Requesting video proof on countering oil traps at resource towers.

Okspaghetti

As a sorc, I hit crit surge, then bat ulti before going inside.
Followed by a quick blink I find myself behind them.

Then I am free to place an oil at their feet and dump it.
Alternatively go up the tower and try to oil from above.

If you group is coordinated, you can also just leave them. If they have nothing to kill they will eventually come out and jump the flag. If they stay there, you are free to capture other resources.

Ralathar44

Okspaghetti wrote: »

As a sorc, I hit crit surge, then bat ulti before going inside.
Followed by a quick blink I find myself behind them.

Then I am free to place an oil at their feet and dump it.
Alternatively go up the tower and try to oil from above.

If the back is not covered by people it's not a decent oil group lol.

themizario

Baphomet wrote: »

Set up oil pots outside the windows and oil the ground floor from outside until they are forced to back up - then rush in.

Been able to do this. Confirmed

Gravord

So to counter ppl abusing oil your advice is to abuse it more than them, sneaky!

Beedles

YOU wont see a video of anyone doing this, ITS a exploit of terrain(flat) and use(fast ) and placement(many in one area), only thing that beats it is numbers, yes there are a lot of spells that help but this doesn't not change the FACT its abusing a exploit.
what's next carrying oil pots on your heads and chasing people around , why not makes about as much sense as they way there being used now.

Breea

Gravord wrote: »

So to counter ppl abusing oil your advice is to abuse it more than them, sneaky!

It's actually called tactics.

Beedles wrote: »

YOU wont see a video of anyone doing this, ITS a exploit of terrain(flat) and use(fast ) and placement(many in one area), only thing that beats it is numbers, yes there are a lot of spells that help but this doesn't not change the FACT its abusing a exploit.
what's next carrying oil pots on your heads and chasing people around , why not makes about as much sense as they way there being used now.

Oil pots are able to be put down on flat terrain, there is no way to make them go any faster, and they are meant to be put down in any area of the map that is flat enough and like all siege engines there is a set distance they have to be from each other or from other siege. How is this an exploit if it is designed to be this way? I still don't get how people decide that something is an exploit when it was admitted to be part of the game's design. If the game is designed that you can use a siege item there, then you can use it there. It's like saying that putting a siege engine outside of a resource tower is an exploit if you use it to kill player characters. It's part of the design, not an exploit, and is a valid tactic to use it.

*EDIT* Spelling mistake.

AkelDamascus

Ralathar44 wrote: »

I'd like to see on of the guilds out there make a video showing them countering an Oil Trap at a resource tower without using Dragon Knights or overwhelming numbers.

Video proof isn't necessary as seasoned coordinated guilds have been countering it for months now with same or smaller numbers. Hint: All that's needed are some friends in voice comms with access to Alliance War level 4-6 skills and then the rest is just figuring out how to use them appropriately.

Happy hunting!

Gravord

Breea wrote: »

It's actually called tactics.

No its not, its just exploiting and nothing more. If 1 button oil spamming is what you see as tactic then its very very sad for you.
Was bat swarm exploiting also a "tactic" for you?

Junipus

Gravord wrote: »

Breea wrote: »

It's actually called tactics.

No its not, its just exploiting and nothing more. If 1 button oil spamming is what you see as tactic then its very very sad for you.
Was bat swarm exploiting also a "tactic" for you?

Would you kindly explain what you would consider 'tactics' in dealing with oil pots?

Remember that "banning" or "nerfing" aren't tactics any more than every other tactic people have mentioned on this thread.

Breea

Gravord wrote: »

Breea wrote: »

It's actually called tactics.

No its not, its just exploiting and nothing more. If 1 button oil spamming is what you see as tactic then its very very sad for you.
Was bat swarm exploiting also a "tactic" for you?

Gravord wrote: »

Breea wrote: »

It's actually called tactics.

No its not, its just exploiting and nothing more. If 1 button oil spamming is what you see as tactic then its very very sad for you.
Was bat swarm exploiting also a "tactic" for you?

Bat swarm was modified because it gave unintended results. I have yet to see one post by ZOS saying that oil pots aren't working as intended in fact the only responses I have seen by them have said that they are working perfectly as intended. An exploit is using a feature that is not supposed to be available to your advantage. Tactics are using features that are supposed to be available to your advantage. You understand the concept change I hope. An exploit is something that is not by design, not something that the game makers intended. The definition of an exploit or not is made by the game makers. Not all spells are created equal, not all classes are created equal, not all siege weapons are created equal. Finding out the best things to use and how to use them is the definition of tactics. This things are available to everyone, it's not like it's not something that you don't have access to and that your enemies do. It doesn't make the game lopsided, you just don't like how it can be used.

Gravord

Breea wrote: »

Bat swarm was modified because it gave unintended results. I have yet to see one post by ZOS saying that oil pots aren't working as intended in fact the only responses I have seen by them have said that they are working perfectly as intended. An exploit is using a feature that is not supposed to be available to your advantage. Tactics are using features that are supposed to be available to your advantage..

Please explain me how pouring oil tru solid wall and killing ppl on other side can be intended use. Lack of ZOS statement only prove once again they are not taking necessary actions to fix game instead working on some sooo need vanity pets or other ***.

dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »

Would you kindly explain what you would consider 'tactics' in dealing with oil pots?

Remember that "banning" or "nerfing" aren't tactics any more than every other tactic people have mentioned on this thread.

Better you tell me why you would need special tactic to counter few players exploiting oil. Are they playing high level skilled style? Are they using outstanding combinations of their abilities? Are they timing their dmg burst? Every few baddies exploiting oil can be super deadly and it have nothing to do with their player skills which in conclusion means oil is broken and too powerfull.

griszax

Gravord if u dont wan't to use special tactic for "exploiters " then don't ... more AP for AD and DC from auriels Just because Your raids can't handle oil doesn't mean they are op btw, and the only thing that needs fixing is that oil can go thro walls

Gravord

Nooo, you totally miss the point here. Im not having big problems killing oil exploiters. But its very boring "pvp' if at least 90% enemies we encounter is baddies hiding behind oil/catapults/npc and almost no one to do real fights.

Huckdabuck

Gravord wrote: »

Nooo, you totally miss the point here. Im not having big problems killing oil exploiters. But its very boring "pvp' if at least 90% enemies we encounter is baddies hiding behind oil/catapults/npc and almost no one to do real fights.

Sounds like you are a baddie and QQ'n about the intended use of said tactics. If you have no problems killing the oil pot/catapult/npc users, then why are you gnashing your teeth so much on the forums with their use? It's free AP if you are this uber awesomesauce PvP'er that you try to claim. And please don't say it's because of the noobs who don't know how to counter these tactics.

TomLukman

You won't see many successful counter oil videos out there because those exact oil exploiters promoting these good strategies vs. oil and/or insisting that oil shouldn't be changed fail hard to do it themselves when the tables get turned on them.

Gravord

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Nooo, you totally miss the point here. Im not having big problems killing oil exploiters. But its very boring "pvp' if at least 90% enemies we encounter is baddies hiding behind oil/catapults/npc and almost no one to do real fights.

Sounds like you are a baddie and QQ'n about the intended use of said tactics. If you have no problems killing the oil pot/catapult/npc users, then why are you gnashing your teeth so much on the forums with their use? It's free AP if you are this uber awesomesauce PvP'er that you try to claim. And please don't say it's because of the noobs who don't know how to counter these tactics.

I just did said why im against it. Its not pvp system if all you fight is oil, siege weapons and npc. I dont need free AP, i need good pvp fights vs other players actually fighting and using real tactics. One button oil/catapult spam is not tactic mate, no matter how hard you want believe in that.

Junipus

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of PvP fights out there that don't use oil. Even those which use oil and make it the centre focus of said fights are still good fights since you have an additional tactic to counter (it is a tactic, no matter how much you want to argue otherwise).

If you just want a 1v1 or 2v2 etc fight with abilities, stay away from large groups and resources and keeps.

If you want a large scale encounter without oil, participate in sieges. Plenty of keep sieges occur and oil on the outer walls is completely useless.

Alternatively, if you're in a guild, either request or organise a GvG (or whatever it's called) battle so you have ones without oil and rely on abilities.

Honestly, if none of the above or any other recommendations in this thread meet your criteria of good PvP fights then you're either just complaining for the sake of attention (which I'm doubt benefiting) or you need to redefine and/or share your definition of what a good PvP fight is.

If you want to avoid coming across as a complainer, you need to cooperate instead of dismissing.

Gravord

dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »

If you want a large scale encounter without oil, participate in sieges. Plenty of keep sieges occur and oil on the outer walls is completely useless.

Oki, now i know you are not serious. Keep sieges without oil, good one. Its only oil in there And merc spam ofc.

Definition of good pvp:
- players fighting players, no matter if its 1vs1, 4vs4, 8vs8 or 20+ vs 20+, numbers doesnt need to be equal on both sides
- NPC doesnt exist or are not relevant to fight outcome (currently ESO npc can hit x5 players dmg, should have no place in pvp area)
- siege weapons dont exist or dont determine fight outcome (like 2k dmg from every oil or insane heal debuff on meatbag catapult way higher and more effective than anything from player abilities)
- participating players play smart, fast and dynamic gameplay (lets hide in this small room with 10 oils and wait is not the way for that)
- real pvp tactics (again, 1 button smash oil/siege aint tactic)
- and finally, fighting teams are either close to equal in skills or less skilled team have more ppl so fight stay challenging and hard for both sides

Thats how you get real fun from pvp. Baddies spending all time online in pvp area on oil/siege missing all the point and fun from real pvp. And is ZOS job to tone down non player things - npc, oil, siege, and promote player vs player fights.

Huckdabuck

Gravord wrote: »

dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »

If you want a large scale encounter without oil, participate in sieges. Plenty of keep sieges occur and oil on the outer walls is completely useless.

Oki, now i know you are not serious. Keep sieges without oil, good one. Its only oil in there And merc spam ofc. Did mercs get put back into the game via a stealth patch or something...pretty sure they have been gone for a while now!

Definition of good pvp:
- players fighting players, no matter if its 1vs1, 4vs4, 8vs8 or 20+ vs 20+, numbers doesnt need to be equal on both sides Agreed but PvP = players fighting players so without that then it's PvE so this point is already understood
- NPC doesnt exist or are not relevant to fight outcome (currently ESO npc can hit x5 players dmg, should have no place in pvp area)NPC's are not an issue for my guild when taking ANYTHING and as such....they are irrelevant
- siege weapons dont exist or dont determine fight outcome (like 2k dmg from every oil or insane heal debuff on meatbag catapult way higher and more effective than anything from player abilities) Siege weapons are a basic part of Cyrodiil....I'm sorry but if you don't want that then go do gank groups or do as the guy your replying to says and organize a GvG
- participating players play smart, fast and dynamic gameplay (lets hide in this small room with 10 oils and wait is not the way for that)Who is the smarter player...someone using all facets of the game to win or someone who throws themselves at oil pots without a plan and hopes to win
- real pvp tactics (again, 1 button smash oil/siege aint tactic)You'll never see this game be more than 2 button mashes due to the metabuild of Staffs/LA...good luck though
- and finally, fighting teams are either close to equal in skills or less skilled team have more ppl so fight stay challenging and hard for both sidesSo a guild team fighting a pug zerg cover this.

Thats how you get real fun from pvp. Baddies spending all time online in pvp area on oil/siege missing all the point and fun from real pvp. And is ZOS job to tone down non player things - npc, oil, siege, and promote player vs player fights.

Replies in bold above.

Gravord

Probably players have so many of them stashed and still can see single player spawning 20 of them and from ZOS statement they will be avaiable via merchant soon again.

NPC hitting that dmg are problem: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/103382/npc-guards-after-patch-need-rollback#latest

SBR_QuorTek

Thing is people that PvP only wont have enough skill points or high enough of eg. undaunted XP to archieve certain skill point needs for additional stuff...

Everyone can become pretty much immortal for a very short period of time... but it involves more than one skill line or build up skills gained from this or that branch.

Huckdabuck

Gravord wrote: »

Probably players have so many of them stashed and still can see single player spawning 20 of them and from ZOS statement they will be avaiable via merchant soon again.

NPC hitting that dmg are problem: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/103382/npc-guards-after-patch-need-rollback#latest

I honestly haven't seen a mercenary pop in PvP since about 2 days after the stealth removed them from Cyrodiil. And that statement covers the following campaigns all on NA: Wabbajack/Bloodthorn/Chrysamere/Skullcrusher/Cerebus.

As for the ZOS statement saying they were coming back soon....they never set a date and obviously soon in their book can be anything from this very instant to well sometime before we shut off the servers and turn off the lights.

And I still stand by the statement I made that NPC's are non-issues to the group I run with. Now if I'm solo ganking or running with a pack of 2-3 others then maybe I'd be a little more conscious of them but as it stands now they just don't affect the playstyle of my group or myself. Sorry but I just don't see the issue other than you don't like the fact that they got buffed to VR5 when Craglorn came out because of how easy they were to roflstomp when taking taking over keeps.

Gravord

So you say its no problems to "pvp" where there are npc hitting 1.7k dmg while proper build player have awesome 3k hp? Pve mob able to 2 shot ppl? And they stand in packs, not solo.
Group of 4-6 can handle them if playing carefull but add any enemy players around and you need way more. Which only encourage zerging.
Not sure how it looks in your campaign but on EU Arulies Bow its something common those days to see inner keep postern wall down and attackers unable to take it due to oil/npc overload on wall breach and flag room.

Breea

Gravord wrote: »

So you say its no problems to "pvp" where there are npc hitting 1.7k dmg while proper build player have awesome 3k hp? Pve mob able to 2 shot ppl? And they stand in packs, not solo.
Group of 4-6 can handle them if playing carefull but add any enemy players around and you need way more. Which only encourage zerging.
Not sure how it looks in your campaign but on EU Arulies Bow its something common those days to see inner keep postern wall down and attackers unable to take it due to oil/npc overload on wall breach and flag room.

I don't know what zerg keeps trying to take over these places on Arulies Bow, but I run with a guild that does this on a daily basis. It's called strategy. There are only so many oil pots you can put over the door, only so many you can put on the stairs or upstairs. We've even learned to take a group and attack elsewhere as a diversion if there is a lot of players in one spot that we're trying to take. There are many ways around this and groups get past enemy oil, npcs and pcs all the time or keeps would never change hands.

PVP in ESO is not one on one, it is alliance on alliance. This is like comparing a rowing team that has two people to a rowing team that has ten people. The one that has ten people is more likely to win and if they have good coordination they are even more likely to win.

Huckdabuck

Gravord wrote: »

So you say its no problems to "pvp" where there are npc hitting 1.7k dmg while proper build player have awesome 3k hp? Pve mob able to 2 shot ppl? And they stand in packs, not solo.
Group of 4-6 can handle them if playing carefull but add any enemy players around and you need way more. Which only encourage zerging.
Not sure how it looks in your campaign but on EU Arulies Bow its something common those days to see inner keep postern wall down and attackers unable to take it due to oil/npc overload on wall breach and flag room.

The PvP guild group I run with currently is around 15-20 people so yeah 6 or 7 NPCs plus another group of 10+ opposing forces really aren't that big of a deal. We have healers who heal in that group and we focus fire down things. For any take type objective...Barrier/Rapid Maneuvers/Negate Magic on the flag/Standards/CC's while receiving friendly fire from oil/fire ballista's and meatbag catapults. I'm sure I missed something though.

On every NA campaign I've played on....if one wall has to much of anything....we strategically move to another wall/door and hit them at multiple points and viola the opposition gets broken down since they get scattered out. Try that out sometime...it's amazing how well it works.

I'm not going to say L2P but you may need to reevaluate what/how you are doing things to find a more fruitful outcome!

EDIT*Basically you're moving the argument from oil pots being OP to NPC's in Cyrodiil being OP. Am I correct? If so create a new thread and do not derail this one please.

Infraction

This thread may have devolved into an even bigger joke than it already was.

AkelDamascus

AkelDamascus wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

I'd like to see on of the guilds out there make a video showing them countering an Oil Trap at a resource tower without using Dragon Knights or overwhelming numbers.

Video proof isn't necessary as seasoned coordinated guilds have been countering it for months now with same or smaller numbers. Hint: All that's needed are some friends in voice comms with access to Alliance War level 4-6 skills and then the rest is just figuring out how to use them appropriately.

This has been a complaint ever since people stopped being able to be undamaged by enemy siege fire while standing on friendly caltrops. Some people just don't want to learn - they'd rather have the answer obvious, dumb, easy and unchanging.

Alliance War level 4-6 is all anyone needs to know; easy as pie with a little practice. In the likely case that that is too much info to take in, here's the lineup that should be in heavy use when entering a door/choke ambush: War Horn, Barrier, Maneuver, Immovable, Siege Shield, Purge. There. I didn't label the proper morphs and how to use them appropriately because if a PvP'er can't figure that bit out on their own then they clearly are in need of joining an organized AvA guild to help them get up to speed on how to play; a single player cannot expect to see those skills successfully used within a PuG army that is not jointly in comms.

These skills are really all anyone needs to know to counter many of the complaints on the forums (i.e. "Impulse Exploit") - it shows just how many people are simply not realizing the value of the skills being made available to them. Think about the bigger picture before considering the complaining that is done to be "theory crafting".

Most people playing ESO press a single key to move their character forward, and guess what, most have figured out that they can also press single keys to alternatively move *gasp* left OR right. If you haven't figured out any counters to oil and other traps on your own, then it's either time to take the earnest advice of others into practicing alternatives or go back to wondering why it hurts to drag your face against the ground.

Peace!

Ralathar44

There will always be defenders of something broken lol. Be it Bright Wizards (after EA interfered), Stunlock Rogues, Imperials in SWTOR at release, or healers in RIFT.

I've been around for a very long time. I started out on Dark Age of Camelot and I've seen more defenses of OP classes in that game than I've seen in...well....my play time since.

People really like their easy mode and others pridefully state that because they can counter it that it is balanced. Meanwhile this kind of crud just makes the entire PVP experience looks worse to people looking in as well as being imbalanced.

Ralathar44

Yet nobody has provided a video of busting through a decent oil farm. So far there was one video of a team busting through a half dead crappy oil farm.

I think that says it all honestly lol.

Aeaeren

Leaok wrote: »

Step 1) Equip Purge, Bone shield, Maneuvers and barrier Ultimate on your teams action bars
Step 2) Use these abilities
Step 3) Enter tower
Step 4) Rush to the top of the tower
Step 5) Clear the tower from top to bottom.

I will check to see if my guildmate who captures our fights has a tower clearing one.

That's how we do it, but another way is to just leave them to sit there until they get bored and come out then pop them. You can put up an FC at the keep for teleporting if you want to wait them out.