How to counter DK Claw (Talons) Spam?

Tintinabula

Vis wrote: »

Keep range on all DKs.

The vast majority will spam shield charge. Roll into them before they reach you. The better DKs have talons qued as they charge. The combined effect of this counter causes them to lose both stamina and magicka with no cc or damage done to you while putting yourself behind them and primed for another attack.

Countering before they arrive disorients and frustrates DKs as they waste resources.

Sorcs can interchange this with bolt as they try to save on stamina.

We just wanna hug..

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO

Keep range on DKs only points out how stupid this class is. How can anyone invent class that is untouchable in close combat?

If you make them die by 4 hits from a bow then I am ok with it. BUT if I attack him with sword and I need to run away immediatly as he spawned his crap standard and talons and other crap then what is this? You seriously do not see how OP it is. DK gets attacked, spawn his brainless skills (no aim or possitioning needed)
And wait until some other guys from his alliance arrives and kill his attacker while he sits in his circle of peace... Even the most lame player can do this. Spam one skill and hold block... Kill granted when your team killed your attacker.

Really dumb design as are all AOEs. Why aren't AOE spells channelled is beyond my understanding.

Mo-ack

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

ThyIronFist

Tintinabula wrote: »

We just wanna hug..

Well I don't.

I'm just sick and tired of scrubs complaining on the forums for everything that kills them and/or annoys them.

Talons already got nerfed twice thanks to these people crying for nerfs cause they haven't found a way to counter the Talon Spam.

Well, Purge, double roll, Rapid Manuever, Bolt Escape, Templars can spam Blazing Shield, Nightblades can go invisible and I've seen them completely disappear.

So stop saying it's OP and L2P.

Armitas

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

This costs 800 Stamina and it ends when you attack. Please explain how this is a viable counter.

monden1980b16_ESO

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

We just wanna hug..

Well I don't.

I'm just sick and tired of scrubs complaining on the forums for everything that kills them and/or annoys them.

Talons already got nerfed twice thanks to these people crying for nerfs cause they haven't found a way to counter the Talon Spam.

Well, Purge, double roll, Rapid Manuever, Bolt Escape, Templars can spam Blazing Shield, Nightblades can go invisible and I've seen them completely disappear.

So stop saying it's OP and L2P.

It just can't be that players have to plan their whole build around surviving DK talon (and standard of might) spam.

Purge: Has to be spammed to counter talons spam. Talons does damage anyways. Purge just removes root.
Rapid Maneuver: Costs a hell lot of stamina. After you attack again, its benefit (root immunity in this case) is gone. One gets charged and talon spammed again.
Bolt escape: Sorcerers have it, lucky sorcs...
Blazing shield: Not so bad, possibly the only thing that may work against DKs for Templars.

Plus, lag works in favour for PBAE spam abilities the DK has. It often seems, that roll dodge doesn't work due to lag. At the same time, abilities like Templar's biting jab often miss, even if in range, due to massive lag. Problems you as DK don't recognize as talons never misses.

I would not complain, if DKs were taking more damage or their self heal abilities would not be that great. It often seems that DKs are superior to other classes (especially templar) in every aspect... DPS, damage mitigation, CC, (self) heal and thus survivability.

Mo-ack

Armitas wrote: »

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

This costs 800 Stamina and it ends when you attack. Please explain how this is a viable counter.

Yes is expensive but its an Counter so long u not attacking. I use it to rushing in an zerg us talons puting up the flagg and going out with rppid M. and def and standing in scnd line and use my bow ore what ever on distance. Works realy good for me and my other Team Mates!

Infraction

Armitas wrote: »

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

This costs 800 Stamina and it ends when you attack. Please explain how this is a viable counter.

Its a viable option you can stop attacking long enough to reposition. Stop mindlessly swinging at your enemy especially one that in this case is just holding block. You arent doing any real damage anyhow so reposition and get a better position before attacking again.

Vis

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

Wow. I don't believe in nerfing DKs (except the no hit no cost bug), but even I must point out how horrible of an idea to use that as an escape. The dk will be like "oh well, if only I had a gap closer."

Vis

Infraction wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

This costs 800 Stamina and it ends when you attack. Please explain how this is a viable counter.

Its a viable option you can stop attacking long enough to reposition. Stop mindlessly swinging at your enemy especially one that in this case is just holding block. You arent doing any real damage anyhow so reposition and get a better position before attacking again.

At the cost of more than 2/3 your stamina? Why?

Vis

Even the DKs here must admit that "not hit, no cost" for talons is a super op bug.

Vis

monden1980b16_ESO wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

We just wanna hug..

Well I don't.

I'm just sick and tired of scrubs complaining on the forums for everything that kills them and/or annoys them.

Talons already got nerfed twice thanks to these people crying for nerfs cause they haven't found a way to counter the Talon Spam.

Well, Purge, double roll, Rapid Manuever, Bolt Escape, Templars can spam Blazing Shield, Nightblades can go invisible and I've seen them completely disappear.

So stop saying it's OP and L2P.

Rapid Maneuver: Costs a hell lot of stamina. After you attack again, its benefit (root immunity in this case) is gone. One gets charged and talon spammed again.
Bolt escape: Sorcerers have it, lucky sorcs...

Not so lucky. With a 4s cd, bolt matter as well be the magicka equivalent of rapid maneuvers.

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO

It's funny when faceroll DKs are suggesting us to use hell a lot costy skills only to escape from litteraly death trap. Only by escaping it we lose a lot of stamina and DK can start his offencive. Does this sounds fair? One instant aoe skill to destroy elment of surprise and force attacker into defence by a click of a button is utterly dumb if you ask me.

Mo-ack

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »

It's funny when faceroll DKs are suggesting us to use hell a lot costy skills only to escape from litteraly death trap. Only by escaping it we lose a lot of stamina and DK can start his offencive. Does this sounds fair? One instant aoe skill to destroy elment of surprise and force attacker into defence by a click of a button is utterly dumb if you ask me.

TO aske how to conter DK Talon Spam and is the only way u can escape ore roll out which is also high stamina use if they spamming them. Moste i see in PVP is that ppl charge an DK and wonder why they are dead so is rappid M. the best and cheapest way to counter. Sure its not the best way for Stami build. But iam using stami anly for Shield charge roll and rapid m.

Armitas

Infraction wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

This costs 800 Stamina and it ends when you attack. Please explain how this is a viable counter.

Its a viable option you can stop attacking long enough to reposition. Stop mindlessly swinging at your enemy especially one that in this case is just holding block. You arent doing any real damage anyhow so reposition and get a better position before attacking again.

I'm not sure I follow you here. If I pop this I will consume 800 stamina, in addition to the sprint cost for a reposition that will be overcome with a single invade. So now when I begin blockcasting again I will be down 900 stamina worth of blocking power with no reward for the cost except an ephemeral moment where I wasn't taloned.

Kwas

Armitas wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow you here. If I pop this I will consume 800 stamina, in addition to the sprint cost for a reposition that will be overcome with a single invade. So now when I begin blockcasting again I will be down 900 stamina worth of blocking power with no reward for the cost except an ephemeral moment where I wasn't taloned.

Wrong. After invasion you will be talon'ed again, this time with no chance to break the CC*

*Unless Rapid prevents knock down, then yes, you'll "only" be out of stamina**

** And Talon'ed again shortly after.

Armitas

Kwas wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow you here. If I pop this I will consume 800 stamina, in addition to the sprint cost for a reposition that will be overcome with a single invade. So now when I begin blockcasting again I will be down 900 stamina worth of blocking power with no reward for the cost except an ephemeral moment where I wasn't taloned.

Wrong. After invasion you will be talon'ed again, this time with no chance to break the CC*

*Unless Rapid prevents knock down, then yes, you'll "only" be out of stamina**

** And Talon'ed again shortly after.

So long as you don't attack and the duration of RM remains you are free from roots and snares so he can't talon you again unless you attack. But yeah as soon as you begin to attack you are going to be retaloned.

You reminded me that you can skill get knocked down when you unblock to make use of retreating maneuvers. So as soon as RM gets popped and you attempt to escape you will get invaded and knocked down making it even worse than I initially thought.

Thechemicals

Purge from alliance tree
Retreating manuevers from alliance tree

Nightblade has invisibility with snare removal morph
Sorcerer has bolt escape
Templar cleansing ritual auto removes it and gives like a couple other buffs. Sunshield and just stand in it.

Bow Scattershot with magnum morph pushes you away from talons.

Heavy armor has immovable which doesnt remove but does prevent
Light armor has a damageshield

Vampire has mist form
Werewolve I believe pounce launches you off the snare

Dodge rolling is effective.

Just blocking and staying in the talons is fine if you have range attack. The dots arent bad. If he dragon standards then roll out.


The truth about talon/standard Dk's with 1h/shield is that they have a tiny magicka pool and/or have problem regaining enough magicka in time. Another thing is that if they are blocking just attack with light/heavy attacks and drain their stamina.Make them use dragonblood just for stamina and the magicka pool goes away faster. They cant support enough stam and magicka so use your brain and fight them inteliigently

In large fights you need to use hard escapes, every class has them. Also you have to have some reflex. If its taking you 2-3 seconds to respond to talons+standard= your likely not fast enough and going to be dead.

This isnt a 1v1 game guys but if it were, Dk and templar blow there loads fast and they weaken as a fight goes on. Nightblade and Sorcerer can fight for longer periods because they have the best resource management. Play smart, dont just blow all your stamina and/or magicka 10 seconds into a fight with a dk then have no way to get out of his kill zone. Thats all he has is a killzone and some mediocre heals. They should never have been nerfed to begin with, the class was never a serious problem until you put an army of them together dropping standards but thats always going to look op when no one is using boneshield/barrier/ and purge.

TRIP233

Dodge roll, it will break you right out of the Talons and essentially made them waist their magicka. If they are dumb enough to do it again Dodge roll, rinse repeat. Talons in PvP is a waist of time.

Tintinabula

seriously..Girls in robes can get away from talons..roll...root us and roll!!..stun us and roll!!...ROLL BACK ONCE!..our aoe is so small now we have to be standing IN you for talons to hit...my god what else do you want?..DKs to roll FOR you?

Infraction

Armitas wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

This costs 800 Stamina and it ends when you attack. Please explain how this is a viable counter.

Its a viable option you can stop attacking long enough to reposition. Stop mindlessly swinging at your enemy especially one that in this case is just holding block. You arent doing any real damage anyhow so reposition and get a better position before attacking again.

I'm not sure I follow you here. If I pop this I will consume 800 stamina, in addition to the sprint cost for a reposition that will be overcome with a single invade. So now when I begin blockcasting again I will be down 900 stamina worth of blocking power with no reward for the cost except an ephemeral moment where I wasn't taloned.

Depends on your role in a fight. As a healer though I pop it and scatter. But then I also don't look at it as me versus the entirety of the other alliances. I'm typically in a small group and we do this weird thing of trying to coordinate abilities that the group needs.

Talons are frustrating but you use the counters available to give yourself a fighting chance. If you are constantly getting steamrolled by this by no common rotation then maybe look inward at your positioning or situational awareness.

I know as the healer in the group I am constantly on a swivel calling out enemies and direction during a fight to give my group an opportunity to know what's around them. It's a group oriented pvp system and some of these posts scream I'm mindlessly following a large group around getting rolled by these things.

Armitas

Infraction wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

This costs 800 Stamina and it ends when you attack. Please explain how this is a viable counter.

Its a viable option you can stop attacking long enough to reposition. Stop mindlessly swinging at your enemy especially one that in this case is just holding block. You arent doing any real damage anyhow so reposition and get a better position before attacking again.

I'm not sure I follow you here. If I pop this I will consume 800 stamina, in addition to the sprint cost for a reposition that will be overcome with a single invade. So now when I begin blockcasting again I will be down 900 stamina worth of blocking power with no reward for the cost except an ephemeral moment where I wasn't taloned.

Depends on your role in a fight. As a healer though I pop it and scatter. But then I also don't look at it as me versus the entirety of the other alliances. I'm typically in a small group and we do this weird thing of trying to coordinate abilities that the group needs.

Talons are frustrating but you use the counters available to give yourself a fighting chance. If you are constantly getting steamrolled by this by no common rotation then maybe look inward at your positioning or situational awareness.

I know as the healer in the group I am constantly on a swivel calling out enemies and direction during a fight to give my group an opportunity to know what's around them. It's a group oriented pvp system and some of these posts scream I'm mindlessly following a large group around getting rolled by these things.

If you are a healer with immovable this may work for you because you are not an attacker which would immediately end RM. As for the attackers if they do not have immovable they will be knocked down by invasion while trying to get 'better positioning'. If they have immovable then the positioning referred too will still be lost by invasion and should they attack even once, which is their job, they will be rooted.

Tintinabula

yea it seems to me people don't want to be rooted..ever!! they want an out always!..well sorry that's not the way root works..that's not the way pvp works.

I am a DK and occasionally I get rooted..in standard...with no stamina to roll. it happens..oh well.

Halrloprillalar

Tintinabula wrote: »

seriously..Girls in robes can get away from talons..roll...root us and roll!!..stun us and roll!!...ROLL BACK ONCE!..our aoe is so small now we have to be standing IN you for talons to hit...my god what else do you want?..DKs to roll FOR you?

Remind me the cost of dodge roll vs. cost of talons for light armor
Or the cost of rapid maneuver
Or the cost of purge vs. talons (I'm working on morphing it, ok)

Sorc root costs more than talons, requires targeting and does no damage (unless morphed, which is still pathetic damage). Can't stun a permablock DK. Invasion spam and whip/lash can be done while blocking. Talons requires no targeting.
Sorcs require very very precise timing to survive a DK encounter.

DKs just require their ult to be up.

The issue is not just talons, which isn't problematic in itself. It's the combination of unbreakable cc (invasion+talons if from stealth, no block = dead) and instants spam while blocking.

This is starting to feel an awful lot like the lolstorm warriors in Rift with teleports.

Infraction

Armitas wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Mo-ack wrote: »

i cant understand saying talons are overpowered all classes can have the skill Rapid Maneuver then its easy to escape!

This costs 800 Stamina and it ends when you attack. Please explain how this is a viable counter.

Its a viable option you can stop attacking long enough to reposition. Stop mindlessly swinging at your enemy especially one that in this case is just holding block. You arent doing any real damage anyhow so reposition and get a better position before attacking again.

I'm not sure I follow you here. If I pop this I will consume 800 stamina, in addition to the sprint cost for a reposition that will be overcome with a single invade. So now when I begin blockcasting again I will be down 900 stamina worth of blocking power with no reward for the cost except an ephemeral moment where I wasn't taloned.

Depends on your role in a fight. As a healer though I pop it and scatter. But then I also don't look at it as me versus the entirety of the other alliances. I'm typically in a small group and we do this weird thing of trying to coordinate abilities that the group needs.

Talons are frustrating but you use the counters available to give yourself a fighting chance. If you are constantly getting steamrolled by this by no common rotation then maybe look inward at your positioning or situational awareness.

I know as the healer in the group I am constantly on a swivel calling out enemies and direction during a fight to give my group an opportunity to know what's around them. It's a group oriented pvp system and some of these posts scream I'm mindlessly following a large group around getting rolled by these things.

If you are a healer with immovable this may work for you because you are not an attacker which would immediately end RM. As for the attackers if they do not have immovable they will be knocked down by invasion while trying to get 'better positioning'. If they have immovable then the positioning referred too will still be lost by invasion and should they attack even once, which is their job, they will be rooted.

I don't ever use immovable since it only helps me. I use maneuvers because it hits the people around me, same with purge.

Again though if you are randomly swinging away though instead of trying to reposition then ya you are playing right into a talon spamming DK. The sword and boards biggest strength is being in their face. You do not have to run that far to know that once you are out of their circle of the standard they will charge you which you block until they do and keep on moving.

If there was a 100 percent chance in pvp this would work without fail don't you think it would never be used? Sometimes I get caught out of position and it's my fault not the DK. Learn the strengths of what they are using and if it's something you run I to a lot build your bar around it.

I get knocked down and rooted all the time by DK's. I've learned the pattern from most of them though and try to avoid playing into their hands.

Armitas

Infraction wrote: »

I don't ever use immovable since it only helps me. I use maneuvers because it hits the people around me, same with purge.

Again though if you are randomly swinging away though instead of trying to reposition then ya you are playing right into a talon spamming DK. The sword and boards biggest strength is being in their face. You do not have to run that far to know that once you are out of their circle of the standard they will charge you which you block until they do and keep on moving.

If there was a 100 percent chance in pvp this would work without fail don't you think it would never be used? Sometimes I get caught out of position and it's my fault not the DK. Learn the strengths of what they are using and if it's something you run I to a lot build your bar around it.

I get knocked down and rooted all the time by DK's. I've learned the pattern from most of them though and try to avoid playing into their hands.

I understand your point if playing a healing role with immovable and attackers to help you but how are you able to do this without immovable?

The reason I ask is that you cannot cannot also reposition while blocking due to its slow movement speed and the moment you give the DK the distance to Invade he will do so. Even if you block the knockdown you cannot reposition yourself because invade is a 22 meter gap closer. Even if he is not root spamming you he is hitting you from behind at range after the successive invades (typically lava whip 8 meter range)

* It costs over 800 stamina
* If you sprint with it that costs more stamina
* You can't attack
* You can't block while fleeing due to slow movement speed while blocking.
* If you flee without blocking or immovable (which costs over 400stam) you will be knocked down.
* Even if you flee to your 'reposition' destination it will immediately be overcome by a 22 meter gap closer that only costs a 1/3 of your reposition cost, does damage, can/will knock you down.

RM does have it's place in a group setting, or in your case for healing when you have immovable and/or attackers that can root the DK from invading while you get out, but as just a general or personal counter I can't see where it wouldn't be a waste. As a 1v1 it would seem to be a fatal mistake. RM seems to be more of a specific answer to a specific situation rather than a general response to talon spam.

Tintinabula

strange how talons isn't a problem to me...hmm wonder what I'm doing right?

Halrloprillalar

Tintinabula wrote: »

strange how talons isn't a problem to me...hmm wonder what I'm doing right?

playing a DK?

Tintinabula

yup..is there some special DK ability i have that prevents me from being taloned? Please enlighten.

Halrloprillalar

Tintinabula wrote: »

yup..is there some special DK ability i have that prevents me from being taloned? Please enlighten.

Why would you care about being rooted if they're in melee and you're in melee and you can just continue to melee?

TALON BATTLE COMMENCE.