather, seeing as when I ding VR11 I'm going to be rocking a set of armor a friend gave me as to save on resources and stuff. The point of this is me saying that despite me wearing 5 light and 2 heavy, I very much used a damn two handed sword with my class spells. Dresses and Sticks be damned!

Khivas_Carrick

Also, double post, sorry, don't hurt me.

I agree with people saying Heavy Armor needs DPS love, especially this guy:

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

tylerdavidsonb14_ESO wrote: »

PIGEON
HOLE!!

Seriously though...I think the basic philosophy for the game is Light armor wearers MUST do more DPS because they take less hits to die. Whereas Heavy armor users do less DPS because they take MORE hits to die. Understand?

This isn't really accurate for a few reasons.

1. Light armor wearers can use damage shield spells and have higher mitigation than heavy armor users while putting out 1k+ damage.

2. Light armor pure dps in the "glass cannon" archetype that you described should, in most PvE encounters be outside of the range of the vast majority of mob damage. This makes their armor rating largely irrelevant.

3. Melee are copping damage left, right and centre constantly. Either they avoid it (high stam, med armor) or they soak it (heavy armor). Both need to be adequate options for dps noting that melee dps still should be smart enough to not take as much damage as a tank.

So by making light armor naturally allow for higher damage all you are doing is giving casters a reward for staying out of harms way

Melee on the other hand, are taking a much larger beating (or disengaging to avoid which lowers their damage anyway) simply by virtue of having no choice but to stand in the most dangerous zones, all the while, because their armor is meant to compensate for this, they are also being penalized by having lower damage output.

In PvE the "light armor should do more dps because they get killed easier" argument is not AS valid since anyone in light armor should be far enough away to completely avoid most damage anyway. Melee need higher armor just to survive, they need equal damage output to their caster comrades.
Note I deliberately said equal, I am not in the camp that believes it should be higher, it shouldn't.

So yes, make medium and heavy uniquely suited to melee dps, both should have a place in trials and it is not all about the level of protection it provides.

Addtional final note:
In PvP, the defense to damage argument is much more valid as players have additional abilities (gap closers etc) which make the consequences of armor type vs damage type/level very real.

I have played a heavy armor melee character in nearly every single game that was an MMO I have ever touched, and most games that weren't MMOs. It's more challenging and way more rewarding than being a ranged or caster character ever was, and even here in ESO I suddenly find myself looking at my large sword and my heavy armor and my spells that I use in melee range even for support at times, going "Damn, I'm always going to be a melee fighter. And I am ok with that."

Heavy Armor needs to do something for single target DPS with melee attacks, it's a trope that's been around since D&D and it makes sense to not only keep it but keep it modernized throughout the gaming ages.

Another way to look at it is this: Casters and Ranged deal not quite as much damage as melee. In fact, Melee DPS is the highest DPS BUT they offer jack crap in terms of Utility, meaning their sole purpose it to kill things and kill them quickly, whereas the Casters and Archers job's would be the utility that's so desperately needed, and I don't mean healing. I mean lowering armor, crowd control, knock backs, aoe's, traps, roots, snares, good and decent stuns. THE PROVERBIAL POTATOES AND VEGGIES TO THE RAID'S PROVERBIAL MEAT PEOPLE! Sorry, lack-of-sleep-dramatic mode just got turned on, I'ma go log now, sorry folks lol

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I agree with people saying Heavy Armor needs DPS love, especially this guy:

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

tylerdavidsonb14_ESO wrote: »

PIGEON
HOLE!!

Seriously though...I think the basic philosophy for the game is Light armor wearers MUST do more DPS because they take less hits to die. Whereas Heavy armor users do less DPS because they take MORE hits to die. Understand?

Heavy Armor needs to do something for single target DPS with melee attacks, it's a trope that's been around since D&D and it makes sense to not only keep it but keep it modernized throughout the gaming ages.

Another way to look at it is this: Casters and Ranged deal not quite as much damage as melee. In fact, Melee DPS is the highest DPS BUT they offer jack crap in terms of Utility, meaning their sole purpose it to kill things and kill them quickly, whereas the Casters and Archers job's would be the utility that's so desperately needed, and I don't mean healing. I mean lowering armor, crowd control, knock backs, aoe's, traps, roots, snares, good and decent stuns. THE PROVERBIAL POTATOES AND VEGGIES TO THE RAID'S PROVERBIAL MEAT PEOPLE! Sorry, lack-of-sleep-dramatic mode just got turned on, I'ma go log now, sorry folks lol

Well thank ye sir!

Truthfully though, I don't need to do more dps as a melee, just equal. I'm happy to do a bit of extra heavy lifting to maintain my numbers. I can always help with interrupts or the occasional block to add a little bit more utility.

I completely agree though, heavy melee damage is not new. If the devs want to reinvent the wheel for this game in the way to achieve it then thats fantastic...but they don't have to! As you said, plenty of existing models they can base it on

Wifeaggro13

tylerdavidsonb14_ESO wrote: »

PIGEON
HOLE!!

Seriously though...I think the basic philosophy for the same is Light armor wearers MUST do more DPS because they take less hits to die. Whereas Heavy armor users do less DPS because they take MORE hits to die. Understand?

See you are looking at it as literally Damage Per SECOND. Why not look at it as total damage done before you die? Say you are fighting an invincible boss....this is by no means factual numbers mind you pure hypothetical...but say a light armor user does 5000 total points of damage and then dies in 10 seconds. Whereas the heavy armor user does 5000 points of damage and then dies in 17 seconds. In essence it is QUITE balanced. A heavy armor DPS player would not have to be healed nearly as much or as often as a light armor DPS user....so the healer could focus more on the light armor dps player.

Whats the normal ratio for DPS / tanks / healers when running trials? I bet if you threw a group together with DPS split down the middle between light armor and heavy armor DPS'ers and then maybe knocked two healers out of the group and added two MORE dps'ers then everything would die quicker and faster right?

It's all about POV and philosophy. They are balancing the game based on what THEIR vision is for the game....not yours. I am willing to bet there IS a need/demand for heavy armor dps'ers, it's just group leaders haven't experimented with them yet because everyone gets so hung up on numbers.

philosophize children....theorize....utilize.....then conquer the world.

Im pretty sure your not actually playing the game as anything other then DPS. As a tank with 2 different vr 12 . One sorc in light and a dk in heavy. The light armor exceeds in both tanking and dpsing. But heavy excels at neither. Why ? You ask. Because light armor or heavy has no impact on your ability to mitigate damage. But having magica , crit and spell resist are absloutely undeniably more powerful then block cost and health recovery.

With my sorc i absorb and mitigat just as much damage as my dk in full trial gear with 2 buffs. Still retain insame amounts of magica ,do incredible dps while tanking . The block reduction is easy negated with pots and health recovery is a joke when you already have 3.5 k hp. The healer yawns in Coh. And trials but for couple bosses heavy is easier but not required. So the long and short is light tanks as well or better then heavy. Dps and heals better then heavy. But heavy can come no where near lights dps. I dont think heavy needs a buff light armor needs its aror cap changed to 1500 max . It can get no higher. Then heavy will be good for tanks

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Im pretty sure your not actually playing the game as anything other then DPS. As a tank with 2 different vr 12 . One sorc in light and a dk in heavy. The light armor exceeds in both tanking and dpsing. But heavy excels at neither. Why ? You ask. Because light armor or heavy has no impact on your ability to mitigate damage. But having magica , crit and spell resist are absloutely undeniably more powerful then block cost and health recovery.

With my sorc i absorb and mitigat just as much damage as my dk in full trial gear with 2 buffs. Still retain insame amounts of magica ,do incredible dps while tanking . The block reduction is easy negated with pots and health recovery is a joke when you already have 3.5 k hp. The healer yawns in Coh. And trials but for couple bosses heavy is easier but not required. So the long and short is light tanks as well or better then heavy. Dps and heals better then heavy. But heavy can come no where near lights dps. I dont think heavy needs a buff light armor needs its aror cap changed to 1500 max . It can get no higher. Then heavy will be good for tanks

There are two options, both seem about the same level of effort and both will in a sense, solve balance problems.

You can either nerf light armor and make both light and heavy good in a single role each or you can buff the damage of heavy and give people a choice in which they prefer.

Why force dps/heals into light and tanks into heavy when you can open them both up to choice without hurting balance?

Seems to fit the theme of the game far better to allow both.

Azraeel

DPS increase is NOT what heavy armor needs, what heavy armor needs is ACTUAL resource gain, not that crap they came out with in the last big patch, and ACTUAL damage mitigation, like a flat decrease in damage, not that armor /spell resistance crap which you could easily cap with a skill. Period.

Marthenil

Azraeel wrote: »

DPS increase is NOT what heavy armor needs, what heavy armor needs is ACTUAL resource gain, not that crap they came out with in the last big patch, and ACTUAL damage mitigation, like a flat decrease in damage, not that armor /spell resistance crap which you could easily cap with a skill. Period.

Right now? ABSOLUTELY.

My OP was more about the long term.

Khivas_Carrick

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Im pretty sure your not actually playing the game as anything other then DPS. As a tank with 2 different vr 12 . One sorc in light and a dk in heavy. The light armor exceeds in both tanking and dpsing. But heavy excels at neither. Why ? You ask. Because light armor or heavy has no impact on your ability to mitigate damage. But having magica , crit and spell resist are absloutely undeniably more powerful then block cost and health recovery.

With my sorc i absorb and mitigat just as much damage as my dk in full trial gear with 2 buffs. Still retain insame amounts of magica ,do incredible dps while tanking . The block reduction is easy negated with pots and health recovery is a joke when you already have 3.5 k hp. The healer yawns in Coh. And trials but for couple bosses heavy is easier but not required. So the long and short is light tanks as well or better then heavy. Dps and heals better then heavy. But heavy can come no where near lights dps. I dont think heavy needs a buff light armor needs its aror cap changed to 1500 max . It can get no higher. Then heavy will be good for tanks

There are two options, both seem about the same level of effort and both will in a sense, solve balance problems.

You can either nerf light armor and make both light and heavy good in a single role each or you can buff the damage of heavy and give people a choice in which they prefer.

Why force dps/heals into light and tanks into heavy when you can open them both up to choice without hurting balance?

Seems to fit the theme of the game far better to allow both.

You

Azraeel wrote: »

DPS increase is NOT what heavy armor needs, what heavy armor needs is ACTUAL resource gain, not that crap they came out with in the last big patch, and ACTUAL damage mitigation, like a flat decrease in damage, not that armor /spell resistance crap which you could easily cap with a skill. Period.

And you are both right in my eyes. Oh so very right.

Yusuf

What did you expect, srsly,why don't we all wear paperbags around our waists and call it a day.
Next thing people gonna ask for is being able to do top-notch-dps naked.