Non-angry, non-bitter, no-insults, non-nerfing thread about class balance

zhevon

Its almost impossible to balance between PvE and PvP - it just is; what generally happens is that folks in one or the other complain about something being OP'd it gets nerfed but it gets nerfed in both. So dynamics for PvE will get messed up by nerfs to make it fair for PvP and vice versa. It has always happened and there is no good way around this dilema except having only PvE or PvP. Even if you had just one or the other - there will always be class balance issues.

tinythinker

TheAmu wrote: »

The problem with this game is, there is only one given situation:

Fight.

All progress in the game is made through fighting. You can't traverse the land without fighting. If you want to focus on crafting you'd better be good at fighting the things that give you the things you need to craft. You also need to be good at fighting to get the skill points necessary to level those crafting skills.

Basically you can "play how you want" so long as you want to fight while you play.

In the end, if you provide only one goal, too many variables becomes unmanageable in trying to achieve balance. If you provide three or 4 goals, you dramatically reduce the number of variables without compromising the options we've already enjoyed.

I don't disagree. Even in the single player versions of The Elder Scrolls I looked for non-combat options to enhance game play such as illusions and charm spells or the various installment's versions of persuasion/intimidation. I think the latter was in mini-game in one of the games. I am all for more content and quest pathing with more options, but I also know that even as it is the game has specific issues which can be addressed in a creative way without simplistic forms nerfing/buffing. I'd like to see that done while waiting/hoping for larger meta-game spanning changes.

Ragekniv

Remove all classes, create one pool of skills and allow free will. Class balance solved!

Meanwhile fix the game stability, the plague of bots and resolve game content issues.

tinythinker

Sindala wrote: »

I remember an old discussion about 'how to balance PvP' from UO days.
We solved it too, much to the distress of the PvP'ers but they couldn't argue with the results.
In PvP every hit by every class....skill....special... ect, does exactly the same damage and takes the same time.
It's all just about looks and style then.

There....PvP problem solved.

Solved for whom I wonder? It's a kind of pyrrhic victory for game balance. I am not sure how many people are going to want to run around with their customized characters in AvA/PvP being unable to rely on the values and effects of abilities they've practiced in PvE. Or being "exactly the same" except for appearance? That really guts the major design premise of ESO, which might be worth it if the solution offered something better than what exists, but what significant value does homogenization offer in return? In any case Cyrodiil has PvE content as well -- the Alliance War isn't a group vs. group arena -- so disentangling the two game elements isn't so simple.

There isn't going to be perfect balance or total symmetry in the class mechanics between AvA/PvP and PvE, but that isn't the goal of the thread. The idea here is to solicit creative, thoughtful, class-themed solutions to specific issues in order to see how many of the worst imbalances can be addressed without resorting to the kinds of simplistic nerfs/buffs that keep causing so much (additional) anger and disagreement among the players.

zhevon wrote: »

Its almost impossible to balance between PvE and PvP - it just is; what generally happens is that folks in one or the other complain about something being OP'd it gets nerfed but it gets nerfed in both. So dynamics for PvE will get messed up by nerfs to make it fair for PvP and vice versa. It has always happened and there is no good way around this dilema except having only PvE or PvP. Even if you had just one or the other - there will always be class balance issues.

Ragekniv wrote: »

Remove all classes, create one pool of skills and allow free will. Class balance solved!

Meanwhile fix the game stability, the plague of bots and resolve game content issues.

Again, speculation about the meta-gaming theory and design for ESO is great, but see the paragraph above starting "There isn't going to be perfect balance or total symmetry in the class mechanics between AvA/PvP and PvE..." I am not against advocating for larger changes to fundamental game design in ESO, but they aren't going to happen any time soon if ever.

On the other hand, simplistic nerfs and buffs that divide the community even more keep happening, as with patches 1.1.2 and 1.1.3. Look at the latest cases of RAAAAGE on the forums today. Such buffs/nerfs may be necessary at times, but there ought to be more to reducing class balance than that. I am advocating for something in between redesigning the basic concept of the game and arguing over which classes/abilities should or shouldn't be given easy nerfs/buffs -- to try to figure out how to alter basic class skills (actives/passives) creatively to lessen some of the more glaring class imbalance issues. To make weaker/broken class elements better in fun ways that enhance tactics and give more value to each existing class. The Talons puzzle and corresponding solution in the original post, while it may not be great, kind of points to what I am getting at.

GreasedLizard

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

Teevesnacks wrote: »

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

To me the biggest problem, in terms of balance, is the DK pyro mage build. It can easily pull off 1.2k+ (I've heard even as high as 2k) sustained single target dps and that's just not something that can be matched by the other classes. It's just hard to see a balance when one of the easiest trials groups consists of half DKs.

I would like to see actual data to back this up because I've "heard" of nightblades sustain 2k+ single target dps

I don't think I've ever heard that from a nightblade. Although to be honest, I've never even seen more than one or two nightblades in the trials.

50% NB in our AA guild runs!

Nazon_Katts

A game that mixes PvE and PvP should utilize two seperate skill mechanics. One skill, but two different effects, depending on wether it's used on a NPC or PC. This way you can balance skills seperately in PvE and PvP. Implementing such a dual system could be rather easily achieved, since you could just tie it to wether a character is in Cyrodiil or not.

Additionally, except for broken and not working skills, I believe that a good portion of class imbalance - at least in PvP - stems from the fact, there's skill lines missing. IIRC, the Thieves Guild was meant to be a part of the core game experience. It could very well be, it's in that skill line you'd find the synergies that apparently are missing for some classes. Even if not, I think it's a better approach to add skills in order to buff synergies, instead of overly buffing a single skill.

The next big factor is attributes and the trickle down effect on, well, everything else that makes and brakes your character. Buff stamina effects, lower stamina costs and you might already see the scales balancing a bit better. Even more so when softcaps were readjusted. Or, for the fan of drastic measures, base all skills on magicka and leave stamina for blocking, dodging and sprinting.

So I don't think it's necessarily the classes or skills that need the most attention, but rather skill lines and synergies, attributes and softcaps.

GreySix

This seems to fit here:

nick-buckleyb16_ESO

Ragekniv wrote: »

Remove all classes, create one pool of skills and allow free will. Class balance solved!

Meanwhile fix the game stability, the plague of bots and resolve game content issues.

I like that idea, but you'd have 5 healers and 9 tanks on the whole server. I chose Templar in character select believing it would be the best healer. Being VR2 and still enjoying my experience just immersing myself in the world, my healing experience so far has been primarily this:

AoE'ing light armor casters running around randomly on world/dungeon bosses and occasionally getting almost one shot, me draining my whole power pool to bring him back up, and then spamming instacast heals as soon as magicka regens just to keep anybody else still alive.

Hopefully that will change once we recruit a few more like minded individuals in their VR ranks so I can do some nice all-guild grouping/healing, and really get a feel for the class. For more information about our helpful, small guild of like-minded adventurers, follow this link >.>:

http://diabolical.guildlaunch.com/index.php?gid=361782

Erlindur

tinythinker wrote: »

Erlindur wrote: »

I'm a firm believer of that most of PvE class problems come from PvP balancing and vice versa. I also think that the solution is already there.

We now have 3 PvP tree lines. Add more. Add for example role trees, like scout, battle mage, combat healer, tank. Have those new trees filled with active and passive (more passive due to skillbar limitations) traits that counter PvE abilities. Finally have those traits only active in PvP.

That approach may ever lead us into more diversity of classes in PvP and somehow de-zerg the game.

I think you and @cjmarsh725b14_ESO‌ are onto a similar idea. It sounds like something really interesting that might get buried in this thread. Would either of you care to start a thread like "New Alliance War Skill Lines to Address PvP/PvE Balance" or something like that? Not that I wouldn't like to see it discussed in this thread, but it seems like it could be a great independent topic as well and might get more attention/traction that way.

The problem is that I rarely PvP right now. I'm somewhat of a completionist and want to finish my PvE progression before going full PvP. My thoughts come from my experiences in PvE and how my class (NB) fares right now. I'm not comfortable discussing PvP abilities in their subforum and frankly my main issue is how PvP balance affects my PvE experience. I you care to follow the train of thought leading me to post in your thread, here's two of my posts in the NB update thread

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/906911/#Comment_906911
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/917558/#Comment_917558

Having said that, I don't believe that you can solve your puzzle without resorting in PvP only, abilities. The issue is too chaotic. Your PvP improvements unbalance PvE. Your test run solution having NBs counter dark talons has huge impact in PvE. You make NBs immune to mob's CC.

The real problem is no matter how good a game's AI is, a human player is usually better. Any abilities you give to humans for countering other humans, is 100% certain that will be abused in the human vs machine PvE. Your only solution is to somehow break PvP and PvE apart.

reggielee

Ragekniv wrote: »

Remove all classes, create one pool of skills and allow free will. Class balance solved!

Meanwhile fix the game stability, the plague of bots and resolve game content issues.

wont work, people will always find an optimal build of the month, post the results of dps meters and like lemmings the less inclined to research their own build will copy it en masse

temjiu

Personally, I love Templars. I love melee builds. I'll speak to that.

Key issues with Templar In my mind are:

1) horrible resource returns. Templars have very few ways outside of weapon/armor builds to recover resources. Add to this the fact that their spells cost more on average then other classes means that they pay a heavier price trying to damage/heal from a class perspective.

2) Stamina builds. this hits all classes, but with Templars having bad resource regen, they get double hit as when the stamina skills fail, a stamina based Templar has a much tougher time using magick skills to compensate, as their base regen is lower then other classes due to NO passives to regen said magick.

so to me the keys are simple.

1) templars need some resource regeneration abilities in their passive trees. tie the regen skills into the trees focus. i.e. Aedric spear gets a stamina regen. Resto gets a magick regen. we don't necessarily need another magic regen ability in the dawns wrath tree...but possibly a cost reduction passive across the board.

We would still pay a heavy price for spell use, but at least we would have ways IN THE CLASS STRUCTURE of regaining that resource. and at early levels, where you have to choose your skills more carefully (they eventually get filled up later, but early you choose), Templar's could pick a path, and know that they would have the resources to fuel that path.

2) Stamina builds. This is more generic, but still falls back to the Templars weakness. Restoring Aura is a fantastic example of a fix for this, but with the stamina skills being so out of balance, RA is barely felt. and since it costs magick to use, works against us in the long run...by the time your out of stamina, your magick resources are probably also low. #1 would help out allot for this, but we also need those stamina skills buffed as well.

so to this idea: stamina based skillsets (2h, DW, S&B) need their costs and damage re-evaluated. damage needs to be buffed slightly across the board, and stamina costs reduced drastically. simple as that. outside of specific skill changes (like the damage shield from cleave needs a buff...uppercuts cast needs to either have a chance to be instant, or be un-interruptable). But that's a different subject (and my thread would be far too long discussing that...i'll create a different post for that).

Other details:

Puncturing Strikes is a quandry. I'd almost rather have the skill simply split up. base skill does the AoE (and make the cone bigger), but NO stun, and no extra damage to target mob. buff the base damage a bit. it really is whimpy.

Take the "cone" morph (that no one uses), and change that to a "Magick cost is reduced, and initial target is stunned and takes 100% extra damage, but area of effect is reduced."

Keep second morph as is. execution effect on all mobs under 25% health.

That way people can either have their AoE and "execution" effect Current morph of choice), but you lose the stun and decent damage on single target, OR have it cheap and stun something. having all of it in one lump is making it almost impossible to balance. split it up, and give us 2 decent choices, instead of one bad one and one obviously almost OP one.

Restoring light tree - the actual skill line isn't bad...but with the resto staff being cheaper, more efficient, and obviously synergizes with everything else that is caster, I'd like a few more synergies in the actual resto tree we have to make it "different" then the resto staff, and viable for us as a class...without making us the "Healing Gods".

the heals already cost more then staff heals, and are less efficient. so instead of buffing the heals (would make us too OP when we had a resto staff in hand), give us some better damage buffs in the passives tree! an example would be:

"Holy might: Restoring Tree spells buff Players personal damage by 5% for 10 seconds after the heal" or something like that. give us a solid reason to use our expensive heals instead of staff heals. AND it would also buff our damage overall, which is sorely needed. anytime we use a heal ( or in this case a resto line skill, like RA), we get a damage buff. This would also help our melee builds, as the go-to skill of choice for maintaining damage (RA) is in the resto tree. we don't necessarily need all the siphoning skills that the NB has (and I don't want to steal their thunder) so cost reductions and damage enhancers would be a solid choice.

Rushed Ceremony - base skill isn't horrible, but its so mana hungry that its better to honestly switch over to resto staff on switch and use one of those spells instead.

So, to make it more attractive, change the morph "Honor the Dead" to give magick back not just on low health players (who really lets group members get that stinking low anyways...its suicide in this game), but make it a magick return anytime it's used....but only works on yourself.

Then it goes from a mana hungry instant heal to either a cheap personal heal, or a nice instant mini group heal...that has a moderate magick cost. This would also help the stamina builds that lack a way to stay alive...we wouldn't have to use half of our magick bar on a heal that keeps us up for at the best one or two hits from a VR mob.

Restoring Aura - not bad...until you play a DK and realize that RA is a poor mans version of dragons blood (and costs just as much). it starts off increasing stamina and health...but anyone who's used DB on their DK can tell you how critical that 30% heal is. so Templars have to have an ADDITIONAL heal on their bar to do the same thing that DB does with one skill. This either needs to be brought up to the level of DB, or its costs reduced drastically.

Also, its morphs need to change. a bigger radius? really? or you get to kill it's regen ability and turn it into a "heal you after you've already killed the mobs who were killing you" ability. doesn't help much when they kill you first. here's what it's morphs should really be:

Radiant Aura: base spell + SEVERELY reduced magick cost (like dirt cheap). Regen is buffed allot initially, but slows down over time, and has longer duration.

Extended Ritual: Still costs magick, but instead of working on only dead corpses, pulls spiritual energy from LIVING TARGETS. adds a small AoE damage effect and transfers that to the caster immediately (this is small...no more then 10% of the players health). the magick costs would keep people from staying alive by spamming it...and you would get SOMETHING instantly to keep you alive while the regen does it's work. regen stays the same.

EDIT: an option to the above Extended Ritual option is to eliminate the Aoe thing and heal thing...keep the stamina regen, but provide a 5% DR buff across the board during it's length. so you have the basic regen, but you add a bit more survivability to the skill that DOESN'T affect other stat caps.

Sorry folks...I could go on forever, but these are a start. Templar simply needs better resource management (magick AND Stamina), and options to reduce costs and/or increase damage.

Ysne58

I like the thought process in the original post. I do believe that there are creative solutions out there that don't involve simlpy nerfing or buffing things. I haven't done much pvp.

As far as that dark talons goes -- perhaps a % to dodge or interupt the attack?

For the nightblade, prolonged agony should do damage while the victim is trapped. It started out that way and was changed during beta. Instead of allowing it to be renewed, only allow it to be cast when the victim is not receiving some kind of DoT. That would deal much better with the opness of that attack than the nerf that was made, which is why that original change was made.

I do not know how that would effect things in pvp, it surely would help in pve.

temjiu

Sindala wrote: »

I remember an old discussion about 'how to balance PvP' from UO days.
We solved it too, much to the distress of the PvP'ers but they couldn't argue with the results.
In PvP every hit by every class....skill....special... ect, does exactly the same damage and takes the same time.
It's all just about looks and style then.

There....PvP problem solved.

Not to double post, but I thought this deserved its own reply. In reality...when you look at the games that best represent PvP "balance"...they are console FPS games where EVERYONE has the EXACT SAME class, with extremely minor variations. This is why no matter what Dev's try and do...PvP and PvE simply don't mix. the only way to really balance them with each other is to NOT balance them with each other...and balance them separately. in PvP skills are totally different then PvE. PvP problems solved.

pecheckler

Templars need an aoe crowd control ability for tanking. BADLY.

Khivas_Carrick

Edited in more at the bottom, may continue to do so as I work out mechanics.

1) Make Restoring Spirit worthy of it's name; Instead of making everything cheaper, make it so it did what it did in the Beta, which was restore 2/4% of magicka and stamina whenever you used a skill. Instead of that however, because that is nuts, make it restore 2/4% magicka and stamina whenever you use a Dawn's Wrath skill only.

2) Increase Two Handed weapon damage and skill effects, i.e the passives scale now.

3) Make Weapon Enchants Proc on every hit, end of story.

4) Make Arcane Fighter simply increase the damage and/or prolong the life of said weapon enchants.

5) DK's Ultimate cannot build back up until the current Ultimate in play has ended. Second, do not let the Ultimates stack, at all. With that in place, you could easily revert the changes made without issue.

6) Nerf Bolt Escape so it costs more each time it's used without letting an arbitrary cool down time pass. Why? it's a free get out of jail card that hurts people and can be spammed, not to mention it's just plain cheap.

7) Leave Night Blades the hell alone.

8.) Lessen the cast time on Templar Heals by like half. Please.

9) make Rushed Ceremony restore 50% of the mana used to cast it if used on a target below 50% HP. Keep that effect for both of it's morphs, but for Honor The Dead, make it so that it restores that amount no matter what HP the target is at.

10) Make Dark Flare a much faster cast please. Hell remove the anti-healing thing and put in place a single target, full damage instant cast option. Oh and change the animation. Takes too long to land on a target sometimes, just make it a giant golden fireball or even a beam of light.

11) Make Spear Shards aim just like a regular aimed spell that has AoE properties instead of a literal AoE from the era of EQ and WoW. That type of aiming has little to no place in this type of game system. Literally, let it do exactly what it does now but work off of highlighted aiming. Please, it'd make that move so much more appealing.

12) Make Sweeping Strikes into a different skill all together because an increased radius is a waste, especially since it doesn't seem to work. Instead make it into an Instant Cast move where all the damage is done all at once, no more having to channel it. And that'd be it, leave it as is. Choice there is Channeled move with drastically higher crit chance or a single target move that's faster to pop off with higher flat damage but little crit chance if any.

13) For armor, Do This:

-Leave Light Armor alone, it's fine.

-For Medium Armor, double the crit chance bonus for wearing Medium Armor, and have it so that it restores a small amount of Stamina Per Stamina Move Spent. Oh and have it increase Stealth Damage.

-For Heavy armor, literally increase every single thing currently on it, like double everything, EXCEPT Juggernaut. Instead for Juggernaut do an offensive version of Resolve; Increase the passive amount of Physical Damage Attacks b X% Per Piece, Increase Weapon Damage by 1/2 Per Piece of heavy Armor Equipped. That would properly bring back the archetype of a brawn driven maniac with a 2Hander and Heavy Armor dealing damage.

14) Nerf Staffs. A lot of issues currently faced in this game isn't so much from class balance issues, but actual severe limitations being faced from their weapons, EXCEPT OF COURSE, Staffs. Staffs are dumb strong, and the best way to fix a lot of problems is to simply scale back their effects by only a little bit.

15) Give Templar's slightly better AoE Tanking ability by simply making Blinding Light easier to obtain. After that, make it so it does damage without the morph and the morphed version have a much higher if not instant blinding/stun rate. Everybody wins with that.

16) Make blocking cheaper, same with Sprinting and Roll dodging. In fact, make Roll Dodging free the first two times then increase Stamina each time there after. That'd also solve part of the issue facing Stamina based Players.

17) Restoring Aura - God damn it this ability sucks as is. Someone here earlier gave a great idea for it and it's morphs, so here goes:

-Restoring Aura - Automatically returns 5% of Stamina to Everyone around the caster and heals them for 10% of their total HP over 10 Seconds.

Radiant Aura - Does what the previous did, but now also restores 5% of their HP as well upon activation.

-Extended Ritual - Does what the previous did, with an additional 1% per corpse used nearby up to 5% extra.

Khivas_Carrick

temjiu wrote: »

Personally, I love Templars. I love melee builds. I'll speak to that.

Key issues with Templar In my mind are:

1) horrible resource returns. Templars have very few ways outside of weapon/armor builds to recover resources. Add to this the fact that their spells cost more on average then other classes means that they pay a heavier price trying to damage/heal from a class perspective.

2) Stamina builds. this hits all classes, but with Templars having bad resource regen, they get double hit as when the stamina skills fail, a stamina based Templar has a much tougher time using magick skills to compensate, as their base regen is lower then other classes due to NO passives to regen said magick.

so to me the keys are simple.

1) templars need some resource regeneration abilities in their passive trees. tie the regen skills into the trees focus. i.e. Aedric spear gets a stamina regen. Resto gets a magick regen. we don't necessarily need another magic regen ability in the dawns wrath tree...but possibly a cost reduction passive across the board.

We would still pay a heavy price for spell use, but at least we would have ways IN THE CLASS STRUCTURE of regaining that resource. and at early levels, where you have to choose your skills more carefully (they eventually get filled up later, but early you choose), Templar's could pick a path, and know that they would have the resources to fuel that path.

2) Stamina builds. This is more generic, but still falls back to the Templars weakness. Restoring Aura is a fantastic example of a fix for this, but with the stamina skills being so out of balance, RA is barely felt. and since it costs magick to use, works against us in the long run...by the time your out of stamina, your magick resources are probably also low. #1 would help out allot for this, but we also need those stamina skills buffed as well.

so to this idea: stamina based skillsets (2h, DW, S&B) need their costs and damage re-evaluated. damage needs to be buffed slightly across the board, and stamina costs reduced drastically. simple as that. outside of specific skill changes (like the damage shield from cleave needs a buff...uppercuts cast needs to either have a chance to be instant, or be un-interruptable). But that's a different subject (and my thread would be far too long discussing that...i'll create a different post for that).

Other details:

Puncturing Strikes is a quandry. I'd almost rather have the skill simply split up. base skill does the AoE (and make the cone bigger), but NO stun, and no extra damage to target mob. buff the base damage a bit. it really is whimpy.

Take the "cone" morph (that no one uses), and change that to a "Magick cost is reduced, and initial target is stunned and takes 100% extra damage, but area of effect is reduced."

Keep second morph as is. execution effect on all mobs under 25% health.

That way people can either have their AoE and "execution" effect Current morph of choice), but you lose the stun and decent damage on single target, OR have it cheap and stun something. having all of it in one lump is making it almost impossible to balance. split it up, and give us 2 decent choices, instead of one bad one and one obviously almost OP one.

Restoring light tree - the actual skill line isn't bad...but with the resto staff being cheaper, more efficient, and obviously synergizes with everything else that is caster, I'd like a few more synergies in the actual resto tree we have to make it "different" then the resto staff, and viable for us as a class...without making us the "Healing Gods".

the heals already cost more then staff heals, and are less efficient. so instead of buffing the heals (would make us too OP when we had a resto staff in hand), give us some better damage buffs in the passives tree! an example would be:

"Holy might: Restoring Tree spells buff Players personal damage by 5% for 10 seconds after the heal" or something like that. give us a solid reason to use our expensive heals instead of staff heals. AND it would also buff our damage overall, which is sorely needed. anytime we use a heal ( or in this case a resto line skill, like RA), we get a damage buff. This would also help our melee builds, as the go-to skill of choice for maintaining damage (RA) is in the resto tree. we don't necessarily need all the siphoning skills that the NB has (and I don't want to steal their thunder) so cost reductions and damage enhancers would be a solid choice.

Rushed Ceremony - base skill isn't horrible, but its so mana hungry that its better to honestly switch over to resto staff on switch and use one of those spells instead.

So, to make it more attractive, change the morph "Honor the Dead" to give magick back not just on low health players (who really lets group members get that stinking low anyways...its suicide in this game), but make it a magick return anytime it's used....but only works on yourself.

Then it goes from a mana hungry instant heal to either a cheap personal heal, or a nice instant mini group heal...that has a moderate magick cost. This would also help the stamina builds that lack a way to stay alive...we wouldn't have to use half of our magick bar on a heal that keeps us up for at the best one or two hits from a VR mob.

Restoring Aura - not bad...until you play a DK and realize that RA is a poor mans version of dragons blood (and costs just as much). it starts off increasing stamina and health...but anyone who's used DB on their DK can tell you how critical that 30% heal is. so Templars have to have an ADDITIONAL heal on their bar to do the same thing that DB does with one skill. This either needs to be brought up to the level of DB, or its costs reduced drastically.

Also, its morphs need to change. a bigger radius? really? or you get to kill it's regen ability and turn it into a "heal you after you've already killed the mobs who were killing you" ability. doesn't help much when they kill you first. here's what it's morphs should really be:

Radiant Aura: base spell + SEVERELY reduced magick cost (like dirt cheap). Regen is buffed allot initially, but slows down over time, and has longer duration.

Extended Ritual: Still costs magick, but instead of working on only dead corpses, pulls spiritual energy from LIVING TARGETS. adds a small AoE damage effect and transfers that to the caster immediately (this is small...no more then 10% of the players health). the magick costs would keep people from staying alive by spamming it...and you would get SOMETHING instantly to keep you alive while the regen does it's work. regen stays the same.

EDIT: an option to the above Extended Ritual option is to eliminate the Aoe thing and heal thing...keep the stamina regen, but provide a 5% DR buff across the board during it's length. so you have the basic regen, but you add a bit more survivability to the skill that DOESN'T affect other stat caps.

Sorry folks...I could go on forever, but these are a start. Templar simply needs better resource management (magick AND Stamina), and options to reduce costs and/or increase damage.

Hey, I listened, and I would do something if I was dev. Instead I made a post with some of the stuff you listed and possible alternatives. Good? Bad? Ugly? Let's work together and get a petition going to send to ZoS or something.

Estivara

The only way to solve the PvE vs PvP dilemma (something is too good in PvP, so it gets nerf'd, and therefore the PvE players complain... and vice versa) is to simply not balance in that way. Just have the skills work differently in PvP vs PvE. Many, many, MANY games do this to good effect.

Dayv

It would make it easier if all skills

Ragekniv wrote: »

Remove all classes, create one pool of skills and allow free will. Class balance solved!

Meanwhile fix the game stability, the plague of bots and resolve game content issues.

I'd happily go with this. I'd do it something like having all current class skills in a pool of specialist lines where you can take 2 of them at 1 skill point per ability/passive. A third specialist line would require 2 skill points per ability/passive. A fourth would require 3 point etc.

LordEcks

Dayv wrote: »

It would make it easier if all skills

Ragekniv wrote: »

Remove all classes, create one pool of skills and allow free will. Class balance solved!

Meanwhile fix the game stability, the plague of bots and resolve game content issues.

I'd happily go with this. I'd do it something like having all current class skills in a pool of specialist lines where you can take 2 of them at 1 skill point per ability/passive. A third specialist line would require 2 skill points per ability/passive. A fourth would require 3 point etc.

This would in effect make the game even worse. Sure, nobody would complain about being underpowered in comparison to other classes, now simply put everyone would have the exact five abilities on their bar because "Website X says this is the best build the game has"

Your bar would look something like this:
Impulse - Fiery Breath - Mage Light - Dark Talons - Bolt Escape - DK Standard

Balance is impossible to achieve because of varying skill levels.
The 20 year MMORPG PVP vet is going to figure out how to exploit that one skill everyone thought was harmless/useless to destroy everyone. (Remember how everyone was saying Vampires utterly suck until they saw one taking on entire armies?)

In comparison Joe Blo on his first RPG can barely solo the nerfed Dolshia fight. Theres no real way to "balance" the experience with these two skillsets in play. One is going to be too powerful while the other feels like the game is just "too hard".

Celuwen

The problem isn't skills, it's synergies. The DK and Sorc classes have amazing synergies. It means that when they do Z skill, they hit the passives of Y, X and sometimes W: occasionally adding in the FG/MG passives, plus the &Preferred Class& passive. The NB and Temp classes have fewer of these and they suffer massively as a result.

The NB class especially needs serious attention. The only real "ZOMG OP" moments they have are down to the Respo/Destro spec, which is the current OP spec of choice. Temps are less broken, but still need tweaking for the same reason.

Zenimax can nerf skills left and right, but it won't help the imbalance that is vastly apparent to all players. They need to tweak (Temps) and overhaul (NB) the synergies so that all players can benefit from it.

I do agree that the "play as you want" ideal needs to either die or be the focus. It isn't true and we all know it. If you don't spec a certain way you're at a disadvantage and in this game that can mean life or death.

rfpalmerb16_ESO

Just do what DAOC eventually had to do : A CC immunity timer on PvP combat That takes care of things like Dark talons.

Natjur

There is only two armor types (Light and Heavy)
There is just two classes (DK and Sorc)
There is only two weapon types (staff and sword/board)

Delete the rest and now you have balance.

Sihnfahl

tinythinker wrote: »

You can't traverse the land without fighting.

There are a few quests in game where you don't have to fight if you don't want to, thanks to the use of Intimidate and Persuade. But, yes, they're few and far between due to the fact the current situation on Tamriel combines an all-out faction war, the Worm Cult and daedric invasion. Most folks' problems will arise from those issues.

In the other ES games, there really wasn't a war going on (Skyrim being more of a low-scale skirmishing, Oblivion was localized against daedra, Morrowind was mostly 'clean-up' work, Daggerfall was likewise a lot of behind-the-scenes political maneuvering and secret cults). So you ended up with lots of fetch quests. Or escorts with a little combat here and there.

I think the latter was in mini-game in one of the games.

Oblivion's Conversation wheel... which, fortunately, they got rid of.

Khivas_Carrick

I miss that convo wheel. But I honestly stand by what I said with the suggestions made previously in this thread. That's how bad off a lot of things are in this game, that many things need fixing.

tinythinker

Celuwen wrote: »

The problem isn't skills, it's synergies. The DK and Sorc classes have amazing synergies. It means that when they do Z skill, they hit the passives of Y, X and sometimes W: occasionally adding in the FG/MG passives, plus the &Preferred Class& passive. The NB and Temp classes have fewer of these and they suffer massively as a result.

The NB class especially needs serious attention. The only real "ZOMG OP" moments they have are down to the Respo/Destro spec, which is the current OP spec of choice. Temps are less broken, but still need tweaking for the same reason.

Zenimax can nerf skills left and right, but it won't help the imbalance that is vastly apparent to all players. They need to tweak (Temps) and overhaul (NB) the synergies so that all players can benefit from it.

I do agree that the "play as you want" ideal needs to either die or be the focus. It isn't true and we all know it. If you don't spec a certain way you're at a disadvantage and in this game that can mean life or death.

Thanks. Yeah, this is kind of what I am getting at and is similar to what other commentors have suggested. Some things may need simplistic nerfs/buffs, but I think many people would be happier if weaker classes simply had more synergies and more things that actively made them interesting as well as viable. Things you really want to play a class to get. You can clearly see these things with some classes, and less so with others.

Sindala

temjiu wrote: »

Sindala wrote: »

I remember an old discussion about 'how to balance PvP' from UO days.
We solved it too, much to the distress of the PvP'ers but they couldn't argue with the results.
In PvP every hit by every class....skill....special... ect, does exactly the same damage and takes the same time.
It's all just about looks and style then.

There....PvP problem solved.

Not to double post, but I thought this deserved its own reply. In reality...when you look at the games that best represent PvP "balance"...they are console FPS games where EVERYONE has the EXACT SAME class, with extremely minor variations. This is why no matter what Dev's try and do...PvP and PvE simply don't mix. the only way to really balance them with each other is to NOT balance them with each other...and balance them separately. in PvP skills are totally different then PvE. PvP problems solved.

Yeah it was a long time ago in UO but the idea behind it still remains.
PvP will Never be balanced.....EVER
It's the old 'Animal Farm' syndrome....
"All chars are equal but some chars are more equal than others".
Meaning, we all no matter who we are want our playstyle and char to be the best and if somebody else can beat us then it has to be because they are over powered ect.
It's just human nature, it will never change and neither will the basics of PvP.

The only way to balance PvP is to make everything the same, so if somebody wins then its just down to luck and we don't start crying about it calling for the nerf stick.
UO is 16 years old now and they have never got PvP right either, it just cant be done without somebody else complaining.

The only thing I can say is if you think it's bad now...wait till the console crowd join us.....my god they can cry and moan and whine.....They are only happy with the 'god mode' turned on.

Head.hunter

I'm not entirely sure what class synergies are, I'm guessing it's how class abilities can interact/be combined with other skill lines to maximize the potential of builds? That's a great idea and I fully support it. They already do this with elemental damage skill lines, but I'm sure tweaking this area would give players more options.

@zhevon‌ agree with that as well, it's not just about finding a balance in one area, if you change one skill line, you have to consider all the pve/pvp scenarios in which it can be applied. The dragon standard nerf seems to be a smart decision, coming from a dk, as it continues to be useful, powerful, but not overused or easily generated.