Dear Devs, pre-VR campaign = incredible opportunity

ConquerorDromtar

First off I'd like to give you a huge THANK YOU for planning a pre-VR campaign. I think that will go a long way toward bringing some parity and enjoyment back into PVP. That being said, you've got a huge opportunity here if you GIVE PLAYERS THE CHOICE TO TURN OFF XP GAINS.

As soon as I told my guild a pre-VR campain was in the works the ubiquitous responses were all along the lines of "That would be perfect for lowbie alt twinks!"

Yeah, I said the "dreaded" T-word. Only in this game that's not such a bad thing. With all of the different skill and gearing choices we've got and the relatively small power increases with each level and gear upgrade a sub-VR campaign has the potential to become a very competitive PVP environment. To be frank, I'd rather do that than participate in a VR campaign where we're always chasing the Golden Carrot of higher VR and gear.

Knowing that I'll be able to have a PVP alt or two perpetually at 49 is exciting and revitalizes the game for me. The 1-50 game is still the best part of what you've designed and now I've got the opportunity to go through the DC and AD (my main's EP) content with purpose and a goal.

TL:DR- Giving players the **option** to turn off XP gains is beneficial for the following reasons.

1. Revitalizes the game; gives players a reason for going through the 1-50 content on different alliances.

2. "Twinking" will benefit crafters and encourage use of all available content to gear characters.

3. A stable level cap will create a very competitive environment without the worries of chasing ever-increasing VR levels and gear.

4. Players that wish to continue leveling in PVP will have the option to do so.


Please seriously consider giving players the option to turn off XP gains.

<edited for formatting>

Azarul

So basically you want the same thing as now. You will be lvl 49 in the best gear and most skill points dominating people who are not.

Kiljaz

That's how I see it too. Twinkers just want god mode. Look at me, I just slaughtered 5 level 10s! I'm pro!

Each to their own though.

SwampRaider

except thats not how it works.

EVERYONE in the Pre VR campaign will have VR1 stats

Nijjion

SwampRaider wrote: »

except thats not how it works.

EVERYONE in the Pre VR campaign will have VR1 stats

But level 49 had so many more skill points and skills over a level 10. So stats is only half the battle for balance.

wpitterlb14a_ESO

Azarul wrote: »

So basically you want the same thing as now. You will be lvl 49 in the best gear and most skill points dominating people who are not.

This.

The whole reason they are putting in a non-vr campaign is so that players level 10-49 will feel like they are on a more level playing field. And you want them to add in a mechanic that will allow people to stay there and dominate the competition permanently with twink gear. Seems like the opposite of what they are going for.

SwampRaider

wpitterlb14a_ESO wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

So basically you want the same thing as now. You will be lvl 49 in the best gear and most skill points dominating people who are not.

This.

The whole reason they are putting in a non-vr campaign is so that players level 10-49 will feel like they are on a more level playing field. And you want them to add in a mechanic that will allow people to stay there and dominate the competition permanently with twink gear. Seems like the opposite of what they are going for.

gear wont matter. Only skill points. There is no such thing as "twink gear" when everyone is scaled.

Azarul

SwampRaider wrote: »

wpitterlb14a_ESO wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

So basically you want the same thing as now. You will be lvl 49 in the best gear and most skill points dominating people who are not.

This.

The whole reason they are putting in a non-vr campaign is so that players level 10-49 will feel like they are on a more level playing field. And you want them to add in a mechanic that will allow people to stay there and dominate the competition permanently with twink gear. Seems like the opposite of what they are going for.

gear wont matter. Only skill points. There is no such thing as "twink gear" when everyone is scaled.

So your saying a Level 49 legendary sword doesn't do anymore damage than a level 10 white sword in Cyrodiil?

Dudis

Azarul wrote: »

So your saying a Level 49 legendary sword doesn't do anymore damage than a level 10 white sword in Cyrodiil?

Yeh, as long as the scaling is activated.

SwampRaider

Dudis wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

So your saying a Level 49 legendary sword doesn't do anymore damage than a level 10 white sword in Cyrodiil?

Yeh, as long as the scaling is activated.

this

ConquerorDromtar

I agree, the "field filler" or "cannon fodder" phenomenon is an unfortunate consequence of having 1-49+ players together in the same PVP environment. Without creating more brackets for 1-10, etc like WoW did, the higher leveled characters will have a wider variety of stronger skills and equipment than the lower leveled characters. I've been there and feeling like cannon fodder sucked. However, at least players will have the choice of continuing to level in PVE or PVP as they do now and they will have the choice to halt XP gains and invest significant time in their character at pre-VR levels. In effect nothing will change except a community of XP-locked pre-VR characters will build over time if players choose to do so.

That being said, giving players the option to halt XP gains will still be beneficial for the reasons in my first post.

Personally, I've got a VR12 character that I could still do PVP with, but I would prefer to use it for progression PVE and have the option to sit at 49 on an alt built specifically for PVP. Many of my guild mates feel the same way.

My fondest memories of PVP in any game was sitting at 60 in WoW earning the rank and (eventually) honor points required to purchase the lvl 60 gear, then sitting there until the mandatory XP gains came about. Why was it so fun? There was a community of people doing the same thing. Over time we got to know each other and built rivalries with players of opposing factions that added a lot to the experience.

The same thing can happen here, only on a grander scale. Here in ESO we can build entire armies of XP-locked PVP alts and the persistent "open world" of Cyrodiil is perfect for encouraging friendly (hopefully) competition and rivalry between groups.

I'll be frank, I've done the VR1-10 questing thing and I don't ever want to do it again. I WOULD be very interested in experiencing DC and AD content at 1-49 levels and then investing a significant amount of time planning skills and improving gear knowing that it will last a long time, unlike a VR campaign where one must keep up with increasing VR levels and gear.

Bloodvax

You basically want end game content but dont want to do the grind for it. Easy way out?

wpitterlb14a_ESO

SwampRaider wrote: »

wpitterlb14a_ESO wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

So basically you want the same thing as now. You will be lvl 49 in the best gear and most skill points dominating people who are not.

This.

The whole reason they are putting in a non-vr campaign is so that players level 10-49 will feel like they are on a more level playing field. And you want them to add in a mechanic that will allow people to stay there and dominate the competition permanently with twink gear. Seems like the opposite of what they are going for.

gear wont matter. Only skill points. There is no such thing as "twink gear" when everyone is scaled.

Dudis wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

So your saying a Level 49 legendary sword doesn't do anymore damage than a level 10 white sword in Cyrodiil?

Yeh, as long as the scaling is activated.

I think the general assumption is that the scaling will be reduced in the 10-49 campaign so that, just like the regular campaigns, once you reach higher end (say, levels 35-49), your natural stats and gear will be more powerful than the scaled stats. It wouldn't make much sense otherwise. Seriously who the hell would want to play pvp where everyone has literally identical stats regardless of level, armor, weapon, skill choices, etc. There would still be some variability due to what skills people choose to slot, but it would just be incredibly bland. I know, I played beta pvp when there was a level cap of 17, it was lame as hell.

That said, I suppose we don't really know. Maybe everyone does get scaled to vr1 or vr5 stats. It still gives some advantage to the higher level players who have access to more and better skills, have more passives, etc. You can reach level 50 in multiple skills lines before you hit vr1, so you'll have players with maxed out light armor skill line for example giving significant amounts of mana regen, spell crit, spell resist, spell resist bypass, etc. They will be much more likely to have obtained armor sets with bonuses (more spell crit, magicka regen, etc), weapons and jewelry with much more powerful enchants.

liquid_wolf

Azarul wrote: »

So your saying a Level 49 legendary sword doesn't do anymore damage than a level 10 white sword in Cyrodiil?

In what testing I did during my 1-49 PVP... it didn't appear to matter if I had all epic/legendary level 49 gear. The scaling messed with everything.

Perhaps my damage went up one or two points, but in the grand scheme of 15v15 and greater... it didn't matter.

One on one? At this point it is still class/spec based. The gear hardly plays a role.

ConquerorDromtar

No, I want endgame content on my VR character. I'm asking for the option to have an XP-locked PVP alt that I can spend the time improving without worrying about losing all of that time and effort by gaining the 1 XP that'll push the character over the edge into VR1.

This request isn't about wanting a super-powerful character to use for wasting lvl 10s so I can feel better about myself. I could do that now with a VR character if I wanted. Truth be told, that's not something that interests me in the slightest. What excites me about this possibility is that people can make an alt and play through the best part of the game (1-49) with a purpose and clear goal. It's about improving replayability and engendering all of the positive aspects of PVP; competition, community, and cooperation in a stable and reliable (level-wise) environment.

My original post was a request for an option that I feel will add to the PVP game and help build a community. It's an option that I, and many of the people I talked to about this idea, feel will help breathe new life into the game, not take anything away from it.

galiumb16_ESO

I would be in favor of this so folks can choose if they want to bother with Veteran Ranks or not in a by character basis. I have one character that is V12, but I would be happy to keep my others at 49 forever. I have leveling options for 1-50, but VR is just a grind that doesnt interest me in doing twice. More importantly I am not really that interested in staying on the level grind forever, which appears might be the case for veteran ranks. If I have to get a couple new levels and all new gear every couple months, I would rather just polish off a level 49 character and play it.

CosmicChaos

Azarul wrote: »

So your saying a Level 49 legendary sword doesn't do anymore damage than a level 10 white sword in Cyrodiil?

You know I think it is just adorable that you thing Weapon damage has a significant impact on your capabilities. To be honest I don't know why anyone would want to stay below vet ranks. I am a V6 and I can't wait until the campaign is vet players only. People exaggerate the difference in power at vet level. v1-v4 are at a slight disadvantage due to the set bonuses available later. Once you reach V5 you are more than capable against a V12 with a proper tuned build.

Azarul

CosmicChaos wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

So your saying a Level 49 legendary sword doesn't do anymore damage than a level 10 white sword in Cyrodiil?

You know I think it is just adorable that you thing Weapon damage has a significant impact on your capabilities. To be honest I don't know why anyone would want to stay below vet ranks. I am a V6 and I can't wait until the campaign is vet players only. People exaggerate the difference in power at vet level. v1-v4 are at a slight disadvantage due to the set bonuses available later. Once you reach V5 you are more than capable against a V12 with a proper tuned build.

Sorry, I just thought the enchant and trait at a level 49 weapon would be different than a level 10 in Cyrodiil. I understand the armor mechanics of Cyrodiil, but thought the weapons would make a difference. Apparently I am wrong and stand corrected.

I am currently V9 and know full well I am capable of taking down a V12.

fyendiarb16_ESO

LFM lvl 49's with best gear only! Noobs need not reply!

If there is one thing I hate about pvp it is twinking and the effect it has on everyone else. The whole idea I get from the change to a pre-VR campaign is to combat the difference between top level and low level as much as possible. Giving players new to ESO pvp a smoother way into the action without being cannon fodder. Allowing this twinking nonsense goes against that idea completely.

You can say whatever you want about the scaling and that it gets lower levels somewhat up to par with the twinkies, but in the end the twinkies will gather up in groups, have access to all maxed out skill lines and abilities and the best gear they can find at 49. The situation would be almost as bad as it is now.

Take a look at those "this OP class soloed this and that!" video's and you will see that they all use class and weapon abilities you don't have access to for most of the leveling time pre-VR. Twinkies would still be gods compared to normal players thanks to the combination of that, the gear, the organization they will have, etc.

I am not saying I don't want challenging pvp, I am not saying I don't want people to be stronger than me in pvp, but the pre-VR in my mind is the perfect place to get into pvp without getting stuck with twinked out gank groups that demolish everything in their path. The other campaigns have room for that, it just takes a lot more work for the twinkies to get what they want.

So the TL;DR version: If you want to be a twinky, level to max veteran rank, you have every other campaign open for that playstyle. Don't try to ruin the pre-VR campaign before it even started.

P.s. I will be playing in multiple campaigns spread out over alts, none are veterans yet (not counting the pvp rank). One of those will be on the more relaxed pre-VR campaign, the others will be in the same situation as they are now, just with more action since currently they are stuck in ghost town campaigns with nothing to do.

SwampRaider

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

LFM lvl 49's with best gear only! Noobs need not reply!

If there is one thing I hate about pvp it is twinking and the effect it has on everyone else. The whole idea I get from the change to a pre-VR campaign is to combat the difference between top level and low level as much as possible. Giving players new to ESO pvp a smoother way into the action without being cannon fodder. Allowing this twinking nonsense goes against that idea completely.

You can say whatever you want about the scaling and that it gets lower levels somewhat up to par with the twinkies, but in the end the twinkies will gather up in groups, have access to all maxed out skill lines and abilities and the best gear they can find at 49. The situation would be almost as bad as it is now.

Take a look at those "this OP class soloed this and that!" video's and you will see that they all use class and weapon abilities you don't have access to for most of the leveling time pre-VR. Twinkies would still be gods compared to normal players thanks to the combination of that, the gear, the organization they will have, etc.

I am not saying I don't want challenging pvp, I am not saying I don't want people to be stronger than me in pvp, but the pre-VR in my mind is the perfect place to get into pvp without getting stuck with twinked out gank groups that demolish everything in their path. The other campaigns have room for that, it just takes a lot more work for the twinkies to get what they want.

So the TL;DR version: If you want to be a twinky, level to max veteran rank, you have every other campaign open for that playstyle. Don't try to ruin the pre-VR campaign before it even started.

P.s. I will be playing in multiple campaigns spread out over alts, none are veterans yet (not counting the pvp rank). One of those will be on the more relaxed pre-VR campaign, the others will be in the same situation as they are now, just with more action since currently they are stuck in ghost town campaigns with nothing to do.

you are forgetting that THE ONLY advantage that level 49's have is skill points. They will still have the same magicka and hp pool as anyone else.

murmur

SwampRaider wrote: »

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

LFM lvl 49's with best gear only! Noobs need not reply!

If there is one thing I hate about pvp it is twinking and the effect it has on everyone else. The whole idea I get from the change to a pre-VR campaign is to combat the difference between top level and low level as much as possible. Giving players new to ESO pvp a smoother way into the action without being cannon fodder. Allowing this twinking nonsense goes against that idea completely.

You can say whatever you want about the scaling and that it gets lower levels somewhat up to par with the twinkies, but in the end the twinkies will gather up in groups, have access to all maxed out skill lines and abilities and the best gear they can find at 49. The situation would be almost as bad as it is now.

Take a look at those "this OP class soloed this and that!" video's and you will see that they all use class and weapon abilities you don't have access to for most of the leveling time pre-VR. Twinkies would still be gods compared to normal players thanks to the combination of that, the gear, the organization they will have, etc.

I am not saying I don't want challenging pvp, I am not saying I don't want people to be stronger than me in pvp, but the pre-VR in my mind is the perfect place to get into pvp without getting stuck with twinked out gank groups that demolish everything in their path. The other campaigns have room for that, it just takes a lot more work for the twinkies to get what they want.

So the TL;DR version: If you want to be a twinky, level to max veteran rank, you have every other campaign open for that playstyle. Don't try to ruin the pre-VR campaign before it even started.

P.s. I will be playing in multiple campaigns spread out over alts, none are veterans yet (not counting the pvp rank). One of those will be on the more relaxed pre-VR campaign, the others will be in the same situation as they are now, just with more action since currently they are stuck in ghost town campaigns with nothing to do.

you are forgetting that THE ONLY advantage that level 49's have is skill points. They will still have the same magicka and hp pool as anyone else.

Skill points AND leveled skill trees. And that is what makes the huge difference between 10 and 49.

SwampRaider

murmur wrote: »

SwampRaider wrote: »

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

LFM lvl 49's with best gear only! Noobs need not reply!

If there is one thing I hate about pvp it is twinking and the effect it has on everyone else. The whole idea I get from the change to a pre-VR campaign is to combat the difference between top level and low level as much as possible. Giving players new to ESO pvp a smoother way into the action without being cannon fodder. Allowing this twinking nonsense goes against that idea completely.

You can say whatever you want about the scaling and that it gets lower levels somewhat up to par with the twinkies, but in the end the twinkies will gather up in groups, have access to all maxed out skill lines and abilities and the best gear they can find at 49. The situation would be almost as bad as it is now.

Take a look at those "this OP class soloed this and that!" video's and you will see that they all use class and weapon abilities you don't have access to for most of the leveling time pre-VR. Twinkies would still be gods compared to normal players thanks to the combination of that, the gear, the organization they will have, etc.

I am not saying I don't want challenging pvp, I am not saying I don't want people to be stronger than me in pvp, but the pre-VR in my mind is the perfect place to get into pvp without getting stuck with twinked out gank groups that demolish everything in their path. The other campaigns have room for that, it just takes a lot more work for the twinkies to get what they want.

So the TL;DR version: If you want to be a twinky, level to max veteran rank, you have every other campaign open for that playstyle. Don't try to ruin the pre-VR campaign before it even started.

P.s. I will be playing in multiple campaigns spread out over alts, none are veterans yet (not counting the pvp rank). One of those will be on the more relaxed pre-VR campaign, the others will be in the same situation as they are now, just with more action since currently they are stuck in ghost town campaigns with nothing to do.

you are forgetting that THE ONLY advantage that level 49's have is skill points. They will still have the same magicka and hp pool as anyone else.

Skill points AND leveled skill trees. And that is what makes the huge difference between 10 and 49.

yes, but if you have an ounce of skill on you, a level 15 could kill a level 49 with ease.

Just like a V3 can kill a v12.


I remember way back during Early Release, I, a level 48 Templar, got 1 shot by a level 10 Nightblade out of stealth.

Teargrants

ConquerorDromtar wrote: »

GIVE PLAYERS THE CHOICE TO TURN OFF XP GAINS.

Go back under your bridge, fail troll is fail.

So you and your buddies want to enjoy ganking on noobies w/ lvl 49 twinks that have been fully geared out w/ superior set bonuses that real lowbies don't have enough traits to craft? Make 49 the new V12?

Kolache

If players were looking to destroy noobs with the biggest advantage possible, wouldn't they go to a regular campaign?

Putting level 10s in the same bracket as VR10/12s is the biggest mistake ESO made with PvP. People won't even bother to pay their dues getting destroyed in PvP when it's obvious the system is so poorly designed that they're likely to not have many people to even play with after they get on equal footing.

This solution was so inevitable and obvious from the start. It really makes me sad to think of all the new blood this game bled/will bleed away while waiting for what should have been considered from the start.

Teargrants

@Kolache‌
That's the point, the new round of campaigns will have a dedicated lvl 10-49 only campaign. It doesn't take a genius to see that's where all the non vets are going to play. Hence ppl who want to gank on noobs will roll alts, twink them out as much as possible, and go to that campaign.

Limitless

I've PVP'd ever since I was able to, which was pretty much at the start of the game. I never quested VR, I solely PVP'd which of course meant I lagged behind in levels but that becomes less of a problem when you hit VR3-5.

I think letting people turn off XP gain would be a horrible decision. The new campaign is pretty much a practice campaign for lowbies to see what it's like without the worry of getting two shotted by some jerk in full Daedric.

It's not meant to be a campaign where everyone gets to play, but it's meant to be a campaign where everyone can learn how to play. It's already hard enough for low levels to find groups in regular campaigns, much less to actually do well in them.

So yeah, XP gain off would be a horrible choice and it would just let elitist players stay 49 and mess with the lowbies just to get their jollies off.

ConquerorDromtar

I think everyone's forgetting three important facts here:

1. Regardless of campaign, low levels will have to fight higher levels; whether that's 49 or VRXYZ. That's a fact of game design that isn't going away.

2. People are already be able to create tricked out gear sets and play with that. That's also a fact of game design that's not going away. Turning off XP will only serve to keep that gear from becoming obsolete and the effort put into making it wasted after a short while.

3. Lower level characters, whether lvl 10 or VRX, are currently getting roflstomped by higher levels. I went to Cyrodiil last night on a level 11 to do what I could do and yes, I died quickly and often. That's a fact of PVP; people who put the time in to improve their level, skills, and gear will beat people who aren't as skilled (character skills and personal gaming skill), are lower level, and/or aren't geared as well.



This request isn't about wanting to "get my jollies off destroying lowbies". I don't know about you, but when I'm faced with a squad of incoming players I can't sit there and pick out an opponent based on level; the action's too fast and the people move around too much. I simply target the nearest player and go at it. Perhaps I'm being naive and idealistic thinking that there are a bunch of other people like me that do PVP for group battles and taking objectives rather than maliciously targeting people who can't fight back.

All this to say that nothing.nothing...about the situation is going to change except there won't be VR level players in one of the five campaigns. Everything else is going to be the same; low levels will have to play against high levels.

My request for an XP-off option is based on the desire to end a character's progression at a given point. I've got a VR12 main who I PVE and PVP with and keeping up with increasing levels and gear on one character is enough for me. I don't want to have to do that on all of my characters. That's a rat race/carrot-chase that I don't want to have to deal with at all times. The idea of having a character that will always be at a certain, consistent, level that I can hop on when I want to tool around is very appealing.

Kolache

@Kirsika‌

And you think that the solution to this problem is not in the mechanics of the bolster itself? How long do you think it will take someone to level a few times in their late 40s if they don't bother doing quests? Will it be of some consolation to you knowing that some day they just might level out of your bracket?

If this is going to be a real problem, then the forced leveling out of that campaign is about as well-thought-out of design consideration as the original campaign system that got us here in the first place. If players don't want to level anymore to PvP, your end-game PvP sucks. If you create a new system that allows disparity, for any amount of time, that matches the current issues you're trying to resolve, then your solution sucks.

Azarul

@ConquerorDromtar I honestly believe you want this for the right reasons that you have expressed. I just worry about the other 99% of people out there.

ConquerorDromtar

@Azarul‌

Thank you.

Kewljag_66_ESO

ConquerorDromtar wrote: »

First off I'd like to give you a huge THANK YOU for planning a pre-VR campaign. I think that will go a long way toward bringing some parity and enjoyment back into PVP. That being said, you've got a huge opportunity here if you GIVE PLAYERS THE CHOICE TO TURN OFF XP GAINS.

As soon as I told my guild a pre-VR campain was in the works the ubiquitous responses were all along the lines of "That would be perfect for lowbie alt twinks!"

Yeah, I said the "dreaded" T-word. Only in this game that's not such a bad thing. With all of the different skill and gearing choices we've got and the relatively small power increases with each level and gear upgrade a sub-VR campaign has the potential to become a very competitive PVP environment. To be frank, I'd rather do that than participate in a VR campaign where we're always chasing the Golden Carrot of higher VR and gear.

Knowing that I'll be able to have a PVP alt or two perpetually at 49 is exciting and revitalizes the game for me. The 1-50 game is still the best part of what you've designed and now I've got the opportunity to go through the DC and AD (my main's EP) content with purpose and a goal.

TL:DR- Giving players the **option** to turn off XP gains is beneficial for the following reasons.

1. Revitalizes the game; gives players a reason for going through the 1-50 content on different alliances.

2. "Twinking" will benefit crafters and encourage use of all available content to gear characters.

3. A stable level cap will create a very competitive environment without the worries of chasing ever-increasing VR levels and gear.

4. Players that wish to continue leveling in PVP will have the option to do so.


Please seriously consider giving players the option to turn off XP gains.

<edited for formatting>

Turning off exp is a bad idea. Your suppose to want to keep improving and progressing your character to be as strong as possible and make a name for yourself. Not stop him at a point so you can stay in an easymode campaign and have an advantage over lower level less experienced players and never face the strong enemy players. This is almost the same exact problem now with high vets vs low or pre vets.

The pre vet campaign should be a like a training ground for the REAL CAMPAIGN WARS. There should also be an Alliance rank cap of like rank 5 or something. you shouldnt get to level your alliance rank way up past vet players just because you can kill "easy targets" all day long. I think the best idea is to make this campaign guest only as wwell with no bonuses. The Bonuses should be coming from your Real War campaign that your guild is in.