1.2.0 PTS note feedback on all 4 classes and their balance, third-person changes needed, & more.

Attorneyatlawl

Needed: FOV for third-person + max zoom distance slider, when I can't even zoom out far enough to keep a boss from taking up 1/3 of my screen as a melee'r or see more than 10 feet to my sides, that's a problem in both raids and pvp for situational awareness.

Class balance: Further DK nerfs are completely un-needed, or anything much further on Templar/nb/sorc buffs beyond bug fixes such as Dark Cloak breaking on some dots erroneously.

DK's have had their resource regeneration slaughtered due to the global ultimate changes and being dependent on dropping ults to keep their resources up. Their talons are now melee range and have been nerfed in duration further on PTS to be a speedbump without even dodgerolling. Their DPS is now about the same as a good dot-specced NB but the NB can also drop a 30% damage reduction field (1.5x the dk's self-only one) for people that has a 60% reduction for themselves (3x the DK's) + snares at 70% instead of 30% in exchange for the heal debuff. DK's are forced to stay in melee range for DPS'ing in pve and pvp while sorcs/nb/temp all have good ranged specs for heals and DK has none, and sorcs/nb have good ranged dps specs.

Sorc pets now have received a much-overdue pet attack/passive command and pets that stealth with them which will make them usable spells in PVE and PVP, as well as even further ranged damage buffs. Add in that they can now dark deal on the go to regenerate magicka/health while moving at-will and they've seen some great improvements in 1.2

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

Templars need some DPS love still but they saw some good changes to their utility with the lifetap spear jabs buff, and searing light now dealing more damage + blinding flashes being fixed up. They now have an aoe sparks (dw skill) basically that affects all attacks and does much higher damage. Their main issue has just been resource generation, which is by far worse than the NB/sorc and is a little below the DK at this point. They benefit hugely with having some main attacks/heals having a cast timer or channel for use with the Soulshine set available.

Lighting changes: Love the extra graphics quality brought to the table with this addition.

New vet dungeon & craglorn difficulty: I see the notes calling it out as balanced for V12 characters, hoping it provides useful loot for us . I'm also hopeful that the craglorn difficulty changes called out will make the content (non-raid/or shada's tear (the poison sewers area) etc. non-trivial in challenge.

Set bonuses: Would like to see details about the changes to them. I also see the Wise Mage set being called out as having its crit "fixed", what has it been changed to for example as it is currently a paltry 1% on live?

Asava

You forgot about sorc Bolt Escape "adjustment". Something needs to give for it to be usable.
1. Regen penalty needs to be dropped completely.
2. Range needs to be doubled to 30m

As you currently have it set up there's a regen penalty so we don't regen for 5 seconds. While that is running if we use BE again within 4 seconds then we get no regen for 10 seconds as well as a 50% increase in majicka use while moving us 30m. A sorc can't get out of danger using BE 2x as well as fighting then we're just light armored fodder and an unpaying customer. Now if BE range was extended if would be useful as an escape from gap closers that all currently exceed BE's range which is why we have to hit it 2-3 times just to break contact. Hitting BE 1 time WILL NOT break contact. 15m is not enough for a gap extender when gap closers are all 18-22m.

Attorneyatlawl

The bolt escape change now says it only affects out of combat regeneration on the tooltip. I tried it out on the PTS and you just take a 50% hit from the base cost, with no further increases, for consecutive Bolts. So 300 base, cast again = 450, cast again = 450, cast again = 450.... wait 4 seconds, cast again, 300... it's a really minor nerf.

Really hope they don't ignore third-person camera view fixes needed such as higher zoom-out distance from your character, and an option to center the camera instead of having it off to the right of your character . It's great and all that they're doing some fixes for first-person, but I'm surprised they aren't touching third-person when the same kinds of changes have been asked for as long as that one has been.

Phantorang

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Needed: FOV for third-person + max zoom distance slider, when I can't even zoom out far enough to keep a boss from taking up 1/3 of my screen as a melee'r or see more than 10 feet to my sides, that's a problem in both raids and pvp for situational awareness.

Class balance: Further DK nerfs are completely un-needed, or anything much further on Templar/nb/sorc buffs beyond bug fixes such as Dark Cloak breaking on some dots erroneously.

DK's have had their resource regeneration slaughtered due to the global ultimate changes and being dependent on dropping ults to keep their resources up. Their talons are now melee range and have been nerfed in duration further on PTS to be a speedbump without even dodgerolling. Their DPS is now about the same as a good dot-specced NB but the NB can also drop a 30% damage reduction field (1.5x the dk's self-only one) for people that has a 60% reduction for themselves (3x the DK's) + snares at 70% instead of 30% in exchange for the heal debuff. DK's are forced to stay in melee range for DPS'ing in pve and pvp while sorcs/nb/temp all have good ranged specs for heals and DK has none, and sorcs/nb have good ranged dps specs.

Sorc pets now have received a much-overdue pet attack/passive command and pets that stealth with them which will make them usable spells in PVE and PVP, as well as even further ranged damage buffs. Add in that they can now dark deal on the go to regenerate magicka/health while moving at-will and they've seen some great improvements in 1.2

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

Templars need some DPS love still but they saw some good changes to their utility with the lifetap spear jabs buff, and searing light now dealing more damage + blinding flashes being fixed up. They now have an aoe sparks (dw skill) basically that affects all attacks and does much higher damage. Their main issue has just been resource generation, which is by far worse than the NB/sorc and is a little below the DK at this point. They benefit hugely with having some main attacks/heals having a cast timer or channel for use with the Soulshine set available.

Lighting changes: Love the extra graphics quality brought to the table with this addition.

New vet dungeon & craglorn difficulty: I see the notes calling it out as balanced for V12 characters, hoping it provides useful loot for us . I'm also hopeful that the craglorn difficulty changes called out will make the content (non-raid/or shada's tear (the poison sewers area) etc. non-trivial in challenge.

Set bonuses: Would like to see details about the changes to them. I also see the Wise Mage set being called out as having its crit "fixed", what has it been changed to for example as it is currently a paltry 1% on live?

First of all: QQ! you say: "DK's have had their resource regeneration slaughtered due to the global ultimate changes and being dependent on dropping ults to keep their resources up"

Poor poor DKs, not being able to spam ultimate AND keep their resources up at the same time. The fact that DKs are still able to keep resources up at all is totally imbalanced from a Templar point of view. Templar lost that ability in late beta. DK-Templar wont be even close to balanced before this applies to DKs too.

DKs point of view is totally far out for a Templar. To even say that DKs only got a little better resource generation than Templar is the understatement of the year, as Templar got nothing.

Phantorang

Asava wrote: »

You forgot about sorc Bolt Escape "adjustment". Something needs to give for it to be usable.
1. Regen penalty needs to be dropped completely.
2. Range needs to be doubled to 30m

As you currently have it set up there's a regen penalty so we don't regen for 5 seconds. While that is running if we use BE again within 4 seconds then we get no regen for 10 seconds as well as a 50% increase in majicka use while moving us 30m. A sorc can't get out of danger using BE 2x as well as fighting then we're just light armored fodder and an unpaying customer. Now if BE range was extended if would be useful as an escape from gap closers that all currently exceed BE's range which is why we have to hit it 2-3 times just to break contact. Hitting BE 1 time WILL NOT break contact. 15m is not enough for a gap extender when gap closers are all 18-22m.

A 100% guaranteed escape button isnt good enough for you, you need it to be 2000% kill everyone in sight and god mode for you to be happy.. Oh wait, it already is god mode. Wasnt nearly as nerfed as it is going to be in future patches, they just nerf it some here and some there so the QQs of losing god mode wont be so hard on you.

Baphomet

A templar's regen ain't too shabby if you're using skills like reflective lights and puncturing strikes. Puncturing strikes generates a lot of ult due to its many hits during the channel and after the single target ult boost, sun fire is pretty darn good, too. The main problem is that the templar's best ult, nova, should cost 200 ult instead of 250.

Nightblades' and sorcerers' ult gain is now much superior to that of the DKs and templars. With my nightblade, I can pretty much do the old DK+Werewolv routine, using light attack weaving with funnel health and death strole slotted to very, very quickly charge up my 2nd ultimate, which can be veil of blades of soul assault.

If anyone thinks that DKs have good ult gain or resources management right now, they don't really have a clue what's going on. Light armored staff DKs are decent (still inferior to nightblades and sorcerers), but if you build you DK differently (god forbid like a tank) you're probably worse off than a templar.

Rammi

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

LOOOOOLLLL

Firstly I don't play a DOT Spec and don't want to so that is invalid. Also you do know that Siphoning attacks reduces dmg output for 22% yes thats 22% and they are nerfing this by reducing the resources you get back in 1.2.

Your post is a wall of inaccuracies where you use builds that are not linked to make counter points. You also pull in vamp to the equation, not every NB is a vamp.

Its an incoherent rant where you make a bunch of assumptions around people builds when the main outcry is all to do with stamina builds and the use of weapons not being effective. I have messed around with my build and tried a bunch of different options and cannot get above 275 dps for the type of gamestyle i wish to play (Bow/DW). I would have to sacrifice the way i want to play to improve that and I'm not willing to do so.

I do agree that NB have good utility but that is about it.

spliffmaster2b16_ESO

Nova is 300 ultimate, not 250.
Problem with Templar sustain is magicka, not ultimate. I mean ultimate is bad too but Templars don't even have any halfway decent single target DPS ultimate so it doesn't matter.
Problem with Jabs is that it scales off weapon crit while everything else, including burning light procs scale off spell crit so it's hard to make an efficient build.

Solid

Baphomet wrote: »

but if you build you DK differently (god forbid like a tank) you're probably worse off than a templar.

Heavy armour wearing DK tank here......

Khivas_Carrick

spliffmaster2b16_ESO wrote: »

Nova is 300 ultimate, not 250.
Problem with Templar sustain is magicka, not ultimate. I mean ultimate is bad too but Templars don't even have any halfway decent single target DPS ultimate so it doesn't matter.
Problem with Jabs is that it scales off weapon crit while everything else, including burning light procs scale off spell crit so it's hard to make an efficient build.

Wait Biting Jabs scales off of Weapon Crit and stuff? What?

Khivas_Carrick

Rammi wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

LOOOOOLLLL

Firstly I don't play a DOT Spec and don't want to so that is invalid. Also you do know that Siphoning attacks reduces dmg output for 22% yes thats 22% and they are nerfing this by reducing the resources you get back in 1.2.

Your post is a wall of inaccuracies where you use builds that are not linked to make counter points. You also pull in vamp to the equation, not every NB is a vamp.

Its an incoherent rant where you make a bunch of assumptions around people builds when the main outcry is all to do with stamina builds and the use of weapons not being effective. I have messed around with my build and tried a bunch of different options and cannot get above 275 dps for the type of gamestyle i wish to play (Bow/DW). I would have to sacrifice the way i want to play to improve that and I'm not willing to do so.

I do agree that NB have good utility but that is about it.

To be fair, weapons period need buffs, big time. Again I do not know why ZoS hates physical things, but as stated many times before, it needs to change badly and it needs to change soon.

Also are you using all Bow/DW skills or do you have magical stuff mixed in with that?

Attorneyatlawl

Rammi wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

LOOOOOLLLL

Firstly I don't play a DOT Spec and don't want to so that is invalid. Also you do know that Siphoning attacks reduces dmg output for 22% yes thats 22% and they are nerfing this by reducing the resources you get back in 1.2.

Your post is a wall of inaccuracies where you use builds that are not linked to make counter points. You also pull in vamp to the equation, not every NB is a vamp.

Its an incoherent rant where you make a bunch of assumptions around people builds when the main outcry is all to do with stamina builds and the use of weapons not being effective. I have messed around with my build and tried a bunch of different options and cannot get above 275 dps for the type of gamestyle i wish to play (Bow/DW). I would have to sacrifice the way i want to play to improve that and I'm not willing to do so.

I do agree that NB have good utility but that is about it.

Wrong. It reduces spell power and weapon power by 22%, not damage. That equates to about 8-12% damage depending on what equipment you're wearing.

That really needs to be emphasized. I don't mean to sound snide here, but you're yet another example of why the devs keep getting mixed and poor quality feedback that doesn't reflect on how the game actually works at all. And to think you call my thoughts based on the facts an "incoherent rant"....

Weapon skills also aren't class skills... if you think bow/DW needs a buff that's great, but that doesn't mean NB's do. As far as going only 275 DPS I think my nightblade was doing that at level 25 as a dual-wielder. As a vet rank you literally can sit there spamming Blood Craze and hit that, so your number is a complete red herring with little to do with reality. I still run (for pvp) dw/swordboard on mine, and for PVE dw/resto.

Gecko

Rammi wrote: »

Firstly I don't play a DOT Spec and don't want to so that is invalid. Also you do know that Siphoning attacks reduces dmg output for 22% yes thats 22% and they are nerfing this by reducing the resources you get back in 1.2.

Technically, they are just changing the tooltip on Siphoning Attacks. It has done 2.5% return since launch, not 4% like the current tooltip shows. I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of that. Unless they nerfed it more.

Attorneyatlawl

Gecko wrote: »

Rammi wrote: »

Firstly I don't play a DOT Spec and don't want to so that is invalid. Also you do know that Siphoning attacks reduces dmg output for 22% yes thats 22% and they are nerfing this by reducing the resources you get back in 1.2.

Technically, they are just changing the tooltip on Siphoning Attacks. It has done 2.5% return since launch, not 4% like the current tooltip shows. I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of that. Unless they nerfed it more.

Yeah, that's another major inaccuracy of Rammi's post there, and a good one to point out. Siphoning Attacks also is not a 22% damage debuff but just a weapon power/spell power debuff, it translates to about an 8-12% damage decrease depending on how much spell/weapon power you have from gear.

alexj4596b14_ESO

Baphomet wrote: »

A templar's regen ain't too shabby if you're using skills like reflective lights and puncturing strikes. Puncturing strikes generates a lot of ult due to its many hits during the channel and after the single target ult boost, sun fire is pretty darn good, too. The main problem is that the templar's best ult, nova, should cost 200 ult instead of 250.

Nightblades' and sorcerers' ult gain is now much superior to that of the DKs and templars. With my nightblade, I can pretty much do the old DK+Werewolv routine, using light attack weaving with funnel health and death strole slotted to very, very quickly charge up my 2nd ultimate, which can be veil of blades of soul assault.

If anyone thinks that DKs have good ult gain or resources management right now, they don't really have a clue what's going on. Light armored staff DKs are decent (still inferior to nightblades and sorcerers), but if you build you DK differently (god forbid like a tank) you're probably worse off than a templar.

However 1 ULT is non damage based and gives nice heals only last 11.3 seconds, one locks us out of our other bars and then replaces it with another one our attacks are limited, the last one can be killed, it has a health bar. And last like 8 seconds and plain pure damage. Still shouldn't make us OP in any case in theory.

alexj4596b14_ESO

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

spliffmaster2b16_ESO wrote: »

Nova is 300 ultimate, not 250.
Problem with Templar sustain is magicka, not ultimate. I mean ultimate is bad too but Templars don't even have any halfway decent single target DPS ultimate so it doesn't matter.
Problem with Jabs is that it scales off weapon crit while everything else, including burning light procs scale off spell crit so it's hard to make an efficient build.

Wait Biting Jabs scales off of Weapon Crit and stuff? What?

Umm no it should scale off spell power and spell crit.

Asava

Phantorang wrote: »

Asava wrote: »

You forgot about sorc Bolt Escape "adjustment". Something needs to give for it to be usable.
1. Regen penalty needs to be dropped completely.
2. Range needs to be doubled to 30m

As you currently have it set up there's a regen penalty so we don't regen for 5 seconds. While that is running if we use BE again within 4 seconds then we get no regen for 10 seconds as well as a 50% increase in majicka use while moving us 30m. A sorc can't get out of danger using BE 2x as well as fighting then we're just light armored fodder and an unpaying customer. Now if BE range was extended if would be useful as an escape from gap closers that all currently exceed BE's range which is why we have to hit it 2-3 times just to break contact. Hitting BE 1 time WILL NOT break contact. 15m is not enough for a gap extender when gap closers are all 18-22m.

A 100% guaranteed escape button isnt good enough for you, you need it to be 2000% kill everyone in sight and god mode for you to be happy.. Oh wait, it already is god mode. Wasnt nearly as nerfed as it is going to be in future patches, they just nerf it some here and some there so the QQs of losing god mode wont be so hard on you.

The problem is that once a sorc is in melee range it's game over for them. The other 3 classes have gap closers and the sorc has the only gap opener. A sorc will die after 1 KD and without any way to get some range they'll be fodder. Currently all gap closers have a longer range than the BE gap opener. I understand that numbers are difficult for you even after you take off your shoes to count but let me assure you that 18-22m gap closers is longer than a 15m gap opener. Go ask your mom if that's true, I'll wait. As it is now BE is not a 100% guaranteed escape. DK's have caught me quite a few times and smart Templars use spears to knock me down and catch me. Once they have me in melee range then I have maybe 3 seconds to either burn them down or gtfo of dodge with BE. Usually it's run because the sorcs main damage ability is casted and everyone can see it. Most people with half a brain will interrupt the sorc casting shards. Those that don't often die about 5 seconds later. There is no middle ground where sorcs can wade into battle and take damage while shrugging it off like DK and Templars can. A sorc rolls in there, gets knocked down and it's game over for said sorc.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

spliffmaster2b16_ESO

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

spliffmaster2b16_ESO wrote: »

Nova is 300 ultimate, not 250.
Problem with Templar sustain is magicka, not ultimate. I mean ultimate is bad too but Templars don't even have any halfway decent single target DPS ultimate so it doesn't matter.
Problem with Jabs is that it scales off weapon crit while everything else, including burning light procs scale off spell crit so it's hard to make an efficient build.

Wait Biting Jabs scales off of Weapon Crit and stuff? What?

Umm no it should scale off spell power and spell crit.

Well it doesn't matter how it should be, fact is it scales off magicka, spell power, weapon crit and is mitigated by armor. This is very easy to test.

Khivas_Carrick

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

spliffmaster2b16_ESO wrote: »

Nova is 300 ultimate, not 250.
Problem with Templar sustain is magicka, not ultimate. I mean ultimate is bad too but Templars don't even have any halfway decent single target DPS ultimate so it doesn't matter.
Problem with Jabs is that it scales off weapon crit while everything else, including burning light procs scale off spell crit so it's hard to make an efficient build.

Wait Biting Jabs scales off of Weapon Crit and stuff? What?

Umm no it should scale off spell power and spell crit.

Dude somebody said it did and that nearly messed me up real bad lol. No way that was right XD

Khivas_Carrick

Asava wrote: »

Phantorang wrote: »

Asava wrote: »

You forgot about sorc Bolt Escape "adjustment". Something needs to give for it to be usable.
1. Regen penalty needs to be dropped completely.
2. Range needs to be doubled to 30m

As you currently have it set up there's a regen penalty so we don't regen for 5 seconds. While that is running if we use BE again within 4 seconds then we get no regen for 10 seconds as well as a 50% increase in majicka use while moving us 30m. A sorc can't get out of danger using BE 2x as well as fighting then we're just light armored fodder and an unpaying customer. Now if BE range was extended if would be useful as an escape from gap closers that all currently exceed BE's range which is why we have to hit it 2-3 times just to break contact. Hitting BE 1 time WILL NOT break contact. 15m is not enough for a gap extender when gap closers are all 18-22m.

A 100% guaranteed escape button isnt good enough for you, you need it to be 2000% kill everyone in sight and god mode for you to be happy.. Oh wait, it already is god mode. Wasnt nearly as nerfed as it is going to be in future patches, they just nerf it some here and some there so the QQs of losing god mode wont be so hard on you.

The problem is that once a sorc is in melee range it's game over for them. The other 3 classes have gap closers and the sorc has the only gap opener. A sorc will die after 1 KD and without any way to get some range they'll be fodder. Currently all gap closers have a longer range than the BE gap opener. I understand that numbers are difficult for you even after you take off your shoes to count but let me assure you that 18-22m gap closers is longer than a 15m gap opener. Go ask your mom if that's true, I'll wait. As it is now BE is not a 100% guaranteed escape. DK's have caught me quite a few times and smart Templars use spears to knock me down and catch me. Once they have me in melee range then I have maybe 3 seconds to either burn them down or gtfo of dodge with BE. Usually it's run because the sorcs main damage ability is casted and everyone can see it. Most people with half a brain will interrupt the sorc casting shards. Those that don't often die about 5 seconds later. There is no middle ground where sorcs can wade into battle and take damage while shrugging it off like DK and Templars can. A sorc rolls in there, gets knocked down and it's game over for said sorc.

Ohhhh man you're on something strong lol

Natjur

Sorcs are not the only 'range' class, but they are the only class that has a gap opener.

To get ok DPS, a templar has to go range\light armor\resto staff\desto staff.
They will be just as weak as a Sorc in the Templar 'mage buid'.

All clases have a 'range mage' build, a melee dps build, a healer build and a tank build. But only sorcs get the gap opener that can be used a few times in a row to get insane distance.

Why should sorcs get the only 'get out of jail free' card? Now, its getting 'balanced'.

A sorc can have a pet build with 7 heavy armor and a sword and board and take the damage, but they just have little dps (unlike the DK), so no sorc bothers. If you pick 5+ light armor, sure you can not take the hits, but a lot of other classes play the 5+ light armor and go down just as fast as a sorc

Arreyanne

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rammi wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

LOOOOOLLLL

Firstly I don't play a DOT Spec and don't want to so that is invalid. Also you do know that Siphoning attacks reduces dmg output for 22% yes thats 22% and they are nerfing this by reducing the resources you get back in 1.2.

Your post is a wall of inaccuracies where you use builds that are not linked to make counter points. You also pull in vamp to the equation, not every NB is a vamp.

Its an incoherent rant where you make a bunch of assumptions around people builds when the main outcry is all to do with stamina builds and the use of weapons not being effective. I have messed around with my build and tried a bunch of different options and cannot get above 275 dps for the type of gamestyle i wish to play (Bow/DW). I would have to sacrifice the way i want to play to improve that and I'm not willing to do so.

I do agree that NB have good utility but that is about it.

Wrong. It reduces spell power and weapon power by 22%, not damage. That equates to about 8-12% damage depending on what equipment you're wearing.

That really needs to be emphasized. I don't mean to sound snide here, but you're yet another example of why the devs keep getting mixed and poor quality feedback that doesn't reflect on how the game actually works at all. And to think you call my thoughts based on the facts an "incoherent rant"....

Weapon skills also aren't class skills... if you think bow/DW needs a buff that's great, but that doesn't mean NB's do. As far as going only 275 DPS I think my nightblade was doing that at level 25 as a dual-wielder. As a vet rank you literally can sit there spamming Blood Craze and hit that, so your number is a complete red herring with little to do with reality. I still run (for pvp) dw/swordboard on mine, and for PVE dw/resto.

Wrong. It reduces spell power and weapon power by 22%, not damage. That equates to about 8-12% damage depending on what equipment you're wearing.

Guess you cant read the current tool tip it plainly says weapon and spell damage good try though

Attorneyatlawl

Arreyanne wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rammi wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

LOOOOOLLLL

Firstly I don't play a DOT Spec and don't want to so that is invalid. Also you do know that Siphoning attacks reduces dmg output for 22% yes thats 22% and they are nerfing this by reducing the resources you get back in 1.2.

Your post is a wall of inaccuracies where you use builds that are not linked to make counter points. You also pull in vamp to the equation, not every NB is a vamp.

Its an incoherent rant where you make a bunch of assumptions around people builds when the main outcry is all to do with stamina builds and the use of weapons not being effective. I have messed around with my build and tried a bunch of different options and cannot get above 275 dps for the type of gamestyle i wish to play (Bow/DW). I would have to sacrifice the way i want to play to improve that and I'm not willing to do so.

I do agree that NB have good utility but that is about it.

Wrong. It reduces spell power and weapon power by 22%, not damage. That equates to about 8-12% damage depending on what equipment you're wearing.

That really needs to be emphasized. I don't mean to sound snide here, but you're yet another example of why the devs keep getting mixed and poor quality feedback that doesn't reflect on how the game actually works at all. And to think you call my thoughts based on the facts an "incoherent rant"....

Weapon skills also aren't class skills... if you think bow/DW needs a buff that's great, but that doesn't mean NB's do. As far as going only 275 DPS I think my nightblade was doing that at level 25 as a dual-wielder. As a vet rank you literally can sit there spamming Blood Craze and hit that, so your number is a complete red herring with little to do with reality. I still run (for pvp) dw/swordboard on mine, and for PVE dw/resto.

Wrong. It reduces spell power and weapon power by 22%, not damage. That equates to about 8-12% damage depending on what equipment you're wearing.

Guess you cant read the current tool tip it plainly says weapon and spell damage good try though

Wow... just no words . The terms "weapon" and "spell" damage are the same thing as power. They are your ratings on your character sheet that contribute towards the final ACTUAL ABILITY DAMAGE on your ability tooltips. Try reading them yourself before spewing more misinformation and personal insults.

Mystborn

Eh, splitting hairs here but @Attorneyatlawl‌ is right in his conclusions just slightly wrong in his terminology.

Weapon Damage/Spell Damage is the number on your Character Screen (C) and that is what is reduced by 22%.

Weapon Power/Spell Power is based on two factors:

• Either Weapon Damage or Spell Damage.
• Either Max Magicka or Max Stamina

If an ability uses Weapon Damage you divide the value by 1.9 to get its contribution.

You divide your Max Magicka/Stamina (whichever it uses) by 20 to get its contribution.

So, say you are VR12 with a legendary greatsword (166 Weapon Damage) and 2000 Max Stamina.

Your Weapon Power would be (166/1.9) + (2000/20) = 87 + 100 = 187.

Momentum says it increases your Weapon Power by 10% initially so that would increase your Weapon Power to 206 and result in a full 10% more damage done.

Siphoning Strikes says it reduces your Weapon Damage by 22% so your new Weapon Power would be (166*0.78/1.9) + (2000/20) = 68 + 100 = 168.

As you can see your new Weapon Power of 168 is about 90% of your old Weapon Power of 187, this is the concept Attorneyatlawl was trying to convey, even though he swapped the actual Power/Damage terminology - he is 100% correct in his point that 22% reduced Weapon/Spell Damage does not equal 22% less actual damage done.


Oh, and yes, Biting Jabs does crit based off of you Weapon Crit, not Spell Crit (but its damage is based off of Spell Power and Magicka).

Attorneyatlawl

A good post, @mystborn, I used them interchangeably because the game does in its item descriptions . Semantical sure but it's a good explanation and some may not be familiar with it for sure.

Mystborn

Well not 100% interchangeable because as I pointed out a 10% increase in Weapon Power (from Momentum) is not the same as a 10% increase in Weapon Damage (which would actually cause about a 4 or 5% increase in Weapon Power).

Also, another difference would be I don't think the +55 Weapon Power from Dark Flare would be affected by the Weapon Damage softcap, whereas +Weapon Damage enchants would be if you were overcharged with them.

It's an edge case and my point for posting was to say you were right but my OCD attention to detail means I can't help but clarify minor things - mostly so that other people don't quote them in the future.

Aoifesan

Rammi wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

LOOOOOLLLL

Firstly I don't play a DOT Spec and don't want to so that is invalid. Also you do know that Siphoning attacks reduces dmg output for 22% yes thats 22% and they are nerfing this by reducing the resources you get back in 1.2.

Your post is a wall of inaccuracies where you use builds that are not linked to make counter points. You also pull in vamp to the equation, not every NB is a vamp.

Its an incoherent rant where you make a bunch of assumptions around people builds when the main outcry is all to do with stamina builds and the use of weapons not being effective. I have messed around with my build and tried a bunch of different options and cannot get above 275 dps for the type of gamestyle i wish to play (Bow/DW). I would have to sacrifice the way i want to play to improve that and I'm not willing to do so.

I do agree that NB have good utility but that is about it.

You're doing it wrong. Max Power Extraction, you can hit 9 targets with it and cap it at a 99% weapon damage gain.
That affects both weapon types.

I'm sure you are one of those I must be able to do it all solo too... so for your edification you have two potential openings.
One the Bow AoE followed Immediately by bombar to keep everyone nice and rooted. Power extraction Bombard AoE reign of fire thingy. Win.

For the DW side Volcanic Run, Power Extraction, 10m AoE DE attack, VR, 0m AoE DE attack rinse repeat.

The Bow sequence will net ~400 DPS, the DW ~600-800DPS on 3 mobs. More Mobs in either AoE increase the DPS.

Siphon Strikes increases the resource regain to amazing levels with all the AoE attacks as well. and the last ability can be swallow soul or assasins blade for self heals.

sParkSnare

@Mystborn bringing real/tested data to the party... Glad some things never change. :-)

Attorneyatlawl

Mystborn wrote: »

Well not 100% interchangeable because as I pointed out a 10% increase in Weapon Power (from Momentum) is not the same as a 10% increase in Weapon Damage (which would actually cause about a 4 or 5% increase in Weapon Power).

Also, another difference would be I don't think the +55 Weapon Power from Dark Flare would be affected by the Weapon Damage softcap, whereas +Weapon Damage enchants would be if you were overcharged with them.

It's an edge case and my point for posting was to say you were right but my OCD attention to detail means I can't help but clarify minor things - mostly so that other people don't quote them in the future.

It's just a difference in what words we're using for the terminology, not the effects. The game uses power/damage interchangeably, for example buffing yourself with a Rage glyph that says it adds +17 power simply adds to the Weapon Damage listed on your character sheet, and Momentum just adds to the Weapon Damage on your character sheet by the exact percentage stated as well.

The only edge case you bring up that differs here is Solar Flare/Dark Flare/Solar Barrage being a debuff on the enemy rather than a buff on the player, and that indeed may not count against the attacker's softcap due to that, but that's really not anything to do with the stat or what I was talking about in regards to the nightblade guy complaining about a "22% raw damage debuff" that doesn't exist .

sParkSnare wrote: »

@Mystborn bringing real/tested data to the party... Glad some things never change. :-)

Lol, really?? I thought this was completely common knowledge since it's very easy to see in-game through minor amounts of testing. As they say, "every day I lose more faith in humanity...". I test things before I say them too, unlike most people seem to... and have throughout beta since last July and PTS when it opened as part of the first wave at the beginning of October.

sParkSnare

@Attorneyatlawl‌, lol, really? My comment wasn't a jab at you, I wasn't even thinking about your posts when I wrote that. Nor did I quote you or refer to anything you wrote, so I'm not sure why you apparently feel slighted. My comment was directed at him and only him, and stems from numerous helpful tests he shared on Tamriel Foundry and YouTube prior to game release when I was able to beta test only on weekends (also starting mid-last year) while he was beta testing on the PTS server.

FWIW, what you (or I) may consider common knowledge may or may not actualy be common knowledge. This thread should be proof enough that not everyone has the same working knowledge of the game.

Attorneyatlawl

sParkSnare wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl‌, lol, really? My comment wasn't a jab at you, I wasn't even thinking about your posts when I wrote that. Nor did I quote you or refer to anything you wrote, so I'm not sure why you apparently feel slighted.

Ah, sorry, it's hard to tell trolls from people just remarking nowadays . I thought you were trolling due to the context of when you posted it.