Bow needs a spam skill

Selodaoc

Bow needs some kind of single target spam skill.
There are dots, knockbacks and AoEs but no spammable normal skill.
You can remove one of the AoEs noone are using.

Thejollygreenone

Much agreed here.

I feel like they wanted Snipe to be the spam skill (aka our stamina dump), but it just ended up being too clunky to use in practice compared to many instacast alternatives.

Hell, even some cast-time abilities are more worth-while to use as a resource dump than snipe (Crystal Frags, Dark Flare, I'm lookin at you)

Lynx7386

They have this issue with some other skill lines too, like two handed (carve cant be spammed because of the backloaded DoT, and uppercut cant because of the cast time and not applying it's own damage bonus to itself).

I dont know why so many abilities in this game are damage over time based. It's a poor design decision when you've only got 5 ability slots available at any one time.

Kego

I'm with you guys. Even not using 2H I can see the issue here as well as with Bows. Any line should have an Anytime 2 use Skill.

For 2H I could see one with a Snare Morph (40%) and Stamina regain with Crit (maybe 50% of Stamina used for the Skill)

With Bow maybe as well a Snare Morph (50%) and next Snipe reduced by (0.5 or 1 Sec. depends on how OP it would get).

The Snare Morph on both Skills would be more for PvP, the other Morphs to bring a Stamina Regain Passive and for Bows to make Snipe more apealing in PvE Enviorment outside an Stealth opener.

CapuchinSeven

Venom Arrow is my bow spammer right now, comical watching healers trying to heal and Sorcs trying to damage me while waving their arms around in the air.

Thejollygreenone

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Venom Arrow is my bow spammer right now, comical watching healers trying to heal and Sorcs trying to damage me while waving their arms around in the air.

Yeah, venom arrow ends up being the best spammable bow ability. Which is really unfortunate, considering it's a dot. Even furthermore considering it's an interrupt, akin to a shield bash, that is suppose to be used situationally.

But since there is nothing better out there at the moment, venom arrow fits the job the best. If snipe gets tweaked to be a bit less clunky then we could use that instead.

Until that happens, yeah, you're right to be using venom arrow. Although I personally like the idea of poison injection better, and use it because of that.

glitchmaster999

Selodaoc wrote: »

Bow needs some kind of single target spam skill.
There are dots, knockbacks and AoEs but no spammable normal skill.
You can remove one of the AoEs noone are using.

Venom arrow is closest but highest dps I've gotten with poison arrow spam even with animation cancelling and added dots is 600 which is low considering I'm still using two dots on top of that... I could not agree with this post more although I think that two hander is in the same boat, maybe light attacks should be buffed to be a viable source of damage by themselves? That way you could cast your dots and then light attack while still achieving a decent dps.

CapuchinSeven

Maybe but given the amount of casters in light armour out there right now, spamming it totally screws with their casting chi and more damage (mine already crits for 270 without the dot) could be OP.

Allowing the dot to stack would be nice maybe.

That said, given some of the crazy class/ultimates/vamp skills out there more direct damage would still be the last of everyones worries.

Cody

for bows the only spam skill we have is venom arrow. its pretty funny to use it on someone trying to use crystal fragments or soul strike/assault:)

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO

ZOS will not go for DoT stacking. That would be absurdly overpowered. Imagine 10 casts of poison arrow: the DoT would be doing 400-500+ per tick. Don't get me wrong, I would be tickled to death if I could do that. My go to single target dps rotation is crit surge + light attack w/ venom arrow clipping til its dead.

Potential fix that would appease players who want a stronger single target bow spam ability that ZOS will go for:

Poison Injection (Morph of Poison Arrow)
Corrosive poison degrades the armor of the target, reducing enemy armor by 40% for 10 sec.

or

Poison Injection (Morph of Poison Arrow)
Lethal toxins increase the target's susceptibility to poison, increasing poison damage taken by 20% for 10 seconds.

The current "execute" of Poison Injection is poorly designed. Every other execute in the game can be spammed at low health a.k.a the execute phase of the dps rotation.

If we can't have a stronger single target stam-spam, at the very least change poison injection to increase poison damage taken by the target when under 25% health... say 50%?

khele23eb17_ESO

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS will not go for DoT stacking. That would be absurdly overpowered. Imagine 10 casts of poison arrow: the DoT would be doing 400-500+ per tick. Don't get me wrong, I would be tickled to death if I could do that. My go to single target dps rotation is crit surge + light attack w/ venom arrow clipping til its dead.

DoT stacking does not automatically mean infinite stacks. It would stack as many times as they deem balanced.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO

I didn't think of that. That would work if we could get the dot to stack up to like 5 times.

CapuchinSeven

My Venom Arrow hits for around 300-350 a lot of times, with a 50 damage per tick DOT AND an interrupt, what more do you want?

I don't know what a lot of you are doing with your builds and armour sets sometimes.

khele23eb17_ESO

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

My Venom Arrow hits for around 300-350 a lot of times, with a 50 damage per tick DOT AND an interrupt, what more do you want?

Competitive sustainable dps?

I don't know what a lot of you are doing with your builds and armour sets sometimes.

And what is the sustainable dps with your bow build and armor sets?

Also the stacking effect should be on Poison Injection not Venom Arrow for PvP and general balance reasons.

CapuchinSeven

*shrug* dunno, don't care mostly. Craglorn, which I assume you're talking about, has no interest for me and I've yet to go.

I can hit VR12's in PVP for 300 Venom Arrows before the DOT, lowest I hit for is around 250 if they are running Immovable or something.

Patch 1.3, I wear 5 Hundings Rage, 4 Ashen's Grip and slot Flawless Dawnbreaker.

I visually see VR12's health getting ripped to pieces.

http://1drv.ms/1oHjyqC
http://1drv.ms/1oHjp6u
http://1drv.ms/1oHjrv2

Please bare in mind, I just logged on and snapped these pics as quick as I can in my lunch break at work just as an example. Also note in the 2nd pic my target changed from a VR12 to a VR4 because the VR12 dodge rolled, the damage from from hitting the VR12 and you can see his dodge rolls at the end.

khele23eb17_ESO

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

*shrug* dunno, don't care mostly. Craglorn, which I assume you're talking about, has no interest for me and I've yet to go.

I can hit VR12's in PVP for 300 Venom Arrows before the DOT, lowest I hit for is around 250 if they are running Immovable or something.

Patch 1.3, I wear 5 Hundings Rage, 4 Ashen's Grip and slot Flawless Dawnbreaker.

I visually see VR12's health getting ripped to pieces.

http://1drv.ms/1oHjyqC
http://1drv.ms/1oHjp6u
http://1drv.ms/1oHjrv2

Please bare in mind, I just logged on and snapped these pics as quick as I can in my lunch break at work just as an example. Also note in the 2nd pic my target changed from a VR12 to a VR4 because the VR12 dodge rolled, the damage from from hitting the VR12 and you can see his dodge rolls at the end.

*shrug* mass PvP has no interest for me and Ive yet to spend any significant amount of time doing it.

With that said I dont see any reason for you to be against dot stacking on Poison Injection or bow having competitive sustained dps in general as long as it doesnt influence PvP balance.

CapuchinSeven

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

*shrug* mass PvP has no interest for me and Ive yet to spend any significant amount of time doing it.

Okay, stick to PVE then and do more damage because you'll get more crits from it. That was my point. Someone elsewhere in another thread stated they are hitting with Venom Arrow in PVE for around 450 damage with the same build I'm using with the same armour sets.

How can that get anymore spammable for you? It's one of the fastest attack in the game, hits for 300-450 when built correctly, interrupts and finally places a DOT that ticks for around 50 damage on my build.

It's already what you want it to be.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

With that said I dont see any reason for you to be against dot stacking on Poison Injection or bow having competitive sustained dps in general as long as it doesnt influence PvP balance.

Because bow isn't the problem, light armour passives with never ending manna and restro staff damage passives are the reason magic builds are head and shoulders above all other builds.

There is nothing wrong with bow.

MorHawk

I don't know much about the mechanics here, but just from my impressions, DK's Unstable Flame is a far more spammable DoT than bow's poison stuff.

Actually, just looked it up. The comparison is telling:
http://www.esohead.com/skills/28869-poison-arrow
http://www.esohead.com/skills/20657-searing-strike

So as a DK bow user, I either use a skill that from these numbers, has less initial damage, is almost twice as expensive, takes longer to complete and has literally a quarter of the DoT damage, or throw out my entire playstyle and run up to melee range.

It's okay though right, because it has an interrupt? It's not like I can do that easily form melee range or anything...

CapuchinSeven

MorHawk wrote: »

I don't know much about the mechanics here, but just from my impressions, DK's Unstable Flame is a far more spammable DoT than bow's poison stuff.

Actually, just looked it up. The comparison is telling:
http://www.esohead.com/skills/28869-poison-arrow
http://www.esohead.com/skills/20657-searing-strike

...I'm sorry can I just be clear here that you think that an ability with a range of 28 meters should be compared to the damage of an ability with a range of 5 meters?

MorHawk wrote: »

It's okay though right, because it has an interrupt?

er yes actually, it's a skill that lands for 300 damage, has a DOT that ticks for another 300 damage and has a ranged interrupt.

That's the definition of an ability being fine.

MorHawk wrote: »

takes longer to complete

Are you even talking about the same skill as everyone else? Venom Arrow is one of the fastest skills in the game.

MorHawk

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

I don't know much about the mechanics here, but just from my impressions, DK's Unstable Flame is a far more spammable DoT than bow's poison stuff.

Actually, just looked it up. The comparison is telling:
http://www.esohead.com/skills/28869-poison-arrow
http://www.esohead.com/skills/20657-searing-strike

...I'm sorry can I just be clear here that you think that an ability with a range of 28 meters should be compared to the damage of an ability with a range of 5 meters?

MorHawk wrote: »

It's okay though right, because it has an interrupt?

er yes actually, it's a skill that lands for 300 damage, has a DOT that ticks for another 300 damage and has a ranged interrupt.

That's the definition of an ability being fine.

MorHawk wrote: »

takes longer to complete

Are you even talking about the same skill as everyone else? Acid Arrow is one of the fastest skills in the game.

Heh, knew there'd be someone, "herp, it's ranged so it should be crap".
I get it, increased range should equal decreased damage, or no-one would go melee. What I'm saying is that there's a line. Those '300' numbers are useless by themselves, and you just cut out my comparative numbers entirely. The point is that the discrepancy is so wide that the choice between the two is a given. That's a bad thing.

EDIT: also, let me clarify my "takes longer to complete" comment. I'm not talking about the animation time. Poison arrow's DoT lasts 10 seconds. Searing Strike takes 8.5. Ergo, the former takes longer to complete.

If you want a better comparison, look at Silver Bolts. Frig, I never realized this until I looked it up, but the thing does more damage instantly than PA does in total. Yes it's more expensive, and it lacks the interrupt (not really an issue though when fighting daedra/undead with the knockdown), but does it really sound right to you that the most spammable ranged stamina attack does not come from the Bow line?

Thejollygreenone

MorHawk wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

I don't know much about the mechanics here, but just from my impressions, DK's Unstable Flame is a far more spammable DoT than bow's poison stuff.

Actually, just looked it up. The comparison is telling:
http://www.esohead.com/skills/28869-poison-arrow
http://www.esohead.com/skills/20657-searing-strike

...I'm sorry can I just be clear here that you think that an ability with a range of 28 meters should be compared to the damage of an ability with a range of 5 meters?

MorHawk wrote: »

It's okay though right, because it has an interrupt?

er yes actually, it's a skill that lands for 300 damage, has a DOT that ticks for another 300 damage and has a ranged interrupt.

That's the definition of an ability being fine.

MorHawk wrote: »

takes longer to complete

Are you even talking about the same skill as everyone else? Acid Arrow is one of the fastest skills in the game.

Heh, knew there'd be someone, "herp, it's ranged so it should be crap".
I get it, increased range should equal decreased damage, or no-one would go melee. What I'm saying is that there's a line. Those '300' numbers are useless by themselves, and you just cut out my comparative numbers entirely. The point is that the discrepancy is so wide that the choice between the two is a given. That's a bad thing.

EDIT: also, let me clarify my "takes longer to complete" comment. I'm not talking about the animation time. Poison arrow's DoT lasts 10 seconds. Searing Strike takes 8.5. Ergo, the former takes longer to complete.

Also, Vampire's Bane. That a better comparison for poison arrow?

MorHawk

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Also, Vampire's Bane. That a better comparison for poison arrow?

http://www.esohead.com/skills/21726-sun-fire
Thankyou. Very appropriate. Just a hair more expensive, more than double the damage on both instant and DoT, and half the duration (5 seconds vs 10).

Does anyone still feel that Poison Arrow is reasonable?

khele23eb17_ESO

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

*shrug* mass PvP has no interest for me and Ive yet to spend any significant amount of time doing it.

Okay, stick to PVE then and do more damage because you'll get more crits from it. That was my point. Someone elsewhere in another thread stated they are hitting with Venom Arrow in PVE for around 450 damage with the same build I'm using with the same armour sets.

How can that get anymore spammable for you? It's one of the fastest attack in the game, hits for 300-450 when built correctly, interrupts and finally places a DOT that ticks for around 50 damage on my build.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

With that said I dont see any reason for you to be against dot stacking on Poison Injection or bow having competitive sustained dps in general as long as it doesnt influence PvP balance.

Because bow isn't the problem, light armour passives with never ending manna and restro staff damage passives are the reason magic builds are head and shoulders above all other builds.

There is nothing wrong with bow.

Light armor passives give you 21% cost reduction with 7 pieces, medium armor gives you 14%. Its a difference but 7% hardly makes light armor user's mana infinite. Neither does a 10% dmg boost from resto staff alone explain the much bigger sustainable dmg difference between staff builds and other weapons. The problem isnt as simplistic as you present it. Light and resto passives are a part of it but theyre not all thats involved. You have to look at skill dmg, skill mechanics, scaling, synergies, stamina split between skills and survival actions... its a bit of a mess atm.

Personally I wouldnt bother changing anything before fixing the clusterfudge at the core of things. Change all skills to use the blue bar with the same scaling mechanics and coeficients. Rename the bar 'Power'. You can start building a balanced skill system from there.

Kego

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Light armor passives give you 21% cost reduction with 7 pieces, medium armor gives you 14%. Its a difference but 7% hardly makes light armor user's mana infinite.

Thats right, and Stamina gots the bigger cost reduction cause 2H, Dual Wield and Bow has their own 20% cost reduction, makes a total of 34% reduction.

Neither does a 10% dmg boost from resto staff alone explain the much bigger sustainable dmg difference between staff builds and other weapons.

On this one we have other opinions. This DMG Buff means just 10% more sustainable DMG for any build that relies completly on their class Skills. A Mage that does in this way 1K DPS, will lose 100DPS if this 10% Buff goes away.

The problem isnt as simplistic as you present it. Light and resto passives are a part of it but theyre not all thats involved. You have to look at skill dmg, skill mechanics, scaling, synergies, stamina split between skills and survival actions... its a bit of a mess atm.

Main issue is the insane regeneration of Magicka. If a Boss gets the Elemental Drain Debuff and the Caster has Spell Symetrie he can just not run out of Magicka. Unlike Stamina Builds, that has noch equivalent to Elemental Drain and Spel Symetrie.

Remove Elemental Drain and Spell Symentrie and I bet, Magicka Builds will do around the same DMG as Stamina Builds.

Kego

About Poison Arrow:

Heh, knew there'd be someone, "herp, it's ranged so it should be crap".
I get it, increased range should equal decreased damage, or no-one would go melee. What I'm saying is that there's a line. Those '300' numbers are useless by themselves,

Poison Arrow and Light Attack can be perfectly weaved, means with every Light Attack, the Monster gets a Poison Arrow as well, netting in ~500-600DMG per Shot, with one Dot Tick it is around 550-650 DMG. If going for a Bow Build I would also bring in Arrow Spray and a Class specific Dot to push the DPS.

Arrow Spray hits for the same as Poison Arrow and apllies another DoT, as NB you could cast Crippling Grasp every 8 seconds for a third poweful DoT and low initial DMG (gives a huge boost for Ultimate gain thanks to passives). I think Bow in its current state could come around 700-800 DPS in Boss fights.

Take away Elemental Drain and Spell Symetrie from Magicka Builds and I bet those Build will be around that DPS as well.

khele23eb17_ESO

Kego wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Light armor passives give you 21% cost reduction with 7 pieces, medium armor gives you 14%. Its a difference but 7% hardly makes light armor user's mana infinite.

Thats right, and Stamina gots the bigger cost reduction cause 2H, Dual Wield and Bow has their own 20% cost reduction, makes a total of 34% reduction.

Neither does a 10% dmg boost from resto staff alone explain the much bigger sustainable dmg difference between staff builds and other weapons.

On this one we have other opinions. This DMG Buff means just 10% more sustainable DMG for any build that relies completly on their class Skills. A Mage that does in this way 1K DPS, will lose 100DPS if this 10% Buff goes away.

My point was that the difference between magicka and stamina is usually bigger than 100dps.

The problem isnt as simplistic as you present it. Light and resto passives are a part of it but theyre not all thats involved. You have to look at skill dmg, skill mechanics, scaling, synergies, stamina split between skills and survival actions... its a bit of a mess atm.

Main issue is the insane regeneration of Magicka. If a Boss gets the Elemental Drain Debuff and the Caster has Spell Symetrie he can just not run out of Magicka. Unlike Stamina Builds, that has noch equivalent to Elemental Drain and Spel Symetrie.

Remove Elemental Drain and Spell Symentrie and I bet, Magicka Builds will do around the same DMG as Stamina Builds.

Possibly... And you know what? They should be testing that. Every 2 weeks there should be a new build on the PTS with tweaked skills - not as part of the next patch but to see what players can do with the changes. You know, to test stuff... cause ZOS in house testing leaves much to be desired.

CapuchinSeven

MorHawk wrote: »

Heh, knew there'd be someone, "herp, it's ranged so it should be crap".

And I had a pretty good guess that'd you'd fabricate something I didn't say to make yourself a nice little strawman.

MorHawk wrote: »

Those '300' numbers are useless by themselves.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Also, Vampire's Bane. That a better comparison for poison arrow?

MorHawk wrote: »

If you want a better comparison, look at Silver Bolts.

But posting random tool tips in a game where the tool tips are totally different in game is helpful?

PLEASE do continue to ignore Long Shots, Accuracy, Ranger and Hawk Eye (after the interrupt) when comparing the damage and stamina costs of Venom Arrow to Vampires Bane and Silver Bolts (hint there are no damage passives in Dawn's Wrath).

Silver Bolts excels on undead targets but given the Slayer passive also works on Venom Arrow, AND you can slot Silver Bolts on a bow build if you wanted you people just keep showing yourselves up for what you are.

Kego

You are right. I for myself see Silver Bolt as a crap Skill, that has no space in my limited Skillbar.

• It scales of Stamina and SpellDMG, instead of Weapon DMG.
• It shines only against Deadra and Undead with it's Knockdown and 5% Chance of a DMG procc.
• The costs of Silver Bolt are way higher, cause the base costs of Venom Arrow is already lower and Venom Arrow gets 34% cost reduction, Silver Bolt ony 14%.

PLEASE do continue to ignore Long Shots, Accuracy, Ranger and Hawk Eye (after the interrupt) when comparing the damage and stamina costs of Venom Arrow to Vampires Bane and Silver Bolts (hint there are no damage passives in Dawn's Wrath)

Silver Bolts gets the Bonus of Long Shot and Accuracy, cause they only require you to equip a Bow. Ranger and Hawk Eye are for Bow DMG exclusive. But well, that makes Silver Bolt not better anyway. ^^

CapuchinSeven

Kego wrote: »

You are right. I for myself see Silver Bolt as a crap Skill, that has no space in my limited Skillbar.

• It scales of Stamina and SpellDMG, instead of Weapon DMG.
• It shines only against Deadra and Undead with it's Knockdown and 5% Chance of a DMG procc.
• The costs of Silver Bolt are way higher, cause the base costs of Venom Arrow is already lower and Venom Arrow gets 34% cost reduction, Silver Bolt ony 14%.

Totally agree, they are ignoring the fact that bow scales off of stamina and weapon damage and with a purple bow, 5 set Hundings Rage and 3 set Ashen's Grip there is substantial damage to be made.

Kego wrote: »

Silver Bolts gets the Bonus of Long Shot and Accuracy, cause they only require you to equip a Bow. Ranger and Hawk Eye are for Bow DMG exclusive. But well, that makes Silver Bolt not better anyway. ^^

That's interesting, I'd not noticed that before, I agree though Silver Bolts is not better and it shows a real lack of understanding of how to make a build in ESO to suggest that it's better simply because of a tool tip or that a tool tips damage is the be all and end all of the argument.

I'd argue with the right set up, Vampires Bane and Venom Arrow are very comparable (outside of bad ESOHead tool tips) and I'd take Venom Arrow for the interrupt (and extra damage from Hawk Eye when following it up) as well as the very very fast light attack, Venom Arrow, light attack weaving (even better for a Nightblade with Siphoning Attacks slotted and the never ending stamina from that fast combination).

MorHawk

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

And I had a pretty good guess that'd you'd fabricate something I didn't say to make yourself a nice little strawman.

But posting random tool tips in a game where the tool tips are totally different in game is helpful?

PLEASE do continue to ignore Long Shots, Accuracy, Ranger and Hawk Eye (after the interrupt) when comparing the damage and stamina costs of Venom Arrow to Vampires Bane and Silver Bolts (hint there are no damage passives in Dawn's Wrath).

Silver Bolts excels on undead targets but given the Slayer passive also works on Venom Arrow, AND you can slot Silver Bolts on a bow build if you wanted you people just keep showing yourselves up for what you are.

Lol, yes. Forgive my hyperbole. Almost as bad as your ad hominem attacks on the information I presented, rather than pointing out where you feel it's incorrect. and "You people"? Way to throw personal attacks around instead of discussing the subject.

Yes, I realize that Bolts scales off of spell damage instead of weapon (and weirdly, the proc damage scales off health for some reason), and you can of course build to improve that stat, but you can do that for spell damage too. Both options are available, so ignoring the discrepancies between set bonuses to the two stats, that's largely irrelevant to the comparison. As is the Slayer passive in regards to Silver Bolts, since as you say, it affects both. And the point about being able to put Bolts on a bow build is a complete non-statement. Of course you can slot whatever skills you want. What possible bearing does that even have on the comparison?

Thanks for pointing out the bow passives, that is an absolutely relevant point, but why would you mention Ranger and then discard the Dawn's Wrath passives? Bias much? Restoring Spirit reduces costs too, though obv by a lesser amount, and Enduring Rays increases duration. That would affect the DoT, no?

End of the day, I get that it's not as simple as just comparing tooltips, but frig man, it bears repeating. Sun fire does more than double the initial damage, and does more DoT damage in half the time. Are you really so biased to think that a few slightly better passives and an interrupt makes up for that?

CapuchinSeven

MorHawk wrote: »

Lol, yes. Forgive my hyperbole. Almost as bad as your ad hominem attacks on the information I presented.

You lack the ability to create or understand how ESO builds work, and yet are at the same time claiming a skill isn't very good. You've shown that a number of times and is directly related to your argument.

An ad hominem attack would be calling you a "stupid head" or insulting spelling like it some how mattered to the argument, which no one has done.

MorHawk wrote: »

What possible bearing does that even have on the comparison?

Because you are totally unable to grasp how ESO works. IF you want to have a conversation about how one ranged weapon skill is less powerful than another ranged weapon skill then lets do that, you'd have some valid ground. If you honestly think that Silver Bolts is better than Venom Arrow outside of anything other than killing Undead then, lol, by all means slot it instead, more power to you, have fun with that.

MorHawk wrote: »

Thanks for pointing out the bow passives, that is an absolutely relevant point, but why would you mention Ranger and then discard the Dawn's Wrath passives? Bias much? Restoring Spirit reduces costs too, though obv by a lesser amount, and Enduring Rays increases duration. That would affect the DoT, no?

I didn't, I'm assuming you don't actually have a Templar, there are no passives in that tree that can actively boost the damage as significantly as the bow passives, there is no bias.